History Of Thai Script...

[desi]

Out of curiousity, I'm trying to locate either detailed photos (in books or websites) or actual samples (in museums) to compare the three recognised Thai scripts.

• The Sukhothai Script (invented by King Ramkhamhaeng in 1283 A.D.)

• The King Li Thai Script (based on the Sukhothai script and came about in 1357, during the reign of King Li Thai).

• The King Narai script (the present day Thai script, it appeared in 1680 during the reign of King Narai).

I've looked in second hand book stores, Asia Books and Kinokumiya (Bangkok) for books on the history of the Thai script. I've even asked staff at both Asia Books and Kinokumiya to check in their computers. No luck.

This blog has a rant... pointing here.

I've looked in different books to read up on the museums in BK, but none come out and say they have samples of the three scripts.

Suggestions? Known museums? Chula Uni? Professional publications?

I'm heading out Monday / Tuesday to look at different museums. But, BK is a big town so if anyone can help, it'd be great.

[Rikker]

You can find decent resources for this on the web. In particular, the Sirindhorn Anthropology Centre's sub-site จารึกในประเทศไทย 'Inscriptions of Thailand'. It covers more than just Thai script, because of course there were inscriptions in Thailand in other languages long before there was Thai script.

There's this page on their site with the different scripts organized in tables, makes for relatively easy comparison.

There are 14 scripts they list. I don't know if you can read Thai, so here are direct links corresponding to that page from left to right, top to bottom.

(Reminder: Dates are in Buddhist Era (B.E.) We're currently in the 26th Century of the Buddhist Era, which is 543 years ahead of A.D. aka C.E.)

Brahmi script, Gupta-era (10th Century B.E.)

Pallava script (11-12th Century B.E.)

Post-Pallava script (13-14th Century B.E.)

Old Khmer script (15-18th Century B.E.)

Old Mon script (17-18th Century B.E.)

Kavi script (18th Century B.E.)

Sukhothai Thai script (19-20th Century B.E.)

Ramkhamhaeng script (1935 B.E.)

Sukhothai Khmer script (20th Century B.E.)

Tham Lanna script (20-24th Century B.E.)

Fakkham script (20-24th Century B.E.)

Ayutthaya Thai script (20-23rd Century B.E.)

Thai Noi script (21-24th Century B.E.)

Tham Isan script (22-24th Century B.E.)

Each link contains a couple of images that you can then click on for a larger resolution version.

I believe these tables are scanned from the จารึกในประเทศไทย five-volume series published (in Thai) by the Fine Arts Department. They also have a book that is filled with nothing but tables comparing the different scripts.

In theory, you can buy them directly from the Fine Arts Department in the National Library compound. But when I went to do just this last year, they were suspicious of me for some reason, and I had to go hide out in the car and have my wife buy them. They gave her a printout of a list of books, which she then brought to me, and she went back and got the books.

At the time, the five volume set was running low, and they only had two or three of the volumes left. The comparative book was in ready supply, though, and came in normal size "student" version and an enlarged (A3-size pages) "teacher" version (I bought both--the contents are identical).

The Sirindhorn Anthropology Centre site really contains most of what you'd hope to find in books though, since they've rather exhaustively compiled it from all the available books. I've visited the small team doing it, and they have access to the excellent library at the SAC.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

Excellent! That's exactly what I was trying to find today.

Have you heard about this book?

I have a beautifully illustrated book about the origin and developmentof the Thai script by well-known writer Sujit Wongthet (สุจิตต์วงษ์เทศ), published in 2005.

It mentions the author, but not the title. I googled, but, no luck.

Thank you very much for taking the time to share this information. Especially the individual links. You are right, my Thai is not up to that level at all.

[Rikker]

lol.. that's my comment on Language Hat's blog (and my blog he was posting about). สุจิตต์ วงษ์เทศ is the author, the title is อักษรไทยมาจากไหน. It's a small book, both in dimensions and length. Published by Matichon. Here's the link to its page on SE-ED.

Other titles in Thai include ๗๐๐ ปีลายสือไทย "700 Years of Thai Writing", which was published in the early 90s, as I recall. Might be out of print, but that one's bound to be in most university libraries.

I'd also recommend the Siam Society library for materials in English.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Rikker

[Jay_Jay]

I know you're looking for real specimens - I have a book that I bought years ago called หลักการภาษาไทย by กำชัย ทองหล่อ that has quite a good section on many different scripts that have been used in and around Thailand ... and scripts that those were based on. Scripts that it covers include:

Phoenecian

Brahmi

Sanskrit - Pahlava

Devanagari

Mon

Burmese

Khmer c พ.ศ. 1100

Khmer c พ.ศ. 1800

Khmer current

Lao

Lao (Alternative)

Thai - พ.ศ. 1835

Thai - พ.ศ. 1900

Thai - พ.ศ. 2223

Thai - Current

Thai Sign Language Alphabet

Thai Braille

As a reference to reading the scripts, it's ok.

[Rikker]

The correct title is หลักภาษาไทย, if I'm not mistaken. I have that one on my shelf as well. Fairly easy to find at bookstores. First published in the early 50s.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

lol.. that's my comment on Language Hat's blog (and my blog he was posting about). สุจิตต์ วงษ์เทศ is the author, the title is อักษรไทยมาจากไหน. It's a small book, both in dimensions and length. Published by Matichon. Here's the link to its page on SE-ED.

Hah! Small world (so you are THAT Rikker. Very nice).

Your description convinced me that I just had to track it down! (it's at a great price too)

Other titles in Thai include ๗๐๐ ปีลายสือไทย "700 Years of Thai Writing", which was published in the early 90s, as I recall. Might be out of print, but that one's bound to be in most university libraries.

That one also looks good so I'll see about getting over there this week (or ask a friend at Chula to source it for me).

I'd also recommend the Siam Society library for materials in English.

Glad you reminded me. I need to make sure to get to the Siam Society tomorrow (or Tuesday).

Again, thanks!

[desi]

I know you're looking for real specimens - I have a book that I bought years ago called หลักการภาษาไทย by กำชัย ทองหล่อ that has quite a good section on many different scripts that have been used in and around Thailand ... and scripts that those were based on.

Thanks. You are correct. I'd like to be able to print them out (or scan straight to a printer) to look at side by side.

I'm obvoiusly not going for an academic study of the subject, but it's captured my curiosity. I'm a designer and the Thai script has a certain artistic appeal.

With such an attractive script, I thought there'd be an amazing coffee table book on the subject...

Yet when I googled around, all I could find were very brief articles (in English of course) that didn't even scratch the surface. I knew about the links to Brahmi, but everything else was sketchy (except for the three kings and a little more).

The information shared here has blown me away. I'm hooked.

[Rikker]

I'd love to see a coffee table book done about it. This runs into sticky issues about contested histories, though, particularly with respect to the Ramkhamhaeng inscription. There's a nice collection of essays on that particular topic called The Ramkhamhaeng Controversy, which I've borrowed from the Siam Society library before (but never quite found the time to get through).

[DavidHouston]

A widely available Thai book is "อักษรไทยโบาณ" by ธวัช ปุณโณทก published in 2549 (2006), 263 pages, by the Chulalongkorn University Press; price 230 baht. I have found this book even at provincial book stores. The 2006 printing run was 2,000 copies.

[desi]

I realise I'm being naive here... but seems to me they could simply state the contested opinions and leave it at that?

'The Ramkhamhaeng Controversy' brings up a very interesting read...

[DavidHouston]

I realise I'm being naive here... but seems to me they could simply state the contested opinions and leave it at that?

'The Ramkhamhaeng Controversy' brings up a very interesting read...

Desi and Rikker,

Is this the same issue discussed in the David Wyatt's "Studies in Thai History" chapter entitled, "Contextual Arguments for the Authenticity of the Ramkhamhaeng Inscription" or are you referring to another issue? Thanks.

[desi]

A widely available Thai book is "อักษรไทยโบาณ" by ธวัช ปุณโณทก published in 2549 (2006), 263 pages, by the Chulalongkorn University Press; price 230 baht. I have found this book even at provincial book stores. The 2006 printing run was 2,000 copies.

Thank you David. It's sure to be at the Chula bookstore (easy to get to).

This is quite the story opening up. I started out researching for discussions on the Thai script's lack of spaces between sentences, and the Illustrated Manuscripts before they added spaces (before printing reached the west). And now I have a brilliant story involving Kings and stone inscriptions and controversy.

[Rikker]

Yes, I'm sure that's the same issue, though I haven't read that particular article by Wyatt. 'The Ramkhamhaeng Controversy' consists of a series of articles on both sides of the issue.

Full info:

The Ramkhamhaeng Controversy: Selected Papers. Edited by James F. Chamberlain. The Siam Society, 1991.

This chunk from Wikipedia is a decent enough summary:

This stone was allegedly discovered in 1833 by King Mongkut (then still a monk) in the Wat Mahathat. It should be noted that the authenticity of the stone -- or at least portions of it -- has been brought into question.[1] Piriya Krairiksh, an academic at the Thai Khadi Research institute, notes that the stele's treatment of vowels suggests that its creators had been influenced by European alphabet systems; thus, he concludes that the stele was fabricated by someone during the reign of Rama IV himself, or shortly before. The matter is very controversial, since if the stone is in fact a fabrication, the entire history of the period will have to be re-written.[2]

Scholars are still divided over the issue about the stele's authenticity.[3] It remains an anomaly amongst contemporary writings, and in fact no other source refers to King Ramkhamhaeng by name. Some authors claim the inscription was completely a 19th-century fabrication, some claim that the first 17 lines are genuine, some that the inscription was fabricated by King Lithai (a later Sukhothai king), and some scholars still hold to the idea of the inscription's authenticity. [4] The inscription and its image of a Sukhothai utopia remains central to Thai nationalism, and the suggestion that it may have been faked in the 1800s caused Michael Wright, a British scholar, to be threatened with deportation under Thailand's lese majeste laws .[5]

There are also several books in Thai on the topic. Even Thai scholars remain divided (it was a Thai scholar, Piriya Krairiksh, who first questioned its authenticity in the 1980s, I think). The general public for the large part has either entirely forgotten the controversy or was never aware of it.

Other reading:

Seditious Histories: Contesting Thai and Southeast Asian Pasts, by Craig J. Reynolds. University of Washington Press, 2006.

Intellectual Might and National Myth: A Forensic Investigation of the Ram Khamhaeng Controversy in Thai Society, by Mukhom Wongthes. Matichon publishing, ltd. 2003.

You can read excerpts and occasional full articles at SEAlang's Southeast Asian Linguistics Archive (SALA). Search for Ram Khamhaeng in the title and look for PDF and DJVU links in the results.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

At the time, the five volume set was running low, and they only had two or three of the volumes left. The comparative book was in ready supply, though, and came in normal size "student" version and an enlarged (A3-size pages) "teacher" version (I bought both--the contents are identical).

The Siam Society is closed on Mondays, so I went to the National Library.

It's my habit to check out gift shops and books stores attached to Museums as they usually feature 'the best of'. And in the Natural Library book store is where I found what I believe is the large version you mentioned. I'm not sure if it's the same one you have? Beautiful front cover (in colour), sets of script with photos inside, can be hung on a wall like a calendar. Perfect, exactly what I wanted. And since they are all in Thai, I'll match the different pages to the ones you've translated in this post (again, thank you for taking the time).

In the library I went up to the Ancient Languages Section on the 4th floor. It's a must for those curious about the origins of the Thai script. Photos are one thing, but seeing it all for real was worth the trip (a pity I couldn't get permission to take photos).

A plus was seeing the palm leaf manuscripts for the first time. I neglected to get a book on the subject on the way out so I will be going back.

Getting back to the book store... I couldn't find any other books mentioned, but I did pick up สมุดภาพปฟาราธรรม.

I also purchased three books depicting classic Thai designs. One is in English / Thai - 'Classic Thai Style for Designing', by Vudhichai Prommala. The beautiful sketches gave me the idea to create Thai Styles of my own, but combined with the artistic Thai scripts down through the ages. Several years back I designed personal ayer mula's (sp) and batiks for a client in Brunei. When flipping through the books today, it came to me that the Thai script / classic style combo is crying out to be played with too. And a plus, out here there's a lot more material on hand for research (in BSB I couldn't get help with the indepth history behind different design elements and styles so I winged it).

Tomorrow will (hopefully) include a visit to the Siam Society to track down some of the other books mentioned in this discussion.

[Rikker]

Yes, that sounds like exactly the one I have.

And I forgot to mention--the bookstore doesn't stock the books in short supply. It was at another building that I bought some other titles, but I'm a bit hazy on what it's name was. It wasn't a store, just a typical government office, large room with lots of desks inside. The 5-volume set I mentioned goes into detail on the inscriptions, so it's probably more than you need. Contains annotated texts of various inscriptions, with backgrounds. (Which you can also get on the SAC site.)

I haven't been back since they remodeled last year (much of their collection was boxed up and inaccessible during it). It sounds like they've relocated the exhibits of inscriptions and other old writings, because I don't remember them being on the 4th floor. I definitely need to make another trip to see what's new.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

It wasn't a store, just a typical government office, large room with lots of desks inside.

If my memory serves me right... pass the front info desk, then walk towards the elevators. Before you reach there, look to the left and you'll see a long hallway. At the end of that hall is a door going into a government office. Facing the door (inside the room) is a long counter.

They were getting ready to go for lunch so I opted to skip the experience. But as the book I want is there, I'll go back.

I haven't been back since they remodeled last year (much of their collection was boxed up and inaccessible during it). It sounds like they've relocated the exhibits of inscriptions and other old writings, because I don't remember them being on the 4th floor. I definitely need to make another trip to see what's new.

It's not a large space but it had everything I dreamed of seeing around Bangkok. Only, in one room, not in places all over this huge city (I actually thought I'd have to track them down in Wats).

When you walk through the door, in the place of honour is a copy of the stone at the middle of the controversy. Surrounding it are other stones carved with various scripts. All impressive (to me).

Around the walls of the room are cabinets housing ancient palm leaf inscriptions stating the history of the kings. Again, impressive.

In the middle are more cabinets. Some explaining methods. Some showing contents of books. Some with the tools used for the two book types shown (folded and palm leaf).

Two cabinets are actual antique book cases, black with gold painted artwork (I assume they housed the books in question).

The books are in fantastic shape. I don't understand how that is in this heat and humidity... the materials used? Special rooms?

And what I'd give to be able to use a camera in that room for a mere five minutes...

[Rikker]

I think the whole Ramkhamhaeng controversy has made the Thais more wary of foreign interest in these old writings. Hence the suspicion I met when showing interest in books containing the texts of the inscriptions, and perhaps part of the reason why no photos are allowed (although preservation is certainly an important factor there, too).

There are Thai scholars who continue to believe that the Ramkhamhaeng inscription is not authentic, and there are foreign scholars who continue to support its authenticity. Despite that, one of the end results seems to be increased wariness. Once bitten, twice shy.

A huge amount of early, important work on Southeast inscriptions (not just Thai) was done by a foreigner, George Cœdès (Thai: ยอร์ช เซเดส์). He was director of Thailand's National Library from 1918-1929, and compiled two volumes of texts of stone inscriptions found in Thailand. (He wrote them in French and translated them into Thai himself.) This series has then been picked up and continued by the Thais, who are up to volume 7 (a book calling itself volume 8 was released, but it mostly rehashes earlier work).

Cœdès also published 8 volumes of Khmer inscriptions, rediscovered the ancient kingdom of Srivijaya, wrote a huge number of articles and seminal books like The Indianized States of Southeast Asia (1968) and The Making of South East Asia (1966) (neither of which I have yet had the pleasure to read yet). A hugely influential scholar in shaping what we know about the region today.

It's a pity that today nationalism has become so entangled in these issues--understanding Southeast Asia requires a regional perspective, not bound by current geo-political divisions. Thailand is chock full of Khmer and Mon inscriptions, and it's no different in other countries. The region has a complex history, and we'd all benefit from more openness.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

I picked up a copy of The Ram Khamhaeng Controversy from the Siam Society this afternoon. And while I haven't had much time to go through it, I was impressed with the foreword by HRH Princess Galyani Vadhana. It makes me wonder if many of the Thai people are aware of the democratic stance of those higher up? People similar to those who reacted strangely to you at the National Library? (or am I missing something due to my lack of knowledge on this subject?)

As for the no photo rule, I'd like someone to tell me please how photography can damage stone carvings. They had the same rule in the Mumbai Museum (used to be called the Prince of Wales). In Mumbai, the carvings were outside under the eaves, yet we were still not supposed to take photos. It made no sense to me at all.

I so agree on openess. It's inevitable that it will eventually win out, just... when?

[Rikker]

I was thinking more of preservation of palm leaf manuscripts and things, which could be the reason for a blanket no-photo rule. Still, though, they could always just say no flash photography. So it doesn't make much sense either way. Just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt before the conspiracy theorist in me starts overthinking things...

[desi]

Actually, a blanket no photo rule does make sense... but usually, when asked, there is one person everyone points to, to receive special permission. A friend's driver was designated the Thai translator for a day and even he couldn't get a direct answer as to who to ask. I'm not done, so maybe I need to work on it more...

[Rikker]

I'm still not sure how it makes sense--it's a free, publicly funded "museum". Allowing photographs would equal free publicity, resulting in greater public interest, giving them reason to request more funding... seems win-win. What am I missing?

I'm thinking of, for example, Richard Barrow's posts about various museums and sites around Bangkok, for example. Much more engaging with pictures!

Edited August 20, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

I'm still not sure how it makes sense--it's a free, publicly funded "museum". Allowing photographs would equal free publicity, resulting in greater public interest, giving them reason to request more funding... seems win-win. What am I missing?

Because the West does it? Sometimes I think that's the only reason for doing some of the things I see in SE Asia. No real reason really, just following naff rules the West put in years ago.

Great point on free publicity and increased public interest... now to find who to talk to...

I'm thinking of, for example, Richard Barrow's posts about various museums and sites around Bangkok, for example. Much more engaging with pictures!

Exactly! I started a Thai language learning blog for selfish reasons - to galvanize myself into learning Thai and the Thai culture my way. I'm not sure about writing a post on the controversy, but if I write about the Thai script I'd hope to show the beautiful ancient versions. Scanning the front cover of that book is possible, but so lame...

Edited August 20, 2008 by desi

[Rikker]

Here's a blog post someone made on the topic last year. It's an interesting blog--I wish they would have kept it up.

[desi]

Good one, thanks! (I've bookmarked it...)

So many blogs from Westerners in Thailand get started, then are left drifting. Or Westerners come here for a couple of years, post wonderful accounts of their time in Thailand, then go home.

I did a search on decent Thai language blogs and there's only a handful out there (yours is included, of course). One good one stalled recently... maybe a nudge is...

Btw - I went looking, once again, for the beautiful book you described earlier in this conversation. I travelled to North BK to the bookstore that has it online... no pleasure.

[Johpa]

I remember back in the early 1980s that my Thai professor, as well as the other five or so college professors teaching Thai in the United States at that time, were presented by the Thai government with a beautiful finely detailed rendition of the Ramkhamhaeng Stone that stood a good two feet (.60 meters) tall. Of course none of us first year Thai student had ever heard of this object. Yet I do remember that my professor noted that he was a bit skeptical of the historical claims, so this controversy is nothing new.

And as one of the history geeks who has read Cœdès's tome The Indianized States of Southeast Asia, it is worth the effort and not as intimidating as it initially appears.

[Rikker]

Right. I'm not sure when the authenticity was first questioned, but it was in the 1980s that the academic 'war' raged strongest (there's even a collection of articles on the topic in Thai entitled ศึกศิลาจารึก 'inscription battle').

Edited August 21, 2008 by Rikker

[desi]

Right. I'm not sure when the authenticity was first questioned, but it was in the 1980s that the academic 'war' raged strongest (there's even a collection of articles on the topic in Thai entitled ศึกศิลาจารึก 'inscription battle').

Yet another reason to learn to read Thai :-)

Edited August 22, 2008 by desi

[desi]

I was thinking more of preservation of palm leaf manuscripts and things, which could be the reason for a blanket no-photo rule. Still, though, they could always just say no flash photography. So it doesn't make much sense either way. Just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt before the conspiracy theorist in me starts overthinking things...

Btw - I came across palm leaf manuscripts out in the open at a Mon museum on Ko Kret island. As they are every bit as beautiful as the ones in the museum in BKK, I'll post the photos later on my blog.