Atm Fraud, What To Do Next?

[Veazer]

My gf went to deposit her paycheck today and her balance was nearly zero. The bank said it was due to several ATM withdrawals late last night, but she had the card on her and nobody knows her pin number. Bangkok Bank is not helping her at all and when she asked if they have an picture of the person from the ATM camera she was told "You'll need to go ask Bank of Ayudhya, it was their machine." Can't they at least help her out and do that??? F*cking hel_l.... It appears that she is the victim of a fake atm front, or something similar. That's just my guess.

At this point, is there anything else that can be done? She doesn't want to keep any money in the bank now, she is paranoid that anyone can take it away, and I agree. She is very upset about the situation and very pissed off about the way bangkok bank is handling this situation.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. The man in the link above (5 year old forum post) said he was able to get his money back from Bangkok Bank, but she is being told that's not possible.

[photojourn]

I would have thought Bangkok Bank would have a fraud management or investigations department. A police report is probably what's needed to start the process rolling.

Good luck and keep us all posted on any developments.

[simcity]

I done a search on ombudsman Thailand and can with this link

http://www.ombudsman.go.th/eng_version/abo...n.asp?id=100066

as suggest I will do as well a police report

[Lopburi99]

My gf went to deposit her paycheck today and her balance was nearly zero. The bank said it was due to several ATM withdrawals late last night, but she had the card on her and nobody knows her pin number. Bangkok Bank is not helping her at all and when she asked if they have an picture of the person from the ATM camera she was told "You'll need to go ask Bank of Ayudhya, it was their machine." Can't they at least help her out and do that??? F*cking hel_l.... It appears that she is the victim of a fake atm front, or something similar. That's just my guess.

At this point, is there anything else that can be done? She doesn't want to keep any money in the bank now, she is paranoid that anyone can take it away, and I agree. She is very upset about the situation and very pissed off about the way bangkok bank is handling this situation.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. The man in the link above (5 year old forum post) said he was able to get his money back from Bangkok Bank, but she is being told that's not possible.

In an earlier life, I once had a Thai wife whose parents still lived in Thailand. When she came to the USA she left an ATM card which drew from my USA bank account with her father "in case they needed some emergency money" (yeah right, but we won't get into that on this topic). Anyway, all was fine for a few months, with her father using the card now and then when we said he could. Then we also experienced some ATM withdrawals which brought our balance to zero. The father swore he didn't make the withdrawals, and finally I believed him when I was checking my account online at the very instant another phantom withdrawal was taking place - literally in front of my eyes I saw my balance drop to zero! Wild! Also at that very moment my wife was on the phone talking to her father when she said, "Father! Somebody is taking out more money RIGHT NOW!" He hopped on his motorbike and sped to the nearby ATM (I was able to verify it was the same ATM he always used). He arrived just in time to see two men run from the machine and speed away. This was late at night, and he was afraid to follow them. Although he never admitted it, I determinded the week before the card was out of his attention for a few days at home. When I checked with my bank, their fraud department said there is something called "skimming" which is when somebody has a card in their possession long enough to make a copy of the magnetic strip (I have no idea how). We theorized somebody had looked over his shoulder previously and learned the PIN, then somehow got the card temporarily from his dresser to "skim" it then return it, perhaps with the help of a housekeeper. My bank reimbursed me for the stolen funds (about US$500) which they said they did only because I was a valued customer. Anyway, I wanted to let you all know about "skimming" so you are aware it happens even in rural Thailand. If your girlfriend had her card in her possession at the time of the withdrawals, she may have had her card skimmed somehow also. Or maybe not, maybe a different type of theft was taking place. You will probably never know. Good luck trying to get your money back. But in the case of skimming, the bank is clearly not at fault.

[Dave the Dude]

My gf went to deposit her paycheck today and her balance was nearly zero. The bank said it was due to several ATM withdrawals late last night, but she had the card on her and nobody knows her pin number. Bangkok Bank is not helping her at all and when she asked if they have an picture of the person from the ATM camera she was told "You'll need to go ask Bank of Ayudhya, it was their machine." Can't they at least help her out and do that??? F*cking hel_l.... It appears that she is the victim of a fake atm front, or something similar. That's just my guess.

At this point, is there anything else that can be done? She doesn't want to keep any money in the bank now, she is paranoid that anyone can take it away, and I agree. She is very upset about the situation and very pissed off about the way bangkok bank is handling this situation.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. The man in the link above (5 year old forum post) said he was able to get his money back from Bangkok Bank, but she is being told that's not possible.

I had the same thing happen to me with the Bangkok Bank. The guy thought I was crazy when I told him someone had taken money out of my ATM account. He insisted it could only be done with my card. At that point, I informed him I was once a Bank Manager and KNEW he is wrong. I hope you have better luck getting a refund than me, I ended up 'writing the money off'

VEASER : GO AND CHANGE THE PIN NUMBER NOW, IF YOU HAV'NT ALREADY DONE IT, That will stop further use of the skimmed card.

Dave

Edited August 30, 2008 by Dave the Dude

[Lopburi99]

My gf went to deposit her paycheck today and her balance was nearly zero. The bank said it was due to several ATM withdrawals late last night, but she had the card on her and nobody knows her pin number. Bangkok Bank is not helping her at all and when she asked if they have an picture of the person from the ATM camera she was told "You'll need to go ask Bank of Ayudhya, it was their machine." Can't they at least help her out and do that??? F*cking hel_l.... It appears that she is the victim of a fake atm front, or something similar. That's just my guess.

At this point, is there anything else that can be done? She doesn't want to keep any money in the bank now, she is paranoid that anyone can take it away, and I agree. She is very upset about the situation and very pissed off about the way bangkok bank is handling this situation.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. The man in the link above (5 year old forum post) said he was able to get his money back from Bangkok Bank, but she is being told that's not possible.

In an earlier life, I once had a Thai wife whose parents still lived in Thailand. When she came to the USA she left an ATM card which drew from my USA bank account with her father "in case they needed some emergency money" (yeah right, but we won't get into that on this topic). Anyway, all was fine for a few months, with her father using the card now and then when we said he could. Then we also experienced some ATM withdrawals which brought our balance to zero. The father swore he didn't make the withdrawals, and finally I believed him when I was checking my account online at the very instant another phantom withdrawal was taking place - literally in front of my eyes I saw my balance drop to zero! Wild! Also at that very moment my wife was on the phone talking to her father when she said, "Father! Somebody is taking out more money RIGHT NOW!" He hopped on his motorbike and sped to the nearby ATM (I was able to verify it was the same ATM he always used). He arrived just in time to see two men run from the machine and speed away. This was late at night, and he was afraid to follow them. Although he never admitted it, I determinded the week before the card was out of his attention for a few days at home. When I checked with my bank, their fraud department said there is something called "skimming" which is when somebody has a card in their possession long enough to make a copy of the magnetic strip (I have no idea how). We theorized somebody had looked over his shoulder previously and learned the PIN, then somehow got the card temporarily from his dresser to "skim" it then return it, perhaps with the help of a housekeeper. My bank reimbursed me for the stolen funds (about US$500) which they said they did only because I was a valued customer. Anyway, I wanted to let you all know about "skimming" so you are aware it happens even in rural Thailand. If your girlfriend had her card in her possession at the time of the withdrawals, she may have had her card skimmed somehow also. Or maybe not, maybe a different type of theft was taking place. You will probably never know. Good luck trying to get your money back. But in the case of skimming, the bank is clearly not at fault.

I just thought of something. The bank may not be at fault, but you may have protection under MasterCard or Visa if the card is not just a plain ATM card, but an ATM/debit card having the MasterCard or Visa logo. Supposedly MC/Visa protects us against fradulent use of the card if it is stolen, do they not? Arguably skimming is tantamount to card theft for sure! Don't know exactly where the money would come from, from Bangkok Bank or from MC/Visa somehow (doesn't matter to you). But one thing is for sure, you will need (at the very least) the bank's cooperation so it may be worth the time to try to find someone working there with more of a helpful attitude. Perhaps Dave the Dude, previously a Bank manager himself, could further shed some light if this approach could be successful. Sure hope so - Good luck!! (If you don't have a debit card, hopefully this post may help somebody else in the future who does)

[cali4995]

If you were to google atm+fraud on the thaivisa site, you would

find many, many similar stories. One gent was kind enough to

provide the information for the same bank your TG uses. There

are stories of folks resolving these things, it's just not easy.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

BANGKOK BANK PUBLIC COMPANY, LTD.

FRAUD OPERATIONS CREDIT CARD DIVISION 333 SILOM ROAD

6TH FL TRINITY COMPLEX BLDG.

BANGKOK

THAILAND

10500

Fax 66-2-2384774

Direct 66-2-2315738

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here also is a very interesting link of a guy's experience with atm

fraud in Thailand. It's not just the fake fronts but also cloned or

duplicate blank cards people are also somehow able to use.

http://www.geocities.com/atm_fraud/index.htm

Edited August 30, 2008 by cali4995

[Veazer]

I just thought of something. The bank may not be at fault, but you may have protection under MasterCard or Visa if the card is not just a plain ATM card, but an ATM/debit card having the MasterCard or Visa logo. Supposedly MC/Visa protects us against fraudulent use of the card if it is stolen, do they not? Arguably skimming is tantamount to card theft for sure! Don't know exactly where the money would come from, from Bangkok Bank or from MC/Visa somehow (doesn't matter to you). But one thing is for sure, you will need (at the very least) the bank's cooperation so it may be worth the time to try to find someone working there with more of a helpful attitude. Perhaps Dave the Dude, previously a Bank manager himself, could further shed some light if this approach could be successful. Sure hope so - Good luck!! (If you don't have a debit card, hopefully this post may help somebody else in the future who does)

It was a Visa debit card, but I was told once before that debit cards don't get the same protection benefits as full blown credit cards. I haven't checked to see if it's the same in Thailand. In addition, it wasn't a debit transaction, so their services weren't involved. She's going to call and find out though, thanks for the suggestion.

I don't think it was skimming like you mentioned, i think it was the the front-panel skimming technique done at the machine itself. She just doesn't leave her card around anywhere. She insists there was no chance for anyone to do it except at the machine itself.

When she filed a police report, there were three other people filing reports for the same problem. It was from different ATM machines, but the same part of Chiang Mai. Despite this, Bangkok Bangkok continues to try to put the blame on her.. "You let someone borrow your card, right?" .. "Maybe you told someone your pin code before but you forgot." There seems to be a much higher incidence of this happening at Bangkok Bank ATM machines, so why are they in denial??? Why don't they post fraud warning photos AT THE ATM to show what to watch out for (elevated keypads, protruding card readers, etc.) Instead, they've done nothing and try to place blame on the customer. "The customer is always wrong" attitude often seen in thailand is one of my biggest pet peeves. Big businesses seem to take advantage of the average easy-going thai personality and bully them around.

Thanks for everyone's assistance with this. It's encouraging to know there's a chance of getting the money returned.

[longball53098]

You did not mention it that I can see.

Cancel that card and pin ASAP. Call the BKK Bank help line and they will put on with the needed department. Of course if the balance is zero then all the blood is out of that turnip

I would close that account and open a new one.

Edited August 31, 2008 by longball53098

[Veazer]

You did not mention it that I can see.

Cancel that card and pin ASAP. Call the BKK Bank help line and they will put on with the needed department. Of course if the balance is zero then all the blood is out of that turnip

I would close that account and open a new one.

She had already called the fraud protection line, but she hadn't canceled the card because the balance was nearly zero, just a few baht left. You would think that the bank would automatically cancel it given what happened, but TIT.

Another person mentioned that this happened to him in bangkok and after reporting the card stolen the atm machine kept the card on the next attempted usage. So then the bank had the card with the perps fingerprints all over it. Any guesses what they did with it? Destroyed it! Ahhhh the logic..... Isn't that called destroying evidence in most countries?

She's going to close the account, but only because she realizes that Bangkok Bank is worthless when it comes to assisting their customers in times of need.

She's been told by Bangkok Bank, and the police, that it is her responsibility to go retrieve the security camera photos from the Bank of Ayudhyah staff. Amazing thailand.

I'll keep you guys posted on the final outcome.

[longball53098]

You did not mention it that I can see.

Cancel that card and pin ASAP. Call the BKK Bank help line and they will put on with the needed department. Of course if the balance is zero then all the blood is out of that turnip

I would close that account and open a new one.

She had already called the fraud protection line, but she hadn't canceled the card because the balance was nearly zero, just a few baht left. You would think that the bank would automatically cancel it given what happened, but TIT.

Another person mentioned that this happened to him in bangkok and after reporting the card stolen the atm machine kept the card on the next attempted usage. So then the bank had the card with the perps fingerprints all over it. Any guesses what they did with it? Destroyed it! Ahhhh the logic..... Isn't that called destroying evidence in most countries?

She's going to close the account, but only because she realizes that Bangkok Bank is worthless when it comes to assisting their customers in times of need.

She's been told by Bangkok Bank, and the police, that it is her responsibility to go retrieve the security camera photos from the Bank of Ayudhyah staff. Amazing thailand.

I'll keep you guys posted on the final outcome.

I would not assume the bank will cancel the card. Even with no money in the account I would do it. And yes they could send a computer command to capture the card if the fraud depart chooses to do that. Will it help catch the perp? I doubt it as they could use any machine to try a dispense and I highly doubt that whatever branch of bank xyz will know that this card is hot so they may just follow whatever their procedure is for captured cards. It may be just destroy them. Probably depends on that banks policies

There is another very long thread about a gent that had a lot of money stolen by fraudulent use of his account and by the end it seems he did most of the leg work to try to find the perp. So if you think the ban will do something? Think again.

You can blame Bangkok bank for their lack of interest but I bet if the same thing happens at another bank with another account they would react the same way. I did not get a clear feeling abut how much baht was lost here but for you and the wife its a real big deal as it would be for almost any of us. To the bank its probably the daily routine of trying to solve some of these issues and we know what that can mean unless you have power and status .

When you open another account with ATM card now you have had this bad experience and you can be a lot more vigilant to some of these schemes to get our cash. Be very careful a any ATM machine of the people around you, even a distance away they can read the numbers you input so always cover your actions with a free hand or block any view of your inputs. Alwasy take a receipt if its available so you have a record, never leave the ticket at the ATM with your account number on it. Be cautious of ATM's in out of the way locations and look at the slot that you put the card into. If it (the atm card slot) looks different to you than your used to seeing don't use that machine the crooks may have placed a device over the machines slot that looks ok but it could be a card reading device that can read the data on the mag stripe and with that they can make a card and if they see your pin in use than their home free. Some crooks are so smart these days they mount small pin hole cameras on the ATM machine or area and they send a wireless picture to someone sitting in a car with a laptop. They can see you strike the keys with you pin number and then you leave the receipt and their home free. There are all sorts of scams out there and some are very creative so always be vigilant at an ATM.

[Lopburi99]

I don't know about you others, but I am getting more and more spooked about ATM usage! It is very convenient and inexpensive (only cost me about 90-100 baht for any withdrawal up to 25,000 baht), but I need to make 3 withdrawals a month (each 24 hrs apart due to limit restrictions) and will continue to need to do so for the indefinite future. I will try to use ATMs only at bank branches (preferably even in the lobby if there is one there) because ATMs there are probably safer. But at the very least, regardless of where I use an ATM, I will be paranoic about shielding my entry of my PIN!

I also have a PayPal debit card which I could use, but I would need to wait about 4 days for my funds to transfer from my bank account to my PayPal account. I believe PayPal charges only $1USD for each withdrawal anywhere in the world. I also think PayPal allows you to change the PIN online, but I have had problems connecting to the PayPal website from Thailand at times. Sometimes it just will not allow me to log in, then I try later and I can log in ok. This has happened many times so I am reluctant now to use PayPal for fear I won't be able to log in to manage my funds transfers, check balances, etc. I think PayPal is checking the internet origin of my pc and sometimes refusing login. I know some websites, especially U.S. Government websites simply do not allow access from Thailand, period - won't even load the site much less allow a login. Also, on my account PayPal has a dumb $400USD daily withdrawal limit which is inconvenient but maybe this could be increased, not sure.

Anybody aware of a means of securely and very inexpensively transferring money from a U.S. bank to my bank (Krungthai) here in Thailand? I think a bank-to-bank international transfer costs about $35 when initiated from my bank in the USA but I don't want to pay that much. Suppose I would be willing to wait the 7-10 days if the transfer service was inexpensive, foolproof and secure. Othewise, I guess I'll just keep using my ATM card with great caution.

How do you other folks regularly transfer money from the U.S or elsewhere? Not huge amounts, just about 60,000-70,000 baht or so per month? Thanks.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Lopburi99

[picaro]

My gf went to deposit her paycheck today and her balance was nearly zero. The bank said it was due to several ATM withdrawals late last night, but she had the card on her and nobody knows her pin number. Bangkok Bank is not helping her at all and when she asked if they have an picture of the person from the ATM camera she was told "You'll need to go ask Bank of Ayudhya, it was their machine." Can't they at least help her out and do that??? F*cking hel_l.... It appears that she is the victim of a fake atm front, or something similar. That's just my guess.

At this point, is there anything else that can be done? She doesn't want to keep any money in the bank now, she is paranoid that anyone can take it away, and I agree. She is very upset about the situation and very pissed off about the way bangkok bank is handling this situation.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. The man in the link above (5 year old forum post) said he was able to get his money back from Bangkok Bank, but she is being told that's not possible.

Hi All

This happened to me to the tune of 293000.00 bt from Bangkok Bank also. At this point I wish to be in touch with other people in the same boat. In my case the money was taken out from France with a counterfit card. My lawyer says if we can show the judge a pattern of Bangkok Bank doing this to many other customers they will have to give us all back our money. They first offered me half back and then said that I either gave my card to someone going to France along with the pin or sent it and then they sent it back to me. I didn't use the card during the 3 days that this happened so I can't prove that the card was here with me. I'm sure there is many more of us but we need to get together to make the bank take responsibility for their poor security. Please anyone else out there P.M. me as I would like to get a list of other victums for my lawyer. If you think your money is safe and insured in Thailand think again.

regards p.

[simcity]

I am coming back with my first quote:

Ombudsman

Did anyone contact it in Thailand?

I know they save me a bundle in Australia regarding a accident with a fairly new car, insurance want to fix when it was at the limit of the quota..

Insurance went bully at me

‘you do not agree, your car can stay like it is ‘

The ombudsman went bully at them

‘you fixe the car, I will look into the repair & will make it do it again if no perfect’

I go the cheque few day after..

http://www.ombudsman.go.th/eng_version/abo...n.asp?id=100066

Edited September 7, 2008 by simcity

[dsfbrit]

My gf went to deposit her paycheck today and her balance was nearly zero. The bank said it was due to several ATM withdrawals late last night, but she had the card on her and nobody knows her pin number. Bangkok Bank is not helping her at all and when she asked if they have an picture of the person from the ATM camera she was told "You'll need to go ask Bank of Ayudhya, it was their machine." Can't they at least help her out and do that??? F*cking hel_l.... It appears that she is the victim of a fake atm front, or something similar. That's just my guess.

At this point, is there anything else that can be done? She doesn't want to keep any money in the bank now, she is paranoid that anyone can take it away, and I agree. She is very upset about the situation and very pissed off about the way bangkok bank is handling this situation.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. The man in the link above (5 year old forum post) said he was able to get his money back from Bangkok Bank, but she is being told that's not possible.

Hi All

This happened to me to the tune of 293000.00 bt from Bangkok Bank also. At this point I wish to be in touch with other people in the same boat. In my case the money was taken out from France with a counterfit card. My lawyer says if we can show the judge a pattern of Bangkok Bank doing this to many other customers they will have to give us all back our money. They first offered me half back and then said that I either gave my card to someone going to France along with the pin or sent it and then they sent it back to me. I didn't use the card during the 3 days that this happened so I can't prove that the card was here with me. I'm sure there is many more of us but we need to get together to make the bank take responsibility for their poor security. Please anyone else out there P.M. me as I would like to get a list of other victums for my lawyer. If you think your money is safe and insured in Thailand think again.

regards p.

'P.M. me as I would like to get a list of other victums for my lawyer'

No offence Picaro, but I was the victim of identity theft in the UK in 2005 and now I would even view your post as a possible new twist on a scam to get peoples identities in some way. IMHO, I would therefore suggest that no one should contact you.

Having said that Picaro, I hope you get your money back.

I eventually got my money back (Banking rules of that particular UK bank). However, even when the Metropiltan Police contacted me I called them back at their Police Station each time on their phone number advertised on their published Website, just in case it was some dodgy character impersonating a Police Officer and trying to scam me again.

It turned out I was the victim of a large gang, who had fingers in many pies and I was just the tip of a very large iceberg.

I hate having to deposit large amounts of money in a Thai bank (necessary for my visa renewal), however I always use an ATM m/c in a bank or a major enlcosed/ secure area ie: Carrefour, never in a remote area. I inspect the machine for any false cover or camera. I cover my hand as I enter the PIN and if anyone is standing anywhere near me they are told to '**** ***' .

To the OP, you have my sympathy. Unless its happened to you, then you can never really explain what a horrible experience it is.

I would suggest you check any other cards you or your girl friend have just in case they have been interfered with. It may be

that an associate has skimmed these in some way.

Better safe than sorry.

Edited September 7, 2008 by dsfbrit

[Veazer]

'P.M. me as I would like to get a list of other victums for my lawyer'

No offence Picaro, but I was the victim of identity theft in the UK in 2005 and now I would even view your post as a possible new twist on a scam to get peoples identities in some way. IMHO, I would therefore suggest that no one should contact you.

Having said that Picaro, I hope you get your money back.

I eventually got my money back (Banking rules of that particular UK bank). However, even when the Metropiltan Police contacted me I called them back at their Police Station each time on their phone number advertised on their published Website, just in case it was some dodgy character impersonating a Police Officer and trying to scam me again.

It turned out I was the victim of a large gang, who had fingers in many pies and I was just the tip of a very large iceberg.

I hate having to deposit large amounts of money in a Thai bank (necessary for my visa renewal), however I always use an ATM m/c in a bank or a major enlcosed/ secure area ie: Carrefour, never in a remote area. I inspect the machine for any false cover or camera. I cover my hand as I enter the PIN and if anyone is standing anywhere near me they are told to '**** ***' .

To the OP, you have my sympathy. Unless its happened to you, then you can never really explain what a horrible experience it is.

I would suggest you check any other cards you or your girl friend have just in case they have been interfered with. It may be

that an associate has skimmed these in some way.

Better safe than sorry.

Yep... No offense Picaro but at this point we're just going to let the process run its course. I'm sure you're in a similar postion, worse actually, but at this time i can only give information to the authorities and banking institutions. I wish you the best, but I don't know you and I'm a bit wary of everything at this point. Sorry!

The case is currently under review, I'll report back when the bank has come to a conclusion. Interestingly enough, all of the employees at her company were contacted by their respective banks and told that they were going to be issued a new ATM card and that their old card was going to be cancelled. They all used the same machine in front of her office.

[Omerta]

I have not read all the responses so this may gave been covered.

The issuing Bank in Thailand, Bank of Bangkok in this case, have the obligation to investigate all reports of theft no matter what the guy in the branch tells you.

You must report the theft to the Police and get a report number.

If the card is a simple ATM/Payment card (even Visa Electron) the card issuer is the only place to go to report the issue.

The owner of the ATM may itself be the victim of the crime but that is BBK's and Police responsibility to investigate.

If you still have the card in your possession after the crime and it is impossible that someone "borrowed" it then you are the victim of one of two type of fraud. One is where inside information has been passed to the fraudster including your PIN and a white card has been made as an exact duplicate of yours. The fraudster then goes to an ATM and collect up to the maximum allowed each day. With BBK I think it is now 50,000 Baht. The second possibility is that you have been spied. This happens when hidden cameras, people looking over your shoulder or POS merchants copy your information and sell it on the black market. When the fraudster has all the information to make a white card he uses it as above.

The banks will vehemently deny that inside information is divulged but it is. They have to deny it. It is easy for the guy in charge of the ATM to put a device on the PC (the heart of the ATM) and record the keystrokes. For security they always work in pairs so it means that two employees have to agree to defraud their employers' customers. Obviously this makes it much more unlikely to happen except that here in Thailand I am sure that the two person rule is sometimes overlooked.

Insider fraud happens all over the world but Thailand is considered on of the hot spots for all ATM fraud. Much of it is carried out by foreigners from Europe, South America and Russia.

There is little you can do to stop this kind of fraud except a few sensible pre-crime precautions and post crime tenacity.

Pre Crime.

Do not even let you favorite grandmother have your PIN.

Check the ATM for hidden overhead cameras and cameras across the road.

If someone is standing right behind you, ask them to move. If they do not then allow them to go first.

Don't use any permutation of your personal details as your PIN. I have know people use their year of birth and also someone who used their date and month backwards saying "nobody will guess that". Of course they do guess it and have many attempts to try it. Banks don't keep a running total of failed PIN requests on numerous visits.

Don't write your PIN anywhere on your possession and if you have to write it down use somewhere that is least obvious to anyone else.

Post Crime.

REport to the Police and get a report name and numer.

Determine who is responsible to investigate. It may be two FIs with a Credit Card.

Badger them every day until they do something.

Charity begins at home. Unfortunately so does ATM fraud.

[picaro]

My gf went to deposit her paycheck today and her balance was nearly zero. The bank said it was due to several ATM withdrawals late last night, but she had the card on her and nobody knows her pin number. Bangkok Bank is not helping her at all and when she asked if they have an picture of the person from the ATM camera she was told "You'll need to go ask Bank of Ayudhya, it was their machine." Can't they at least help her out and do that??? F*cking hel_l.... It appears that she is the victim of a fake atm front, or something similar. That's just my guess.

At this point, is there anything else that can be done? She doesn't want to keep any money in the bank now, she is paranoid that anyone can take it away, and I agree. She is very upset about the situation and very pissed off about the way bangkok bank is handling this situation.

Any help or advice is greatly appreciated. The man in the link above (5 year old forum post) said he was able to get his money back from Bangkok Bank, but she is being told that's not possible.

Hi All

This happened to me to the tune of 293000.00 bt from Bangkok Bank also. At this point I wish to be in touch with other people in the same boat. In my case the money was taken out from France with a counterfit card. My lawyer says if we can show the judge a pattern of Bangkok Bank doing this to many other customers they will have to give us all back our money. They first offered me half back and then said that I either gave my card to someone going to France along with the pin or sent it and then they sent it back to me. I didn't use the card during the 3 days that this happened so I can't prove that the card was here with me. I'm sure there is many more of us but we need to get together to make the bank take responsibility for their poor security. Please anyone else out there P.M. me as I would like to get a list of other victums for my lawyer. If you think your money is safe and insured in Thailand think again.

regards p.

'P.M. me as I would like to get a list of other victums for my lawyer'

No offence Picaro, but I was the victim of identity theft in the UK in 2005 and now I would even view your post as a possible new twist on a scam to get peoples identities in some way. IMHO, I would therefore suggest that no one should contact you.

Having said that Picaro, I hope you get your money back.

I eventually got my money back (Banking rules of that particular UK bank). However, even when the Metropiltan Police contacted me I called them back at their Police Station each time on their phone number advertised on their published Website, just in case it was some dodgy character impersonating a Police Officer and trying to scam me again.

It turned out I was the victim of a large gang, who had fingers in many pies and I was just the tip of a very large iceberg.

I hate having to deposit large amounts of money in a Thai bank (necessary for my visa renewal), however I always use an ATM m/c in a bank or a major enlcosed/ secure area ie: Carrefour, never in a remote area. I inspect the machine for any false cover or camera. I cover my hand as I enter the PIN and if anyone is standing anywhere near me they are told to '**** ***' .

To the OP, you have my sympathy. Unless its happened to you, then you can never really explain what a horrible experience it is.

I would suggest you check any other cards you or your girl friend have just in case they have been interfered with. It may be

that an associate has skimmed these in some way.

Better safe than sorry.

TO ANYONE WHO IS AFRAID TO SEND ME THEIR PHONE NUMBER CALL OR SEND A LETTER TO MY LAWYER IN PATTAYA WE CAN GET THE MONEY BACK FROM BANGKOK BANK.

CHALERMWAT WIMUKTAYON (PICO)

BARRISTER, CEO

Magnacarta Co. LTD.

193/ 126-8 South Pattaya Rd.

Nongprue, Banglamung,

Chonburi

Tel. 038 373735 Fax. 038 373672

IF THIS ALSO SCARES YOU YOU NEED SOME HELP

regards to all picaro

Edited November 1, 2008 by camerata
Email address deleted as per forum rules.

[Veazer]

I just realized i never followed up on this....

I'm happy to report that last month the bank reviewed the case and refunded all of my girlfriend's money to her. What a relief.

[Wrong Turn]

VEASER : GO AND CHANGE THE PIN NUMBER NOW, IF YOU HAV'NT ALREADY DONE IT, That will stop further use of the skimmed card.

Dave

Yes, change the PIN, ASAP.

I would even ask for a new and different ATM card and pay a fee.

Always make these changes right away, at the first sign of these things.

[hyperdimension]

I'm happy to report that last month the bank reviewed the case and refunded all of my girlfriend's money to her. What a relief.

Wow, it sounds like one of the rare cases in which someone lost money in Thailand and was able to get it back. Congratulations to you and your girlfriend.

How long did it take, and what were the total expenses (e.g. lawyer fees)?

[Veazer]

I'm happy to report that last month the bank reviewed the case and refunded all of my girlfriend's money to her. What a relief.

Wow, it sounds like one of the rare cases in which someone lost money in Thailand and was able to get it back. Congratulations to you and your girlfriend.

How long did it take, and what were the total expenses (e.g. lawyer fees)?

Thanks! I was very pleased, and surprised, by the outcome.

There were no costs, just a lot of persistence and hassling the bank to see what they were doing about it. I think the total time to have the money returned was around 6 weeks. I think there were several factors that likely worked in our favor:

• It happened to several people at the same location, which indicates it wasn't her just giving the card to a friend in an attempt to defraud the bank
  
• Several people reported it at the same time, and were able to swap stories at the police station. I think this meant they many of the people dealing with the bank let them know that they were well aware that it didn't happen only to them.
  
• The bank stupidly reported that it happens frequently in that location. That led us, and probably others, to question them heavily why they did absolutely nothing about. Not even so much as posting a warning sign to beware of fake keypads, etc.
  

i'm just happy that it all worked out in the end. I hope the bank will take some measures to prevent this from happening to others.

[uncletom]

Haven't been in this section for awhile.

Yes it is a bummer there is ATM fraud, but it comes from a magnetized same color attachment scanner box that slips into the slot lining it up perfectly with the real ATM slot. You don't notice, but it is a clanky thing that protrudes, and seemingly seems normal but at the same time leaves you perplexed by the oddity. All ATM slots are flush with the machine and the rip off attachment is not.

I unfortunately used one but fortunately used an account I never keep an execssive amount of funds in (usually money is an in and out thing). First you put your card in press your code number and nothing happens. The card comes back out. You then push it back in and press your code number, nothing happens and then your card will come back out, but all of this is slower than normal

No I did not get ripped off because I thought about it for days, talked about the weirdness and inspected the looks of other machines. I changed my pin# immediately after knowing. They probably tried, but then again, this for the most part is a dormant acct.

I have seen woman many times at ATM's with a pad of numbers written down inserting card after card after card and thinking what the F***. They put the card in and press for an amount. if not they try for another amount. They try through the savings and checking or what ever, and if not, they take the card out and then insert another after another, looking at the pad and code numbers for that card continuing on and on and on. Many times I thought it peculiar but I did not think anything was wrong until this ATM scan scam was brought to my attention. Yes these people have been in front of me and annoyed the hel_l out of me because I wanted to use the dam_n machine, but now I know.

I just had a friend recover 37,000bt from the Bank of Ayudaya. Took him 3 months but he got it.

Be aware. If the machine seems odd, it is..

From my experience to you..

Peace

Uncletom

[orchis]

Had the problem 3 and 5 Nov.

My bank account was almost cleared in 6 transactions.

all transactions ended in uneven satang amoounts e.g. 5862.17 thb so i knew there was an exchange rate involved linking this to use abroad.

Contcted Bangkok bank (1333) the fourth person I called understood the problem. we spent 36' on the phone.

Amounts were charged in Penang.

BKK bank called me again 2 hours later with file number. would take until 19/11 to see resolution.

I think the copying was done in ATM at 7/11 on corner of Sri Bumpen en Ngam Duplee.

(I know because it s the only time I used the card the last two weeks.)

The telephone number for the section was not the same as above, they gave me 02 638 4000

Edited November 7, 2008 by orchis

[thaiman]

are these fraudulant machines usually attached to a bank? What do they look like?

[Veazer]

are these fraudulant machines usually attached to a bank? What do they look like?

they look like this

[thecatman]

I thought I would share a few simple measures I take to help avoid, or at least limit any fraud on my cards. Mostly common sense but worth listing none the less.

Firstly, I have 2 UK current accounts, one with Barclays, one with Nationwide. I have ATM cards and credit cards for both accounts. I have next to nothing in my barclays account as I never use this account for withdrawals in Thailand, but I do have an overdraft on this account just in case of emergencies. As this card never leaves my apartment there is very little chance of fraud on this card. My Nationwide card is the one I use regularly, therefore I have no overdraft on this card, reason being, this limits the amount that anyone could steal to the balance of the account. I don't keep anymore than I feel I need in this current account, I just transfer funds in as I need it from my e-savings account. The two credit cards I have do have large limits, once again, just in case of emergencies, but I never use these cards to make payments in Thailand unless absolutely necessary.

If I do need to make a payment by card, then I will not let the card leave my sight. By putting your card in the hands of a Waiter/Waitress in a restaurant to take away is leaving your card wide open to be 'skimmed' or the details recorded in some other way.

As for ATM machines, I always try to use the ones in the bank lobbies inside large shopping centres, this is not always possible I know. Other ones that I feel are safer to use are the ones in the MRT stations as security appears pretty high there. (Staff, Camera's).

It would appear that it's the Thai banks that are the hardest to get to cough up if you do get scammed. I do have a Thai bank account, but have little use for it as I have no income in baht, but again, when I do use the card for that account I always try to use a ATM inside the banks lobby in a shopping centre.

These are pretty simple measures to take to minimize the risk or at least minimize the damage card fraud could cause.

It may be true to say that it's possible to claim the money back if you get scammed, but for me, well, I'd rather do without the stress and hassle of it all.

Edited November 8, 2008 by thecatman

[loganberry]

ATM and credit card fraud is growing like crazy among Bangkok retailers and register employees. In fact, you should check out an article written in "Big Chili" magazine in June or July 2008 explaining the exact same thing. The fact is that the ATM and debit/credit cards (sometimes functioning as one card) as easy to copy under the table in a quick second by swiping it through a secret box that records the information in your magnetic strip. Then they can use that information to make a plastic card with the magnetic strip on the back containing the information from YOUR CARD. So beware of using the card at retailers or letting people run it through the machine on debit/credit.

As far as getting the PIN number, Thai people seem to stand way too close to us foreigners when we use the ATM and we have pretty much accepted that as normal. Hence, the ones really trying to get the number can get it just by watching you at the ATM.

I had my credit card stolen once here (not really stolen but somehow somebody made a copy of my card). I used it at an establishment that I frequently go to, but then I stopped using the card (a Visa card from the US). About one month later I saw that my card has been used for over $3,000 throughout Paris and London. So maybe they are selling the magnetic strips to crooks worldwide now.

My advice, Thai banks have no (or lacking) consumer protection or fraud protection insurance for their users... especially on ATM cards. Change your PIN number regularly and if you must use it for a debit transaction... follow the cashier to the counter and watch them swipe it. Some people are even rumored to be taking photos of your credit card (back and front) with their cell phones at the counter. This way they have all the information they need to make a look-a-like card.

Good luck. Get a new card, change the PIN, and don't trust Bangkok Bank. Even their merchant services are way below par and subject to a lot of "holes" and under-dealings. Kasikorn and HSBC are better for their protection quality. With Kasikorn you can arrange it so that every time there is a transaction on the card (via ATM or credit) you will receive an instant SMS message on your mobile detailing the amount, time, and place of use. If you had that kind of service, you would have known the problem right when it was happening.

Last thing, the cameras at the ATM are a joke. Let me know if they really helped you obtain any video from the ATM because I have learned most of them (especially through Thai banks) to be for looks and don't really work. The larger banks will sometimes buy a third-party insurance policy for fraud protection on each customer... so that when a customer gets their card stolen it is the insurance policy and not the actual bank paying for the financial loss. But in Thailand they have not really passed much of the same standardization measures requiring those fraud insurance policies (where the insurance companies, in turn, require the bank to have working cameras on the ATMs) or even requiring the ATM cameras. They just use them for looks many times and they haven't functioned well in years.

Edited November 9, 2008 by consultingasia

[uncletom]

Well it is good to see that this topic is taken seriously and to hear different horror stories that have had a fair outcome.

For me I wasn't aware of the key pad, but now I am.

We know that Phuket, certain parts of Bangkok and Chiang Mai are targets. Pattaya is A TARGET for sure. One of the best suggestions was to use ATM's inside malls but evewn after they close there is no sure fire way to protcet ones self unless they are aware. I would even supect that an ATM outside the police station on a street is not safe, for most of the time here, a crime goes unnoticed directly under the noses.

Never let the guard down, and this is not purely organized crime from solemnbly inside Thailand. This is organized international crime that might have the police payed off to turn a blind eye to get a cut of the takings.

Never know, so always suspect the weirdesr scenarrio.

[uncletom]

New today in the Bkk Post about ATM Fraud arrests.

Just as I had stated in my last post as a maybe, but the maybe is true. A police man was involved..

Don't figure!

Uncletom

Article pasted below.......................

Five arrested for role in ATM 'skimming' racket

Multinational gang targeted tourist hotspots

KING-OUA LAOHONG

Somchai Pichitsurakij, president of the Fraud Working Group, shows how a skimmer attached to an ATM can encrypt and copy data on to a card’s magnetic strip. Three Thai and two Romanian men have been arrested and charged with card fraud causing 50 million baht worth of damage. SAROT MEKSOPHAWANNAKUL

The Department of Special Investigation (DSI) and police have charged three Thais and two Romanians with credit card fraud for installing skimmer devices and spy cameras on ATMs to copy the card data on to magnetic strips and to see the PIN numbers.

DSI deputy chief Pol Col Narat Sawettanant estimated the transnational gang had caused around 50 million baht of damage.

[[u]b]Pol Snr Sgt-Maj Pramote Piathong, 41[/b[/u]], Ionut Buliarca, 28 and Robert Rotru, 29, were arrested on Monday at a beer garden in the Esplanade shopping complex.

Their testimony led to the arrest of Jirayos Siribawornkiat, 43, and Pontagorn Deeprasert. Two other suspects are still at large, police said.

They were charged with credit card fraud and using counterfeit credit cards.

Police sought warrants for their arrest from the Min Buri Court after tracking down the gang, which used card information obtained from skimmers and spy cameras to produce fake cards.

They then used the cards to purchase goods or to withdraw cash from the card owners' accounts.

Items seized from the suspects included skimmer devices, two spy cameras, a gun and four mobile phones.

Police believed the suspects had close links with a local gang, led by Thibodi Theera-udomgul, arrested on Sept 5 together with five other members, 25 counterfeit cards and 102 sets of card data in the Chang Wattana area of Nonthaburi.

Somchai Pichitsurakij, president of the Fraud Working Group, said fraudulent transactions cost each bank 10-15 million baht a year.

"The gangs operate at tourist areas, for example Phuket, Phangnga, Krabi, Chiang Mai and Bangkok's Ratchadaphisek, Sukhumvit and Siam Square," he said.