Hydroponic Nutrients

[joeycano]

I've read quite a few threads on this forum but have not found one particularly discussing the various (1) types and (2) proper use of nutrients in hydroponic gardening in Thailand. I thought to ask this question as I noticed that there are quite a bit master gardener types who post on this forum.

I am new at this and have just began to purchase the equipment needed for hydroponic gardening at my Bangkok home:

- Tomatoes;

- Hot Peppers;

- Culinary Herbs;

- Melons; &

- Cucumbers.

I have seen that there are the following kinds of nutrients out there but unsure of there proper use:

- Nutrient Solution Part A;

- Nutrient Solution Part B; &

- Micronutes

I would particularly like to know:

- What types of nutrients you would recommend for my gardening;

- What types or brands of nutrients to avoid;

- Proper use of nutrients in Thailand;

- Any techniques when using nutrients in Thailand;

- When to switch nutrients in the plants growth cycle;

- Who is supplying the best nutrients in BKK;

- About your hydroponic garding experiences in Thailand

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

jc

Edited August 23, 2008 by joeycano

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, what type of growing system? How big?? How much much $$ you want to spend?

This site should give a good background, he's informative. http://www.howardresh.com/home.html

All the BKK Co.'s info are listed on other Hydroponics posts.

rice555

[joeycano]

Thank you rice555 for the immediate reply to my post. I visited the site you recommended and found it quite informative. Good things

there. Actually, I will order Dr. Resh’s book called Hydroponic Food Production to further my hydroponic knowledge.

COST

:

At this point, I don’t have a budget and will spend what it takes to get the right equipment for my home hobby garden.

GROWING SYSTEMS

:

I’ve already visited ACK International Co., Ltd. (

http://www.ackhydrofarm.com

) and Bangsai Agricultural Center (

http://en.bangsaiagro.com

) and will visit a couple other companies later this week to get a better idea of the available systems and products. Based on my limited knowledge, I am leaning on purchasing the following grow systems;however, I’m unsure whether my choices are the best options:

1. CUCUMBERS & MELLONS:

A. ACK:

Substrate Drip Irrigation Systems (Drip & Creep) – (Squared Boxed Cage); OR

B. ACK:

DRF (Dynamic Root Floating Technique) – (Creep in Box) – (Squared Boxed Cage).

2. TOMATOS (ACK):

Substrate Drip Irrigation Systems (Drip & Creep) – (Long Box with supporting strings)

3. HERBS & CHILI PEPPERS (ACK):

Flood & Drain Technique (Ebb & Flow):ACK advised that they would custom make this system for me. Given the temperatures and rain here in BKK, I thought it might be a good idea to ask them to add a sunscreen to the top of the system to prevent direct sun exposure.

Your recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

jc

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, I've seen the systems at ACK, but know nothing about them. I use only buckets and bags in a 'run to waste', I haven't grown any lettuce or herbs, and will try my first melons in a month from now, in bags.

ACK was(is?) the only place that sold nutrients for other things besides lettuce, but 500Lt kit was the smallest size now around B.800., the full blown 'melon' is B.1,000., they do have a cuck/melon for B.800., these are the 500Lt size. Enough to make your stock solution A & B 5Lt. each x100 = 500Lt.or something like that.

Tomato and peppers easy way is A & B Grow and A & B Bloom/Fruit, big operations are way, way above how I grow.

I'm coming to BKK on the 4th or 5th to go to Wesco to get nutrients for my soon to be transplanted Ancho crop. Wesco sells bulk nutrients, the small kit was 10,000Lt., but their is more info on the formula I need to find out first before I buy.(2 months ago, the 10K kit was around B.2,500.)

My plan is 1. Central LAt Phrao, 2. Super Products, 3. Accent,(Hydro Magazines/books) 4. Wesco, 5. maybe

ACK if Wesco doesn't pan out. If you would like to come a long, PM me.

rice555

[damo]

To get the best performance from your nutrients you may wish to invest in a TDS/EC meter. http://aquagardening.com.au/products/ec.htm Total dissolved salt/ eletrical charge, As the nutrients you use for hydroponics are essentialy mineral salts, as they are they are dissolved in fresh water thier dissoloution creates energy which is read in EC/ eletrical charge and simmilarly read as PPM parts per million. Determining the optimum amount of nutrient for the type of plant you wish to grow in conjunction with the proper use of a TDS meter will be one way of enhancing yeild/ quality. You will have easy access to RO/reverse osmosis treated water in Thailand, this sould in theory be inert, eg 00,000ppm as it should be dovoid of all salts either good or bad due to the reverse osmosis process. This is different from the scheme water available here in Adelaide, South Australia which has a PPM of around 400PPM. The type of crop I enjoy growing typicly has a maximum nutrient tolerance of 1800PPM. By using RO to eliminate 400PPM of rubbish from the scheme water then I can offer and aditional 400PPM of nutrient(salts) to my plants instead of only 1400PPM plus 400PPM of nothing. I would recomend the truncheon stick.

In adddition to obtaining a TDS meter a ph meter is just as important. http://aquagardening.com.au/products/ph.htm Again you will have to do your homework as to which plant you wish to grow and what ph level they are best suited to. This may mean that you will have to do things such as running for eg, sweetcorn on a different system to tomato's. Also when you get your hands on a ph meter don't forget to get ph up and ph down solution as well as calibrating fluid.

Recirculating systems are'nt to bad, you will get better performance from a feed to waste allthough unless you are buying your nutrients in bulk you may prefer to opt for a recurculating, if you do, given the warm climate in Thailand make sure you add 5% fresh water at a minimum to you resevior daily!

*outdoor* hydroponic gardening in Thailand may not give yourself a faster yield allthough you should expect a better yield, don't be to concerned with micronutrients, don't outlay to much cash. There are a lot of gimmicks in the Hydro industry, especialy here in Oz but for thier worth they are better being avoided.

Check these guys out for some more info- http://www.tps.com.au/hydroponics/nutrient.htm

I love hydroponic gardening and unfortunatly have to say that with hydroponics, alot of what you ultimatly learn will be the product of trial and error, there is a lot of info on the internet now, when I started hydroponics I had never heard of the internet. I am short of time now and have to race off and do stuff.

One piece of advice that is very important and often disregarded is, One week prior to harvest, once you do your last flush, feed your plants with only 00,000PPM water-FRESH WATER. If you don't you will taste the nutrients in your crop and it will be alot more bitter that if they grow it off in the last week!

Good luck and have fun.

Damo.

[joeycano]

Thanks damo for the useful information. I will sure put it to use.

Also, I am wondering if anyone know where I can obtain Hydroton (aka Grow Rocks) in Bangkok???

Thanks

Edited August 28, 2008 by joeycano

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, the only place in BKK I saw an add for them is not in the magazine any more, but the P/N: 02 887 0971 or 01 808 3123.

The only other place I knew that had them was a place in CM, their contact info is on one of the other hydro threads, they also have rockwool.

[joeycano]

I was doing research on line and found two local dealers I thought to share with the T - V community. Maybe, I can get feedback on the products:

COCONUT COIR:

Super Peat

NIQUE INTER CORPORATION LTD.

193/133 24 floor Central city tower

Bangna-Trad Rd. Bangna Bangkok 10260

TEL : 66-2-7456882 FAX : 66-2-7456883

http://www.superpeat.com

Sales department : Mr.Nattawut T.

Mobile : 0066-8-14094966

Email : [email protected]

----------------------------------------------------

NUTRIENT DRUMS / BARRELS:

Pack Delta Public Company Limited

136-136/1 Moo 17 Bangplee Industrial Estate,

Bangsaothong, Samuthprakarn 10540 Thailand

Tel. 0 2315 1360, 0 2315 2289-90, Fax. 0 2315 1293

E-mail : [email protected]

Website: http://www.packdelta.com/Product.html

Please note Pack Delta also has 120 Liters Blue plastic drums although not mentioned in there website. They also deliver to BKK if you pay for delivery costs.

Edited August 30, 2008 by joeycano

[damo]

Cocconut Coir is great medium, It's all I use. A natural product that is easily biodegraded, or dug into gardens/ mulch once used. Resists acid and toxin build up.

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, how much for the 20Lt, 120Lt, blue containers? How much for the coir blocks?

I got 3 sets of 20lt, used for Bt.80 each and wide mouth barrels with cover an clamps for Bt.600(high$$).

The white and green bags are coir/with some fiber, Bt.90 each, gone up in price from last time. The rice bags are rice hulls, Bt.20 a bag, U-fill.

If I had a large system and was using coir, I would use the clean packaged stuff, but you can get bags at any roadside nursery here, it took the wife and I 10 Min's to sift a bag.

The price I gave for nutrients at ACK is now Bt.900 for 500Lt kit.

We will see how much the Wesco price has gone up for the 10,000lt. kit.

rice555

[joeycano]

Rice555,

I did not get a price for the 20 liters but did get the following prices:

If Delivered to BKK:

-1100 Baht for a new blue 120 Liters Open Top Drum with cover and belt;

-1,500 Baht for a new blue 200 Liters Open Top Drum with cover and belt.

If You Pick Up:

-750 Baht for a new blue 120 Liters Open Top Drum with cover and belt;

-1,130 Baht for a new blue 200 Liters Open Top Drum with cover and belt.

I am ordering two blue 120 liter drums. Can I ask you 2 questions:

- Would you recommend any smaller sizes?

- What do you use the 20 liter cans for?

I will post the prices for the coir blocks once I obtain the information. I've tried to email them but their email is not working. I did talk to sales today and they will email me the info soon. I will post the prices once I get the prices for the blocks.

I am trying to work on getting a suppler for rice hulls but have not yet been able to find one. I'll trying searching on line again to see what I can find.

jc

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, I try to keep it simple and the cost down, most of the rice hulls I use are charred from making charcoal(wife mostly) and use a mix of perliite, coir and sand in a in a small poly bag. I punch more holes in the bag, take the mix and plant the plant in a larger bag or bucket(bucket has holes drilled around the sides. I was using regular hulls an spent too much time pulling out rice sprouts. This only works on a run to waste system. It will clog a recirculating system. The bulk of my bags/buckets are filled with pieces of coconut husk.(cubed) This has worked the best for me, it's trial and error to see what works. If you look at my last post's picture's, the 20lt one, that is some Bhut Jolokia chilies plants and behind that row are some different types. I pruned the hel_l out of the fruit that shaded them(only 2-4hrs of direct sun) and was the only place I had to put them and keep them out of the wind and hard rain.

This is not my idea on how to plant, I saw it several times in Thai Ag magazines in commercial greenhouse growing operations.

In the other picture, the plug tray is my next project Ancho chillies.

The 3 garbage cans besides being the cats dinner tables are 1. tray substrate

2. mixed nutrients 3. coir.

The new issue of the Thai magazine that has the most info about Hydroponics in Thailand and other useful adds, the container is my Hi Tech Calibrated Measuring Device.(Crystal Light package) The calibrations are one(A & full and one to the bottom line for the old tank and one each to the top line for the garbage can, I mean bulk storage tank.

This is some of the harvest, the brown ones HOT and the oil gets on your skin very easy, not for anybody that burns a both ends after a Mexican Dinner, about 25 times hotter than a Jalapeno or two times hotter than any Thai verity . The red ones are twice as hot or more than the brown.

rice555

[joeycano]

I just received a reply from Ken SuperPeat's sales representative. he only gave me prices for a megaton. I have already emailed him asking for his prices per block.

Ken advised of the following:

We can supply Superpeat 100 MT / month.

- Superpeat price is 240USD/MT

- 1x40ft container can load 20-21MT

Super Peat Analysis

- PH: 5.5-6.5EC: 1-1.5

Block Specification :

-26x26x10 cm

-3kg/block Packing on pallet and wrap plastic

About other information you can see at http://www.superpeat.com

Regards

Ken

Edited September 2, 2008 by joeycano

[joeycano]

Ken at SuperPeat just informed that their bricks sell for 1 USD. Wow that seems cheap. I will place an order for a bunch.

regards Ken

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, what kind of system are you going to use? It can clog a recirculating system.

rice555

[joeycano]

Rice555,

I plan on using a "drip to waste" for things that climb:

- tomatoes;

- cucumbers;

- melons;

- egg plant.

and Ebb & Flow for things that don't climb.

For Ebb & Flow" I will try grow rocks if I can find them here. I appears that there are none in the LOS. The Dutch place indicated http://www.dutch-greenery.com that they don't have any but would be placing an order soon. They also indicated that their prices have significantly increased since the last time they sold them. They will send me a price list soon. As soon as I get the list I will post the info here for others to view.

Edited September 2, 2008 by joeycano

[joeycano]

FYI: Ken at SuperPeat who sells the Coir advised that they will mail you their products if you do a bank transfer. He requested my address in order to determine the total cost.

Edited September 5, 2008 by joeycano

[joeycano]

I just received a the following message. Does anyone else have any experience or advise regarding these nutrients:

I have registered my liquid chelated micronutrients to be sold in Thailand. These are HUMATE, NITROGEN, and AMINO ACID base.We have had very good results on all kinds of crops. I have used it in Thailand on few products and results are very good. Also I used some on our garden and results have been good so far. Being in liquid form they are highly effective. If you like do PM me. You may find more on our website http://www.4bgroup.com/fertilizerproducts.html You can collect a free sample of required nutrient in Bangkok.

Edited September 6, 2008 by joeycano

[rice555]

Hello joeycano, open your 2(A/:o 'grow' jars from ACK, of the two packs in each jar is one with a brown colored powder, the other jar blue, you already have it!

The A has the iron chelate, the B has the rest of the trace elements. That's what I got at Wesco thursday, trace elements and Megasol-K(0-0-50) soluble potassium sulphate and manganese as Mn-EDTA 13%, I already had the other things that make up the bulk of the nutrient solutions.(A&

Most of the things in the ad are for dirt, some could be used in hydro. There bug killer might work, but what's their price $$$?

Anybody else that is interested, Wesco has 'lots' of premixed water soluble fertilizers for 'dirt' and the stuff to mix your own, from 25Kg bags to 1 ton bags. Trace elements in 1Kg bags, he speaks good english and is very knowledgeable.

rice555

[joeycano]

I just wanted to give people an update on the availability and costs of Hydroton. Thanida Anantakul from Dutch Greenery (http://www.dutch-greenery.com/seeds.html#) sent me the following email:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you ask for the details of Hydroton on phone. We do supply 2 sizes:

1. 4-8 mm.(mixed)in 50 ltr. bag

2. 8-16 mm.(mixed) in 50 ltr.bag

Both are the same prize 500 B per bag

If you would like to purchase, please kindly fax the purchase order to 02-598-4912 and please confirm the pick-up date and time when would you like to go to our company.

We will deliver to your place if you order at the minimum of 20 bags.

If you would like to have further information , please let me know.

Regards,

Thanida Anantakul

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Yesterday, I picked up my order and the quality was perfect. It was mentioned that they have limited stock. if I recall correctly, I was was told that they have 90 liters left.

Someone else recommended buying Hydroton at JJ Market. However, I went there and was quoted 25 liters of Hydroton for 750 baht. Wow, what a price difference.

If you have been thinking about buying hydroton now is a good time.

I hope it helps.

Edited September 20, 2008 by joeycano

[Gary A]

I read an article criticizing the people selling nutrients. He seemed to think that the only one making any money was the guy selling supplies. He says that he uses triple 15 with Epsom salts. I know nothing about it so I don't know. I think the mixture was a tablespoon of the fertilizer and a quarter tablespoon of Epsom salts per gallon of water.

[joeycano]

Gary, its a bit more complicated that what the articles indicates. Maybe, a master hydroponic gardener will post their formula.

Gary, I would like to read the article you mention. Please post it so we can read.

[rice555]

Hello joeycano and Gary A, if 15-15-15 and pinch of that was the way to go, the Dutch would be doing it.

But yes it can work, I sort of started that way, then to hydroponic lettuce nutrients as thats all they had here.

I posted on one of the other hydro threads about tests ran at University of Florida, one with a raft system and I posted a link and a pictures, and peppers in NTF tubes. There are even hydro gardening web boards talking about this and saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Up to you, what ever lights your fire.

I don't think any of them are selling their vegetables/fruit on a large scale.

From the numbers I have for, say for tomatoes,(not talking PPM or EC) the supply house(US) I bought from had two formulas for tomato: 4-18 38, and 3-15-25, also a basic sump formula 10-8-22. If you watered down the 15-15-15 to get the N down to keep the plant from growing all stock and little leaf growth. I've got pictures of my first attempt, over 10', but the size of a soda straw.

If you play around with the numbers, the cost per amount of NPK is close, plus you get the TE's to with the hydro mix, or set up an aquaponics system.

The fruit I now grow is a lot better than what my first hydro was.

I have the standard A & B stock supply and mix up only 80L at a time, only have 11 plants growing now under one of them red berry trees from the shade tree thread but I did for rain protection.

The big Dutch growers are using an 8 tank injection system for nutrients(+Ph), all computer controlled. Do you think they would be doing that if the could get the same, using 15-15-15+1/4tps?

rice555

[Gary A]

I have done a lot of surfing and looking at MANY different articles regarding hydroponic gardening. I probably should have bookmarked some of the more interesting articles but I didn't. Actually the more I read the more confused I get. It looks like most of the commercial growers have their own secret processes and formulas. One of the most interesting techniques is to use round 4 inch PVC with "T" fittings spaced about every 24 inches. Little baskets fit into the open "T" and the water is constantly circulated. One barrel sits high and the pump in in the lower barrel that the water drains into. The water is pumped into the higher barrel and gravity does the circulation. The water level stays constant due to the fact that the water seeks its own level. The system is easily expanded and can be made into any shape wanted. This method seems a lot more simple than tanks.

[rice555]

Hello Gary A, 4" PVC is a hobby toy $$$$$$. If you like to play with things and tinker around, it's what the Dr. ordered. Small PVC(2.5") NTF is a different story, but the bigger the the 4" system gets, the bigger supply tank needs to be. Remember you need to top off with water and bring your nutrients EC/PPM up daily. For the price of a PVC(20 plants) system, you can you can do 60 bags in a 'run to waste' system. Thats bags, coconut pieces and nutrients for 40 days vs just the PVC price, not the stand or pump you'll need too. There are other things you'll need for both systems, so I didn't figure them in. The R-2-W is Bt.1,400, what's your gue$$ just for the PVC parts for the system?

The picture is a recirculating system, you need to put the the plastic on a grade so it will drain at one end, same as most systems. Plants are grown in net pots or rockwool blocks sitting on the bottom. You only need the plastic, string & bubble level, rake and a stapler. All systems need plant support, thats a given.

Also not talked is the supply line.(s)

The picture is from a commercial greenhouse growing sweet peppers.

After talking with the guy from Wesco in BKK, and buying what I didn't have, here's the secret formula:

A. grams

1. calcium nitrate 1000 gm

2. Wesco Fe APN 60 gm

B.

1. potassium nitrate 600 gm

2. magnesium sulphate 250 gm

3. mono potassium phosphate(MKP) 150 gm

4. mono ammonium phosphate(MAP) 50 gm

5. Wesco Nispray DTPA 6%+TE 15 gm

6. Mn EDTA 13%` 10 gm

7. potassium sulfate 0-0-50 250 gm

More fruit, less work. I is stupid, so I use the KISS principle.

rice555

[rice555]

I for got part 2 of the secret formula, for greens/lettuce omit B-7, thats no potassium sulfate.(0-0-50 250gm)

rice555

[kloghead]

Ken at SuperPeat just informed that their bricks sell for 1 USD. Wow that seems cheap. I will place an order for a bunch.

regards Ken

I talked to Ken and he will contact me tomorrow regarding him selling less than a ton of bricks. I'm not holding my breath but ya never know

EC of 1-1.5 is kinda high...That's 700-1050 PPM by my reckoning. Did he mention if they would wash the salt out even for the small amounts such as we want???? If not, I guess it's back to the shop for the dirty coco...

[joeycano]

According to the SuperPeat Website EC is about 1 - 2 ms / cm. I thought it was fine for hydroponics. Yes / No?

Their website does indicate: "we can make EC as you order".

What proper EC is correct? Anyone know?

If it helps to get SuperPeat with the right EC I am willing to place an order with you to get the right EC.

Edited September 23, 2008 by joeycano

[joeycano]

So help get a right answer I did some research on mS/cm and found the following in hopes of someone telling me what the proper EC should be in SuperPeat:

"The preferred unit of EC is deciSiemens per metre - dS/m or dS m

^-1

. Other units are microSiemens per centimetre (abbreviated

m

S/cm or

m

S cm

^-1

) and milliSiemens per centimetre (mS/cm or mS cm

^-1

). Conversions between the units are listed below.

A Siemen is an inverse ohm (also called a mho), a measure of electrical resistance. The distance term (centimetre or metre) comes from the way conductivity is measured. Classically this is done between two platinum electrodes of known surface area and a known distance apart.

• 1 dS/m = 1 mS/cm
  
  
• 1 dS/m = 1 000
  m
  S/cm
  
  
• 1 000
  m
  S/cm = 1 mS/cm
  
  

The EC of distilled or deionised water is approximately 0.002 dS/m because most of the salts have been removed. The EC of seawater is approximately 58 dS/m."

To be more correct the SuperPeat website indicates that the EC is:

1 - 2 mS / cm

Edited September 23, 2008 by joeycano

[kloghead]

mS/cm EC CF ppm 500 (TDS)) ppm 700 (TDS)

0.1 = 0.1 = 1 = 50 = 70

1.0 = 1.0 = 10 = 500 = 700

2.0 = 2.0 = 20 = 1000 = 1400

I've had problems with coco more than .5 EC...If the nutes you use don't contribute to raising the EC way too much then it would prob be OK.

I try to start with coco which is no more than 1 EC -- preferably .5 or less. Adding nutrients raises this further of course. The crappiest coco I've seen here hasn't been more than 1.8 - 2.0 and that took many flushings to get down to .5 and SuperPeat is saying theirs is 1 to 2 EC, which is too high for me because it will need to be washed. So... back to square one.

I've found some coco which was as low as .3 EC (which is almost NO salt) but I can't get that product consistently.

I'll call Ken tomorrow and see what amount they will sell washed to no more than .5