Thaksin To Seek Political Asylum In Britain

[Plus]

Public spotlight that PAD brings to politics makes it very difficult for anyone to deviate from the prescribed course of actions even if they wanted to. The decisions are made on the streets and by the civil society, not by backroom deal makers.

I wonder where they were when the militairy took control, oh yeah that's right, they had their mission accomplished with help of the militairy.

There were back in the "barracks" for six months. PAD stopped their rallies in the run up to the failed April elections.

I would like them to seek justice for the Thai People that democratically choose a government but were made irrelvant by those criminals that carried out the coup, but of course they only want justice for one person and one person only. Why are these criminals not on trail, surely they have commited greater crimes then the crimes that Thaksin and his wife have been charged with.

At the moment of the coup there was no democratically elected government, no parlament, no senate. There was a "caretaker" government that consitutionally was supposed to last for three months only, and it was headed by a PM who went back on his very public promise to stay away from politics.

Democracy has nothing do with with decisions being made on the street, and I hope for the sake of Thailand, they are not made by the PAD. A good example is the Cambodian Temple crisis. Where a perfectly sane deal has been stopped, because the said minister was giving away territory to Cambodia. Everyone but the PAD knows that this was certainly not the case, you cannot give away what you don't own.

You can present your arguments in the relevant thread, in short, Noppadon gave away the historical value of the land and communities on the Thai side of the border and put a seven country commitee in charge of disputed territories that Thais claim as their own.

1) Distaste for democracy. The rural poor are too ignorant to have a vote

2) Support for military intervention if it threatens the established old guard.

3) Supportive of individuals using politics as a vehicle for personal revenge

4) Selective justice. Prosecuting some but ignoring the crimes of others.

Strawman arguments - all your points are made up by yourself.

Among PAD supporters on this board:

1. I don't know anyone who rejects the results of the recent elections

2. I don't know anyone who thinks the coup was staged to protect the old guard

3. I don't know anyone who thinks that Sondhi is driven only by his personal revenge and doesn't believe in his stated cause

4. I don't know anyone who doesn't acknowledge any of the countless lawsuit against Thaksin's opponents

[hammered]

The Uk will not return Thaksin & Co. due to Thailands poor record on human rights abuse. Mr Thaksin will be able to prove without question that - indeed during his time in office their were infact several thousand people summarily executed in the name of the 'war on drugs'.

that would indeed be ironic, if the UK decided that since Thailand's justice system failed alleged drug dealers in the war of drugs, what with 2000+ executed with due process, that therefore it would not be a safe place to send Thaksin back to given that he too could be a victim of a justice system which clearly shoots first and thinks after.

If he can pull that one off, I will be in awe of his bulls&*t skills, I am already pretty much in awe, but this would be taking it to an entirely new 'irony died when they gave Arafat and Kissinger peace prizes' kind of way.

For goodness sake the tax evasion was a open and shut case no matter how you package it; send his wife to jail. kick her to the cuuuuuuuuuuuuurb girlfriend. JERRY JERRY JERRY

I wonder if Thaksin avoids those countries where anybody from any country who has committed human rights abuses can be tried under local law?

[Meerkat]

Public spotlight that PAD brings to politics makes it very difficult for anyone to deviate from the prescribed course of actions even if they wanted to. The decisions are made on the streets and by the civil society, not by backroom deal makers.

I wonder where they were when the militairy took control, oh yeah that's right, they had their mission accomplished with help of the militairy.

There were back in the "barracks" for six months. PAD stopped their rallies in the run up to the failed April elections.

For a group which (at least originally) described themselves as pro-democracy, their lack of protest post-coup was deafening. They even disbanded two days afterwards (and disbanded the political party they set up in May). Sounds like "mission accomplished" to me. Oh, it wasn't "mission accomplished", it was "goal accomplished"...

I would like them to seek justice for the Thai People that democratically choose a government but were made irrelvant by those criminals that carried out the coup, but of course they only want justice for one person and one person only. Why are these criminals not on trail, surely they have commited greater crimes then the crimes that Thaksin and his wife have been charged with.

At the moment of the coup there was no democratically elected government, no parlament, no senate. There was a "caretaker" government that consitutionally was supposed to last for three months only, and it was headed by a PM who went back on his very public promise to stay away from politics.

The courts were asked by the highest power in the land to sort out the political void; not the army. The army, contrary to the PAD's "New Politics" farce, should have no part to play in politics, and coups are pure and simple treason (until you change the law ex post facto of course).

Democracy has nothing do with with decisions being made on the street, and I hope for the sake of Thailand, they are not made by the PAD. A good example is the Cambodian Temple crisis. Where a perfectly sane deal has been stopped, because the said minister was giving away territory to Cambodia. Everyone but the PAD knows that this was certainly not the case, you cannot give away what you don't own.

You can present your arguments in the relevant thread, in short, Noppadon gave away the historical value of the land and communities on the Thai side of the border and put a seven country commitee in charge of disputed territories that Thais claim as their own.

The original plan included provision for a Thai-Cambodian team to manage the disputed areas for their mutual benefit; the seven country committee was only proposed after the PAD and allies forced Thailand to withdraw the plan. You know this, and admitted yourself at the time that the original plan was better than the mess we've now got. To now try and imply that it was Noppadol who has wilfully put Thai territory under foreign control is a distortion of the truth in context. It's exactly the kind of half-truth the PAD use to try and stir up nationalistic fervour to their own ends; the ouster of the democratically elected government.

1) Distaste for democracy. The rural poor are too ignorant to have a vote

2) Support for military intervention if it threatens the established old guard.

3) Supportive of individuals using politics as a vehicle for personal revenge

4) Selective justice. Prosecuting some but ignoring the crimes of others.

Strawman arguments - all your points are made up by yourself.

Among PAD supporters on this board:

1. I don't know anyone who rejects the results of the recent elections

2. I don't know anyone who thinks the coup was staged to protect the old guard

3. I don't know anyone who thinks that Sondhi is driven only by his personal revenge and doesn't believe in his stated cause

4. I don't know anyone who doesn't acknowledge any of the countless lawsuit against Thaksin's opponents

1) The PAD's vision of "New Politics" is regressive. It is designed to limit the power of the rural voters (or as you so poetically call them, "truly fuc_ked up people") who they feel do not deserve an equal vote to the rest of the population. As to your point, there have been plenty of comments and implications on the board by PAD supporters rejecting the elections as bought rather than won.

2) "New Politics" seeks to take control of the military away from the government and place the government under the military, enshrining it the power to take over if certain vague conditions are met. What's the last coup got to do with it?

3) Sondhi's involvement in politics only started after his nose was pushed out of Thaksin's trough. Was it the only reason? No, probably not. But would Sondhi have become a "champion of democracy" had that not happened? Hmm...

4) Where has the PAD been campaigning for justice against anybody bar its political foes? What has your comment got to do with the original point?

The PAD had a certain amount of legitimacy in the beginning when its role was to highlight some of the abuses of power within the TRT government (although as stated, IMO it was started only after Sondhi and Thaksin fell out). It has now morphed into some kind of nationalist, seditious, oligarchic monster; I'm pretty surprised that some of those who railed against (perceived or actual) anti-democratic practices of politicians in the past can stand behind the even more anti-democratic proposals of this lot. It beggars belief.

As to those who hold no love for democracy, fair enough. Then it just becomes an agree-to-differ issue on the merits of various forms of government.

[Plus]

Meerkat, you are answering arguments that I have not made.

I spoke about PAD supporters on this board, not every single speaker at their rallies for the past three years, and certainly not the "new politics".

On the temple issue, the original plan, agreed on in junta's time, included listing of the ENTIRE site, and Thais walked off when Cambodians insisted that land on the Thai side has no value. Noppadon concurred, completely reversing Thailand previous stance.

The possibility of the committee management of the adjoining areas that have been excluded from the listing by Noppadon is one of the negative outcomes for Thailand.

[Siripon]

Now Thaksin has been advised not to attend the Man City's home games, citing fears for his personal safety; surely the Thai government can argue England is clearly unsafe for him and he needs to be extradited swiftly.

Or will he seek asylum in Bermuda, claiming threats on his life from irate Man City fans?

[younghusband]

Meerkat, you are answering arguments that I have not made.

I spoke about PAD supporters on this board, not every single speaker at their rallies for the past three years, and certainly not the "new politics".

On the temple issue, the original plan, agreed on in junta's time, included listing of the ENTIRE site, and Thais walked off when Cambodians insisted that land on the Thai side has no value. Noppadon concurred, completely reversing Thailand previous stance.

The possibility of the committee management of the adjoining areas that have been excluded from the listing by Noppadon is one of the negative outcomes for Thailand.

Sorry this won't really do, that is distancing yourself from the PAD's policy simply when it suits you to do so.It's quite clear what the PAD leadership's agenda is and frankly what PAD supporters say on this forum is neither here nor there.Sceptics such as myself have tried to engage with you as an articulate voice with a coherent vision albeit one with which I disagree.I cannot say the same for the rest of the PAD supporters on this forum, and have sometimes wondered whether you are entirely comfortable with these travelling companions.In any event your distaste for democracy and open contempt for Thailand's rural majority has long been evident as has your preference for authoritarian rule bolstered by military intervention where necessary, very much the PAD leadership agenda.

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

[baanthale]

Hey Plus, you have been argued down to the ground in thread after thread, specially by Meerkat, but also by others. You have gone so far that you even call the majority of Thailands voters "truly fuc_ked up people" , why don't you just give it up? Have this become some sort of "face issue" for you?

[astral]

Hope UK does not agree - he's being prosecuted not persecuted!

Exactly.

[hammered]

Meerkat, you are answering arguments that I have not made.

I spoke about PAD supporters on this board, not every single speaker at their rallies for the past three years, and certainly not the "new politics".

On the temple issue, the original plan, agreed on in junta's time, included listing of the ENTIRE site, and Thais walked off when Cambodians insisted that land on the Thai side has no value. Noppadon concurred, completely reversing Thailand previous stance.

The possibility of the committee management of the adjoining areas that have been excluded from the listing by Noppadon is one of the negative outcomes for Thailand.

Sorry this won't really do, that is distancing yourself from the PAD's policy simply when it suits you to do so.It's quite clear what the PAD leadership's agenda is and frankly what PAD supporters say on this forum is neither here nor there.Sceptics such as myself have tried to engage with you as an articulate voice with a coherent vision albeit one with which I disagree.I cannot say the same for the rest of the PAD supporters on this forum, and have sometimes wondered whether you are entirely comfortable with these travelling companions.In any event your distaste for democracy and open contempt for Thailand's rural majority has long been evident as has your preference for authoritarian rule bolstered by military intervention where necessary, very much the PAD leadership agenda.

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

There are rumours of tensions and possible splits in the PAD leadership over future policy.

If we are going to compare the PAD to facists we alo shouldnt overlook Mr. Samak's well known facist past. That is part of the problem right now a choice of right or right or extreme right or extreme right or ultra nationalist or ultra nationalist. There is no left or even center unless one notices a couple of powerless Democrat MPs who seem centrist but certainly not left. even the leftists in PPP hav ebeen both smashed by the system and totally abandoned by their own party unless you consdier Surapong a leftists and having recently discussed this with leftists I dont think they would. And both street demonstration organisers and up country MPs build their popularity on a base of extreme nationalistic rhetoric with a good few doses of xenophobia to the other within the nation or from some other province as much as anything else.

What was it Giles said? The PAD have morphed into a proto facist organization and the government is led by an extreme rightist and packed with gangsters and sleazy politicians. The future sure doesnt look bright for Thailand.

I notice the world bank has said investment in Thailand lags because of politcal instability and a lack of skilled workers. Now even if we see the end of political instability we still face the fact that the market rquires better educated workers for the country to miove on and yet that diametrially opposes the interests of whoever wins this current little fracas or whoever manages to cobble together a sleazy deal. In many ways if the courts had been able to deal with Thaksin as harshly as now but before the coup and someone like Somkid had taken over the whole future would probably look rosier. However, it is easy to judge with hindsight.

[brahmburgers]

I don't know some details about what PAD is proposing, though they're not now calling for a coup d'etat.

In the big picture of things, I think that's because Thailand has been so mismanaged in recent years, that a sort of 'standing demonstration' is a good idea. If PAD supporters (people who have differing ideas of how gov't should conduct its business) felt they had a viable means to make their voices heard, there would be less, or perhaps no sustained protests. As it is, current majority gov't appears to be focusing all their energy on either doing as little legislation as possible, or if they do anything at all, it's just to save their skins and enrich themselves.

How much governance or legislation has been implemented (in the past several years) - that tangibly benefits ordinary Thai people? None.

It's like Nixon administration when they were bunkered down and hamstrung about Watergate. The opposite is someone like Bill Clinton who used to come to work every day - seeking ways to dynamically and effectively deal with issues that would palpably help his constituents. That sort of attitude is devoid in Thai political circles. Thai politicians are a 'mai pen rai' bunch of selfish self-enriching no shows.

[Samuian]

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD?

Mr.T's orders the war on drugs had several thousand people killed in cold blood, no evidence, no justice, same with the incident where nearly 100 demonstrators from down south, "suffocated" on army trucks, AFTER their arrest, and you come up and compare the PAD with "the black shirt" come on, you wanna be taken serious, bark up another tree, keep trying to belittle the xx wrongdoings of the former ex-PM and his cronies, keep comparing them with "lambs of innocence" and the opposition with the wolves.

How is your view on Mr.Mugabe, on the Military Junta in Burma, in North Korea, are they angels too?

.....on Payroll or freelancer trying to impress the PR office of the ousted ex PM fugitive, eager to became recognized for a pay rise ?

keep on trying

[sjaak327]

There were back in the "barracks" for six months. PAD stopped their rallies in the run up to the failed April elections.

But they officially stopped their activities only 2 days after the coup....

At the moment of the coup there was no democratically elected government, no parlament, no senate. There was a "caretaker" government that consitutionally was supposed to last for three months only, and it was headed by a PM who went back on his very public promise to stay away from politics.

But of course you still remember why that was the case ? Thaksin calling an election, which technically wasn't necessary, and the opposition boycotting those elections, of course because they knew they couldn't beat him at the ballot box.

A disgrace no other word for it. Political parties that boycot an election, because they know beforehand that there's now way to win them.

[OurManinSamui2008]

Toxin is like a little boy with a ball. He's okay if he's winning the game, but when he loses possesion he cries foul and wants to take it home. Shame that the UK immigration weren't as stringet with Pokamon as the Thai authorities where with Glitter. Whilst there's difference in offences, there's no difference in culpability. It's about time Thailand opened up the box and investigated some of the other stuff that Toxin has been accused of, but it's probably unlikely, just as much as Thailand genuinely pushing for extradition.

Well... on Thai Rath Thai web site Bermuda is mentioned as a bolt hole.......For Faxin and his siblings......Maybe just maybe... poor old Man City hey!

[sriracha john]

At the moment of the coup there was no democratically elected government, no parliament, no senate. There was a "caretaker" government that constitutionally was supposed to last for three months only, and it was headed by a PM who went back on his very public promise to stay away from politics.

But of course you still remember why that was the case ? Thaksin calling an election, which technically wasn't necessary, and the opposition boycotting those elections, of course because they knew they couldn't beat him at the ballot box.

I believe it was "technically" necessary to call for an election after he "technically" dissolved Parliament first.

The opposition boycotting the election was not illegal and as history has shown played a role in the tyrant's ouster. It was an excellent strategic move that ruined Thaksin's plans to avoid the censure debate that prompted Thaksin to dissolve Parliament in the first place.

Still, even without opposition in the election, he decided to commit electoral fraud, which prompted the dissolving of his TRT.

Edited August 24, 2008 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

Toxin is like a little boy with a ball. He's okay if he's winning the game, but when he loses possesion he cries foul and wants to take it home. Shame that the UK immigration weren't as stringet with Pokamon as the Thai authorities where with Glitter. Whilst there's difference in offences, there's no difference in culpability. It's about time Thailand opened up the box and investigated some of the other stuff that Toxin has been accused of, but it's probably unlikely, just as much as Thailand genuinely pushing for extradition.

Well... on Thai Rath Thai web site Bermuda is mentioned as a bolt hole.......For Faxin and his siblings......Maybe just maybe... poor old Man City hey!

... and just in time for his favorite past-time... coordinating Drug Wars..

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2163876

[baanthale]

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

Anyone who spent some time in Thailand knows that vote buying started long before Thaksin, and that it is not one sided! The discussion regarding this have been up on Thai visa many times. Also, most money takers will NOT vote for the one giving them money, even if the take money offered! And PAD doesn't offer "compensation" for anyone attending their fascist meetings?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD? So why did they choose to demonstrate in the heart of Thaksin-PPP land? To get more supporters, I don't think so, the wanted confrontation, and they got it. I do not say that the anti protesters did the right think, but it was expected to happened. Would be the same result if a Nazi organization did demonstrations in Jerusalem.

Mr.T's orders the war on drugs had several thousand people killed in cold blood, So why wasn't he convicted for this crime?? I think you and me know the answer..

[Meerkat]

I don't know some details about what PAD is proposing, though they're not now calling for a coup d'etat.

The Roi Et chapter of the PAD seemed to be asking for exactly that a month or two ago, at least according to Sondhi's own media network:

The Roiet PAD read out their fourth declaration, stating three objectives: to blame the anti-PAD protestors, to call on the military and police officers to drive out the government of Samak Sundaravej, and to demand the resignation of the puppet government.

I'm not sure how much cooperation there is between the local chapters and the core management team though; I can't find a PAD manifesto online.

[rixalex]

Mr.T's orders the war on drugs had several thousand people killed in cold blood, So why wasn't he convicted for this crime?? I think you and me know the answer..

You think he wasn't convicted because he would take others down i assume? Rather than arguing against him being convicted of this crime on the grounds that he wasn't the only one (as you seem to be doing), why don't you argue for everyone involved being brought to justice, including him. Or do you seriously think he is in no way culpable for government policy during his tenure?

[sjaak327]

I believe it was "technically" necessary to call for an election after he "technically" dissolved Parliament first.

The opposition boycotting the election was not illegal and as history has shown played a role in the tyrant's ouster. It was an excellent strategic move that ruined Thaksin's plans to avoid the censure debate that prompted Thaksin to dissolve Parliament in the first place.

Still, even without opposition in the election, he decided to commit electoral fraud, which prompted the dissolving of his TRT.

Beyond the technicalities, my point was that people who claim to be democratic (as in running a polictical party) and then trying to boycot an election with the sole reason of udermining the democratic process is faul play. Whether or not such an act is illegal is besides the point. The people that DID vote in that election, were made irrelevant.

[sriracha john]

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

Anyone who spent some time in Thailand knows that vote buying started long before Thaksin, and that it is not one sided! The discussion regarding this have been up on Thai visa many times. Also, most money takers will NOT vote for the one giving them money, even if the take money offered! And PAD doesn't offer "compensation" for anyone attending their fascist meetings?

so then, they ARE "sophisticated, political fit and informed people" ?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD? So why did they choose to demonstrate in the heart of Thaksin-PPP land? To get more supporters, I don't think so, the wanted confrontation, and they got it. I do not say that the anti protesters did the right think, but it was expected to happened. Would be the same result if a Nazi organization did demonstrations in Jerusalem.

They chose to go because they felt they could in a democracy that values free speech. But lovely philosophy of yours. The rape victim deserved to be raped because she wore a dress. She "wanted" sex and she "got it."

[sriracha john]

I believe it was "technically" necessary to call for an election after he "technically" dissolved Parliament first.

The opposition boycotting the election was not illegal and as history has shown played a role in the tyrant's ouster. It was an excellent strategic move that ruined Thaksin's plans to avoid the censure debate that prompted Thaksin to dissolve Parliament in the first place.

Still, even without opposition in the election, he decided to commit electoral fraud, which prompted the dissolving of his TRT.

Beyond the technicalities, my point was that people who claim to be democratic (as in running a polictical party) and then trying to boycot an election with the sole reason of udermining the democratic process is faul play. Whether or not such an act is illegal is besides the point. The people that DID vote in that election, were made irrelevant.

Why? Were the ballots blank? Did nobody run in the elections?

It was a strategic political maneuver and was something that Thaksin, in his envisioned 20-year-TRT-rule mindset, was caught completely off-guard about.

Even if you decide that in the end their actions were immoral...it's still numerous steps ahead of TRT who, in the end, were illegal.

[sriracha john]

I don't know some details about what PAD is proposing, though they're not now calling for a coup d'etat.

The Roi Et chapter of the PAD seemed to be asking for exactly that a month or two ago, at least according to Sondhi's own media network:

The Roiet PAD read out their fourth declaration, stating three objectives: to blame the anti-PAD protestors, to call on the military and police officers to drive out the government of Samak Sundaravej, and to demand the resignation of the puppet government.

I'm not sure how much cooperation there is between the local chapters and the core management team though; I can't find a PAD manifesto online.

As easily as you translate "drive out the government" to mean a coup.... it can just as easily translate to mean to do so by their votes.

For the record:

Chamlong urged PAD supporters to join the protest on Tuesday morning at 7am but refused to say to where the demonstrators would march. He insisted the PAD was not calling for a coup.

- The Nation / today

Edited August 24, 2008 by sriracha john

[baanthale]

Mr.T's orders the war on drugs had several thousand people killed in cold blood, So why wasn't he convicted for this crime?? I think you and me know the answer..

You think he wasn't convicted because he would take others down i assume? Rather than arguing against him being convicted of this crime on the grounds that he wasn't the only one (as you seem to be doing), why don't you argue for everyone involved being brought to justice, including him. Or do you seriously think he is in no way culpable for government policy during his tenure?

No, as I said before, if it is justice we want to see,then everyone involved should be charged! I argued against Samuian, because his view seems to be that Thaksin alone was involved.

[younghusband]

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD?

Mr.T's orders the war on drugs had several thousand people killed in cold blood, no evidence, no justice, same with the incident where nearly 100 demonstrators from down south, "suffocated" on army trucks, AFTER their arrest, and you come up and compare the PAD with "the black shirt" come on, you wanna be taken serious, bark up another tree, keep trying to belittle the xx wrongdoings of the former ex-PM and his cronies, keep comparing them with "lambs of innocence" and the opposition with the wolves.

How is your view on Mr.Mugabe, on the Military Junta in Burma, in North Korea, are they angels too?

.....on Payroll or freelancer trying to impress the PR office of the ousted ex PM fugitive, eager to became recognized for a pay rise ?

keep on trying

Nobody has ever said Thaksin shouldn't be brought to account for human rights abuses.Sophisticated observers know precisely why he hasn't.Do you?

It's a slovenly and patronising convention that rural voters are brought for a few hundred Baht.Sophisticated observers know it is a misleading and simplistic view.Do you?

When the Blackshirts provocatively entered London's East End (exactly like PAD determined to provoke an incident) they were knocked around badly by workers, Jews and Communists.Yes there were bloody noses and broken bones.Sophisticated observers might see a parallel with the PAD provoking trouble in TRT's home base at Udon.Do you?

It is a characteristic of intellectual impoverishment to resort to abuse in the absence of valid argument.Sophisticated observers understand that.Do you?

[Meerkat]

I don't know some details about what PAD is proposing, though they're not now calling for a coup d'etat.

The Roi Et chapter of the PAD seemed to be asking for exactly that a month or two ago, at least according to Sondhi's own media network:

The Roiet PAD read out their fourth declaration, stating three objectives: to blame the anti-PAD protestors, to call on the military and police officers to drive out the government of Samak Sundaravej, and to demand the resignation of the puppet government.

I'm not sure how much cooperation there is between the local chapters and the core management team though; I can't find a PAD manifesto online.

As easily as you translate "drive out the government" to mean a coup.... it can just as easily translate to mean to do so by their votes.

...guess it's just up to everybody to interpret as they see fit.

For the record:

Chamlong urged PAD supporters to join the protest on Tuesday morning at 7am but refused to say to where the demonstrators would march. He insisted the PAD was not calling for a coup.

- The Nation / today

The Nation seems to have updated that quote. Where your version has a full-stop after "coup", mine has, "and added that even if it did the military would not comply" then a full-stop (bolding my own of course). Changes the tone of the sentence somewhat.

Damned internet...always changing. I've linked the page in case the quote changes yet again - perhaps not a bad policy when quoting online media sources.

[baanthale]

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

Anyone who spent some time in Thailand knows that vote buying started long before Thaksin, and that it is not one sided! The discussion regarding this have been up on Thai visa many times. Also, most money takers will NOT vote for the one giving them money, even if the take money offered! And PAD doesn't offer "compensation" for anyone attending their fascist meetings?

so then, they ARE "sophisticated, political fit and informed people" ?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD? So why did they choose to demonstrate in the heart of Thaksin-PPP land? To get more supporters, I don't think so, the wanted confrontation, and they got it. I do not say that the anti protesters did the right think, but it was expected to happened. Would be the same result if a Nazi organization did demonstrations in Jerusalem.

They chose to go because they felt they could in a democracy that values free speech. But lovely philosophy of yours. The rape victim deserved to be raped because she wore a dress. She "wanted" sex and she "got it."

Yes I think they are as political fit and informed as anyone else in this country (even if most of them do not share your views on politics here)! I don't think you should loose your right to vote because you are from a rural area. Thats what democracy is all about. Do you know any place in the world with real democracy, were the population do not have a say??

To compare PAD beatings with a rape victim being raped because of her/his outfit is just laughable, do you think you did an honest comparison?

[sriracha john]

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

Anyone who spent some time in Thailand knows that vote buying started long before Thaksin, and that it is not one sided! The discussion regarding this have been up on Thai visa many times. Also, most money takers will NOT vote for the one giving them money, even if the take money offered! And PAD doesn't offer "compensation" for anyone attending their fascist meetings?

so then, they ARE "sophisticated, political fit and informed people" ?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD? So why did they choose to demonstrate in the heart of Thaksin-PPP land? To get more supporters, I don't think so, the wanted confrontation, and they got it. I do not say that the anti protesters did the right think, but it was expected to happened. Would be the same result if a Nazi organization did demonstrations in Jerusalem.

They chose to go because they felt they could in a democracy that values free speech. But lovely philosophy of yours. The rape victim deserved to be raped because she wore a dress. She "wanted" sex and she "got it."

Yes I think they are as political fit and informed as anyone else in this country (even if most of them do not share your views on politics here)! I don't think you should loose your right to vote because you are from a rural area. Thats what democracy is all about. Do you know any place in the world with real democracy, were the population do not have a say??

To compare PAD beatings with a rape victim being raped because of her/his outfit is just laughable, do you think you did an honest comparison?

Much more honest than the Nazi one...

Fortunately footage exists that shows the attacks were brutal and unprovoked.

To spin it and say they were " cruisin' for a bruisin' " is ridiculous and bizarre to say the least. They were the victims of an attack, they were on the receiving end of a brutal and vicious one-sided attack... and yet, you still blame them... which is not unlike a defendant's lawyer would do in a rape case.

Edited August 24, 2008 by sriracha john

[baanthale]

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

Anyone who spent some time in Thailand knows that vote buying started long before Thaksin, and that it is not one sided! The discussion regarding this have been up on Thai visa many times. Also, most money takers will NOT vote for the one giving them money, even if the take money offered! And PAD doesn't offer "compensation" for anyone attending their fascist meetings?

so then, they ARE "sophisticated, political fit and informed people" ?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD? So why did they choose to demonstrate in the heart of Thaksin-PPP land? To get more supporters, I don't think so, the wanted confrontation, and they got it. I do not say that the anti protesters did the right think, but it was expected to happened. Would be the same result if a Nazi organization did demonstrations in Jerusalem.

They chose to go because they felt they could in a democracy that values free speech. But lovely philosophy of yours. The rape victim deserved to be raped because she wore a dress. She "wanted" sex and she "got it."

Yes I think they are as political fit and informed as anyone else in this country (even if most of them do not share your views on politics here)! I don't think you should loose your right to vote because you are from a rural area. Thats what democracy is all about. Do you know any place in the world with real democracy, were the population do not have a say??

To compare PAD beatings with a rape victim being raped because of her/his outfit is just laughable, do you think you did an honest comparison?

Much more honest than the Nazi one...

Fortunately footage exists that shows the attacks were brutal and unprovoked.

To spin it and say they were " cruisin' for a bruisin' " is ridiculous and bizarre to say the least. They were the victims of an attack, they were on the receiving end of a brutal and vicious one-sided attack... and yet, you still blame them... which is not unlike a defendant's lawyer would do in a rape case.

You didn't answer my qustion!? If/when PAD can get their "New Politics" they want, and most of the population lost their right of vote and say, it would for sure start to look like some parts of Europe in the 1930's.

[jackspratt]

Nobody has ever said Thaksin shouldn't be brought to account for human rights abuses.Sophisticated observers know precisely why he hasn't.Do you?

It's a slovenly and patronising convention that rural voters are brought for a few hundred Baht.Sophisticated observers know it is a misleading and simplistic view.Do you?

When the Blackshirts provocatively entered London's East End (exactly like PAD determined to provoke an incident) they were knocked around badly by workers, Jews and Communists.Yes there were bloody noses and broken bones.Sophisticated observers might see a parallel with the PAD provoking trouble in TRT's home base at Udon.Do you?

It is a characteristic of intellectual impoverishment to resort to abuse in the absence of valid argument.Sophisticated observers understand that.Do you?

Do you see a sophisticated observer when you look in the mirror?

Or do you see someone who runs away from arguments/debates when they are being bettered, and/or have no substance to their argument?

Sophisticated readers of these forums understand. Do you?

[sriracha john]

Sorry baanthale, you're jumping all around in your comments. Can you put together something more understandable and try again?

Edited August 24, 2008 by sriracha john