Crackdown On Bangkok Prostitutes

[chonabot]

How many come for Health Care?  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would imagine that figure would be very low , unless you are referring to Plastic Surgery , in comparison to prices elsewhere ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From the look of the waiting rooms at Bumrungrad, I'd say lots of people come to Bangkok for health care other than plastic surgery. They appear to be mostly Middle Easterners and Sub-Continentals who probably find it hard to come by decent health services in their own countries, followed by Westerners who probably find it prohibitively expensive to come by decent health services in their own countries.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That makes it clearer , I just take Healthcare for granted , coming from the UK.

[Dradam]

How many come for Health Care?  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would imagine that figure would be very low , unless you are referring to Plastic Surgery , in comparison to prices elsewhere ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is actually a figure I know as it is in my own industry. About 600 thousand come to Thailand each year for medical care. Certainly plastic surgery, LASIK, and dentistry are important in the list as the Thai doctors are very skilled in these areas (perhaps better than Western doctors). I have seen some 5,000 Baht nosejobs though and cringe. The best plastic surgeons in Thailand are excellent though.

[chonabot]

That's a lot , do you have any figures that show what countries these people are from?

[Dradam]

That's a lot , do you have any figures that show what countries these people are from?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I work at a high end clinic, so my statistics are probably not similar to the overall distribution of foreigners in Thailand. We have 25% European, 25% North America, and 40% Asian (Singapore, Japan, China, Taiwan, Korean, etc.). The remainder are middle-eastern, australian, south american, african, etc.

I would guess the distribution at Bumrungrad hospital is more middle-eastern, indian, indonesian, malaysian, etc.

Trying to tie this back to the main thread, if the image of Thailand became less of a prostitution hub and more health care oriented perhaps even more people would travel to Thailand for medical care.

Not saying that eliminating prostitution is even a possibility but if it were less blatant perhaps other Thai industries would develop.

[PvtDick]

I think we all agree that it's impossible to wipe out prostitution: it's illegal almost everywhere in the world, yet it can be found almost everywhere.

Even so, I don't think many of us would say that prostitution is a good thing for Thailand (or maybe I'm wrong here?). Sure it brings in some money, but think of the downside:

1. the huge AIDS problem -- undoubtedly significantly prostitution-related -- which costs the country billions and billions of baht every year in lost productivity and health care costs;

2. the social problem -- a million young women and men (don't forget the men) giving up what should be the primes of their lives, when they should be educating themselves, developing skills, starting families and careers, to go into a dead-end "profession" that will leave them jobless, skilless, and (more often than not) money-less by the time they're used up (usually by the age of 30).

3. the associated crime and corruption that always seems to come hand-in-hand with the industry.

Although it can't be wiped out, it can certainly be greatly curtailed by clamping down on the "legit" places where it takes place: massage parlors, go-go bars, hostess clubs, cafes. Part of the reason that so many young people go into the business -- other than the money -- is that it is so comfortable, and there is so little risk of any legal problems. You can work in an airconditioned, semi-respectable place...some of these places must even seem glamorous to country girls -- and unless you're extremely unlucky, never be bothered by the cops.

Take prostitution out of these places and make would-be hookers troll for customers on the streets, plus add the fear/risk of being arrested, and you would definitely see a lot fewer people opting for this lifestyle. In my opinion, of course.

[Dradam]

I think we all agree that it's impossible to wipe out prostitution:  it's illegal almost everywhere in the world, yet it can be found almost everywhere.

Even so, I don't think many of us would say that prostitution is a good thing for Thailand (or maybe I'm wrong here?).  Sure it brings in some money, but think of the downside:

1.  the huge AIDS problem -- undoubtedly significantly prostitution-related -- which costs the country billions and billions of baht every year in lost productivity and health care costs;

2.  the social problem -- a million young women and men (don't forget the men) giving up what should be the primes of their lives, when they should be educating themselves, developing skills, starting families and careers, to go into a dead-end "profession" that will leave them jobless, skilless, and (more often than not) money-less by the time they're used up (usually by the age of 30).

3.  the associated crime and corruption that always seems to come hand-in-hand with the industry.

Although it can't be wiped out, it can certainly be greatly curtailed by clamping down on the "legit" places where it takes place:  massage parlors, go-go bars, hostess clubs, cafes.  Part of the reason that so many young people go into the business -- other than the money -- is that it is so comfortable, and there is so little risk of any legal problems.  You can work in an airconditioned, semi-respectable place...some of these places must even seem glamorous to country girls -- and unless you're extremely unlucky, never be bothered by the cops.

Take prostitution out of these places and make would-be hookers troll for customers on the streets, plus add the fear/risk of being arrested, and you would definitely see a lot fewer people opting for this lifestyle.  In my opinion, of course.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does anyone think that prostitution is good for Thailand? I would say a great many people would argue that it is. Your arguments are quite convincing that it isn't and is in fact quite destructive to the health of the country as a whole. Many of the politicians and even the police profit from it though so it will be here for a while.

Tobacco is an industry that was very powerful in the US for many years. Once it was recognized as unhealthy and that it was causing the US billions of dollars in health care costs, a concerted effort was made to limit its influence. Many politicians were being funded by the industry giants however and it took many years.

[PvtDick]

Can't wait to see the reasons some of the denizens of this board might come up with to show that prostitution might be a good thing for Thailand. Other than self-interest, obviously.

[Tippaporn]

Ah, another advocate for limiting choices of human experience based on their personal values and forcing these unto all the masses while disregarding the right of others to choose for themselves. Another do-gooder who sees only the plight resulting from prostitution and nothing else, which gives all the justification and motivation needed to lead a crusade to fix all of these 'broken' people without ever considering to ask them for their consent to do so. (Ever consider the idea that many of this people do not see themselves as 'broken,' needing your help to 'fix' them up?)

Of course a 'modern' society cannot possibly allow their citizens to make choices for themselves, especially regarding choices that would without question invariably and inevitably lead to demoralization, societal decay and rampant, uncontrollable contamination of all those unwritten noble values (will the person holding the list please make it available for the rest of us?). The masses, lacking the wisdom, among other things, to capably make proper choices must eternally be guided by those who were born with greater blessings and knowledge.

We should all seek 'normal' beliefs, 'normal' values, read 'normal' books and watch 'normal' movies, entertain 'normal' thoughts and 'converse 'normally, live 'normal' lives holding 'normal' jobs with 'normal' relationships and 'normal' families in a 'normal' (substitute 'modern') society so that we could all die of sheer boredom!

Let's all create a world of sameness without any possible variation from the 'norm' (substitute 'good') because we've all come to a unaminous consensus of what is 'good' and what is 'bad' as it applies in all cases and for everyone without exception.

I think you'll come to find that planet earth is inhabited by a solitary and very lonely soul.

In the entire known history of humankind has the absolute obliteration of any potential choice ever taken place? I think the answer is quite obvious. And why do you suppose that is the case? Perhaps because denying desire is an absolute impossibilty?

Do you prefer to have your desires approved of or disapproved of by another? Even judged? Would you allow someone to limit your dreams for you? Would you prefer to have another live your life for you or do you like to tie your own shoelaces? Be honest now!

Or maybe you shouldn't be given the option to prefer your preferences on the above. You might be dangerous if allowed to think on your own! A hazard to everyone else, since they're all completely without control of their lives and therefore highly susceptible to the negative experience you would most certainly force upon them, wittingly or not.

Ending prostitution in any country is certainly a noble goal.

Whose idea of noble? Can you provide a complete definition of noble without the use of other subjective terminology?

It is difficult to convince the world that Thailand is a modern society if prostitution runs rampant.

First of all, what need is there for Thailand to convince the rest of the world about anything? Does Thailand owe it to the rest of the world? Even if the rest of the world were to somehow demand it?

Name me a 'modern' society, including the definition of what modern is? Which nation in the world sets the standard of what society 'should' be? Again, I'll need a definition explaining that ideal. What other nation should Thailand be mimicking? Is Thailand 'broken?' Is Thailand a 'backwards' country that needs Western society to chart it's moral course for it and place it on the 'right' track? In what ways does this country need to change in order to be accepted among it's peers? To be exactly as they are perhaps?

The politicians aren't actually interested in ending prostitution anyway.

Aside from having to change their own values before they can preach them to others they may, deep down, not believe in the cause to begin with.

The only real way to fight prostitution is to instill deep-seeded values into children at a young age.

Whose values? Do you have children? Would you like to have someone instill their values into them? And how do you instill values in children? By talking about them or by living them?

Imagine trying to get an entire country to first agree on what values are appropriate and applicable in all cases and then changing themselves to live those values, which needs to happen or the kids will quickly see that mom and pop are only talking about a one-way street here. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander, right? Right?. Can you fathom what the chances of that occuring are? Is this truly a viable solution? Has anyone given thought to exactly how this would work?

It is a difficult world they live in.  The pressure is often overwhelming.

Yes, money is happiness. And happiness can only be purchased. And since most Thais would be classed as 'poor' then this is why Thai society as a whole is a very unhappy society. I'm sure you've noticed that 'fact.' It's rare that I hear laughter in this country!

You seem to have an extremely good grasp of what the daily conditions are for Thai women on the whole.

Although, Thailand could always try the Western approach of correcting social problems; throw money at it. Lots and lots of money. Mountains of money. And yet still there's not enough money to fix the problem permanently. It's not the results that matter, though. It's all about the effort.

And why stop with free education and free books? Simply buy them all Cinderalla customes and foot the bill for their lifestyle. This is what many 'modern' societies practice. Help people who are not seeking your help and don't be surprised when you're being taken advantage of.

They are living a life they are taught is evil and sinful and will result in pain and torture in their next life.

Sounds like someone is selling some very bogus merchandise. Who would teach the truth of such an idea? Only those who believe it and have come to regard it as absolute truth and then feel compelled that others should believe as they do in order to get those people to change and live lives that are more pleasing to them so that they don't have to view these terrible things anymore and if they then are no longer subjected to this type of exposure then, and only then, will they finally be able to find their happiness. Whew!

If you've ever been married to someone who can't seem to be happy, ever, unless you change then you'll have an inkling of what the above means.

Of course, people will also sell that philosophy with true compassion and in the vein of trying to help someone alleviate their hardships. The rationale does follow that since the occupation is the root cause of all their miseries then the occupation itself must be to blame and inherently be evil. Better trouble-shooting skills may be required here.

It is easy to point the finger and try to blame others for problems in society.

Yes, the predominant 'value' here is that while your blessings are certainly always of your own doing your problems never have anything to do with you and are always the result of what someone else happens to be choosing for themselves.

Bring on more lawsuits! Pay me a king's ransom to alleviate my pain and suffering for which I am not to blame. If nothing else, please pass more laws to prevent people from doing things that I'm not happy with so that I can be happy. Make the world change so that I don't have to expend the effort to change myself.

It is more difficult to be part of the solution.

Saving the world is an enormous task indeed. Still waiting for someone to step up to the plate in that arena.

Problems in society cannot be solved in a single day.

Or a week, or month, or year, or in all of eternity. At least not when what you've identified as the problem isn't really the problem at all.

Certainly we must decide what societal ills are most dangerous and try to contain those first.  Perhaps prostitution is not the first problem in society that must be fixed.

Good strategy! Let's have a poll and come to a consensus. We'll draft and pass an endless litany of laws based on our values and demand that the masses conform. The question then is: if the masses transgress, or when they transgress since it's inevitable that they will, should we kill them or just jail them for their evils? Or maybe we should crucify them in Pattaya? I happen to have someone very willing and mentally qualified in mind for the job!

I don't mean to be facetious out of spite here, but rather with a great deal of humor. I think it's certainly commendable when people have visions of a better world, as I do, and I don't mean to slant you for what you feel and what you believe to be well-intentioned. From your post it is evident that you are obviously a very good and caring soul.

The point I wish to make is that throughtout humanity the overriding solution for every perceived problem imaginable has always been to try to control the thoughts, behavior, and actions of others as a means to alleviate and eradicate from this world misery, suffering, and even death And as importantly control is used as a means to force people to behave and act in a way that brings happiness and benefit strictly to one's self. Folks, it's never worked so far!!! Yet the same old solution is advocated, instituted and enforced over and over and over again with the same old end results. History truly is repetitive.

What if the real solution were to be found in allowance? Given that we all believe that we have freedom of choice as a birthright, and given that no one in their right mind would want another to provide their choices for them then isn't the only logical conclusion to be drawn from these premises that alowance is an absolute necessity in finding a long term solution?

And hasn't history repeatedly shown that suppression can only lead to revolt, whether covert or overt and on whatever scale? Has anyone ever conquered a free people with everlasting success? Of course not. The human soul eternally triumphs. The soul seeks eternal expression and will not and cannot be denied.

It's time to look for solutions elsewhere, down avenues you may have never considered that answers could be found. One may not always know what to do, or one may not in the present moment know what the answers may be or where they lie, but at least one does know which answers don't work so one could at least cease in trying to make the unworkable work. Face it, a square peg does not fit in a round hole. You can stop beating your head against the wall.

Allowance is a solution. And it's the only solution. Please don't take my word for it. I would certainly expect people to explore it for themselves. It requires firsthand knowledge. And seeking true answers following that path will take you places and enlighten you as you can little imagine! Have a pleasant journey! (I mean that with uttermost sincerety.)

[igotworms]

Tippaporn....

I admire your efforts, though such posts often fall on deaf ears, or completely over the thick skulls.

As for prostitution...

The only solution is to completely regulate it through government control. Legalise it in certain areas, strictly moderate the health concerns and tax the bloody jesus out of it. But, in a society and land such as Thailand, such measures will never take place. The government, police, business elite, etc. will always look the other way while they fill their pockets.

[Dradam]

Tippaporn...

Your message was very well written but it lacks significant logic.

Allowance is certainly not the best solution to a problem. By definition a problematic situation must be resolved in order for progress to occur. In fact, allowance is perhaps the worst option. There is no progress as the situation remains. The difficulty persists with no attempt to improve.

Where does allowance end?

Should theft be allowed?

Should murder be allowed?

Should corruption be allowed?

A line must be drawn somewhere.

Anything that is dangerous to a society must be limited to some degree.

That decision of where to draw the limit is often difficult to make but it is a coward who refuses to make a decision and a tyrant who draws the line too strictly.

Should we limit the number of MacDonald restaurants that are pouring fat engorged foods into society, causing obesity, and costing society billions in medical care and productivity costs?

Should we prevent smoking for the same reasons?

What about alcohol?

Prostitution clearly damages society. I don't think that can be questioned. There are reasons that it is illegal.

You are simply advocating amorality. In your effort not to force your values on other you are pushing for a world devoid of morals. I don't actually think you would want to live in that world. It would be chaos.

Where to draw the line? Everyone would like to draw it right below the level that they themselves can endure. Why not draw the line above you and force yourself to improve?

Just a thought.

[kat]

Good and thoughtful comments, all, but Tippaporn, I do disagree with you on at least one point.

Throwing money at problems is not really a Western problem (but no doubt, we do have our problems). For that you do not have to look any further than the current PM of Thailand.

[Papa]

I hope Thai officials do read those posts, they will then understand the cause of the problem. My opinion is:

We foreigners created prostitution at the first place by offering Thai's money they could never make that easy by working regurarly jobs. For example a standard price for one night with a Thai is around 1000-1500 Bht; when if the Thai was just working she/he would make around 6000-10000 Bht/month on a six days week, 8to 10 daily. If you do the Maths you will see that that 6 customers equal a full months salary and they can sleep for the rest of the month!

To get out of this:

a) Thai goverment should help Thai's get free college education, including free books! Yes, there are a lot of Thai's who can't afford buying their own books and their farmer parents most likely don't want them educated, they want them on the working on the farm!

We foreigners must STOP being SO CHEAP and not offer them money for sex. We're the ones to be blamed for prostitution, especially the "savors" foreigners who take care of "poor" Thai's, for the "Thai's" good! The biggest lie ever! Them are just the cheapest of all! Can't get laid and use their little money (because if they had more they would stay at their countries), to CORRUPT Thai's. Especially all these DISGUSTING old men who makes me want to puke everytime I go to Pattaya or BKK. How much of a low estime do U guys have? No one can like you with out your money? NO ONE??? Going the easy way and have sexual partners which you know that they feel disgusted by your touch??? How low is that? Do U deserve that???? Don't U deserve someone who would appreciate U as you are? What's wrong with U? Just try it!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello filippos,

You talk of eductaing Thais, but you must educate yourself regarding prostitution

in Thailand and whole of South East Asia. I can recommend many books and

can quote many WHO figures if you wish. The Truth of the matter is Pattaya, Patong and BKK are drops in the ocean when we consider the home grown

prostitution problem.

You are quite self righteous putting down the Thais wanting a better life and

despising those that try to help. Have you ever lived in desperate poverty

if not who are you to judge the Thais, I am sure if you were poor you wouldn't

be too proud accept money from foriegners!

[DaveYo]

Listen to all of you here. You people act like your Gods and you have to have a stinking government dictate your morals and logic and of course your way of life.

None of you and I mean none of you understand what life really is all about. Some of you speak of prostitution and Ill wills and vices on this planet are ingrained into your kids. I can laugh at all of you because you do not realize many of you include religion into their lives right from the beginning because it is you people who think of what you do is right and it is moral.

First of all Prostitution has been around since "Man began to understand the meaning of urges that grow unexpectantly down south" Women began to understand once they got interested in its symbol of pro-creation and saw how big they can become.

Now prostitution began at this stage of life and has until now become ingrained into our society and will continue to do so as long as the almighty dollar or precious rock dictates it.

Pssssssssssst by the way you can never tell who among you is the secret girl who walks in the night. It can be your best friend, neighbor or some member of your family or even your co-worker and presto, what you got you can get if your not so naive and is smart.

So let it be cause it is part of life.

Daveyo

[PvtDick]

I never said that prostitution shouldn't be made legal. I have conflicting feelings on that point: as bad as prostitution is for Thailand, I do believe that consenting adults' behavior should be as free as possible.

Anyway not a single one of my reasons why prostitution is bad for Thailand involved anything to do with morality whatsoever. In fact, I do not believe prostution is bad for ethical or moral reasons. It is simply a very bad for society as a whole for economic and social reasons.

I'm still waiting to hear a reasonable reason why prostitution is good. Who here would tell their 17 or 18 year-old daughter (or son) that they should be considering a career in selling themselves?

[Tippaporn]

Tippaporn....

I admire your efforts, though such posts often fall on deaf ears, or completely over the thick skulls.

As for prostitution...

The only solution is to completely regulate it through government control.  Legalise it in certain areas, strictly moderate the health concerns and tax the bloody jesus out of it.  But, in a society and land such as Thailand, such measures will never take place.  The government, police, business elite, etc. will always look the other way while they fill their pockets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, igotworms. No doubt that my posts will never penetrate the average skull. Mai pen rai. But I speak more to the heart than the mind. And the message is received regardless of whether the mind is accepting.

Although, I was pleasantly surprised by filippos's response. The kid shows he still has some elasticity of the brain. May his mind never coagulate as happens to so many people.

It may seem odd yet in truth I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I pick and choose for myself, same as anybody and everybody, yet maybe with greater discrimination. Others' choices meet with mine as long as they're alike. If not, they go their way and I go mine. Simplistic, but it is, and simplicity has vast beauty.

As I said, though it's a little known fact, the world doesn't need saving; not by me or not by anyone else. It's perfectly fine the way it is. If my posts touch a few hearts then fine. If not, all's well just the same.

But I do agree with your thoughts on legalizing it, accepting the notion of prostitution as a legitimate outlet for the expression of sexual desire (same as homosexuality), and perhaps regulating it just as any other business.

I do believe a large part of the resistance to the idea of prostitution comes from worst case aspects which at times become exposed publicly. The horridness of these cases is accentuated to the degree that it gives the appearance that these cases are utterly prevalent. Well being always exists more than not. Thank God the world isn't truly what it is portrayed as so often in newscasts, eh?

Yet within every aspect of life you can find horror stories, be it relationships, business, war, you name it. How many cases of child abuse exist? Do you then hear people crying out for the illegalization of propagation? Of course not. Substitue any other life issue that has the potential for perversion if you'd like. Yet these seemingly separate issues and instances of perversion have great similarities at their core.

The idea of equating sin and prostitution has deep roots, no doubt. Yet the concept is equally distorted, and I would say even moreso. There is no real substantiation for lumping prostitution together with sin and then calling them one and the same.

The issue of marraige and fidelty play their role, too, in giving prostitution a bad name. I won't comment on the distortions surrounding those subjects, though.

And then there's the idea of sex itself. Thoughts surrounding sex are as varied as the species on this planet. Some find sex absolutely pleasureable (I think that would be a majority) yet many, as inconceivable as it sounds, would view sex as downright 'dirty.' And you'll find every conceivable attitude inbetween.

This world is about variety and diversity. It's time people accepted that variety and diversity are very, very good things and quit trying to limit choices due to their personal preferences or ideas, ideals, morales, nobleness or whatever. It's futile.

Yet there's always the question, or fear would be the more apt term, that if people were allowed to do as they pleased the world be in total chaos. Try driving in Thailand. It is without a doubt total, organized chaos. Yet people find their way to where they're going, and the vast majority do so safely. Personally, I love driving in this country. And I see less accidents here than I've witnessed in the States.

Of course, even with heavily regulated and enforced traffic laws, as they exist in America for instance, it still does not prevent "mishaps" from occurring. Does anybody ever wonder why? Yet people continue to take enforcement and prevention to ever and ever greater heights. Won't be long before they'll be placing video cams in your homes. (Well, I don't truly believe that will happen anytime soon, but they are showing up steadily in public places.)

Well, as I mentioned in a previous post, I enjoy Thailand for it's freedoms. I encourage Thailand to remain free. The less laws and the less regulations the better in my book. And may Thailand never adopt some of the existing Western ideas and values in an attempt to become a 'modern' country. You'll find me packing my bags.

[meom]

Since prostitution is here to stay I would'nt mind some role reversal whereby women take more control in their sex drives and start to frequent male prostitutes on a larger scale than they do now.

Although I'm way over 18 I would have no problem to become a prostitute as long as it pays the bills.

[PvtDick]

Wow, Tippaporn. You sure are long-winded!

I don't think anyone here has suggested anything to do with sin or morality. Where you're getting that, I don't know.

As far as Thailand emulating Western values, blah blah...one of the biggest problems with prostitution in Thailand is the fact that it IS illegal; the "tolerance" you refer to is not a tolerance which comes from the people (ask any Thai person and they will tell you that prositution is not a good thing), but comes from CORRUPTION. Prostitution is tolerated by law enforcement because they are paid such royal sums by the organized crime that run it.

Legalization would certainly take care of this problem: why would anyone bother to pay someone off to engage in a business that was legal? It would also, hopefully, take care of some of the health-related problems that exist in its current state -- through education and regulation (I know you dislike government controls of any type, but I think even you would agree that health controls on legal prostitutes would be a good thing?).

What legalization wouldn't fix is the heavy social costs of young men and women using up ten years of their prime (as that is about the longest anyone is in this career) to be prostitutes instead, as I and I think everyone else here would advise their own kids, of using those years to study, develop skills, begin a career, start a family.

Again, though, as long as we're talking about adults, adults should have the right to throw away their lives as they see fit. I do agree with that.

[igotworms]

Tippaporn...

I agree with with most of your thoughts, except for your perception of Thai traffic (almost had 2 accidents today within 25 minutes....and this happens often).

This is the great debate, prostitution, gambling and drugs are an everyday reality world-wide. In most places, these vices so to speak, are illegal, but yet they still exist. Can they be totally and effectively removed from the planet? Of course not. This battle will never be won. We all are aware of that.

However, I believe many people argue the fact, that even though prostitution is illegal here, as it is in most of our home countries, the powers to be have let it spread openly and abundantly. In countries like Canada, USA, England, etc., these legal activities are less visible and definitely not thriving as it is here. The government claims to be clamping down on prostitution, but in most areas no visible change has taken place. It is obvious the central government has no control over it's provinces, and seems to be lacking the means to effectively manage their supposed policies and initiatives, however weak and meaningless they likely are.

In time, most Western countries will regulate prostitution. They have no other option. The health of their society depends on it. However, the federal, provincial and local Thai governments haven't the means nor the will to protect their people. This is still frontier country. The elite families, mafia, government, and law enforcement of Thailand seem to function corruptly and freely without consequence. Dark influence is deeply engrained within the fabric of Thai society. The fate of prostitution and corruption in Thailand are dependent on whether the Thai people will continue to accept the current norm, or finally wake up from their oblivious slumber and rebel against the ruling class.

[igotworms]

Wow, Tippaporn.  You sure are long-winded!

I don't think anyone here has suggested anything to do with sin or morality.  Where you're getting that, I don't know.

As far as Thailand emulating Western values, blah blah...one of the biggest problems with prostitution in Thailand is the fact that it IS illegal; the "tolerance" you refer to is not a tolerance which comes from the people (ask any Thai person and they will tell you that prositution is not a good thing), but comes from CORRUPTION.  Prostitution is tolerated by law enforcement because they are paid such royal sums by the organized crime that run it.

Legalization would certainly take care of this problem:  why would anyone bother to pay someone off to engage in a business that was legal?  It would also, hopefully, take care of some of the health-related problems that exist in its current state -- through education and regulation (I know you dislike government controls of any type, but I think even you would agree that health controls on legal prostitutes would be a good thing?).

What legalization wouldn't fix is the heavy social costs of young men and women using up ten years of their prime (as that is about the longest anyone is in this career) to be prostitutes instead, as I and I think everyone else here would advise their own kids, of using those years to study, develop skills, begin a career, start a family.

Again, though, as long as we're talking about adults, adults should have the right to throw away their lives as they see fit.  I do agree with that.

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

[Heng]

The fate of prostitution and corruption in Thailand are dependent on whether the Thai people will continue to accept the current norm, or finally wake up from their oblivious slumber and rebel against the ruling class.

Rebel against the ruling class? All the "have nots" seem to want...... is "to have."

[chonabot]

None of you and I mean none of you understand what life really is all about. 

So let it be cause it is part of life.

Daveyo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Welcome back DaveYo! Shame about the generalisation though mate.

Would you say the current economic situation Ethiopia should be "let be" ?

[stroll]

Sooner or later people will need to realize that it's no one's business to limit the choices of experience in this world.  Prostitution is just a single issue of endless other issues that have at their basis the same concept of allowing or disallowing others the right to pursue their own freedoms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately some choices of experience create victims, damage others or limit others' choices. Where is the line? Do you agree that child prostitution, forced prostitution and injury and mutilation are beyond legitimate choice? Which choices are legitimate? What is 'free' will? Does a 20 year old heroin addict agreeing to be gangraped in front of a camera exercise her free will, do the ones participating engage in an act of consenting adults which is nobody's business?

I'm still waiting to hear a reasonable reason why prostitution is good.  Who here would tell their 17 or 18 year-old daughter (or son) that they should be considering a career in selling themselves?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My daughter has the advantage of a variety of choices as to what to do with her life while securing survival and some comfort. I advice her against selling herself, be it through prostitution, marrying somebody for security, wasting her prime years in a job she doesn't like, or anything else. In some families the choices are rather limited, and within the legal and cultural framework of some societies, a career in prostitution is a viable option.

Again, though, as long as we're talking about adults, adults should have the right to throw away their lives as they see fit.  I do agree with that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People don't throw their lives away, they make choices as they see fit. This is where your morality comes in, although you keep denying this.

[PvtDick]

Sooner or later people will need to realize that it's no one's business to limit the choices of experience in this world.  Prostitution is just a single issue of endless other issues that have at their basis the same concept of allowing or disallowing others the right to pursue their own freedoms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately some choices of experience create victims, damage others or limit others' choices. Where is the line? Do you agree that child prostitution, forced prostitution and injury and mutilation are beyond legitimate choice? Which choices are legitimate? What is 'free' will? Does a 20 year old heroin addict agreeing to be gangraped in front of a camera exercise her free will, do the ones participating engage in an act of consenting adults which is nobody's business?

I'm still waiting to hear a reasonable reason why prostitution is good.  Who here would tell their 17 or 18 year-old daughter (or son) that they should be considering a career in selling themselves?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My daughter has the advantage of a variety of choices as to what to do with her life while securing survival and some comfort. I advice her against selling herself, be it through prostitution, marrying somebody for security, wasting her prime years in a job she doesn't like, or anything else. In some families the choices are rather limited, and within the legal and cultural framework of some societies, a career in prostitution is a viable option.

Again, though, as long as we're talking about adults, adults should have the right to throw away their lives as they see fit.  I do agree with that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People don't throw their lives away, they make choices as they see fit. This is where your morality comes in, although you keep denying this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know why people keep bringing morality into it. I have never injected a shred of morality into this, and for the record I do not think it is "immoral" to sell sex for money. Prostitution is a poor choice of career for a number of reasons, none related to morality.

[PvtDick]

My daughter has the advantage of a variety of choices as to what to do with her life while securing survival and some comfort. I advice her against selling herself, be it through prostitution, marrying somebody for security, wasting her prime years in a job she doesn't like, or anything else. In some families the choices are rather limited, and within the legal and cultural framework of some societies, a career in prostitution is a viable option.

I think the stereotype of girls being driven into prostitution by poverty is pretty much just that -- a stereotype. Greed, laziness, and short-term thinking are more of a factor in most cases, I'd be willing to bet. Everyone has choices.

[Khutan]

I agree with filippos that the way to go would be to ban all foreigners from Thailand. This would solve 99% of the countries woes.

Ok;

Well then how about I close my factory, (now > 250 Thai employees, being paid over market wages....) send the workers back home - to no jobs and stop generating export income for Thailand.

The amount of money I have pulled into this country in the last yeas has been over 12m Baht. All my certificates of origin confirm the goods are Thai, so I think I am contributing.

The dormitory upstairs where most people sleep, you are not permitted to leave or enter the factory after 10:00 pm. Why, so they don't go to Sukhumvit or wherever, ok, go and have dinner, see a movie but you want to live in the factory for free, there are rules.

Do you think that would help Thailand, if I close up and go home, if so can you tell me.

[Ijustwannateach]

Meom, as many of the gay forum members could no doubt tell you, male prostitution is alive and well in Thailand.... unfortunately for us, it often comes in "stealth mode"- they lie to you in the evening, lie with you at night, and then screw you in the morning.

"Steven"

[stumonster]

in relation to the statements on career choices

Pimp & stripper on NZ career wish-list

AFP

November 14, 2004

WELLINGTON: Students at a New Zealand secondary school have listed prostitution and drug dealing on a list of desirable careers.

The job list, which also includes stripping and pimping, appeared in the year book at Kawerau College in the central North Island.

The book featured students' hopes about what they would like to do when they leave school and included suggestions such as brothel worker, drug lord, dope dealer, dope packer, stripper, pimp, beneficiary, druggie and "living on the street".

The Society for the Promotion of Community Standards, said Saturday that the legalising of prostitution in New Zealand earlier this year had created a climate in which students viewed prostitution, pimping and stripping as attractive and viable forms of legal work.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/commo...5E29677,00.html

[dr_Pat_Pong]

in relation to the statements on career choices

Pimp & stripper on NZ career wish-list

AFP

November 14, 2004

WELLINGTON: Students at a New Zealand secondary school have listed prostitution and drug dealing on a list of desirable careers.

The job list, which also includes stripping and pimping, appeared in the year book at Kawerau College in the central North Island.

The book featured students' hopes about what they would like to do when they leave school and included suggestions such as brothel worker, drug lord, dope dealer, dope packer, stripper, pimp, beneficiary, druggie and "living on the street".

The Society for the Promotion of Community Standards, said Saturday that the legalising of prostitution in New Zealand earlier this year had created a climate in which students viewed prostitution, pimping and stripping as attractive and viable forms of legal work.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/commo...5E29677,00.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A career in Holesale

[stroll]

My daughter has the advantage of a variety of choices as to what to do with her life while securing survival and some comfort. I advice her against selling herself, be it through prostitution, marrying somebody for security, wasting her prime years in a job she doesn't like, or anything else. In some families the choices are rather limited, and within the legal and cultural framework of some societies, a career in prostitution is a viable option.

I think the stereotype of girls being driven into prostitution by poverty is pretty much just that -- a stereotype. Greed, laziness, and short-term thinking are more of a factor in most cases, I'd be willing to bet. Everyone has choices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I argue that, whether intentionally or not, a career in prostitution for sections of Thai society is a viable choice with a different set of apparent pros and cons than other options, by socio-cultural circumstances. Looking at government policies and behaviour of authorities, combined with an investigation of interest and financial benefits derived, one might well suspect that there is indeed an effort 'to drive girls into prostitution'.

This is not to say that every prostitute is a victim or chooses out of desparation, but I pose the question what is free will, and how are choices made?

[Doctor John]

If I was a poorly educated girl with no decent employment prospects and my Parents where poor and getting older, and I have watched them struggle to make a living on the farm with very little return. and my prospects where such that I would be following them into same poverty trap.

I would be looking for a Farang!!!!

And as so many Farangs are willing to come to Thailand and buy houses for girls, buy gold, motorcycles, Pick-ups, trips abroad, good clothes, etc etc....why the fux not?

Who could blame me.

Farangs hit the Bars when they come to Thailand, so where would I go, a library, bookshop, shoeshop, bakery............Or a Bar?

I would be looking for a Farang with money that would take care of me and my family. For that I will stay with a man 20 - 30 years older than me, everyones a winner.