The Case For Using "european Descent"

[Jingthing]

In the Thai context, I think it is most proper to refer to people who are of European descent this way, rather than farang or white or caucasion.

The reasons:

-- farang is considered an impolite word by more educated Thais, shouldn't we follow their lead and NOT use an impolite word?

-- Caucasians include peoples like the Caucasians of India; in Thailand when Thais say the word farang, they are excluding people from India, etc. as not all Caucasians are white

-- White people is possibly OK also, but is also kind of a rude word to refer to people by a simple color, for example calling Asian descent people yellow would be very rude

-- European descent, although somewhat awkward, being two words, is the most polite and most precise wording to accurately describe this group of people (in effect it is a more polite way of saying white people)

-- We could simply say European people, but because of the the wide diaspora of European descent people to the Americas, Australasia, and even Africa, it is much clearer to say European descent

I have been going along with use of the Farang word for years, but I recently had my mind opened about this, and feel we should strongly consider NOT using it, and also correcting Thais close to us who use it to describe us and other European descent people.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[taxexile]

and also correcting Thais close to us who use it to describe us and other European descent people.

yes , they will thank you for that and carry on just as before.

thais , thankfully , have not yet adopted the politically correct terminology for all the different races , colours and sub-types that have now become mandatory in the west.

if you are so sensitive to the appellations you are given by foreigners , then perhaps it would be best if you returned to and lived amongst your own people.

why is it rude to call a black person "black" or a white person "white" should you need to distinguish between the two or describe that person?

people will always be grouped according to their origins , colour and physiognomy , there is nothing rude about it.

the rudeness depends on the persons attitude when speaking and what he actually has to say about that person he is describing. wrapping it all up in supposedly non offensive terminology will do nothing to prevent the racism that exists in peoples minds , it only hides it behind pleasantries.

[Jingthing]

Well, white is less rude than farang. It is OK to say black people but not yellow people so yes maybe white is a good idea rather than European descent. I don't know why yellow is rude but it is. Why don't you return to your country? Now that was RUDE. I am not allowed to raise an issue and must go home if I do? Amazing.

On the F word, we have already established in many other threads, that EDUCATED Thai people will NOT use this word to the face of European descent people because they think it an impolite word. I think we should take a clue from the upper ends of Thai society about their own language.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[sbk]

really, Jingthing, you are letting this obsession with the word farang go too far.

[PhilHarries]

How far back does this "descent" go?

Would you call a black British person European descent?

Would you call an American by the name of Stanislowski European descent?

How would you differentiate between a black Britisher and a man from Angola?

Unless you know personally the person and his/her lineage it is difficult to apply any tag except the equally incorrect farang which is normally taken to mean a white person but really could be applied to any non-Thai.

[Jingthing]

How far back does this "descent" go?

Would you call a black British person European descent?

Would you call an American by the name of Stanislowski European descent?

How would you differentiate between a black Britisher and a man from Angola?

Unless you know personally the person and his/her lineage it is difficult to apply any tag except the equally incorrect farang which is normally taken to mean a white person but really could be applied to any non-Thai.

All of this terminology is by its nature imprecise. Yet people use these words, and always will. I am suggesting European descent as a synonym for white, but I am open minded that white may be the better way of saying it. I agree European descent sounds a bit too preciously politically correct.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[Tyke]

and also correcting Thais close to us who use it to describe us and other European descent people.

yes , they will thank you for that and carry on just as before.

thais , thankfully , have not yet adopted the politically correct terminology for all the different races , colours and sub-types that have now become mandatory in the west.

if you are so sensitive to the appellations you are given by foreigners , then perhaps it would be best if you returned to and lived amongst your own people.

why is it rude to call a black person "black" or a white person "white" should you need to distinguish between the two or describe that person?

people will always be grouped according to their origins , colour and physiognomy , there is nothing rude about it.

the rudeness depends on the persons attitude when speaking and what he actually has to say about that person he is describing. wrapping it all up in supposedly non offensive terminology will do nothing to prevent the racism that exists in peoples minds , it only hides it behind pleasantries.

First, the problem often with Thais is not so much that they use the word 'farang' but that they often refer to you as such in front of you to friends etc instead of using your name even if they know it. Would you refer to a friends friend as 'The Thai' - of course not.

Secondly, if in London, I called a black person a 'nigger' or negro (from Latin meaning black) or a pakistani, a 'paki'. then if they don't like it they should all go back home? <deleted>.

Racism is not so much about controlling one's thoughts, but about not showing it to someone and causing offence. It is not so much about what is intended but what is perceived. In other words, anyone should have to think about their expressions based on race before they mouth them. I am not that concerned if a Thai does not like me because I am a 'farang' but watch out if he tells me that in anything but a nice way!

[jumnien]

I've been called a lot of things but being referred to as "descended from Europeans" would be the lowest possible insult I could think of. Anyway, all so-called "Europeans" were descended from Africans.

[anthonyu]

You have a problem with being called a fruit? There are much worse descriptions in various languages: Gaijin, Gwailo, Ang Mo just to name a few.

I'm not sure how educated the Thai people you associate with are but in my group of post-graduate friends the term "farang" is freely used and accepted, even by people "of European heritage" and is not meant to be degrading at all. If we started calling every foreigner in Thailand "Khon Tang Chart" then we'd really have problems identifying between the American and the Indian.

[taxexile]

Now that was RUDE.

i didn't mean to be rude , sorry.

but if i felt that every time i was referred to as a falang i was being insulted or looked down on or made to feel unwelcome then i would have left years ago. in my experience , 99% of the times it is used , it is just used without malice as a catch all word to describe white foreigners here.

the few times that i have felt an underlying sense of malice or dislike when i have been described as a falang has just served to warn me of that persons dislike of foreigners , which they are perfectly entitled to feel if they so wish , and i have noted that feeling and moved on , i would rather people made their feelings clear and obvious , that way i know where i stand with them...... but the same sense of malice or dislike could also be felt by being referred to as "of european descent" , if it was phrased to convey that malice.

"falang" , like "white caucasian" , and "of european descent" are just words. it makes no difference

Would you refer to a friends friend as 'The Thai' - of course not.

no we wouldn't , because we do things differently.

calling us falangs to our faces is how it is done here by a large section of thai society , and although it might seem ignorant , in most cases i don't sense any underlying malice behind it.

ask a thai (one who is in the habit of calling you a falang , when you are in a group of thais ) if they would mind being called "the thai" , when they are in a group of falangs , and i doubt if they would feel sleighted.

[Jingthing]

I've been called a lot of things but being referred to as "descended from Europeans" would be the lowest possible insult I could think of. Anyway, all so-called "Europeans" were descended from Africans.

Well nothing pleases everyone. Of course, all humans descended from Africa.

The F word is impolite. Why should we use an impolite word to describe ourselves? Sounds kind of self hating to me. The Paki example is excellent. There are many Pakistanis in England. They would be crazy to refer to themselves as Paki in polite company. They would be rational to correct people who call them Paki. Now I don't think the F word is overall as rude as Paki, but it is getting there. Why should we cooperate? We have free will, we do not have to. I realize that most of us have played along with this and probably will continue to do so. I am merely questioning the wisdom of this.

"falang" , like "white caucasian" , and "of european descent" are just words. it makes no difference

Ballocks! Just words? Are you joking?

Edited September 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[Tyke]

Well nothing pleases everyone. Of course, all humans descended from Africa.

Yes, I've just had a genealogy DNA test and my ancestors came from Africa via the middle east and Kazhakstan of all places. I wanted to know if I was descended from Ghenghis Khan, but it seems it was Bhorat.

[h90]

In the Thai context, I think it is most proper to refer to people who are of European descent this way, rather than farang or white or caucasion.

The reasons:

-- farang is considered an impolite word by more educated Thais, shouldn't we follow their lead and NOT use an impolite word?

-- Caucasians include peoples like the Caucasians of India; in Thailand when Thais say the word farang, they are excluding people from India, etc. as not all Caucasians are white

-- White people is possibly OK also, but is also kind of a rude word to refer to people by a simple color, for example calling Asian descent people yellow would be very rude

-- European descent, although somewhat awkward, being two words, is the most polite and most precise wording to accurately describe this group of people (in effect it is a more polite way of saying white people)

-- We could simply say European people, but because of the the wide diaspora of European descent people to the Americas, Australasia, and even Africa, it is much clearer to say European descent

I have been going along with use of the Farang word for years, but I recently had my mind opened about this, and feel we should strongly consider NOT using it, and also correcting Thais close to us who use it to describe us and other European descent people.

I don't consider Farang as impolite, but it is not very exact to call a Russian, Ukraine, Italien, German or American with the same word.

Even worse is passad farang, the "farang language". Mostly refers to English.....

But considering how exactly many Thais are "The meeting is tomorrow" "aeh and when exactly??" "tomorrow "......And that in important business meetings

[Jingthing]

I am not even talking about referring to our specific nationalities! That is irrelevant to my point. The fact is, people need words to refer to bigger groups of people! They are useful. For example, a crime occurs and the perp is described. He was black. He was white. He was Asian. He was Middle Eastern. He was Latino. Etc. You don't know what nationality. I am merely suggesting as it is a known fact that educated Thais consider the F word impolite, that we should model our word usage on the most polite sector of Thai society, rather than the least polite.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[orchis]

Farang is not an impolite word in itself, it depends on the context.

Edited September 18, 2008 by orchis

[jumnien]

Educated Thais consider the word "democracy" to be repugnant. It doesn't mean we should.

[ThNiner]

-- farang is considered an impolite word by more educated Thais, shouldn't we follow their lead and NOT use an impolite word?

I'd say that many of my friends and I could be classified as the more educated Thais and We don't consider "farang" impolite.

:yawn:

[kedawi]

a straw pole with some of my Thai colleagues reveal that if you are from Asian descent (indian sub-continent) but British you are a farang.

I would say that almost every definition in posts 1 and 2 are extremely feeble and largely based on prejudice about people and their skin color only.

If you start on a premise of "us and them" you are on a hiding to nothing straight away.

Edited September 18, 2008 by kedawi

[cocopops]

I have been going along with use of the Farang word for years, but I recently had my mind opened about this, and feel we should strongly consider NOT using it, and also correcting Thais close to us who use it to describe us and other European descent people.

Or, "we" could just not be crybabies about it. Some toffee nosed Thai bloke in a bar told you that "farang" was a disrespectful term so you've decided to go around being disagreeable for a while? You sir, have too much time on your hands! Typical white aryan honky albino big-nose if you ask me.

[Chalky]

A real can of worms!

I am a Barnardo's "Old Boy", a half-caste Brit and a former Serviceman (person) of 24+ years Service and I think all the points raised above are salient.

In my last few years of Service, all personnel were asked to describe their ethnicity. I couldn't choose from the list, I did try, so I asked my M.O. (Dr) to do it for me.

After almost 30 months I was eventually interviewed by a civil servant from London who came to see me in Germany and I was told that I was officially "Black - other". I really couldn't care less, before, then or now (except for the cost to the public purse).

Surely, racism, nationalism, education, political correctness all have the same relevance here in LOS - absolutely none. As fellow posters have said earlier, you should know when it's meant as racism so rise above it.

It is their country and I'm chuffed to live here.

Farang is the worst name I am called in very tight situations and it makes me smile.

I have no intention of correcting the Thais on whether they should call me farang, euro-descent, afro-anglo or whatever.

Thailand has so much to offer and so much else to complain about - enjoy!!

"Chalky"

[Jingthing]

Farang is not an impolite word, it depends on the context.

The assumption of this thread is that is IS impolite. This has been discussed to death already. I challenge you to a test. Visit with some educated Thais that are not familiar to you. I bet you they usually will NOT call you a farang to your face. They would consider it rude.

Now take a walk in Pattaya among the peasants of Thailand. They will call you farang till the cows come home.

Do you want to model your politeness level towards educated people or peasants? Don't we lower our status and become BUFFOONS by calling ourselves the same way as peasants do?

It is a similar thing when European descent people learn their Thai from bar workers. Then they speak this horrendous Thai among educated Thai people, and they thing low of you. Same with using the F word. I think we should not use it.

I have no intention of correcting the Thais on whether they should call me farang, euro-descent, afro-anglo or whatever.

I don't mean strangers.

I would say that almost every definition in posts 1 and 2 are extremely feeble and largely based on prejudice about people and their skin color only.

People do describe each other based on skin color. You think that is likely to go away anytime soon?

Edited September 18, 2008 by Jingthing

[sbk]

Jingthing, I disagree. I live among many lower educated rural Thai people and NONE of them call me farang to my face. However, upon seeing some random foreigner of whom they know nothing about, they use the word farang. It is used as catchall term for white people.

And to be perfectly frank here, you have done this topic to death. It may have been a few weeks since the last one, but still, done to death

[ThNiner]

Educated Thais consider the word "democracy" to be repugnant. It doesn't mean we should.

Errr, I don't think I can cover every angle of what "democracy" is supposed to mean, but I know that getting elected through vote buying, electoral fraud and tampering with an independent watchdog organization is not "democracy." Neither is being an MP who never truly represents his/her constituencies, but only works for his/her personal gains. That's not democratic, and it's indeed morally repugnant.

And sorry for getting off topic.

[a2396]

I've been called a lot of things but being referred to as "descended from Europeans" would be the lowest possible insult I could think of. Anyway, all so-called "Europeans" were descended from Africans.

How about honky? Any Americans remember this endearing term for whites?

[onethailand]

In the Thai context, I think it is most proper to refer to people who are of European descent this way, rather than farang or white or caucasion.

The reasons:

-- farang is considered an impolite word by more educated Thais, shouldn't we follow their lead and NOT use an impolite word?

-- Caucasians include peoples like the Caucasians of India; in Thailand when Thais say the word farang, they are excluding people from India, etc. as not all Caucasians are white

-- White people is possibly OK also, but is also kind of a rude word to refer to people by a simple color, for example calling Asian descent people yellow would be very rude

-- European descent, although somewhat awkward, being two words, is the most polite and most precise wording to accurately describe this group of people (in effect it is a more polite way of saying white people)

-- We could simply say European people, but because of the the wide diaspora of European descent people to the Americas, Australasia, and even Africa, it is much clearer to say European descent

I have been going along with use of the Farang word for years, but I recently had my mind opened about this, and feel we should strongly consider NOT using it, and also correcting Thais close to us who use it to describe us and other European descent people.

<deleted>... have you nothing better to do than whinge about being called a Farang? Get over it...

[h90]

-- farang is considered an impolite word by more educated Thais, shouldn't we follow their lead and NOT use an impolite word?

I'd say that many of my friends and I could be classified as the more educated Thais and We don't consider "farang" impolite.

:yawn:

My wife is coming from a conservative educated family from the south and they don't consider Farang as impolite.

She frequently calls me lug kwai...that is impolite but normaly she has a reason....

frequently I heard in the south "rang" a Farang with being to lazy to speak the "Fa" I think not impolite as well, just slang (heard Thep instead of Kruntep as well).

[jumnien]

I've been called a lot of things but being referred to as "descended from Europeans" would be the lowest possible insult I could think of. Anyway, all so-called "Europeans" were descended from Africans.

How about honky? Any Americans remember this endearing term for whites?

I agree that honky would be a good term to use, but many farang are unfamiliar with it, especially those of euro-peon descent.

[lannarebirth]

I have heard both the king and queen refer to foreigners as "farangs". Neither used the term in a deprecatiing manner, in fact quite the opposite. I don't think you'll be starting a new trend anytime soon.

[ZZZ]

In the Thai context, I think it is most proper to refer to people who are of European descent this way, rather than farang or white or caucasion.

The reasons:

-- farang is considered an impolite word by more educated Thais, shouldn't we follow their lead and NOT use an impolite word?

Could you please clarify what you mean as I can not follow your logic at all.

Do you suggest that Thai people should scrap the word "farang" in their language and substitute that with the English term "people who are of European decent" ??? If so good luck

You also say that farang is considered an impolite word by more educated Thais, if that is the case what is the polite term educated Thais use??

Edited September 18, 2008 by ZZZ

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, I disagree. I live among many lower educated rural Thai people and NONE of them call me farang to my face. However, upon seeing some random foreigner of whom they know nothing about, they use the word farang. It is used as catchall term for white people.

And to be perfectly frank here, you have done this topic to death. It may have been a few weeks since the last one, but still, done to death

So it sounds like you also think being called the F word to your face is rude. I do too.

As far as done to death, I agree the issue of whether or not it is rude has been done to death.

That was NOT the topic I started, or wanted.

The topic I intended was ASSUMING it is rude, what word should we use instead? I think now maybe white is better.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Jingthing