My Initial Post: Need Head's Up On Living/working In Thailand!

[Soutpeel]

BTW, I am curious how far you would take your advice. Do you think all the people on NO WORK retirement visas who are trading their non-Thai investment accounts are working illegally and should all be required to start Thai companies and obtain work permits (which they can never get doing that on a retirement visa)?

Simple answer is No....

As we know there are a particular set of requirements for retiree's, ie over 50 and the financial requirements tied to the visa, therefore I would suggest in terms of the Thai immigration, they would consider attending to ones financial affairs, not being considered as "working"

In the case of the OP, he is not over 50, so we can't use this rational or argument...

Lets consider what the OP stated in his first post:

2) What employment-related issues arise with following facts:

a. I wish to continue my employment with US based employer, via simple telephone/email

b. No Thai office required at the moment (simply work from home)

Therefore by the OP's own admission, he intends to operate a business from Thailand and work....Requires a work permit

[Gumballl]

I peck away at a keyboard as part of my job in Thailand, I need a work permit and pay taxes....The OP is receiving payment for services rendered and is being "paid" in Thailand, even though it may be coming via an indirect route...but at the end of the day the OP is providing a service from Thailand and receiving monies in Thailand for his endeavours - This is working which ever way its dressed up or spun...

If the tables where turned and as a UK or US citizen you where sitting in these countries and somebody was doing the same thing...bl**dy sure people would be screaming illegal alien, working illegally, not paying taxes etc...the immigration should do be doing something about it...

These seems to be a lot of rationalisation going on to try an justify that telecommuting is "legal" and its ok to do....or its ok because to do because there is a perception that the Thai authorities are not bothered or dont care...

My opinion......If somebody comes to Thailand as a volunteer, receives no payment and need a Work permit, then da*n sure somebody doing "telecommuting" based in Thailand needs a W/P..

Are you working for a company (multinational or local) that is based in Thailand? And/or did you set up an office here in Thailand? If so, your circumstances are different! The OP does not need to set up an office. He can "work" from his bedroom with total anonymity.

Concerning illegal immigrants in the US, nobody screams. I'm sure there is on occasion tourists from Europe, Japan, and/or Australia that visit the US to go to "Disneyland", and on the side conduct stock market trades (via the internet or telephone). Are these folks working? No, they are on holiday.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Gumballl

[Jingthing]

I think the OP has his own US business, not an employee, and does not wish to have a physical Thai office. I bet you most people in such a circumstance would just do a don't ask, don't tell.

I never denied that doing this without a permit is technically illegal. I was rather talking about practicalities. Each person with a situation like this is going to have to make their own decision about how to proceed based on so many variables. Perhaps the OP should have a consult with a firm like Sunbelt and seek pro advise on whether this can be legally sorted out without breaking the bank. I would do that before approaching the authorities just to keep the options open while making a decision.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Jingthing

[Soutpeel]

Concerning illegal immigrants in the US, nobody screams. I'm sure there is on occasion tourists from Europe, Japan, and/or Australia that visit the US to go to "Disneyland", and on the side conduct stock market trades (via the internet or telephone). Are these folks working? No, they are on holiday.

Oh really, when I worked in the US all I ever heard was "f*cking Mexicans...."

On your second point, I agree with you, but this is not what the OP intends, he is coming here for a 3-5 year "Holiday"...again another attempt to rationalise one set of circumstances into another set of circumstances, to try and legitimise something...

[Gumballl]

Concerning illegal immigrants in the US, nobody screams. I'm sure there is on occasion tourists from Europe, Japan, and/or Australia that visit the US to go to "Disneyland", and on the side conduct stock market trades (via the internet or telephone). Are these folks working? No, they are on holiday.

Oh really, when I worked in the US all I ever heard was "f*cking Mexicans...."

On your second point, I agree with you, but this is not what the OP intends, he is coming here for a 3-5 year "Holiday"...again another attempt to rationalise one set of circumstances into another set of circumstances, to try and legitimise something...

You must have worked in either AZ or PA.

I've worked in the US all my life and I have never had an issue with a Mexican (or any other nationality) because they never took away my job. Fortunately I was not in the tomato-picking, restaurant, and/or home maintenance industries.

The OP can spend 3-5 years in LOS with a Non-Imm-O; of course he will have to exit the country every 3 months (unless he or his wife work and make 40+K/month). In the grand scheme of things, this is not that big of a deal. He's making money in the US, which I believe $80K is tax-free. I would gamble that he wouldn't get caught or reprimanded by the Thai gov't, especially since no monies are being deposited/payed within the borders of Thailand.

[Jingthing]

Concerning illegal immigrants in the US, nobody screams. I'm sure there is on occasion tourists from Europe, Japan, and/or Australia that visit the US to go to "Disneyland", and on the side conduct stock market trades (via the internet or telephone). Are these folks working? No, they are on holiday.

Oh really, when I worked in the US all I ever heard was "f*cking Mexicans...."

On your second point, I agree with you, but this is not what the OP intends, he is coming here for a 3-5 year "Holiday"...again another attempt to rationalise one set of circumstances into another set of circumstances, to try and legitimise something...

The issue with illegal Mexicans in the US is completely unrelated to this issue. The resentment of them is based on these issues that have NOTHING to do with them running high tech business back in Mexico from their US homes.

-- illegal border crossings

-- no valid visa

-- sometimes no passport

-- working illegally in a US economy job, no green card

-- supposedly taking a job from an American

-- possibly lowering the wage scale for unskilled US citizens

-- accessing free health care at US hospital emergency rooms

-- exploiting the quirk in US law that makes any baby born in the US automatically a US citizen

-- changing the culture, they speak Spanish and there are lots of them (xenophobia)

Again, NOTHING at all to do with the OP's issue here, or if an equivalent Mexican in the US.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Jingthing

[Soutpeel]

You must have worked in either AZ or PA.

I've worked in the US all my life and I have never had an issue with a Mexican (or any other nationality) because they never took away my job. Fortunately I was not in the tomato-picking, restaurant, and/or home maintenance industries.

The OP can spend 3-5 years in LOS with a Non-Imm-O; of course he will have to exit the country every 3 months (unless he or his wife work and make 40+K/month). In the grand scheme of things, this is not that big of a deal. He's making money in the US, which I believe $80K is tax-free. I would gamble that he wouldn't get caught or reprimanded by the Thai gov't, especially since no monies are being deposited/payed within the borders of Thailand.

AZ, PA and quite a few other places in between..

On US tax, I dont have a clue, but there is another thread running about this and my understanding is the 80K is not tax free as such, there are a set of conditions to comply with.

Think we have established what the OP intends to do would be technically illegal in Thailand and if he goes ahead "working from home" without a W/P, the decision is his alone, can take the chance and in all probabilty he will not get caught, but at the same time understand if he is caught, there will be price to pay, so to use the well worn Thai phrase...Up to you..

[Jingthing]

The tax question is very interesting. I would think it would be safest in such a case to file the business as a US business and just pay the US taxes on it. After all, the business would have no legal status in Thailand except for the physical presence of the person working it.

[strabel23]

The answer to your problems

1. Maintain an office in U.S. and bank account.

2. Conduct your internet business in Thailand.

3, Have your customers wire their payments for your services to your U.S. bank account.

VOILA

[Jingthing]

The answer to your problems

1. Maintain an office in U.S. and bank account.

2. Conduct your internet business in Thailand.

3, Have your customers wire their payments for your services to your U.S. bank account.

VOILA

I agree.

[Jimjim]

[/b]b. No Thai office required at the moment (simply work from home)

Therefore by the OP's own admission, he intends to operate a business from Thailand and work....Requires a work permit

Yet, as you clearly note that he doesn't need a Thai office, if you are working from home and don't require a Thai office, there is no provision for you in Thai law to get legal as a foreigner. Also it's incredibly unlikely the law would care. Law = rules + application. In this case there appear to be rules but not application of them for this kind of unique case. Nobody follows the letter of the law in their life, nobody. Certain things you are allowed to get away with, and the opinion of many is that you could get away with this as the authorities can't be bothered to do anything about it. They have much larger issues to take care of and even then they don't always take care of those.

Regarding U.S. tax, as he would be getting paid in the U.S. there is no tax free issue. He's considered as working the in the U.S. for tax purposes of Uncle Sam. He has to pay U.S. taxes just like anyone else. But if he was getting paid by a foreign company in a foreign country, and lived in that country for 330 days out of the calendar year, then and only then would the money be tax free (free of American taxes, that is) up to $84,000. Absolutely doesn't apply if you get paid in your American bank account. Technically, he wants to be considered "working" in the U.S. and not Thailand, right? Has to pay U.S. taxes as he'll certainly use a U.S. address with the IRS.

[Soutpeel]

Yet, as you clearly note that he doesn't need a Thai office, if you are working from home and don't require a Thai office, there is no provision for you in Thai law to get legal as a foreigner. Also it's incredibly unlikely the law would care. Law = rules + application. In this case there appear to be rules but not application of them for this kind of unique case. Nobody follows the letter of the law in their life, nobody. Certain things you are allowed to get away with, and the opinion of many is that you could get away with this as the authorities can't be bothered to do anything about it. They have much larger issues to take care of and even then they don't always take care of those.

Disagree with you, as ScFi pointed out in his posting, he has been working legally in Thailand doing something similar for last two years, so it can be done above board and legally. So the argument becomes whether someone is prepared to get legal, and trust me the law will care if somebody reports you, the only reason more people are not being caught is that due to the nature of the work being done it is difficult to catch people in the act unless they are reported.

[Jimjim]

Why should I trust you? Have you seen it happen? I have yet to see any evidence of anybody being caught for this by immigration. I know of cases where there were illegal workers at schools (usually always are). Somebody had a vendetta against this school and it took them about 6 months of weekly calls before the authorities could be bothered to go down and try to round up illegal teachers, and only because they were told they could get many at one time. Gives doubt that they would bother to go round up one random guy working online with all banking done in America who they would have a hard time proving what he was doing was illegal. It would be way too much trouble for them I'm sure. In that case I'm referring to, some teachers walking around when asked if they were a teacher and smelled something fishy just said no they were a parent looking for their kid and then just walked off. There were plenty of legal teachers there, but some were in the process but had started working already.

I agree you can get legal but it's all in roundabout ways that are technically not going with the spirit of the law. It usually involves a "fake" company just to get the visa and work permit. But if you are working from home technically you can't. As a foreigner you can only get a work permit by making your own business and it must have a physical work address separate from your home. That's what I mean when I say you can't be legal technically. You can't work from home as a foreigner, legally. There just isn't any provision in Thai law for that. You must have an office. Although I suppose a virtual office may work.

Anyway, I think this argument is always about people supplying their outside business ethics to Thailand. Versus having to pay 50,000 baht/year or more just to keep a virtual office and be "legal" (legal although all of it just skirting around the edges of the law, anyway) and the extremely unlikely chance that you'll be bothered, I'd take the latter. Others always want to err on the safe side as they're afraid of the consequences and that's fine. But those who think like that have to understand that approach doesn't fit for everyone even though it's the absolute safest approach. It's just the alternative seems just about as safe to many. It's like the chances of getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery. Not too likely.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Jimjim

[scifi]

Jimjim, it is not fair to say that getting legal is a 'roundabout' process, and somehow fake anyway. It is simple: you start a company, you get a WP, you work and pay income tax and your company is audited and pays corporate tax. It is all absolutely above board. Forget about how you do business (via the internet), that is irrelevant. Simple fact is, you are doing business, and are complying with the law. Part of the requirement is that you have a physical office - virtual office wont do. As long as you have all that, you are not skirting around the edge of anything.

I agree with you: it is not for everyone. It requires effort and finance. But it does give me peace of mind, and as I am here for the long run, that is especially important for my family.

Anyone coming here makes a choice: get legal, or exploit loopholes and live in grey areas for as long as they can. That may well be for a long time, but in this country, who can count on that? A lot will depend on where you want to be in the longterm. NightOwl888 has a link to a post by someone who got nabbed for this. I think it is somewhere in this post. If I find it again I will add a link.

It is up each of us to make a choice about how we live here. Don't knock someone for doing it legally.

[astral]

Getting married does not change anything

If you are married it makes a great deal of difference.

Provided you and your wife can show an income of 40K a month

then you will get a one year extension.

Your income can come from outside Thailand.

You must provide a certified income statement from your embassy.

You may also be asked to provide a letter from your employer,

or other documents to support the proof of income. (ie. bank statements).

[Soutpeel]

Getting married does not change anything

If you are married it makes a great deal of difference.

Provided you and your wife can show an income of 40K a month

then you will get a one year extension.

Your income can come from outside Thailand.

You must provide a certified income statement from your embassy.

You may also be asked to provide a letter from your employer,

or other documents to support the proof of income. (ie. bank statements).

Astral, agree with what your saying, but my comment related to work permits, as the way I read the OP comments he was trying to suggest getting married would allow his wife to "sponsor" a work permit, hence the statement being married doesnt change a thing....

[astral]

If the OP is doing telecommuting then I believe he can get away

with not having a Work Permit.

If anyone asks he is just "playing" on the computer.

Even better if his wife can show the necessary 40K income.

Then is just a "kept man".

[PhilHarries]

I agree with Astral and Jingthing but let's look at it another way. Say the OP was an MD of a company back in the states with employees on the books and all US taxes are paid 100% legit. He chooses though to live in Thailand and maintains contact with his company and clients on a day-today basis by telephone and e mail. He receives a monthly salary check from his company and pays US taxes on that money.

Where is the illegality? He is technically working in the US but, in fact, is sitting on a beach in Thailand. I bet many business people holiday in Thailand but still remotely manage there business to some extent while away.

[Soutpeel]

I agree with Astral and Jingthing but let's look at it another way. Say the OP was an MD of a company back in the states with employees on the books and all US taxes are paid 100% legit. He chooses though to live in Thailand and maintains contact with his company and clients on a day-today basis by telephone and e mail. He receives a monthly salary check from his company and pays US taxes on that money.

Where is the illegality? He is technically working in the US but, in fact, is sitting on a beach in Thailand. I bet many business people holiday in Thailand but still remotely manage there business to some extent while away.

You are quite correct with your comments, but the most important phrase is "holiday in Thailand" the OP wants to have a 2-5 year "holiday" in Thailand, so if we go with the spirit and intent of the law, the OP would be working illegally without a work permit, The OP has stated in earlier posts that he wishes to be legal, therefore to be fully "legal" he needs a WP.

As has been stated in a lot of posts, its highly unlikely he will be caught doing what he intends to do, but the fact is just because its unlikely he will be caught, doesnt make it "legal", OK or that Thai authorities dont care as some posters have rationalised.

If the OP understands the risk he is taking, which may be a very small risk, at the end of the day its his decision to take, remembering the legal maxium which goes something like ignorance of the law is no excuse in the eyes of the law..

[Jingthing]

A lot will depend on where you want to be in the longterm.

Right, and the OP said this was for 2 to 5 years. Not really very long term.

[scifi]

I bet many business people holiday in Thailand but still remotely manage there business to some extent while away.

Just because a lot of people do a particular thing, on holiday or not, doesn't make it legal. But I don't deny there are loads of people doing it.

If that person on the beach with a US business had a non-immigrant visa, would he qualify for extension of stay, based either on business or support of Thai wife who had no income?

I am not interested in whether he would or wouldn't want to do it for whatever imaginary reason, I just want to know if someone can tell me if it is feasible. Thanks.

[scifi]

Not really very long term.

Sure, and I expect there is some small print somewhere saying it's fine then.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I agree with Jingthing and Jimjim he is not depriving anyone in LOS from having a job and if it's like a vacation to him, 3-5 years is not to long for a nice vacation.

Besides Thais almost always bend the rules to suit themself.

[Soutpeel]

I agree with Jingthing and Jimjim he is not depriving anyone in LOS from having a job and if it's like a vacation to him, 3-5 years is not to long for a nice vacation.

Besides Thais almost always bend the rules to suit themself.

Rationalisation again.... he would not be bending the rules...he would be working illegally....bending the rules would be forming a company with the sole intent of purchasing private property....

[scifi]

he is not depriving anyone in LOS from having a job

No-one has said that he would be. He is depriving the Thai state of tax though, or does that not count as it is not a 'human' issue?

[RPETER65]

I don't understand what all the who-ha is about. I have freinds living here in Thailand on retirement visas who are owners of and soley supported by an American bussiness. There business has nothing to do with Thailand, however they do bring money into Thailand to live on, build homes, ect.. What is the problem, it seems to me what you are saying here would imply anyone owning and receiving income from a foriegn based bussiness would be illegal.

[Jingthing]

I don't understand what all the who-ha is about. I have freinds living here in Thailand on retirement visas who are owners of and soley supported by an American bussiness. There business has nothing to do with Thailand, however they do bring money into Thailand to live on, build homes, ect.. What is the problem, it seems to me what you are saying here would imply anyone owning and receiving income from a foriegn based bussiness would be illegal.

I think the distinction is owning and receiving income vs. active working and operation of it. What constitutes active could be a grey area. Of course, I agree with you, immigration won't generally get involved unless there is blatant interaction with the Thai economy and/or a vindictive snitch.

Edited September 26, 2008 by Jingthing

[Jimjim]

It is up each of us to make a choice about how we live here. Don't knock someone for doing it legally.

Please show that link about somebody getting nabbed. We'd all be very interested.

I am not knocking you for getting completely legal. I said you want to do that it's fine.

As for skirting the edges of the law, I mean when people just set up a shell company to get the visa. Also, many pay the capitalization fee with on intention of ever putting up the 2 million baht. Doesn't seem the intent of the law in my opinion.

Southpeel talks about rationalization, which I am doing, but he is doing the exact same thing, just the other way. The "safer" way. Fine, if you want to go the safer way for peace of mind, do it. However, I'm not convinced the authorities could ever nab anyone for this and get proof of it if all your banking is done in the U.S.

[Soutpeel]

Also, many pay the capitalization fee with on intention of ever putting up the 2 million baht. Doesn't seem the intent of the law in my opinion.

Assume here you mean pay a captialisation fee...without the intention of putting up the 2 million ?

As far a understand the business law, once you are captialised within the company, there is no provision / promise to put up THB 2 million in cash at a later stage, so think you have a basic mis-understanding of how a business is set up,

On the rationalisation comment, personnally I couldnt care less what people do, but what really gets up my nose is that people start preaching on TV. 1. Because they are "telecomuting" they dont need a work permit 2. Its ok to work without a WP because the Thai authorities dont care 3. This issue is a "gray area" 4. there is no provision in the law for what they do 5. Because Thai nationals bend the rules to suit themselves its ok for someone else to do it 6. Its too difficult to do...etc etc

As one poster has stated, he has set up a legal business in Thailand and got the work permit for doing something similar, which proves it at least it appears it can be done legally, So the rational some people are trying to use to justify their lack of WP, legality is flawed to say the least and I would suggest that the vast majority of people operating in the so-called "gray area" are doing it the way they are because they cant be ar*ed to try and do it properly.

[Jimjim]

Yes but there's just a lot of different information out there, so people become confused. Technically, there is no provision in Thai law for a foreigner to work from a home office. It requires setting up an actual office. Those who have gone through all the paper work would know that.

Ok, found the link to another forum (thought was against the rules but it got by in another thread and hope it's allowed as it sheds light on the topic) about a poster called singto who said he got caught for working under the radar and was hussled. Basically, he had to pay a bribe. So, to not get in trouble for doing something illegal he had to do something illegal and the police were doing something illegal by accepting it. He had no idea how they found about him. The problem is, even when reading that, I'm left with more questions than answers. For example, he doesn't say what he is doing. If it was just internet in his apartment then I would find that interesting. I think he was scared and agreed to pay a bribe as I doubt they could have really prosecuted him for it. They gave him no proof that they had anything on him. So, yeah, that wasn't pleasant for him so if you're afraid of that, then get legal. He did say that it was years ago (how many years ago? Internet hasn't been widely used for long). Even consulates are just suggesting getting a tourist visa and doing this as they say a lot of people do it and it's not a problem.