Moving To Bankok. Fair Pay For Us Project Manager?

[pedro01]

....

I still cannot believe that a company would relocate a Projects Manager to Thailand from US on a fabulous salary + benefits to hire Janitors, grasscutters and bugkillers.

Just don't add up.

Then again, he said the Salary was 58,000 USD a year, and that's considerably less than what an Airline Pilot will earn.

Kinda on Par with what some English Teachers claim to earn in Bangkok.

Anyway, I'll just have to scrape by on 10,000 baht per hour.

58,000 base salary

14,500 25% overseas premium/tax gross up

36,364 housing @ bt100k pm

15,152 school 1 kid 500k pa

7,200 car allowance USD 600k pm

6,000 Annual Home leave 3 persons @ 2k each

17,400 tax equalization (difference between Thai tax on total versus US tax on base, plus gross up of tax equalization- comes to about 30% of base)

154,616 total Gross for employee

23,200 company overhead (about 40% of base)

177,816 total cost to company

Ok, so lets say this is a major MNC with a large presence here in Thailand (there are several to chose from), they have 4 factories, an office in Bangkok, as well as a large fleet of vehicles. All this cost them about 3 million, including rents, to maintain. That means for about 5% they can get someone they know is honest and will work for their best interest to manage the whole thing.

Compared to what can (and does to the people that try to save the money) this is a deal.

TH

How do you figure that school is 500K per child per year?

Bangkok international schools are generally around 100-130K per term - 390k per annum. Only a place like ISB in Nichida would come to 500K and you have to ask yourself if that place is really worth the extra cash.

School : 390K per annum max IMO.

[basjke]

How do you figure that school is 500K per child per year?

Bangkok international schools are generally around 100-130K per term - 390k per annum. Only a place like ISB in Nichida would come to 500K and you have to ask yourself if that place is really worth the extra cash.

School : 390K per annum max IMO.

I always thought in Thailand schools have only 2 terms so how you come to 390K annum if it is 130K per term.

[Tinkelbell]

my THAI friend just bought a condo in athenee residence for 18.6m baht the room is 130 m2 i guess i should let him know that he is being ripped off badly

It happens quite often.

My long time Thai lady friend since grades school owns three condos ( bought as an investment) at Ascott...Sky Villa, Sathorn -Tai , one to live in, the others for sale. One sold to a Japanese at 18.5 million bahts two year ago.

The other Thai old friend too, bought a condo : Mahogany Tower on Suk 24 for 17 ml. baht six years ago.

I had been to both condos many times before I decided to relocate ( from NY) to Florida after hubby took early retirement. After weighing many pros and cons I pick Florida over Bangkok. For a bit more than I would pay for the condo in BKK, I got a new house, 4/3, 3-cars garage, lake front in a gated community in Tampa, with that I get fresh air, clear sky, good roads, nice quite neighborhood. Best of all ....all the first world amenities offer at your fingertip. Although property taxes and CDD quite scarry but then again your taxes money are put in good uses, so I'm quite content.

To the OP, I'm from NEW Tampa same as you. So I assume you know what area I'm talking about. If you want to live the same standards as you've been accostomed to, sorry to say you can not afford that kind of lifestyle in BKK on 58,000USD a year.

A little while ago, I was answering in this TV saying that it costs me to be living in BKK as much as living in Tampa. A lot of threads bombarted me with hi-so snobs, many claim they can live on less than 20,000 baht a month. I said good for them, I always admire these people who have the strong will to do things once they set their mind to do, for down size....it takes lot of sacrifies and life long disciplines to carry through.

Ask yourself; the different in amounth of your pay check ( I beleive it's less than $20,000 a year) is worth with all of your family's sacrifies ? As Guesthouse had say if it's 4 x, then you know the answer.

[lifeisrandom]

there are a ton of rich people in Thailand completely unaware that they are over paying for their homes

the English teachers should set up some type of awareness campaign to inform them.

"Dr. Thaskin, that house you bought in HK is over valued."

[unforgiven]

I am considering a job in Bankok with a US company that has a Branch Office in Bankok. The position is Project Manager. This would involve hiring Thai companies to do various jobs at local US plants and factories, such as janitorial services, pest control, lawn service, etc. What should I expect to receive? Does anyone know any US citizens working as Project Managers in Thailand and approximately what they are earning, in US dollars? They are offering a salary that is lower than what I would earn in the same position here in the US, but I know that the cost of living is lower in Thailand.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I have been unable to find salary information of this nature anywhere.

Your moving to 3rd world country you should be getting at least 20% more renumeration plus housing school and medical allowance.

[Jimjim]

DOH! And TEFL Teachers get from 30000 baht per month ? It certainly does not add up. At this level of money talks, that 30000tb should be per school child.

I have heard that some teachers are on well over 100,000 Baht per month, I wouldn't know if this is actually the case, some Teacher told me in a bar one night.

There are but only at the big one (International School Bangkok?) near Muang Thong Thani and probably just a few others (maybe Shrewsbury, Patana, American School of Bangkok, Nist, etc.).

[thaihome]

How do you figure that school is 500K per child per year?

Bangkok international schools are generally around 100-130K per term - 390k per annum. Only a place like ISB in Nichida would come to 500K and you have to ask yourself if that place is really worth the extra cash.

School : 390K per annum max IMO.

Have you ever been to ISB? No, you have to ask yourself what is my child’s education worth?

This is Just like your rant on housing.

Since you have never having experienced that lifestyle, not sure you can say anything more then "I can’t afford it". You are certainly are not qualified to make a judgment on if it is worth it or not.

TH

[pedro01]

How do you figure that school is 500K per child per year?

Bangkok international schools are generally around 100-130K per term - 390k per annum. Only a place like ISB in Nichida would come to 500K and you have to ask yourself if that place is really worth the extra cash.

School : 390K per annum max IMO.

Have you ever been to ISB? No, you have to ask yourself what is my child’s education worth?

This is Just like your rant on housing.

Since you have never having experienced that lifestyle, not sure you can say anything more then "I can’t afford it". You are certainly are not qualified to make a judgment on if it is worth it or not.

TH

TH - I lived in Nichida Thani for a couple of years, so yes I have been to ISB many times & have seen the kind of ex-brats the place turns out. There is absolutely nothing special about that school.

The main problem with ISB is that they don't follow the number 1 curriculum in the world - the British one. The school can be as pretty as you like but no British Curriculum ? No thanks.

Now - Bangkok Patana - that's a good school with the proper curriculum and as I recall, it's about 130k/term when I looked at it a few years ago. In the end, I decided that I didn't want my 6 year old on a school bus for an hour a day so I decided on St Andrews in Phra Kanong - best decision I ever made to be honest, it's a fantastic place & the older kids there aren't hanging around outside smoking & swearing unlike ISB It costs around 110K per term plus the few extra-curricular activities my little fella takes part in. Still a long way from 500K.

So as a parent, as someone who's been to ISB, as someone educated with the worlds best curriculim & as someone who's been MD for the subsidary of a pretty big MNC here for the past 10 years, I reckon I am pretty well qualified to make a judgement.

Nice judgemental post by the way - as an aside - the doctors can actually rectify chipped shoulders now - as you are so rich, you should look into it

[GuestHouse]

It is streaching things a bit to claim the British Curriculum is the best in the world.

The failings of that system are frequently displayed in posts here on TV.

[petitechevre]

im pretty sure the french curriculum is way better than brits.

I mean in france even the garbage collectors are 'engineers'

But seriously, from all around the world the french are those who i have seen getting the best education.. they had school that followed the french system in canada and ALL their students were about 4 years ahead of normal schools(private schools included)

[esprit]

im pretty sure the french curriculum is way better than brits.

I mean in france even the garbage collectors are 'engineers'

But seriously, from all around the world the french are those who i have seen getting the best education.. they had school that followed the french system in canada and ALL their students were about 4 years ahead of normal schools(private schools included)

You French ? If they are that good how is it they still drive on the wrong side of the road ?

[bkkjames]

im pretty sure the french curriculum is way better than brits.

I mean in france even the garbage collectors are 'engineers'

But seriously, from all around the world the french are those who i have seen getting the best education.. they had school that followed the french system in canada and ALL their students were about 4 years ahead of normal schools(private schools included)

hahahaha, mate sorry but the French Canadian school system is good at producing hockey players and politicians.

[petitechevre]

you do realise that the richest and most powerfull country in the world, except japan are driving on the right side of the road?

And all the wannabes are driving on the women's side.

[WrslrJim]

I find this discussion very interesting as I will be talking to a Thai chemical company on Monday about taking a position with them (as they're purchasing a portion of our business) to help them build and start up a new plant. Though the location is in Rayong and not Bangkok, I've gotten a pretty good idea that the package I'm being offered is what should be expected.

[Maigo6]

I find this discussion very interesting as I will be talking to a Thai chemical company on Monday about taking a position with them (as they're purchasing a portion of our business) to help them build and start up a new plant. Though the location is in Rayong and not Bangkok, I've gotten a pretty good idea that the package I'm being offered is what should be expected.

So you're on 15,000 THB a month.

[dingdongrb]

The expat job market in Thailand is tiny compared with the options you have back home -

It is obvious you haven't been keeping up with the times "back home"... (I am referring to the USA.)

It is difficult to get a position back in the USA (in most job sectors). If you have read HP is cutting back tens of thousands of jobs. The Banking Industry is in a big time hiring slump. Construction is at an all time low. I am sure that there are positions available in health care. But since I'm in the high tech electronic mfg industry I can tell you that many of my friends back in the USA have been seeking employment for a longer period than they have ever had to in their careers. Likewise others I speak with are on the list to be looking soon. I am sure even some of the illegal Mexicans are having hard times with employment these days.

[dingdongrb]

120,000$ and you cant make it. something is very very wrong! you need to call suze orman 4 help. she can be seen weekends on cnbc in thailand.

Read it properly love. I'm keeping two homes.

I keep three homes, one in the USA and two here in LOS. I make approx 2/3rds of what you have stated per month. I do not have to pull anything from savings to get by on, but put much away into savings each month. I am wondering what your problem is.

[Dakhar]

Not suggesting that at all. He hasnt told us what the offer is, although as he says it's below his US salary he implies it's not that low.

My point is this. He is relatively lucky. I imagine the salary is what I call a local salary +, which seems to be a new band of pay range. We can't just divide salaries into local salaries and GH's definition of expat salaries.

The huge expat salaries are for those roles which CAN'T be filled locally. But there are a range of middle management jobs offered to farangs which COULD be done locally, but for some reason the companies want expats. They will not pay huge salaries and school allowances, but they WILL pay significantly higher than local rates. I have no firm figures on this, but based on experiences in my old company I imagine the role would be paid around 200,000 a month for an expat, a significant premium on the 70-80k a local might expect to earn.

In the end, it's up to the individual. How much does he want to be here?

I think Bendix is correct here. I work for 2 multi national companies and a Thai company. I have a doctorate degree in my field, and NO Thai has my degree of training or college degree. In fact Thailand only offers a BS in my field. Thais in my field may earn 10-60K depending on their job but I am at 200+. I would prefer one of those lush expat packages as discribed, but I am not in a field that offers those types of packages. At least none that I am aware of. The companies in my field try their best to higher folks from India, with less training, and are willing to work on the cheap.

Or they advertize expat positions as if they are chance of a life time, life experience packages.... what a bore.

[Johan78]

Call me a cheap charlie of you want but just to give the op another perspective I'm living, what I think, a pretty decent life on 70-80k baht a month.

// Johan

[Dakhar]

u gonna tell me that looks like a dump lol?

srsly im renting right now a 2 storey 3 bedroom house in phuket, safe location, neighbors never there. yard, FULLY equipement with BRAND new IMPORTED FROM GERMANY electro's (52' tv plasma+42', microwave/oven, washing machine) bunch of high quality mattress,furniture all in teakwood.

how much? 20k baht.. brand new house too.

yet i know people paying 30k baht for total dumps, only difference is im no fool and they are.

As far as bangkok goes, u can get a townhouse for 12-15k a month around ekkamai, just furnish it for a 1 time fee and u got a really sick house in a nice location.

No, i won't say it's a dump, but it does look a 40k a month kitchen and I'm sure it is very fucctional and adeqate. BUT. .. unless you have actually lived in a 100k+ condo, you really don't know what the difference is.

Here, can you see difference?

No it does not look like a dump, but it looks like I would have to be a midget or from Japan to really appreciate the vast size of that combo living room/ktichen.

[Dakhar]

Call me a cheap charlie of you want but just to give the op another perspective I'm living, what I think, a pretty decent life on 70-80k baht a month.

// Johan

That is fine and dandy, and I may even live on less, I never bother to figure that out.... but if you are in your 30s one should be thinking more about how much they save, rather than how much it takes to survive & live a decent life.

[Dakhar]

my THAI friend just bought a condo in athenee residence for 18.6m baht the room is 130 m2 i guess i should let him know that he is being ripped off badly

It happens quite often.

My long time Thai lady friend since grades school owns three condos ( bought as an investment) at Ascott...Sky Villa, Sathorn -Tai , one to live in, the others for sale. One sold to a Japanese at 18.5 million bahts two year ago.

The other Thai old friend too, bought a condo : Mahogany Tower on Suk 24 for 17 ml. baht six years ago.

I had been to both condos many times before I decided to relocate ( from NY) to Florida after hubby took early retirement. After weighing many pros and cons I pick Florida over Bangkok. For a bit more than I would pay for the condo in BKK, I got a new house, 4/3, 3-cars garage, lake front in a gated community in Tampa, with that I get fresh air, clear sky, good roads, nice quite neighborhood. Best of all ....all the first world amenities offer at your fingertip. Although property taxes and CDD quite scarry but then again your taxes money are put in good uses, so I'm quite content.

To the OP, I'm from NEW Tampa same as you. So I assume you know what area I'm talking about. If you want to live the same standards as you've been accostomed to, sorry to say you can not afford that kind of lifestyle in BKK on 58,000USD a year.

A little while ago, I was answering in this TV saying that it costs me to be living in BKK as much as living in Tampa. A lot of threads bombarted me with hi-so snobs, many claim they can live on less than 20,000 baht a month. I said good for them, I always admire these people who have the strong will to do things once they set their mind to do, for down size....it takes lot of sacrifies and life long disciplines to carry through.

Ask yourself; the different in amounth of your pay check ( I beleive it's less than $20,000 a year) is worth with all of your family's sacrifies ? As Guesthouse had say if it's 4 x, then you know the answer.

I have to agree, I have said this before many times. A lot of folks contend you live like a king for 50K USD, and I say the same as above... and yes I get the same "flamers" that you get. But the reality is, if you want to live the same quality if not better life style that you lived in the states.... it is going to cost you more than expected.

Yes it is true you can survive off of little here, but it also true that common things that we think are just a part of life in the states are considered luxury items in Thailand. Ex. sit down toilet, warm water, air conditioning all day long, large bathrooms, microwave ovens, home theater etc...

[DFW2BKK]

58,000 base salary

14,500 25% overseas premium/tax gross up

36,364 housing @ bt100k pm

15,152 school 1 kid 500k pa

7,200 car allowance USD 600k pm

6,000 Annual Home leave 3 persons @ 2k each

17,400 tax equalization (difference between Thai tax on total versus US tax on base, plus gross up of tax equalization- comes to about 30% of base)

154,616 total Gross for employee

23,200 company overhead (about 40% of base)

177,816 total cost to company

I always assumed that tax equalization was a critical part of any expat deal (for an American citizen in particular), and these numbers would certainly appear to suggest that. But I have now spoken with two accountants with particular expat taxation expertise who indicate that -- even without tax equalization -- the negative tax impact is quite modest, if any, in my case. The foreign earned income exclusion, the housing exclusion and the foreign tax credits available to Americans seem to negate the supposed "double taxation" issue for me. (Add to that the fact that an American working abroad often need not contribute the usual 6.2% of the first USD 90K earned to an all-but-bankrupt social security system and I am informed I might even come out ahead.)

Senator DeMint of S. Carolina has introduced a bill in the U.S. Congress seeking to end this double-taxation problem faced by American expats so as to improve U.S. competitiveness since we are apparently the only industrialized country to tax its citizens on citizenship, if you will. So clearly, this is a problem for somebody. But perhaps not for me.

Can anyone explain? My compensation is higher than this gentleman's proposed package (although it does not include equalization based, I am told, on the premise that I will be a permanent hire). But higher compensation would appear to make me more, not less susceptible of harsher taxation. If someone could comment I would be grateful. This makes no sense at the moment.

(Lastly, I would prefer to blow my brains out than live behind the gates of a gated community in Tampa. Not for all the sit-down toilets in Florida. God almighty. But I will defend to the death the right of someone else to do so. Chacun a son gout.)

:: gf ::

[Soutpeel]

But if they are being paid daily, that's not really a salary is it? It's a daily rate for, presumably, contract or short term work. 48,000 daily contract rate is not particularly spectacular when you have no security of tenure.

Know plenty of guys in Thailand on at least +US$ 750/day tax free, including myself, some of these guys have been with the same company for 10 years +, personally been in the same job for 7 years on day rate, so would be interested know why you wouldnt consider this a salary ? also what would you consider security of tenure, in situations like this ?

After reading a lot of these posts, there is a lot of cr*p being spoken, you can actually see who are the people in the know, and those who are just speculating what an "expat" package should be in their dreams..

In a lot of cases established companies go the contract route with expat "employees" through agencies simply to circumnavigate limitations placed on the employing company as regards the number of work permits allowed in a particular company.

[DFW2BKK]

58,000 base salary

14,500 25% overseas premium/tax gross up

36,364 housing @ bt100k pm

15,152 school 1 kid 500k pa

7,200 car allowance USD 600k pm

6,000 Annual Home leave 3 persons @ 2k each

17,400 tax equalization (difference between Thai tax on total versus US tax on base, plus gross up of tax equalization- comes to about 30% of base)

154,616 total Gross for employee

23,200 company overhead (about 40% of base)

177,816 total cost to company

I always assumed that tax equalization was a critical part of any expat deal (for an American citizen in particular), and these numbers would certainly appear to suggest that. But I have now spoken with two accountants with particular expat taxation expertise who indicate that -- even without tax equalization -- the negative tax impact is quite modest, if any, in my case. The foreign earned income exclusion, the housing exclusion and the foreign tax credits available to Americans seem to negate the supposed "double taxation" issue for me. (Add to that the fact that an American working abroad often need not contribute the usual 6.2% of the first USD 90K earned to an all-but-bankrupt social security system and I am informed I might even come out ahead.)

Senator DeMint of S. Carolina has introduced a bill in the U.S. Congress seeking to end this double-taxation problem faced by American expats so as to improve U.S. competitiveness since we are apparently the only industrialized country to tax its citizens on citizenship, if you will. So clearly, this is a problem for somebody. But perhaps not for me.

Can anyone explain? My compensation is higher than this gentleman's proposed package (although it does not include equalization based, I am told, on the premise that I will be a permanent hire). But higher compensation would appear to make me more, not less susceptible of harsher taxation. If someone could comment I would be grateful. This makes no sense at the moment.

(Lastly, I would prefer to blow my brains out than live behind the gates of a gated community in Tampa. Not for all the sit-down toilets in Florida. God almighty. But I will defend to the death the right of someone else to do so. Chacun a son gout.)

:: gf ::

I believe I may have stumbled into the answer to my own question.

It appears that beyond a certain income level, foreign tax credits are more advantageous than taking foreign earned income and housing exclusions. Through solely applying such credits, the tax burden for an American so situated who is working in Thailand basically becomes a wash. There is no double-taxation issue to speak of so tax equalization is evidently not required to achieve a tax-neutral position.

I welcome any contrary conclusions but that's my best theory. I will know for sure when I receive my formal tax analysis from the independent accountant the company has retained for me in a couple of weeks.

[thaihome]

I believe I may have stumbled into the answer to my own question.

It appears that beyond a certain income level, foreign tax credits are more advantageous than taking foreign earned income and housing exclusions. Through solely applying such credits, the tax burden for an American so situated who is working in Thailand basically becomes a wash. There is no double-taxation issue to speak of so tax equalization is evidently not required to achieve a tax-neutral position.

I welcome any contrary conclusions but that's my best theory. I will know for sure when I receive my formal tax analysis from the independent accountant the company has retained for me in a couple of weeks.

The point of tax equalization is not to be tax neutral, it is to make your take home pay equivalent to what it would be in your home country plus any uplift for working overseas. Even if you don’t end up paying any US tax your Thai tax will be very high, since it is against not only your salary but all the allowances, i.e. housing, education, etc, that can make your total taxable income almost double your base. Since these allowances are not really pay, since you do not get the cash itself, you can easily end up with less actual take home pay unless some extra amount is given to you to make up for the extra Thai tax you end up paying.

Hopefully the tax analysis that you are having done will focus on take home pay and not just tax payments.

TH

[desertrat]

Know plenty of guys in Thailand on at least +US$ 750/day tax free, including myself,

These guys who work for peanuts are wrecking the market.

[thaihome]

Know plenty of guys in Thailand on at least +US$ 750/day tax free, including myself,

These guys who work for peanuts are wrecking the market.

It is going to get harder and harder to work in Thailand and be paid offshore. The Revenue Dept knows who is doing this and is hot on the trail.

TH

[Soutpeel]

Know plenty of guys in Thailand on at least +US$ 750/day tax free, including myself,

These guys who work for peanuts are wrecking the market.

It is going to get harder and harder to work in Thailand and be paid offshore. The Revenue Dept knows who is doing this and is hot on the trail.

TH

TH...you are quite correct allow me re-phase...+US$ 750/day after tax

[bendix]

But if they are being paid daily, that's not really a salary is it? It's a daily rate for, presumably, contract or short term work. 48,000 daily contract rate is not particularly spectacular when you have no security of tenure.

Know plenty of guys in Thailand on at least +US$ 750/day tax free, including myself, some of these guys have been with the same company for 10 years +, personally been in the same job for 7 years on day rate, so would be interested know why you wouldnt consider this a salary ? also what would you consider security of tenure, in situations like this ?

After reading a lot of these posts, there is a lot of cr*p being spoken, you can actually see who are the people in the know, and those who are just speculating what an "expat" package should be in their dreams..

In a lot of cases established companies go the contract route with expat "employees" through agencies simply to circumnavigate limitations placed on the employing company as regards the number of work permits allowed in a particular company.

If you think it's a salary, good on ya. To me it sounds like a freelance relationship. Are you working every day for example? Are you paid for holidays? What happens if you're sick? Is a month 22 days or 31 days? Do you get paid if you're not called to work? If the want to get rid of you, what severance rights do you have?

Anyway, US$750 after tax based is around 25,000 a day. Extrapolate that to a regular salary and you're talking 520,000 take home per month, or around 750k before tax. It's a good income, but not spectacular. And it's certainly not unusual for other expats like us on regular contracts with all the associated benefits mentioned above.