Ninja 250 Vs Cbr 150

[bobbin]

Well, the guys who are proud new owners of the just released (in Thailand) Ninja 250 are reporting their initial riding impressions, but are starting to get a bit defensive in response to some posters suggesting that the Cbr 150 still offers more bang for your buck.

Like many here riding the smaller machines, I was excited by the first reports that Kawasaki would be offering the Ninja 250. As the story developed and the price of it became more obvious, my enthusiasm waned. Now we are being told that the current all-in price of 150K will likely appreciate to 160K very soon.

That price range alone is a "deal-breaker" for me. In the real world we regular folks are always having to weigh the pros and cons of potential purchases. For me that means I won't be riding a Ninja 250 any time soon.

I bought my Cbr 150 in Dec. 2002. One of the first on the streets of Pattaya. Although it has only 20K km. on the clock, it is probably only worth a maximum of 30K in the second-hand market. That would mean coming up with another 120-130K to begin riding the Ninja. It's not worth it. It's not that much more bike for the additional investment.

I have been to Chiang Mai and back on my bike. No problems doing 100-120kph all day.

Would I like a few more cc's? Sure. Will I pay 150-160K for a few more cc's? No.

As for performance... yes the Ninja is a quicker machine. But not that much quicker. I have seen 155kph on my clock. Long straightaway, no wind and a 68kg. rider. The bigger guys might be happier with the Ninja and benefit from more engine but aren't going to run away from me. I will be right on their tail. Unless they are crazy!

At this point I am more interested in that Honda 250 single-cylinder naked bike that can be imported from Malaysia for approximately 80K. If that pans out to be easily doable, that will be next machine for me.

[PeaceBlondie]

As the British teacher said - eating a chalk sandwich and writing with cheese on the board - it's all hoarses for coarses, or roundabouts and wheelies. But I am with you on the price difference. Puts the entire discussion into different threads. I got tired of waiting to see if the price of the Ninja 250R would be 145K or 155K, and replaced my 2003 CBR150 with a 2008 model (and promptly crashed it ). Is it worth more than double? Only if you have the dosh. I am all doshed out.

[Bard]

Sorry to hear about your crashed bike PeaceBlondie, better luck next time.

The price for the Ninja in September is 139.900 or 140K in reality, after it will climb to 144k which Kawa confirmed for me.

Just to try to explain the difference in value between these two bikes I will pull up some specs and compare it.

First of all the CBR 150 R is a bored up CBR 125 R, now before flaming me look at the specs for the bikes including the stroke is exactly the same and all the details are the same except the boring and cams.

Let us first compare the most obvious the engine (value vise since that is the topic),

Honda CBR 150 R vs Ninja 250 R

1; single cylinder vs a parallel twin, a twin is much more expensive to make

2; Carburettor vs Electronic Fuel Injection, this would in US raise the price on the Ninja with 500$

3; 17 HP vs 33 HP

4; 0.1478 HP/Kg vs 0.2171 HP/Kg

5; Compression 11.0:1 vs 11.6:1

Chassis and dimensions (value vise)

Honda CBR vs Ninja 250 R

1; Aluminium square frame vs Steel Diamond tube

2; 31mm fork vs 37mm fork

3; 109mm front suspesion travel vs 120mm

4; Monoshock rear suspesion vs Bottom-link uni-trak pre gas charged shock with 5 way preload adj.

5; 120mm rear suspesion travel vs 130mm

6; 276mm brake diameter vs 290mm petal disc

7; Exhaust Painted steel with crome coated muffler vs Stainless steel 2 in 1

Physical Measures (value vise larger is obviously more expensive to make)

Honda vs Ninja

1; Seat height 776mm vs 790mm

2; Overall length 1,920mm vs 2,085

3; Width 625mm vs 715mm

4; Wheelbase 1,294mm vs 1,400mm

So if we remove the 500$ cost of EFI like in US the Bike would be around 120k in Thailand, we change to a single cylinder engine like the 250 in Malaysia, You're down to around 100k. The other added values as frame, suspension, exhaust and size is also not cheap. Plus remember the tax man has a good bit of the bike as well, so the 80K Malaysian bike could easily be 100 - 120k here still with carb and single cylinder and that would be expensive.

The reason I choose the Ninja was first of all I don't feel it's expensive, secondly it's a bigger bike suiting my 5'11" much better, thirdly I like it suits me and I don't like single cylinder vibrators, even the twin have vibrations I expect but much less than a single so it is more comfortable for me.

Now I never said, and I still have not seen any Ninja owners in the forum anyone flaming the 150 for not being a lot of bang for the buck. I have seen 150 owners flaming the 250 for too expensive, we will be right on the tail, It won't be much better and so on. The bikes are in two separate categories so they are not comparable at all.

One is a bored up 125 small bike the other is a medium sized bike and obviously more stable. One is more powerful per weight so no you won't be right behind there tail, it will accelerate faster and has higher top speed however you look into it, so what you still have a bike fitting your need, which is cool. Enjoy it, I would be happy to drive with 150 owners on trips enjoying the ride and none of the show off crap.

[Richard-BKK]

I personally want to introduce a few more competitors for the up-to 250cc motorcycles, the Honda CBF-250, which more and more people report to be on sale at a dealer in Samut Prakan, and the Tiger Boxer 250RS.

This two single cylinder engine all-rounders would probably be no match for a Ninja, but personally I would probably be happy with a all-round 250cc with a modest price. I was told that the Honda CBF-250 is going for just under the 100,000 Baht, and I belief that Tiger was talking about a price of 70 to 80,000 Baht.

[bobbin]

Before we get too much further into the thread I would just like to say that the only negative about the Ninja 250 for me is it's price.

If it had come priced in the 100-110K range i would be down there ordering one tommorow! That is figuring up from 63-65K for the Cbr 150 and 85K for the Phantom.

Naturally, since I have decided that the Ninja is too much money, I will support my current machine. And I made the point that for being so much more money, it just isn't that much more bike. i've read several good reviews on the Ninja and it is a good machine. The question then becomes...how much better than the Cbr?

We'll probably have to wait for road reports involving both machines to get much more detail about real world usabilities. If both machines can ride together (no crazies ) then how much better off will I be spending alot more $$?

Bard

Good breakdown on the differences. Thanks.

[dotcom]

I've asked how rough the Kawa idles. No one is willing to say.

[Richard-BKK]

Please not introduce the Honda Phantom into this discussion, the Honda Phantom is not even comparable with the Honda CBR-150R.

[dave_boo]

Sorry to hear about your crashed bike PeaceBlondie, better luck next time.

The price for the Ninja in September is 139.900 or 140K in reality, after it will climb to 144k which Kawa confirmed for me.

Just to try to explain the difference in value between these two bikes I will pull up some specs and compare it.

First of all the CBR 150 R is a bored up CBR 125 R, now before flaming me look at the specs for the bikes including the stroke is exactly the same and all the details are the same except the boring and cams.

Let us first compare the most obvious the engine (value vise since that is the topic),

Honda CBR 150 R vs Ninja 250 R

1; single cylinder vs a parallel twin, a twin is much more expensive to make

2; Carburettor vs Electronic Fuel Injection, this would in US raise the price on the Ninja with 500$

3; 17 HP vs 33 HP

4; 0.1478 HP/Kg vs 0.2171 HP/Kg

5; Compression 11.0:1 vs 11.6:1

Do you wish to talk about specs or performance. I realise that performance isn't free, but come on look at the things that cost not the results of those items. I'm also concerned that there has been much complaining about the increase of $500 for the FI model. Well, what about the exchange rate? That has been murdering import prices anyways. Losing 25% of the value against the THB doesn't help out.

Chassis and dimensions (value vise)

Honda CBR vs Ninja 250 R

1; Aluminium square frame vs Steel Diamond tube

2; 31mm fork vs 37mm fork

3; 109mm front suspesion travel vs 120mm

4; Monoshock rear suspesion vs Bottom-link uni-trak pre gas charged shock with 5 way preload adj.

5; 120mm rear suspesion travel vs 130mm

6; 276mm brake diameter vs 290mm petal disc

7; Exhaust Painted steel with crome coated muffler vs Stainless steel 2 in 1

I don't understand your first point. Should the steel frame be more expensive than the aluminium one? And economies of scale means I doubt there's more than 50 THB difference between those forks and shocks. Brakes are going to be dead even unless that extra 14mm of steel is so expensive. Now that I think about it, the Ninja's brakes should be cheaper since there's less mass there! Granted the exhaust system probably adds a nice chunk, but really how much?

Physical Measures (value vise larger is obviously more expensive to make)

Honda vs Ninja

1; Seat height 776mm vs 790mm

2; Overall length 1,920mm vs 2,085

3; Width 625mm vs 715mm

4; Wheelbase 1,294mm vs 1,400mm

Bigger is more expensive, but you're comparing a steel frame to an aluminum one. That's a bit disingenious.

So if we remove the 500$ cost of EFI like in US the Bike would be around 120k in Thailand, we change to a single cylinder engine like the 250 in Malaysia, You're down to around 100k. The other added values as frame, suspension, exhaust and size is also not cheap. Plus remember the tax man has a good bit of the bike as well, so the 80K Malaysian bike could easily be 100 - 120k here still with carb and single cylinder and that would be expensive.

Compare the here and now rather than speculating. Plus, the mantra from everyone is that the tax has been repealed for up to 250cc bikes. Can anyone compare the taxes % between the two bikes? However, I'm still asking, how doe I justify buying a bike that costs 114% but only offering an increase in performance of 17%?

The reason I choose the Ninja was first of all I don't feel it's expensive, secondly it's a bigger bike suiting my 5'11" much better, thirdly I like it suits me and I don't like single cylinder vibrators, even the twin have vibrations I expect but much less than a single so it is more comfortable for me.

Now I never said, and I still have not seen any Ninja owners in the forum anyone flaming the 150 for not being a lot of bang for the buck. I have seen 150 owners flaming the 250 for too expensive, we will be right on the tail, It won't be much better and so on. The bikes are in two separate categories so they are not comparable at all.

One is a bored up 125 small bike the other is a medium sized bike and obviously more stable. One is more powerful per weight so no you won't be right behind there tail, it will accelerate faster and has higher top speed however you look into it, so what you still have a bike fitting your need, which is cool. Enjoy it, I would be happy to drive with 150 owners on trips enjoying the ride and none of the show off crap.

I don't remember anyone flaming the Ninja for being to little bang for the buck. I, and several others, asked wether it was a cost effective upgrade over the previous locally produced pocket sports bike. I do remember there being quite a tiff after it was show that a CBR would stay right on a Ninja up into insanely stupid for Thailand speeds after a forum member blithely stated that the CBR would be getting smaller and smaller in the mirrors.

How can you put them in different classes? From the size position they're in the same class. If you consider a 20% increase (in bore size that the CBR 150 has over its little brother) enough to keep a bike in a 'smaller' class let's look at some other figures (provided courtesy of your post).

CBR 150's disadvantage to Ninja 250

Seat height 2% lower

Ovrall Lenght 8% shorter

Width 13% narrower

Wheelbase 8% shorter

So, applying the same rule you wish to apply to the CBR, the Ninja still falls into the small bike catergory. Sorry mate. You've seen the video clips. Does a 1 second difference mean that a CBR wouldn't be right on the Ninja's ass?

On the other hand, I doubt this debate will be settled UNTIL we have two riders of equal talent meet and settle it. I'm all for riding with anyone, but it does seem like there's a lot of thin skinned new bike owners. I haven't seen anyone call anyone stupid for buying a Ninja 250, just asking it buying one is the right choice for a CBR 150R owner. There does seem to be a lot of outburst by Ninja owners though over preceived insults, raising the saying "Methinks thou doth protest too much".

[LivinLOS]

On the other hand, I doubt this debate will be settled UNTIL we have two riders of equal talent meet and settle it. I'm all for riding with anyone, but it does seem like there's a lot of thin skinned new bike owners.

And / or thin skinned old bike owners..

Everyone loves thier new toy.. Everyone who has spent about double to get a larger and more cc machine will feel its 'a different class'.. I am sure a CBR owner would think his CBR is 'in a different class' from a Sonic.. But a well ridden sonic (not with my 110kg lump in it admittedly ) would be 'right on its arse' too for most of the time, in normal Thailand use.

I think you would be mad to say that a baby Ninja wouldnt be a substantial upgrade over a baby CBR.. Now the relative merits or quantifying the value of that upgrade is nigh on impossible.. A big guy like me is going to value any and all size gains much more than someone in the 5,10 and under range, a high traffic rider will want the most maneuverable / narrow / useable machine, lets face it if someones fairly well off then the downside of cost and budget shrinks to insignificance, so its all relative, its all personal.

In the words of Rodney king cant we all just get along !!

[dotcom]

Great point Livin. A CBR might be waaaayyyyyyyyy too big for a local guy. Most of them probably.

For us big ass falang the Ninja 250 is a great alternative.

I'm keepin my CB400. It's paid for.

[bobbin]

I actually started the thread so that we could "discuss" the relative merits of the 2 machines without taking the "Ninja" threads OT.

And of course choices like this are completely personal.

But.....motorcycles are commodities. i.e. How much motorcycle am I getting for my money?

We Cbr owners made our choice. Probably several years ago now and with no alternative choices. The Ninja owners have made their choice. A few days ago now. Excited early-adopters. We are interested in their feedback.

The question arises more for someone just walking into the showroom wanting a new "baby sportbike". Then it becomes a fair topic. I spend this much and get this much bike. I spend that much more and I get more bike. Is it worth it? This is not a problem for those with the "readies" to buy whatever they want but many in the real world have had learn to do a cost/benefit analysis.

The Ninja has 66% more engine. Increase the price of the Cbr by that percentage and you arrive at a price-point of approximately 105K. At that price I am a buyer. Any more and I start asking this fair question. Is it worth it?

[PeaceBlondie]

I once worked for a guy who said - erroneously - that it only costs ten percent more to go first class. On motorcycle displacement sizes, it does not cost 66% more to get a bike with a bigger engine. Even in Thailand, an FZ1 only costs 31% more than an FZ6, but the displacement increase is the same 67% difference that we are using in this comparison.

Category? By Western standards, anything under 500 cc is eensy-teensy. The guy at the Hein Gericke shop in Scotland laughed at the idea of a CBR150R being a sportbike, and the Ducati people in Texas were flabbergasted that I was riding something so small. However, the big differences in Asia are between 150 cc and 250 cc, between 17 hp and 33 hp. Here, they are too different in size, power and price to compete against each other. We may as well compare them to RichardBKK's 1098S or a BMW K1200.

[LivinLOS]

But.....motorcycles are commodities. i.e. How much motorcycle am I getting for my money?

You would find a fully booked, plated and running Bandit 4 for 55 - 60k.. I sold a peachy Baby Blade (400RR) for about 60 a year or so ago, a peachy one in all origional non molested bodywork.. I recently saw a really attractive streetfightered CBR400, done with some taste and looking very useable, ridden locally.. I cant imagine it cost him more than 50 - 60. There was a peach of a CB400S advertised for 80 for months on here.

Now a nay sayer might claim theres book worries, I say, if the book matches 100%, model, age, frame and engine numbers, color, etc.. Its got a history of past owners in the book... Go put it in your name, if the Transport Office gives it the OK thats enough for me. I sleep easy enough on that.

You would get 2 of these bikes for one Ninja.. Sure they aint new, sure theres no warranty, sure your gonna pay more and work harder sourcing bits, but for my money its the 'value choice'.. But everyones different, some see more value in that brand new feeling, the knowledge they can walk into a Kwaker dealer and get bits, the support chain. I understand all those things, we each have different priorities, me being big framed drives some of mine. The kwaker is going to run close to 150k all in, I was saw a plated ZX9R for only a couple of k over that !! Now sure, who can use all that power here its running costs are higher, but are we after speed machines or all rounders or what ??

Simply put I dont think theres any 'right answer' as long as your happy with your compromises then great.

[jackcorbett]

I like the looks of that Honda 250 F. Granted, I've read a lot of great stuff about the Ninja 250 R. And its styling makes me want to go out and buy one right now whether I need it or not. But my Yamaha Nouvo allows me to ride two up easily and comfortably. It allows me to put all kinds of grocery bags under the seat and suspended from that hook between my legs. It also allows a comfortable upright driving position. But if I lived somewhere with very different driving conditions than Pattaya, I'd be taking a good hard look at getting that Ninja 250 R.

From what I've gleaned off the internet the Honda 250 F has 21 horsepower, which is 4 more than a Phantom. So if the fuel injected Ninja is putting out 33, it's not even in the same class as the Ninja. For one thing we are talking about 80 miles an hour tops versus say 100 or so.

But that 250 F looks more like that all around motorcycle I was harping on a few months back. First, note that it has an upright riding position. Note also that it has a fairly long seat that seems much more suitable for two up riding than either the Ninja or the CBR 150. I'd say that more than 80 % of the time I've got my girlfriend riding behind me. So when I showed her a picture of that outstandingly well styled Ninja her first comment was, "Where do I sit? The gas tank?"

But reading back on a few web sites about the 250 F I've read that some people have encountered some reliability problems. One poster reported chain and sprocket types of problems while a couple of others mentioned "clock problems" which I took to be instrument problems pertaining to perhaps the speedometer and tach, possibly gas gauge. Also, the 250 F to my knowledge has not yet come out on the Thai market. And perhaps it never will. But if it did, I'd infinitely prefer it to a Phantom. For one thing I really do not like the cruiser style at all which to me is like laying back in an easy chair and being expected to have good control of the handlebars, brakes, gear shift etc. The Cruiser laid back style of driving for me simply does not lend itself to that feeling of being one with the bike and on top of it and one's driving. I also don't like all that excess chrome that needs to be polished so often. So for me, that 250 F looks the way a motorcycle should look.

Edited August 31, 2008 by jackcorbett

[dotcom]

The question arises more for someone just walking into the showroom wanting a new "baby sportbike". Then it becomes a fair topic. I spend this much and get this much bike. I spend that much more and I get more bike. Is it worth it? This is not a problem for those with the "readies" to buy whatever they want but many in the real world have had learn to do a cost/benefit analysis.

I am waiting for the day I can roll into the main Kawa dealer on Rama 9 road & test ride this bike - before making my decision to purchase.

Do you know when that day might come?

I assume (seeing as how this is Thailand) that day is NEVER.

A demonstrator is not part of Thai marketing business model. We will show you some coloured pictures. You pay us some money (non refundable) & we will call you if & when your bike comes off the assembly line.

I am not complaining mind you. It's the way business is done here. Now if I want to buy a bike such as Livin LoS mentions I can test ride it all I want to. I did go look at that version S. reckon the engine was knackered. 10-15 to repair that. It was a sweet bike otheerwise. Legit green book.

[Bard]

Do you wish to talk about specs or performance. I realise that performance isn't free, but come on look at the things that cost not the results of those items. I'm also concerned that there has been much complaining about the increase of $500 for the FI model. Well, what about the exchange rate? That has been murdering import prices anyways. Losing 25% of the value against the THB doesn't help out.

First, no I don't need to discuss the specs nor performance it's pretty clear it's different. We talked about value...

Well, I just quote the price difference it would be with or without EFI, the only place they did a study was done was in US.

I don't understand your first point. Should the steel frame be more expensive than the aluminium one? And economies of scale means I doubt there's more than 50 THB difference between those forks and shocks. Brakes are going to be dead even unless that extra 14mm of steel is so expensive. Now that I think about it, the Ninja's brakes should be cheaper since there's less mass there! Granted the exhaust system probably adds a nice chunk, but really how much?

-Value vise for the biker you get a much more sturdy and stable frame from a diamond steel frame than an aluminium square box one. So as a biker you will benefit from that. Value for the biker... Hence I put it in

-Bigger shocks and forks gives a more stable ride, value for the rider

-Breaks well bigger discs are bigger breaking pads, bigger breaking power, value for the rider (less mass on the Ninja???)

-The exhaust added for me for an aftermarked, made in USA 525$, you can get aftermarked exhaust for the Honda for how much I am not sure???

Bigger is more expensive, but you're comparing a steel frame to an aluminum one. That's a bit disingenious.

I don't understand why's that? (please see above) Bigger also demands bigger shocks, more fairings, more of everything. Plus a larger bike is more pleasant for an adult rider as me with 5'11" , so it's of more value for me as a rider.

Compare the here and now rather than speculating. Plus, the mantra from everyone is that the tax has been repealed for up to 250cc bikes. Can anyone compare the taxes % between the two bikes? However, I'm still asking, how doe I justify buying a bike that costs 114% but only offering an increase in performance of 17%?

Like you say I have no clue about the tax for this bike, nor the markup so it is hard to go in and debate it before we get other 250cc's around here. But let us compare it from Europe ok because in US I can't find the CBR only in Europe, so that is fair enough?

The Honda CBR 125 R which as you can see is the same bike as the 150 except the bore is different cost 2,650 UK Pound Sterling again this one has EFI in Europe.

The Kawasaki Ninja 250 cost 3,299 UK Pound sterling.

So in Europe with EFI the price is approximately 25% more for the 250 (I round of figures here to simplify)? So if the price in Thailand is say approximately 115% more you can imagine where the money went, Mr. Tax man... So to justify it, is just to either accept that the 150 probably is near no taxed, and the 250 is heavily taxed.

Is this right? No but there is little we can do about it. I will pay it because I don't feel it is expensive, it does not hurt my wallet enough for me to feel robbed, I know it's the taxman who makes most of the money.

I don't remember anyone flaming the Ninja for being to little bang for the buck. I, and several others, asked wether it was a cost effective upgrade over the previous locally produced pocket sports bike. I do remember there being quite a tiff after it was show that a CBR would stay right on a Ninja up into insanely stupid for Thailand speeds after a forum member blithely stated that the CBR would be getting smaller and smaller in the mirrors.

Well, if say an object is travelling at say 155 km/h and the other does 165 km/h will the slower moving object become smaller in the mirror of the faster? What is the big deal with someone stating that? If you told me your car which had say a top speed which was e.g. 10 km/h more than mine and around 1 second faster 0 - 60 would make my car become smaller and smaller in the mirror, I would say yes, certainly it would and not see the big deal in it.

How can you put them in different classes? From the size position they're in the same class. If you consider a 20% increase (in bore size that the CBR 150 has over its little brother) enough to keep a bike in a 'smaller' class let's look at some other figures (provided courtesy of your post).

CBR 150's disadvantage to Ninja 250

Seat height 2% lower

Ovrall Lenght 8% shorter

Width 13% narrower

Wheelbase 8% shorter

You just said it buddy, the 150 is smaller. All the people from Europe here grew up with this system, Moped, Light (small) Motorbike, and Motorbike, Now it's segged even more. It's now Moped, Small Motorbike, Medium Motorbike and unrestricted motorbike.

-Moped is 50cc and restricted hp and top speed

-Light motorbike is up to 125 with restriction on hp and top speed (16 years age, and light license)

-Medium motorbike is any bike larger than the 125 class but with restricted hp (18 years age and license)

-Unrestricted - says for itself (21 years I think age and license)

Since the 150 is just a bored up version of the 125 and it has the same frame, as this light or small motorbike, which reflects why I call it a different class bike. I would also call a 400cc a different class than a 250cc.

So, applying the same rule you wish to apply to the CBR, the Ninja still falls into the small bike catergory. Sorry mate. You've seen the video clips. Does a 1 second difference mean that a CBR wouldn't be right on the Ninja's ass?

-First the bike falls into the 250cc category, the 150cc in the 150cc category.

-Yes it does I am afraid, but let us use this equation to test it D = (Vf + Vo) * t/2 and we accept the two movies as the example of 0-60 in 7 seconds vs 8 seconds, The 0-60 in 7 sec. would use 94.5 metres to get to 60 mph while the 8 second bike would use 108 meters to make the same run, if you then ask what speed would the Ninja have at 108 meter when the CBR would reach 60, it would if we calculate the velocity still be constant to end up at 65.5 mph, so when the CBR reaches it's 60 mph The Ninja would be at 65.5 mph, so it would not be on the Ninjas ass as the equation show us.

On the other hand, I doubt this debate will be settled UNTIL we have two riders of equal talent meet and settle it. I'm all for riding with anyone, but it does seem like there's a lot of thin skinned new bike owners. I haven't seen anyone call anyone stupid for buying a Ninja 250, just asking it buying one is the right choice for a CBR 150R owner. There does seem to be a lot of outburst by Ninja owners though over preceived insults, raising the saying "Methinks thou doth protest too much".

I think the entire debate is silly to be honest, I also do not see any New Ninja owners being thin skinned, I saw a lot of reaction on Richards funny comment that is all. Then this tread started with value vs bike.

That is subjective, I feel it's money's worth someone don't. Like I said I would be more happy to ride with 150 owners and enjoy riding instead of the debate 250 vs 150.

Value is subjective, I feel the value added features is within my economical comfort zone, others might not and there is nothing wrong with that.

Happy riding everyone

[BlackArtemis]

I hate to be that guy, but dam_n 14-60k A 400-600cc bike could be had with reg and green book for that...

Get the CBR and modify it a bit, sure you might not make up the difference, but when you are comparing the bang for the buck factor, it's impossible not to throw in 400-600 cc bikes against the ninja. The whole draw of the CBR was that for 65k or so you had a brand new legal bike with some oomph, it wasn't in the price range to be compared against bigger bikes.

[Bard]

I hate to be that guy, but dam_n 14-60k A 400-600cc bike could be had with reg and green book for that...

Get the CBR and modify it a bit, sure you might not make up the difference, but when you are comparing the bang for the buck factor, it's impossible not to throw in 400-600 cc bikes against the ninja. The whole draw of the CBR was that for 65k or so you had a brand new legal bike with some oomph, it wasn't in the price range to be compared against bigger bikes.

You are absolutely right, you can very well get a legal used 400 or 600 which is much more bike than the 250, 100% correct. It is also correct with the CBR you have a very good bike which follows traffic nicely.

Let me try to explain why it is my subjective decision, I have had 600's, even had a Kawa 750 Turbo in the 90's however I learned a valuable lesson which is I am insane on those bikes. I drive them waaaaaaaaay to fast, and it's not worth the risk. I wanted this bike because it will make things more sane again.

So yes, I do absolutely agree you can get very good other bikes for the money's worth and if you want something faster or bigger I would not buy it. The 250 is NOT a very fast bike, it will travel nicely and has a larger frame and less vibration than the CBR 150 which suits me fine, hence why I bought it. If I was lighter than I am (90 kg) and shorter 5'11" I would seriously consider the CBR 150 R myself, because as many says it is a lot of bike for the buck. I tested the CBR 150 R for 2 days (borrowed from a buddy), and concluded I am a bit to heavy for the bike, plus it vibrates a bit more than I like. Then I was in South Africa on my way to work and tested another friends new Ninja 250 R and I immediately liked the bike, I fitted in nicely and it was enough power for my fat-ass to get around without killing myself. Then I saw the price in Thailand and it won't break the bank, so I ordered it...

For me the bike is only a toy, if I go right over to the shop to buy something I use my wifes Fino, or my car, I use my car a lot, but now with my new toy I will enjoy riding as it is my hobby again. I will mod a little with it just because I like to fiddle with things, and I will use it at Bira to improve my riding skills and take it to the max there. When there is no more to improve on my skills with this bike it's probably time to step back up again to a 600, if I think I can be responsible on the road with one.

[BlackArtemis]

Hey well, if you got the cash, and you are happy do it. You buy toys to make yourself happy, not convince people on the internet

[Bard]

Hey well, if you got the cash, and you are happy do it. You buy toys to make yourself happy, not convince people on the internet

Haha you're right there, I don't need to convince anyone, I am convinced and can't wait to get the heck back home from this job, so I can play on the playground with the rest

[dave_boo]

Do you wish to talk about specs or performance. I realise that performance isn't free, but come on look at the things that cost not the results of those items. I'm also concerned that there has been much complaining about the increase of $500 for the FI model. Well, what about the exchange rate? That has been murdering import prices anyways. Losing 25% of the value against the THB doesn't help out.

First, no I don't need to discuss the specs nor performance it's pretty clear it's different. We talked about value...

Well, I just quote the price difference it would be with or without EFI, the only place they did a study was done was in US.

I don't understand your first point. Should the steel frame be more expensive than the aluminium one? And economies of scale means I doubt there's more than 50 THB difference between those forks and shocks. Brakes are going to be dead even unless that extra 14mm of steel is so expensive. Now that I think about it, the Ninja's brakes should be cheaper since there's less mass there! Granted the exhaust system probably adds a nice chunk, but really how much?

-Value vise for the biker you get a much more sturdy and stable frame from a diamond steel frame than an aluminium square box one. So as a biker you will benefit from that. Value for the biker... Hence I put it in

I doubt that a 17 HP or a 33 HP bike has enough torque to bend up a 1 1/4" tubing bike. Hence, the lighter weight given by the aluminum would be a bonus in my book. Add in the fact that the more expensive material is used in the cheaper machine.......

-Bigger shocks and forks gives a more stable ride, value for the rider

That they do. However, disregarding the minimal cost to upgrade is the added stiffness really necessary in bikes that way under 350 lbs? I understand on the track you want ultimate stiffness. Who's going to realise that added stiffness on the street?

-Breaks well bigger discs are bigger breaking pads, bigger breaking power, value for the rider (less mass on the Ninja???)

Perhaps if the Ninja wasn't so porky it wouldn't require such large brakes? Also, I can easily lock up my brakes; in fact the rear is disturbingly easy to do so and if I wanted to be a hooligan I could do stoppies. I don't know if the same can be said of the Ninja's brakes, but assuming it can be let's just agree that the brakes on both are sufficient.

-The exhaust added for me for an aftermarked, made in USA 525$, you can get aftermarked exhaust for the Honda for how much I am not sure???

Luckily I know the answer to that: 4 600 THB (139 USD). And that's stainless also. I'm assuming it gets rid of the CAT, since it weighs only 2,5 kilos versus the stock's 10 kilo from what I've read.

Bigger is more expensive, but you're comparing a steel frame to an aluminum one. That's a bit disingenious.

I don't understand why's that? (please see above) Bigger also demands bigger shocks, more fairings, more of everything. Plus a larger bike is more pleasant for an adult rider as me with 5'11" , so it's of more value for me as a rider.

I can not tell someone what is more pleasing to them. That's why I was sticking to subjective items rather than objective. I understand that some vehicles have an intagabile appeal (BMW 2002 turbos for me!), but I had understood that this thread was going to be a purely objective exercise.

Compare the here and now rather than speculating. Plus, the mantra from everyone is that the tax has been repealed for up to 250cc bikes. Can anyone compare the taxes % between the two bikes? However, I'm still asking, how doe I justify buying a bike that costs 114% but only offering an increase in performance of 17%?

Like you say I have no clue about the tax for this bike, nor the markup so it is hard to go in and debate it before we get other 250cc's around here. But let us compare it from Europe ok because in US I can't find the CBR only in Europe, so that is fair enough?

The Honda CBR 125 R which as you can see is the same bike as the 150 except the bore is different cost 2,650 UK Pound Sterling again this one has EFI in Europe.

The Kawasaki Ninja 250 cost 3,299 UK Pound sterling.

So in Europe with EFI the price is approximately 25% more for the 250 (I round of figures here to simplify)? So if the price in Thailand is say approximately 115% more you can imagine where the money went, Mr. Tax man... So to justify it, is just to either accept that the 150 probably is near no taxed, and the 250 is heavily taxed.

Is this right? No but there is little we can do about it. I will pay it because I don't feel it is expensive, it does not hurt my wallet enough for me to feel robbed, I know it's the taxman who makes most of the money.

Once again, please compare what is available in Thailand. Because if you wish to compare to the UK, compare the UK price versus the Thai price. An increase of some 65K THB. How much of that do you think goes into the transportation of the bike? And how much does the UK tax? Get those figures out of the way and you'll see what a locally produced bike's cost should be. And I still (!) can't find a comparison between the old CBR 125's price and the new F.I. model's price. That would settle fairly quickly approximately how much it costs to upgrade to fuel injection.

I don't remember anyone flaming the Ninja for being to little bang for the buck. I, and several others, asked wether it was a cost effective upgrade over the previous locally produced pocket sports bike. I do remember there being quite a tiff after it was show that a CBR would stay right on a Ninja up into insanely stupid for Thailand speeds after a forum member blithely stated that the CBR would be getting smaller and smaller in the mirrors.

Well, if say an object is travelling at say 155 km/h and the other does 165 km/h will the slower moving object become smaller in the mirror of the faster? What is the big deal with someone stating that? If you told me your car which had say a top speed which was e.g. 10 km/h more than mine and around 1 second faster 0 - 60 would make my car become smaller and smaller in the mirror, I would say yes, certainly it would and not see the big deal in it.

Once again, my objection was raised due to the fact that you would have to be traveling at some serious speeds to have the smaller bike getting smaller in your mirror. Speeds that most likely are not sustainable in Thailand if you wish to live a long and productive life. Normal speeds, or even taking off from a traffic light the CBR would stay right with you. There was one time I was able to keep up with a heavily modified 400 until we got to around 60.....than he sadly left me breathing his exhaust fumes because he was able to get on power and stay there.

How can you put them in different classes? From the size position they're in the same class. If you consider a 20% increase (in bore size that the CBR 150 has over its little brother) enough to keep a bike in a 'smaller' class let's look at some other figures (provided courtesy of your post).

CBR 150's disadvantage to Ninja 250

Seat height 2% lower

Ovrall Lenght 8% shorter

Width 13% narrower

Wheelbase 8% shorter

You just said it buddy, the 150 is smaller. All the people from Europe here grew up with this system, Moped, Light (small) Motorbike, and Motorbike, Now it's segged even more. It's now Moped, Small Motorbike, Medium Motorbike and unrestricted motorbike.

-Moped is 50cc and restricted hp and top speed

-Light motorbike is up to 125 with restriction on hp and top speed (16 years age, and light license)

-Medium motorbike is any bike larger than the 125 class but with restricted hp (18 years age and license)

-Unrestricted - says for itself (21 years I think age and license)

Since the 150 is just a bored up version of the 125 and it has the same frame, as this light or small motorbike, which reflects why I call it a different class bike. I would also call a 400cc a different class than a 250cc.

Wow, so you kinda base your classes on the Euro standards but you move a bike out of one and then create a new class. I don't know the rules and regulations but if you would kindly state what you think the classes should be at it would help me understand where you're coming from. I was under the belief that you were simply looking at overall size/output ratings to create general classes. And just out of curiousity, would a NSR 150 fall into a CBR 150 class or a Ninja 250? I mean it has greater output than a 250 but a smaller frame. It's very confusing.

So, applying the same rule you wish to apply to the CBR, the Ninja still falls into the small bike catergory. Sorry mate. You've seen the video clips. Does a 1 second difference mean that a CBR wouldn't be right on the Ninja's ass?

-First the bike falls into the 250cc category, the 150cc in the 150cc category.

Given. Different engine sizes. Essentially same frame sizes.

-Yes it does I am afraid, but let us use this equation to test it D = (Vf + Vo) * t/2 and we accept the two movies as the example of 0-60 in 7 seconds vs 8 seconds, The 0-60 in 7 sec. would use 94.5 metres to get to 60 mph while the 8 second bike would use 108 meters to make the same run, if you then ask what speed would the Ninja have at 108 meter when the CBR would reach 60, it would if we calculate the velocity still be constant to end up at 65.5 mph, so when the CBR reaches it's 60 mph The Ninja would be at 65.5 mph, so it would not be on the Ninjas ass as the equation show us.

Ahh, thanks for doing the math for me. You'll see that at 7 seconds the Ninja has traveled 94.5 metres. Now, at 8 seconds the CBR has traveled 108 metres. So, let's assume that the CBR has covered the ground at a uniform pace (technically impossible, but since we don't know the speed at 7 seconds let's just say it happened). 7/8 of 108 metres is 94.5 metres. So when the Ninja has hit 60 mph, the CBR is right along side. Ok, that scenario is highly improbable since distance covered per second will not be equal for the duration of the run. So, instead let's look at the Ninja's distance covered at the CBR's completion of 60 mph. We know that the CBR has reached 60 mph at 8 seconds (we're going to disregard the fact that the videos show 0-100 kph time and just use the times for 0-60). The Ninja should have reached 68.6 mph in the same it took the CBR to get to 60 (that's based on a 0-60 time of 7 seconds by the Ninja....(100)*8/7). Now, we know that the Ninja didn't hit 68.6 rigt after it hit 60 and travel at 68.6 for the whole second, so let's take 1/2 of its increase for that second; basically it traveled 64.3 mph for a second. That means it covered 93 feet (23.84 meters) in that second. It covered 123 metres (+15 metres of what the CBR covers) in the time that it took the CBR to cover 108 meters. Now, there's a lot of assumptions in those figures, but I still think that a 114% increase in price should equate to more than a 14% increase in performance (that's figuring either 0-60 MPH times or distance covered in the run up to it). I realise that eventually a CBR will be left behind, and that's to be expected for such a cost savings. The jackrabbit start will be very close though.

On the other hand, I doubt this debate will be settled UNTIL we have two riders of equal talent meet and settle it. I'm all for riding with anyone, but it does seem like there's a lot of thin skinned new bike owners. I haven't seen anyone call anyone stupid for buying a Ninja 250, just asking it buying one is the right choice for a CBR 150R owner. There does seem to be a lot of outburst by Ninja owners though over preceived insults, raising the saying "Methinks thou doth protest too much".

I think the entire debate is silly to be honest, I also do not see any New Ninja owners being thin skinned, I saw a lot of reaction on Richards funny comment that is all. Then this tread started with value vs bike.

That is subjective, I feel it's money's worth someone don't. Like I said I would be more happy to ride with 150 owners and enjoy riding instead of the debate 250 vs 150.

Value is subjective, I feel the value added features is within my economical comfort zone, others might not and there is nothing wrong with that.

I believe the whole intent of this thread was to keep the *ahem* friendly discussion from over-running the Ninja thread. I also believe that the Thai Visa members who own a Ninja should start a 'club' thread as was started for the CBR 150R. I'm sure that min-flame wars such as these would be quickly extinguished by PeaceBlondie. I'm all up for riding with anyone, I just responded to Richard's quote because although it had the ability to be funny it lost the humour by the person delivering it. It would be similar to an Irishman telling an joke that was slightly slanderous about Irish and than an Englishman telling the same joke. When a 'joke' is told in with no malice intended, it's just that, a joke. When malice is intended it's quite different. I'm not convinced that RichardBKK intended it to be a joke....

As an aside; middle of November I'm going to be back in LOS. If anyone wants to meet up and ride at the track behind Seacon Sqaure locate on Srinarkarin, I'm game. In fact, I'm going to start a thread about that. The cost is minimal and the track is open to bikers on Saturday morning. I've ridden with several forum members there before, and it's great fun unless you have a 400+ cc bike. Reason being is that it's actually a go-kart track and while they open up the outside lanes which circumnavigate the whole track, you really can't get up to that much speed. If you try and go where the little bikes are mostly ridden you'll get your ass handed to you if you're on a big bike since you can't carry your speed into corners like us little bike riders can.

Happy riding everyone

[PeaceBlondie]

As usual, how it is done in Birmingham means nothing in Buriram. It is fun to tell stories about bikers in Edinburg(h) but we are in Thailand, where you can have an interesting discussion about 150 versus 250, that would get you laughed out of the pub in the West. For double the price and 67 percent more baht, you had better be getting a whole lot more. I thought aluminum frames were better than steel, and a few silly millimeters never made much difference in sex or motorcycles. Two-thirds larger, though, is much bigger.

[Richard-BKK]

He PB,

Actual, aluminum frames are for some motorcycles more a sales point then a actual benefit. As aluminum is less strong then steel a equal frame construction of aluminum needs to be make of more massive (thicker) pipes then a steel frame.

If we compare older designs of motorcycles which later evolved into using aluminum frames we can find that the weight of the frame is not that much different. And a kilo is still a kilo doesn't matter if it is aluminum of steel.

I cannot comment on this being the case for a Honda CBR-125/150 frame, as I have no information on the weight of the Honda frame.

[T_Dog]

I am glad the Ninja 250 finally made it here, and congratulations to you guys that bought them. I would buy one if I had the cash as my CBR-150 poops out at high elevations with two-up. I think the added horsepower would really help out up here in the North. If the the Ninja is more vibration-free, that would also be a plus. Both the CBR-150 and Ninja 250 are good Thailand bikes as they can maneuver and park easily in the city, and go fast on the highways with great economy. At a 140 KB, the Ninja is still a great value for a brand new bike with the performance it has.

[JonnyF]

If people think that price increases should be directly proportional to horsepower, CC or 0-60 times then we should all be riding bored out NSR150's for 20,000 baht.

Clearly there are other factors such as aesthetics, size, design, technology, stability, rideability. Having ridden both bikes I can honestly say that for me the Ninja was worth the extra money, for others it might not be but it's impossible to make a decision by dividing the horsepower by the price.

[Bard]

Wow, so you kinda base your classes on the Euro standards but you move a bike out of one and then create a new class. I don't know the rules and regulations but if you would kindly state what you think the classes should be at it would help me understand where you're coming from. I was under the belief that you were simply looking at overall size/output ratings to create general classes. And just out of curiousity, would a NSR 150 fall into a CBR 150 class or a Ninja 250? I mean it has greater output than a 250 but a smaller frame. It's very confusing.

Sorry for being so confusing, but it's like in US you have other standards which is unfamiliar for Europeans, so I understand the confusion. Both of the bikes are small don't get me wrong, but due to the system from back home I see them as small and medium frame, in US you would call both of them small. The NSR is also a small frame (as 125) bike which granted would outperform the 250, it has nothing to do with performance, but the frame is still in 125 size. If you like 2 strokes that bike is a great bike.

The frame size on 125's (150 has same frame) is basically smaller then the 250, which is why I saw them as small and medium, hope that cleared up the confusion I unfortunately created.

I believe the whole intent of this thread was to keep the *ahem* friendly discussion from over-running the Ninja thread. I also believe that the Thai Visa members who own a Ninja should start a 'club' thread as was started for the CBR 150R. I'm sure that min-flame wars such as these would be quickly extinguished by PeaceBlondie. I'm all up for riding with anyone, I just responded to Richard's quote because although it had the ability to be funny it lost the humour by the person delivering it. It would be similar to an Irishman telling an joke that was slightly slanderous about Irish and than an Englishman telling the same joke. When a 'joke' is told in with no malice intended, it's just that, a joke. When malice is intended it's quite different. I'm not convinced that RichardBKK intended it to be a joke....

I don't see anything unfriendly in this debate at all, just a debate between the two bikes. I driven both, I like the Ninja more due to far less vibrations, and with me in the seat the Ninja definately outperforms the CBR, if you put a 45 kilo Thai in the CBR vs 90 kilo me on the Ninja the situation is way different.

There is a Ninja 250 thread which went OT big time with debates of CBR, Er-6N etc. So it was good this thread removed that from the Ninja thread I am very happy for that.

I cannot speak for RichardBKK, I'm not him, but I believed it was a funny remark, that's all.

As an aside; middle of November I'm going to be back in LOS. If anyone wants to meet up and ride at the track behind Seacon Sqaure locate on Srinarkarin, I'm game. In fact, I'm going to start a thread about that. The cost is minimal and the track is open to bikers on Saturday morning. I've ridden with several forum members there before, and it's great fun unless you have a 400+ cc bike. Reason being is that it's actually a go-kart track and while they open up the outside lanes which circumnavigate the whole track, you really can't get up to that much speed. If you try and go where the little bikes are mostly ridden you'll get your ass handed to you if you're on a big bike since you can't carry your speed into corners like us little bike riders can.

I would be game for some playing on the field, why not do it on Bira. It's open every day for bikers between 08:00 and 12:00 it's a full FIA track and that would be lot's of fun. I would be happy to do some racing, I love it.

Good idea with the thread also, could set up races around the Kingdom for fun and learning from eachothers, brilliant idea.

Happy riding everyone

[Richard-BKK]

Sorry, but I'm missing something. What did I post what could be funny?

[Richard-BKK]

He PB,

Actual, aluminum frames are for some motorcycles more a sales point then a actual benefit. As aluminum is less strong then steel a equal frame construction of aluminum needs to be make of more massive (thicker) pipes then a steel frame.

If we compare older designs of motorcycles which later evolved into using aluminum frames we can find that the weight of the frame is not that much different. And a kilo is still a kilo doesn't matter if it is aluminum of steel.

I cannot comment on this being the case for a Honda CBR-125/150 frame, as I have no information on the weight of the Honda frame.

In 2006 a Honda CBR-125 with a high-tencel steel frame had a weight of 115kg, today (2008) the same CBR-125 has a weight of 127kg with aluminum frame. CBR-125 2006 and look at CBR-125 2008

I'm would not be correct if I not take into account the 4 kilo extra weight of the fuel injection system, and 2 kilo extra weight of the newer fairing.... My excuses

*** For people I talk expressively not about its 150cc brother, which has as only difference a cylinder and a cylinder head of about the same weight...***

Edited September 1, 2008 by Richard-BKK

[Bard]

Sorry, but I'm missing something. What did I post what could be funny?

Hi Richard-BKK what is referred to is your comment under the Ninja 250 R thread. Some CBR apparently felt it was malicious, while others took it as a funny harmless remark. It sparked a Ninja vs CBR OT on the Ninja thread and has now ended up here, why? I have no idea ... Guess someone took offence, so you're walking on eggshells I see

Here it is the (malicious/funny) whatever you choose remark which started the whole thing;

"So now we have actual customers on the road, how they feel about the power/weight ratio, early comments by some board members said it would not "much" better then a Honda CBR-150R. I think that people who would be interested about hearing about this....

Personally I cannot see nor understand to comparison with a Honda CBR-150R, other then a item you see getting smaller in the rear mirror........

This post has been edited by Richard-BKK: 2008-08-27 23:16:30"

[LivinLOS]

Thats offensive ??

Come on guys... Thicker skins needed huh ?? Are we in ballet class