If You Want To Be Respected As A Professional Then You Should Act Professionally.

[PeaceBlondie]

Just because we do not mention other Thai web forums does not mean we do not read them. We set the bar higher here.

[Ijustwannateach]

We are *not* going to be making personal remarks about other posters on this thread, which certainly would be unprofessional. Let this be a public warning to everyone.

[PeaceBlondie]

That higher standard here includes that we do not question the English language skills of a native speaker who recently earned his PGCE and teaches in a tertiary institution, especially by posters such as myself whose signature includes an admission of poor posting skills.

[britmaveric]

Good idea mods - any rate I think the topic was, how does one become respectable, not commenting on other forums.

Raise the standards and quality will certainly rise was my own point. However I suppose its a fine line if you rise things too high then obviously supply of teachers will go down. I think you counter this with a better wage packet.

[way2muchcoffee]

I agree. If you want to be treated as a professional, act professionally.

I have a simple dual B.S. in Physics and Mathematics, with a further year of grad school, but no other degree. When I arrived in Thailand 7 years ago I earned 35,000 bt/month at my job. Through hard work, integrity, honesty, motivation, and perseverance I now find myself earning more than double my starting salary. With some private lessons added in it comes to almost triple my initial salary. It is really not that difficult. Suit up, do the best you can do, keep your eyes and ears open, demonstrate loyalty and fidelity to employers. Opportunities will arise and respect will be given. I've found that the most significant changes and improvements to the education system here are made in the classroom, and at low-level management.

Edited October 2, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[Loaded]

I agree. If you want to be treated as a professional, act professionally.

I have a simple dual B.S. in Physics and Mathematics, with a further year of grad school, but no other degree. When I arrived in Thailand 7 years ago I earned 35,000 bt/month at my job. Through hard work, integrity, honesty, motivation, and perseverance I now find myself earning more than double my starting salary. With some private lessons added in it comes to almost triple my initial salary. It is really not that difficult. Suit up, do the best you can do, keep your eyes and ears open, demonstrate loyalty and fidelity to employers. Opportunities will arise and respect will be given. I've found that the most significant changes and improvements to the education system here are made in the classroom, and at low-level management.

I agree 100%.

[Ijustwannateach]

I agree. If you want to be treated as a professional, act professionally.

I have a simple dual B.S. in Physics and Mathematics, with a further year of grad school, but no other degree. When I arrived in Thailand 7 years ago I earned 35,000 bt/month at my job. Through hard work, integrity, honesty, motivation, and perseverance I now find myself earning more than double my starting salary. With some private lessons added in it comes to almost triple my initial salary. It is really not that difficult. Suit up, do the best you can do, keep your eyes and ears open, demonstrate loyalty and fidelity to employers. Opportunities will arise and respect will be given. I've found that the most significant changes and improvements to the education system here are made in the classroom, and at low-level management.

Spot on.

[PeaceBlondie]

... demonstrate loyalty and fidelity to employers. Opportunities will arise and respect will be given. I've found that the most significant changes and improvements to the education system here are made in the classroom, and at low-level management.

Note the progression here: play by the rules, take time to gain a reputation without making waves in your first few years. You are most likely to make a difference in the classroom, on large groups of students and individuals. Then on the lower level of your managers, who have gotten to know you and trust you. It takes years, rather than months.

[mizzi39]

I often hear the comment on this forum (and other forums) that westerners should not really be considered proper teachers because of their motivations for joining the profession. Another favorite complaint is that the Thais do not respect the western teachers and this is why we don't need to act like professionals. Let's look at both these points.

The idea that your motivation for joining a profession should determine your ability to become a member is a joke. Have these people ever met any professionals? The idea that people in the West join professions out of a pure noble-calling is the stuff of fairy stories. I was in a profession before arriving in Thailand and I met many people from other professions and the usual reason for joining was job security or trying to please their parents. I met many nurses who joined the profession in the hope of meeting a rich doctor, but this did not stop them from being professional. How is this different from somebody joining the teaching profession in Thailand because they wish to live here? I can think of far sinister motives for joining a profession.

The second argument is less idiotic but more damaging. It is my conviction that respect needs to be earned and if you want to be treated professionally then you must act like a professional. The argument that, 'if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys' just does not suffice and is ultimately self-defeating. There are constant complaints about the Thai administration and regulations but much less examination of our own standards. A professional group should try and self-regulate instead of waiting on the governments to regulate. If the problems were solved internally then there would be less need for the government to meddle. If western teachers were more professional there would be less need for the Thai government to attempt to impose professional standards.

I recently needed to attend the culture training course. I felt a bit annoyed with the TCT for this, but decided to make the most of it. The attitude of some of my fellow westerners at the course moved my anger away from the TCT and more towards our own behavior. The pure open lack of respect for Thailand was embarrasing. Teachers arriving in beach-clothes and when they weren't bithching were sleeping off hangovers or trying to flirt with the instructors as if they were hookers. This is no way to gain respect as a teacher. So I would say that the reason that Thai people do not treat us like professionals is because we don't act that way.

I believe that if we want to improve the situation we need to concentrate not only on our own behaviour but also protecting the profession as a whole. The way you protect a profession is by not encouraging bad elements into joining it. I think that it is important for us to only encourage those with suitable personal qualities and academic qualifications into the profession. Of course, ultimately it is up to school administration but we need to ensure that we are not part of the problem. Encouraging anybody and his dog into becoming a teacher in Thailand is not the way to go - in my opinion.

I agree with about 90% of your post garro, but one cannot ignore the fact that the problem runs much deeper than the unprofessional foreign teacher showing up to work smelling of booze, and acting like, well... an undesirable sex tourist. Although "rusticcharm" may have come off a little rough, he did kind of complete what you started. Reading both posts completes the picture as far as the teaching profession is concerned in Thailand.

I recently completed the culture course, and like you, I made the best of it too, however I think that you know as well as I know that the culture course and all of the other bull <deleted> requirements have nothing to do with increasing professional standards for foreign teachers, but no sense beating a dead horse over this issue.

What you wrote in the last paragraph of your post kind of sums it up. It is up to the administration, and not just on a school level, but on an international level to clean house. Thailand is years behind meeting a western criteria when it comes to education, so it s not surprising to see the occasional "riff raff" walking the halls of the numerous educational institutions in the good ole LOS, but I do not think that the "riff raff" are representative of most teachers teaching here.

The view that many (not all) Thai teachers have of foreign teachers has less to do with a lack of professionalism on the foreigners part, but more to do with their views of foreigners in general. Jealously, envy, and a host of other embedded cultural issues come into play, and this could be a whole separate discussion in itself. What i will say is that some of their views stem mostly from a lack on understanding. Foreigners are hired under contract. That means there is no such thing as job security. Most professional Thai teachers are civil servants (like my mother in law) Health insurance, severance package, retirement, and other perks that foreigners are not entitled to. It is an act of congress to fire a civil servant, but it only takes a 30 day notice to let you go.

When you are more interested in someones race and color to suit your EP than experience and professionalism, you set yourself up for problems. Schools are money makers. EP's carry most schools financially, therefore the baht will trump the quality of education every time, and for EP's to operate, schools need white faces. Even though most Thai teachers would be happy to see you go, "Chais" mom and dad pay a lot of money to have their son taught by an Anglo.

My baby boy was born three months ago. I will be thinking long and hard as to whether or not I want him being educated here. Fortunately my wife agrees.

The Thai educational system (as a whole) has a lot of waking up to do. The occasional unprofessional foreigner is just a part of the problem, and a small one at that (my opinion).

Edited October 3, 2008 by mizzi39

[Loaded]

The view that many (not all) Thai teachers have of foreign teachers has less to do with a lack of professionalism on the foreigners part, but more to do with their views of foreigners in general. Jealously, envy, and a host of other embedded cultural issues come into play, and this could be a whole separate discussion in itself. What i will say is that some of their views stem mostly from a lack on understanding. Foreigners are hired under contract. That means there is no such thing as job security. Most professional Thai teachers are civil servants (like my mother in law) Health insurance, severance package, retirement, and other perks that foreigners are not entitled to. It is an act of congress to fire a civil servant, but it only takes a 30 day notice to let you go.

Foreigners, and Thais, at private education institutes are hired under contract and the same terms, conditions and labour laws apply.

The difference is government education institution teachers. Cut and pasted from an interview with the MOE taken from ajarn dot com:

"If the Government or the MoE forced educational institutes to employ native-speaker teachers, there would need to be universal employment requirements that would include Thai Government education institutes. This is not possible as it conflicts with current Thai law regarding employment as a government officer.

Conditions regarding employment as a government officer:

1. Must have at least a first degree

2. Maximum starting salary 7,xxx Baht. (Seven Thousand something Baht).

3. A Thai Government Officer must have Thai nationality.

4. A Thai Government Education Institute Teacher is a Thai Government Officer.

Therefore, the normal practice in government schools, colleges, and universities when they hire foreign teachers is to create a special employment agreement (อัตราจ้างพิเศษ) between the teacher and the individual institute. This agreement may, or may not, specify the minimum qualification as degree and/or TEFL."

[mizzi39]

The view that many (not all) Thai teachers have of foreign teachers has less to do with a lack of professionalism on the foreigners part, but more to do with their views of foreigners in general. Jealously, envy, and a host of other embedded cultural issues come into play, and this could be a whole separate discussion in itself. What i will say is that some of their views stem mostly from a lack on understanding. Foreigners are hired under contract. That means there is no such thing as job security. Most professional Thai teachers are civil servants (like my mother in law) Health insurance, severance package, retirement, and other perks that foreigners are not entitled to. It is an act of congress to fire a civil servant, but it only takes a 30 day notice to let you go.

Foreigners, and Thais, at private education institutes are hired under contract and the same terms, conditions and labour laws apply.

The difference is government education institution teachers. Cut and pasted from an interview with the MOE taken from ajarn dot com:

"If the Government or the MoE forced educational institutes to employ native-speaker teachers, there would need to be universal employment requirements that would include Thai Government education institutes. This is not possible as it conflicts with current Thai law regarding employment as a government officer.

Conditions regarding employment as a government officer:

1. Must have at least a first degree

2. Maximum starting salary 7,xxx Baht. (Seven Thousand something Baht).

3. A Thai Government Officer must have Thai nationality.

4. A Thai Government Education Institute Teacher is a Thai Government Officer.

Therefore, the normal practice in government schools, colleges, and universities when they hire foreign teachers is to create a special employment agreement (อัตราจ้างพิเศษ) between the teacher and the individual institute. This agreement may, or may not, specify the minimum qualification as degree and/or TEFL."

I am employed at a Govt. school, so I was speaking from that perspective. The preconceived notions that some Thai teachers have of western teachers may be a little off topic here, so I will end with a smile! Cheers,

Edited October 4, 2008 by mizzi39

[ozlegend]

I often hear the comment on this forum (and other forums) that westerners should not really be considered proper teachers because of their motivations for joining the profession. Another favorite complaint is that the Thais do not respect the western teachers and this is why we don't need to act like professionals. Let's look at both these points.

The idea that your motivation for joining a profession should determine your ability to become a member is a joke. Have these people ever met any professionals? The idea that people in the West join professions out of a pure noble-calling is the stuff of fairy stories. I was in a profession before arriving in Thailand and I met many people from other professions and the usual reason for joining was job security or trying to please their parents. I met many nurses who joined the profession in the hope of meeting a rich doctor, but this did not stop them from being professional. How is this different from somebody joining the teaching profession in Thailand because they wish to live here? I can think of far sinister motives for joining a profession.

The second argument is less idiotic but more damaging. It is my conviction that respect needs to be earned and if you want to be treated professionally then you must act like a professional. The argument that, 'if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys' just does not suffice and is ultimately self-defeating. There are constant complaints about the Thai administration and regulations but much less examination of our own standards. A professional group should try and self-regulate instead of waiting on the governments to regulate. If the problems were solved internally then there would be less need for the government to meddle. If western teachers were more professional there would be less need for the Thai government to attempt to impose professional standards.

I recently needed to attend the culture training course. I felt a bit annoyed with the TCT for this, but decided to make the most of it. The attitude of some of my fellow westerners at the course moved my anger away from the TCT and more towards our own behavior. The pure open lack of respect for Thailand was embarrasing. Teachers arriving in beach-clothes and when they weren't bithching were sleeping off hangovers or trying to flirt with the instructors as if they were hookers. This is no way to gain respect as a teacher. So I would say that the reason that Thai people do not treat us like professionals is because we don't act that way.

I believe that if we want to improve the situation we need to concentrate not only on our own behaviour but also protecting the profession as a whole. The way you protect a profession is by not encouraging bad elements into joining it. I think that it is important for us to only encourage those with suitable personal qualities and academic qualifications into the profession. Of course, ultimately it is up to school administration but we need to ensure that we are not part of the problem. Encouraging anybody and his dog into becoming a teacher in Thailand is not the way to go - in my opinion.

[ozlegend]

Bravo Garro. Thankfully the farang with just one month's training and usually no degree is the minority in English Language Teaching around the world.

[mark lamai]

it don't matter what you do,

or how incredibly nice, polite, well dressed and a s s licking you are,

you will never be given respect from thai bosses.

its that simple................................................

[way2muchcoffee]

it don't matter what you do,

or how incredibly nice, polite, well dressed and a s s licking you are,

you will never be given respect from thai bosses.

its that simple................................................

Grossly inaccurate. Having worked full or part time for 12 schools/companies in Thailand I can tell you that your assertion is simply untrue.

Edited October 6, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[PeaceBlondie]

Agreed, you get a certain, Thai kind of respect if you play by the rules, say you like Thai food, say Thai women are gorgeous, say yes when you mean no, etc. It will never be the level of respect that they show for their most revered Thais, of course. But my worst psycho boss in Texas had no respect for anybody.

[Slip]

it don't matter what you do,

or how incredibly nice, polite, well dressed and a s s licking you are,

you will never be given respect from thai bosses.

its that simple................................................

I'm lower level management in my school (upper of the farang) and I have to say both my boss and my oppo treat me with a great amount of respect and friendliness- This comment is trollish nonsense IMO.

[Ijustwannateach]

As I recently said on a thread about general employment, I think I've gotten plenty of respect from Thai employers in education as long as I deserved it but did not demand it. Working hard, doing my job well, not making trouble- they all add up.

"S"

[stevejones123]

writes reviews of brothels on his website is probably a little bit wide of normal.

Indeed true; few teachers use their own time to provide useful advice for their students.

On a more serious note I think the problem is that it is not at all clear what the standards are. Thai standards suggest professionals wear a tie, but in the West a tie is a sign you work in retail or a restaurant. Certainly ties are not the norm in university positions in the west. I normally try and wear business casual for work, and if it's hot, which it nearly always is, tell anyone who suggests I wear a tie that if they want me to dress better than Bill Gates and Steve Jobs then they've got to pay me more than them. One poster disapproved of teachers going out for a beer at lunchtime. When I taught in schools in the UK I would not go to the pub at lunchtime that often because of the cost, but nobody would have objected (the head did bawl out a teacher in a staff meeting because he had seen him eating an ice-lolly in the street though). Certainly the only countries I've taught in where going out for a beer at lunchtime would lead to trouble were those like Kuwait and Saudi where beer was illegal.

[Ijustwannateach]

I think where the conflict between the points of view expressed ^ and further back come up are in what local standards recommend. For local standards, the tie is recommended (but not usually worn by most Thai male teachers, from what I can tell). Furthermore, alcohol or smoking for teachers is strictly taboo, especially in the daytime or where students or their families might see them- and that taboo *is* followed by most Thai teachers.