Thats It!

[Lickey]

Im so pissed off with the thai labour we employ to look after the farm, we employ them to keep healthy relationships going,[my mrs is thai]

So lets look at what has been happening,

Prune 60 tamarind trees, 30% done

Replace floor and roof for our small farmhouse/store, 40% done

Prune and clean banana/papaya plantation, 40% done,

After work, put all plastic rubbish in the incinerator bins provided, 100% never done!!

So, as from now, they need to quote a price for the job and if we are happy with the end result, they will be paid.

Coments Welome, Thankyou, Lickey..

[PaddyThai]

With respect the same could be applied to most workers around the globe.

You generally don't pay people a day rate unless the job is too difficult to define and you need them to do this and that.

Getting people to price a job and then pay when job is done is, imho, the best system. The job needs to be clearly described and agred by both prior to commencement. Otherwise things can be difficult when it comes to paying.

[PhilHarries]

In contracting terms it is known as Lump Sum Turnkey and is the way the world has gone. You have to be carefull in defining the scope of work but once done and agreed it is clear to all parties what is required and when payment will be made. Problem comes with quality. The lump sum payment, minus any material costs, is divided between the number of workers and the time taken to get to the hourly rate. So if they can cut corners and do an eight hour job in four the hourly rate doubles.

[slapout]

Lickey: I know what you are up against on farm labor, I sure have not found a fool proof method. The best labor I have found up north are the border jumpers but with the laws etc I am afraid to hire them anymore. The women folk seem to work better than the men and the quality of work seems far better. We have several in the village that the wives keep the husband/boy friend going good until dark thirty, then they hit the whiskey etc. luts of luck

[meandwi]

It's like that everywhere, work as little as possible and ge paid as much as possible. Never finish the job to insure you will keep the job.

My solution was to hire a good foreman. And pay him well. If the workers don't do as I expect,,, He, will loose his job, not the workers. We go through workers every week now. He fires, then hires someone to replace him.

I also give bonuses to the forman for doing the work with quality and in a timely way.

So far, so good.

meandwi

[ozzydom]

Entirely disagree with PaddyThai, The two biggest jobs in rural Thailand are the planting and the cutting of rice,an easily defined job. Try getting Thais to give a contract price to carry out these operations.

It all comes down to the poor work ethic (with exceptions ) of Thai rural workers , as soon as there is a farang involved ,the attitude is generally one of how do we rip him off.

I could fill a book ,recounting the bad experiences with Thai rural workers, it got so bad that these days I either do everything myself or it does not get done.

Example... We needed 15 concrete fence posts put in ,which involved digging 15 holes and concreting the poles in. First off we asked the two locals how long to do the job , they said start in the morning ,finish tomorrow night,one day ok.

Then we got to the money,how much? 4000baht for the job,remembering that we were supplying everything ,including the digging tools.

No way in the world would I pay them 2000 baht each for one days work, so they said well how much will you pay, I offered 1000 baht all up to complete the job which they accepted with some joy.

So I set up two string lines and pegged the post positions and we went to Udon to do some business, came back that evening and the posts were in, great so far , except for the fact that the 1 metre of concreting mix looked untouched, but the 5 bags of cement were missing,a bit of a scratch around to find no concrete in the holes.

In the end it took the village boss to send an assistant to supervise them while they did the job properly after returning the cement of course.

Example 2.. On our last rice harvest,light ran out with 1/2 a rai left to cut ,so the T/W arranged for only three women to finish the job the next morning.(@ 200 baht a day each).

I just returned from the ponds at 9.30 am and one of the women came up and said ,all finished ,you cook us fish now. I thought ,that was quick, it was except for the fact that eleven men and women were there holding their hands out to collect 200 baht each for one hours work, in fact I had passed one of the women arriving with her cutting sickle after the cut was finished .

Even though we had only hired 3 of the women ,they all demanded paying, and it got pretty ugly,so once again the village boss had to sort it out.

At all times ,T/W does the negotiating and lays out what is expected ,but the locals still insist on trying to put one over,to the extent that we wont hire any more.

[SAP]

Lickey I think you are on the right track, and Meandwi is too.

I got asked many times by Israelies, "are the Thai's good workers" and they were surprised when I told them how frustrating it could be here in the LOS.

In Israel the Thai's are held up in highest-esteem for their quality of labour work, compared to Arabs and other labour they use. And the Thai's work really hard for 1675 bt/day compared to 150 bt/day that they get here. So the old addage runs true "you get what you pay for".

If you ever get the chance go into one of the big Toyota repair shops about 7.45 am in the morning, and watch the morning meeting from the boss and the level of supervision that happens, in Udon they even make all the mechanics do about 5 minutes of stretching and exercising before they start work. If you have the chance take a look, as its that Japanese factory/company mentality that we can all learn from and use over Asia.

SAP

SAP

[Gary A]

My wife hires the workers and while working in the rice paddies, she works along side of them. My wife is 40 years old and I hate to see her come dragging home covered in mud but she says it's her duty to plant her own rice and if she isn't working with them, the job won't be done properly.

[ozzydom]

We tried going down the track of having a Thai supervisor (he was the exception I mentioned).

He was paid 9000 bt a month to supervise the labourers and lived in the cabana on site as security for the ponds, but he got that fed up with hired labour turning up pissed with a bottle of Lao Kao in their pocket, and him having to finish up doing the jobs himself that he took off to Bangkok for less money but no stress.

[Pierrot]

My wife hires the workers and while working in the rice paddies, she works along side of them. My wife is 40 years old and I hate to see her come dragging home covered in mud but she says it's her duty to plant her own rice and if she isn't working with them, the job won't be done properly.

That's the way to go. When you employ people, you have to show them you know the job so they can't fool you. Once you've done that, things get much easier.

It's not easy to be a boss

[Pseacraft]

I feel your pain or I should say my wife feels your pain. She is fed up with her workers. Things started out good but she has been too good to them, treats them well, feeds them, gets the tools and other items they might need. Here lately they have started to take advantage of her kindness. She is starting to put the hammer down on them and things are starting to shape up. I told her to tell them to keep up the Shight work and the tyrant will be home to pay them a visit. We pay by the job and she is incharge of haggling the price. They don't show up for work they get docked a percentage of pay for the job not negotiable - screw me and I'll screw you harder. Luckily they haven't stolen any of our supplies but they do tend to treat our materials with disrespect, like leave 10 bags of cement mix out over night instead of putting it away in the storage shed - they get docked for that too.

Wife has learned you can't always be nice, when your younger then they are it's hard culture wise but when your paying the bill you darn right had better be. I hate micro-management but then it works with the right people.

Eric

[roygsd]

Im so pissed off with the thai labour we employ to look after the farm, we employ them to keep healthy relationships going,[my mrs is thai]

So lets look at what has been happening,

Prune 60 tamarind trees, 30% done

Replace floor and roof for our small farmhouse/store, 40% done

Prune and clean banana/papaya plantation, 40% done,

After work, put all plastic rubbish in the incinerator bins provided, 100% never done!!

So, as from now, they need to quote a price for the job and if we are happy with the end result, they will be paid.

Coments Welome, Thankyou, Lickey..

When you pay peanuts what do you really expect?

Roy gsd

[Smithson]

My wife hires the workers and while working in the rice paddies, she works along side of them. My wife is 40 years old and I hate to see her come dragging home covered in mud but she says it's her duty to plant her own rice and if she isn't working with them, the job won't be done properly.

That's the way to go. When you employ people, you have to show them you know the job so they can't fool you. Once you've done that, things get much easier.

It's not easy to be a boss

I tend to agree, the boss can set the pace and the workers will follow.

I've got a lot of employees in Bkk, they're a constant headache but definitely not lazy. Unless my wife organizes things it's a complete mess.

We have a guy look after our land and he does an excellent job. He quotes a job by how many days it'll take and if he finishes early he'll find other things to do, even though we're not there and he is being paid for the job, not by the day. He had 10 rai with his wife, but she got the lot when they divorced. Now he has nothing except a good work ethic from being self employed for 25 yrs.

We pay him B250 a day, I think he's well worth it because of his excellent knowledge. Two months ago the Bkk Chinese-Thai down the road told me I was paying him too much and complained pushing wages up. The other day he told me he'd watched the guy work and I was getting my money's worth.

I think we're lucky to find him.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Smithson

[roygsd]

My wife hires the workers and while working in the rice paddies, she works along side of them.

My wife is 40 years old and I hate to see her come dragging home covered in mud

but she says it's her duty to plant her own rice and if she isn't working with them, the job won't be done properly.

Tell her to wash before she comes home, or perhaps look the other way ?LOL

If she didnt want to do it she wouldnt, dont worry about it she obviously isnt.

roy gsd

[Makyai]

My wife hires the workers and while working in the rice paddies, she works along side of them. My wife is 40 years old and I hate to see her come dragging home covered in mud but she says it's her duty to plant her own rice and if she isn't working with them, the job won't be done properly.

That's the way to go. When you employ people, you have to show them you know the job so they can't fool you. Once you've done that, things get much easier.

It's not easy to be a boss

I tend to agree, the boss can set the pace and the workers will follow.

I've got a lot of employees in Bkk, they're a constant headache but definitely not lazy. Unless my wife organizes things it's a complete mess.

We have a guy look after our land and he does an excellent job. He quotes a job by how many days it'll take and if he finishes early he'll find other things to do, even though we're not there and he is being paid for the job, not by the day. He had 10 rai with his wife, but she got the lot when they divorced. Now he has nothing except a good work ethic from being self employed for 25 yrs.

We pay him B250 a day, I think he's well worth it because of his excellent knowledge. Two months ago the Bkk Chinese-Thai down the road told me I was paying him too much and complained pushing wages up. The other day he told me he'd watched the guy work and I was getting my money's worth.

I think we're lucky to find him.

Smithson can we share the guy on a rotating basis? Your land one week our land the next? I would be more then happy to pay someone 250baht a day if they have the same attitude as this guy.

[Lucifer]

Im so pissed off with the thai labour we employ to look after the farm, we employ them to keep healthy relationships going,[my mrs is thai]

So lets look at what has been happening,

Prune 60 tamarind trees, 30% done

Replace floor and roof for our small farmhouse/store, 40% done

Prune and clean banana/papaya plantation, 40% done,

After work, put all plastic rubbish in the incinerator bins provided, 100% never done!!

So, as from now, they need to quote a price for the job and if we are happy with the end result, they will be paid.

Coments Welome, Thankyou, Lickey..

When you pay peanuts what do you really expect?

Roy gsd

Where does it say he pays peanuts?

[jitagon]

Im so pissed off with the thai labour we employ to look after the farm, we employ them to keep healthy relationships going,[my mrs is thai]

So lets look at what has been happening,

Prune 60 tamarind trees, 30% done

Replace floor and roof for our small farmhouse/store, 40% done

Prune and clean banana/papaya plantation, 40% done,

After work, put all plastic rubbish in the incinerator bins provided, 100% never done!!

So, as from now, they need to quote a price for the job and if we are happy with the end result, they will be paid.

Coments Welome, Thankyou, Lickey..

When you pay peanuts what do you really expect?

Roy gsd

Where does it say he pays peanuts?

Where does it say he does not pay peanuts?

[somo]

My 64 year old mother in law supervises everything and sets the pace!

I think she shames all the workers into trying to keep up

[soundman]

And people are always wondering why my factory, and construction labour turnover is so high.

Something that many Thai labourers assume is that once they have been hired, the farang boss doesn't have a huge pool of labour to choose from & won't fire them for unsatisactory work, & demand rediculous pay increases once they have their foot in the door. In order to get the right job done for the right price, it is very important to develop a labour pool from different sources capable of doing the same job.

I have had recent experience with farm labour planting eucalypt. The first couple of days the gang worked very well. After the fourth day, they wanted an arbitary price rise of 200%, even though they were making good money allready and the current plot was actually easier work than the first three. I just turned around and told them the price was the price, take it or leave it. They shut up, finished the work just as quickly & to a satisfactory standard, and never said another word until the end of the job, where they asked when the next job would be starting.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Maizefarmer]

Often the story ........... you have a relationship with a Thai girl, and what happens? - start a business and you are expected to give jobs to brothers, sisters, cousins twice removed ect ect ..... to keep people happy.

The next thing is? .... you get requests for pay day advances. They usualy ask through the other half (?) (it's a good test of the other halfs support i.e. if you say no you expect her to support you)

Put your foot down Lickey - they may not like it but they'll quickly learn you're not a push over. If they can "push you over" each time they'll quickly learn to like you, but not respect you.

Mother - in -laws - especialy those from hardworking rural backgrounds are great - yes, I agree with you Somo - they often shame youngsters 1/3rd their age when it comes to putting in a days honest work.

[Issangeorge]

"Mother - in -laws - especialy those from hardworking rural backgrounds are great - yes, I agree with you Somo - they often shame youngsters 1/3rd their age when it comes to putting in a days honest work." I think that is the same all over. Before I retired from my job in Canada I felt that I and my co-workers the same age, worked far harder than the young workers. Thinking about when I started with the company as a young worker the older workers also worked harder than we did. Issangeorge.

[somo]

She is a lovely lady and just loves working on the land.

She has for years had a small monthly allowance but now we have bought some land works that for nothing extra,

just for the reward of seeing something grow.

Most of the youngsters just work enough to earn the price of getting drunk although there are a few notable exceptions.

[Lickey]

And i thought i was the only one!!

Just to clarify things a bit more;

Had a long chat with the mrs today about this problem, she admits she is much to blame, by giving labour another job before finishing first one, so of course they will pick the easiest job first,

I had to agree with some of her logic on this, EG, it is more important to stop the neighbours chickens digging up the cassava and eating it by placing plastic mesh on the peri-fence than re-roofing our little farmhouse which we only use in the dry season.

Pan was born and bred a farmer,{this she told me today} when she was 20 an the farm was looking good, her,sister,5 brothers went off to make there way in the world,Pan trained as a bueatician and still does that today [46] and has a succesful buisness, 17 years ago,6 months pregnant she dug holes and planted 60 tamarind saplings alone, these are still going strong today,and she regulary goes to the farm to check labour et and looks to see what needs doing and will join in, shes not really happy unless she has a machette in one hand and a lighter in the other!!

The labour are not family, just long-standing friends, They never ask for money up-front and none of them drink lo-cal [on the farm anyway] ..

So here is a list of what we pay for labour in Namsom, NE Issan.

Menial work, pruning,weeding,fruit picking 150bht a day and a free miday meal {as with all the below}

Spraying, Their manual backpack, 300 a day [danger money]

Digging post holes, hard ground, 250bht a day, [although i can do it with a water jet in a 1/4 of the time and have shown them]

Grass cutting [there strimmers] 300 bht day

Iron Buffalo, ploughing,carting,spraying ect, 600bht a day.

So how does this compare with prices in your region together?and do you buy them a meal as well?

And how do you asses a job and its worth? in my younger painfree days i would set a standard i expect paid people to follow, unfortunatly lower back pain confines my farming activities somewhat.

Thanks all for your comments and views, Lickey..

[Maizefarmer]

Those figures are pretty much are par with what others get.

The question really is: are they fulltime employees on contracts, salaries and paying tax, or would you classify them as "casual labour".

My Thai foreman who's being with us since 1989 gets Baht 23 700 a month salary (which is taxed), help with education related expenses for kids, employers 10% contribution to his pension, no food/meals, use of Toyota pickup, 28 days leave per annum ... and a few other perks.

The other 4 fulltime employees things are very different: they are on weekly wages that vary from 235 per day to 345 per day. But unlike the foreman (has his own home) they get accomodation on the property. One has over 11 years service, so he gets a bunch of extra perks as well and paid leave. All get 5 rai of land to use as they wish, and usage of farm equipment so long as they pay fuel costs. All get loads of fresh meat and as much milk as they want.

Working hours: 40 per week basic

Overtime: anything above 40hrs is paid out at "time and a half" e.g. extra 8hrs would be paid as a day and a half, 16 hrs paid as 3 days .... and believe me, come silage time a working day can be 18 hrs for 2 weeks on the trot.

All get occassional off the books financial help - but its strictly controlled by the foreman and the wife.

[jts-khorat]

Those figures are pretty much are par with what others get.

The question really is: are they fulltime employees on contracts, salaries and paying tax, or would you classify them as "casual labour".

My Thai foreman who's being with us since 1989 gets Baht 23 700 a month salary (which is taxed), help with education related expenses for kids, employers 10% contribution to his pension, no food/meals, use of Toyota pickup, 28 days leave per annum ... and a few other perks.

The other 4 fulltime employees things are very different: they are on weekly wages that vary from 235 per day to 345 per day. But unlike the foreman (has his own home) they get accomodation on the property. One has over 11 years service, so he gets a bunch of extra perks as well and paid leave. All get 5 rai of land to use as they wish, and usage of farm equipment so long as they pay fuel costs. All get loads of fresh meat and as much milk as they want.

Working hours: 40 per week basic

Overtime: anything above 40hrs is paid out at "time and a half" e.g. extra 8hrs would be paid as a day and a half, 16 hrs paid as 3 days .... and believe me, come silage time a working day can be 18 hrs for 2 weeks on the trot.

All get occassional off the books financial help - but its strictly controlled by the foreman and the wife.

Maizefarmer, your employees get an extremely sweet deal and I assume they know it; from my experience (not farming related) it will take years to wittle out all the bad apples and only stick with those that have the right work ethic and also are not too short-sighted to understand extra perks besides the salary.

If your farm is of such a size that a permanent team is worthwile it will help to use the carrot and the stick with a more long-term goal in mind, not just the finishing of this or that task -- and make your employees aware of it. There are a lot of people in Thailand who do understand that even a job that looks like harder labor than at the next neighbor can pay off if they will be employed on a constant basis, eg also in the quiet season.

[Pierrot]

Managing people is not easy. If you go to any bookstore, you will find hundreds of book on the subject. So before blaming your employees, just ask yourself, if the job is not done properly, did I hire the right people for the job? was my instruction realistic and clear enough?

Just because you have the money does not make you a respected boss, and, sorry to say that, but the same for your wife. A lot of problems arise because the wife, whose only qualification is to have married the bank account, is in charge. To speak the language does not qualify anybody to be a good boss.

But most important, understand the job. I've seen so many people (foreigners or not, it doesn't matter) make fools of themselves by giving unrealistic orders and then losing the respect and trust of their employees.

To be a good boss is not easy. It's much more than giving orders and paying salary. The sooner you understand, the faster you will enjoy the job.

[SAP]

We used to pay 5% of the farm profit to the workers as there bonus. Generally in Thailand I believe Thai bosses give a stock standard one month salary as the bonus.

WE paid similar wages and salaries to MF, but after a while I knocked the time and half OT payment on the head. As at planting time and harvest time, they would just screw around all day, and they would complete the same amount from 5pm-10-11 pm as what they achieved from 8am to 5pm. So OT just came their daily pay/8hours and added on hourly after 5pm.

SAP

[somo]

I have just started out this year growing some cassava but all workers get 150 baht/day (used to be 130 until recently)

except for weed spraying which is 250/day. They usually get food and a tot of lao khow (spelling?) now and again but that seems

pretty random depending on mum in law.

I have a set price of 300 baht/rai for planting and have to pay for use of a Tuk Tuk + fuel to get them to work most of the time

so I try to get a lot of people to finish various jobs within a day or two.

I give the guy with the tuk tuk a bit extra as he rounds up and organizes the labour when we need it.

For ploughing I pay a fixed price of 400 baht/rai for a big tractor and 330 for a smaller one. but never been there at the time and always

used the big one.

Ploughing is one area I feel is expensive as I think the guy did 12 rai in a day = 4,800 Baht and would be interested to know the cost of the

fuel used as the rest is mostly tractor rental. Having an idea of what that is would help a lot in working out if it is worthwhile buying my own tractor.

Eventually I want to rent/buy about 150 rai which will need ploughing 3 times a year if not more = 180,000 Baht at 400/rai

If anyone knows roughly how much fuel it takes to plough a rai of land that would be great to know.

[Maizefarmer]

I have just started out this year growing some cassava but all workers get 150 baht/day (used to be 130 until recently)

except for weed spraying which is 250/day. They usually get food and a tot of lao khow (spelling?) now and again but that seems

pretty random depending on mum in law.

I have a set price of 300 baht/rai for planting and have to pay for use of a Tuk Tuk + fuel to get them to work most of the time

so I try to get a lot of people to finish various jobs within a day or two.

I give the guy with the tuk tuk a bit extra as he rounds up and organizes the labour when we need it.

For ploughing I pay a fixed price of 400 baht/rai for a big tractor and 330 for a smaller one. but never been there at the time and always

used the big one.

Ploughing is one area I feel is expensive as I think the guy did 12 rai in a day = 4,800 Baht and would be interested to know the cost of the

fuel used as the rest is mostly tractor rental. Having an idea of what that is would help a lot in working out if it is worthwhile buying my own tractor.

Eventually I want to rent/buy about 150 rai which will need ploughing 3 times a year if not more = 180,000 Baht at 400/rai

If anyone knows roughly how much fuel it takes to plough a rai of land that would be great to know.

Is it worth buying a tractor - what are the respective costs?

In another thread if I understood correctly you said you have 25rai (?) under cassava. baring in mind that that is a crop which can lie in the ground more than a year it would mean whatever tractor you had would only be used at most once ayear or so for day or 2's work.

It going to take 10years plus before the differance in renting versus purchasing is ironed out - I'd say no, it doesn't make much sense if you are only working 25rai with cassava.

Things are very different if you add the 150 rai you are considering - it would certainly be a sound capital outlay as the return will be within 5 years (4 - 5 years to get a return on agrciulture equipment is a pretty sound accounting model to adopt).

Yes - you paid a bit over the odds for that 12rai of ploughing. This was with a Ford 6610 or 7610 (?)

Its very difficult to say how much fuel is/was used per rai - it depends on a few criteria:

- 2wd or 4wd drive example

- turbo or non-turbo example (non turbo's are runing at around 75 - 85hp and turbo'd examples at up to 115hp)

- what gear was driver ploughing in

- plough setup and depth (this one factor alone can double/half diesel consumption compared between 2 tractors)

- tyre condition (wheel slippage)

Worst case example? - I couldn't see him using much more than say Baht 800's worth of deisel - top whack - a little over 2 litres per rai. That's bad.

A correctly setup 4 disc plough (+/-400mm diameter per disc) on a non-turbo Ford 6610/7610 in decent mechanical order with decent fuel settings, 70% plus tread on the rubber should be able to drag the plough through a medium soil at around 18cm - 21cm depth in 2nd gear at around 5kmh - 7kmh using around 1,8 litres of diesel per rai.

The only factor not included in this calculation are the headland turns i.e. with a field 40meters x 40meters (1 perfect square rai) then every 40 meters the tractor is going to have slow down, lift the plough, do a 3 point turn, set off again and drop the plough- to repeat the turn after 40 meters at the other end of the field.

If the field is 80meters along, then he is going to spend half the total time and half the amount of headland turns. The more turns have to be done the more the portion of time ploughing is spent turning, and the greater the diesel consumption will become for the same amount of land ploughed!

Those are the factors that have to be bourne in mind looking at fuel consumption. Not a big issue over 12 rai once a year or so, but setting the plough up properly, correct tyre pressures, decent treads, proper fueling ect ect ect ...... will be a major issue on 150rai 3 x per year.

Then you got "wear & tear" costs - fair enough, and last but not least - labour (drivers time - Baht 450 per day top whack).

At the end of the day I think you paid over the odd's, but not to much (25% ??). His total costs wouldn't have being much more than half that (say Baht 2400 - at worst).

Back to wheather a tractor is worth purchasing or not - and what size to purchase?

Well scale the above figures up to 150rai and add ploughing x 3 per year, and very quickly having your own tractor will become worth it. I think 150 rai would tie well with 4 - 5year accounting model to get a return versus renting - so long as you monitor running expenses, keep the driver on his toes doing things properly - like not dropping the plough before he sets off down the field, which just messes clutches up, regular maintanence and all the rest of it. Yes, 150 rai certainly argues well for your own tractor.

Edited August 23, 2008 by Maizefarmer

[Khonwan]

Hi somo

In my experience with Ford 6600/6610 2wd-tractors, first cut with the 3-disk plough uses around 4.5 litres per rai, 1st cut with 7-disk (where the 3-disk is not used) uses 3 litres per rai, cross-cut (i.e. 2nd ploughing or harrowing) with the 7-disk uses 2.5 litres per rai.

I’m not sure about current local practice, but in the past, the driver always received the equivalent of 10% of the local rental cost, i.e. Bt40 per rai in your case.

Rgds

Khonwan