Do Thais Lack A Developed Ego?

[PAPA DUCK]

Freudian psychology couldn't possibly apply to the Thai development of the Id, the Ego or even the super ego.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why is that? Are Thais not human?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you ask? Are you in need of a therapy ? If so, I'll have to refer you to Dr Pat Pong

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You made a statement... I asked a question regarding your statement? Simple. If you cannot answer the quesion about your statement it is a poor defence to suggest that I may be in need of therapy. Perhaps you should read your Freudian psychology again... or go see Dr. Pat Pong yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you conveniently quoted only the first sentence of my post. I suggested a humanistic approach...and you responded with silliness about Thais not being human. My post in actuality supported and supports your view. But you're so wrapped around the axle trying to portray your own intelligence you failed to see that. I have no problem with your responses or strong street level knowledge.

[Boon Mee]

Many, many, many people complain of all the things that I am talking about, and you will find comments about Thais being deceitful and acting like children on all thai forums.  This isn't about me.  Nice try.

For y'all that have read anything I've posted in overwhelming positive support of Thais, their culture and the many beautiful aspects of Thailand - will know it ain't a sham. So, with that said, I have to agree, however reluctantly, with the basic premise of Falang Pan's message here. What does not hold water though is any subjective criticism of Thais based on a Farang's impressions coming from a western culture.

Thais find Farang naive and sometimes stupid & we can say they are sometimes indolent and child-like.

Mai Pen Rai!

As previously said, it's not just Thailand but Asia in general - more especially China, Singapore, Viet Nam etc where you'll encounter the "inscrutable" Oriental. You either like it here or you don't - no place or people are "perfect"

[padma]

Farang Pan,

You are too much in your head yet you have no control of your own inner world.

Unless you change the way you think you will always be attracting the same experiences. See what it is about yourself that you need to change in order to have positive experiences with thai women or women in general.

I think cross cultural relationships are challenging. If you were serious about any of the relationships you had with any of these thai women you would have adapted to their culture and way of thinking. At one point one does have to let go of the ego to allow for growth.

It's all on how you think.

[a man with a plan]

Anyway... now that we are all in agreement (for f*cks sake let's just pretend okay) I would like to say, I don't think Falang Pan hould post again just so he can keep his number of posts at 69... and so we don't have to hear any more of his whingey overly analytical bollocksy crap.

[PAPA DUCK]

You made a statement... I asked a question regarding your statement? Simple. If you cannot answer the quesion about your statement it is a poor defence to suggest that I may be in need of therapy. Perhaps you should read your Freudian psychology again... or go see Dr. Pat Pong yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you conveniently quoted only the first sentence of my post. I suggested a humanistic approach...and you responded with silliness about Thais not being human. My post in actuality supported and supports your view. But you're so wrapped around the axle trying to portray your own intelligence you failed to see that. I have no problem with your responses or strong street level knowledge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Freudian psychology couldn't possibly apply to the Thai development of the Id, the Ego or even the super ego. I would venture to guess there is a more humanistic explanation ph34r.gif

Ok... sorry if I misunderstood you. Here is your whole post, "Freudian psychology couldn't possibly apply to the Thai development of the Id, the Ego or even the super ego. I would venture to guess there is a more humanistic explanation."

The question I wanted to ask was pertaining to your first sentance. I thought Freudian psychology was 'human psychology'. Hence my question, "Are Thais not human then?" or words of similar meaning.

I then thought it unnessessary for you to suggest I may be in need of therapy?

I also think the accusation of being wrapped around the axle etc. was also out of order. I do not need to try to portray anything reguarding my intelligence... readers can judge that... and besides, I have proof from MENSA

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're not wrong. There are several schools of psychology and psychiatry. No one school can be used to diagnose each and every issue or psychosis. I personally am more interested in an eclectic blend of all the schools of thought.

I side with you on nearly all your thoughts on the matter and don't take seriously any negative postings by posters about Thai people. The Thais are a unique and wonderful people in their own right. Frankly, I don't get put downs of Thais by expats living in Thailand at all. You know what you're getting into so why go there if you can't adapt ? Adapt, overcome, improvise. I can't find anything at all conclsive that would indicate Thai people are any less inteligent than any other race of people.

[mr. p]

>> Adapt, overcome, improvise. I can't find anything at all conclsive that would indicate Thai people are any less inteligent than any other race of people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Adapt, adapt, adapt. So sensitive, so culturally sensitve. So pluralistic. Wow, how enlightented.

Take a glance at developmental psychology before coming back with your egalitarian multicultural stance. Development is not a dirty word.

[wiseman]

Constructive comments here then.

[dugdig]

Farang Pan,

Now I understand that you don't think that all Thais have 'underdeveloped egos'. I'm glad to hear that. My ideas about egos seems to be different from yours so I would like to ask you some questions so I can learn about (or maybe even influence) your ideas.

You have compared Thai people to children in that they both will change public personna depending on the situation. You assert that this may be because both lack fully developed egos. My view is that children have not yet developed a barrier in their psyche...a barrier which protects and holds constant the sense of self. It is the strength of these barriers that gives strength to the ego...in my way of thinking. You talk about Thai's being nothing but barrier...to me this means that they have incredibly strong egos. Perhaps you believe there is nothing inside the barrier. In my experience a strong barrier is used to either guard something of great value or to protect something very week or to trick threateners into thinking there is something important insilde so their attacks will gain nothing even if the barrier is breached. I can't prove that any of these three are operable here...but why do you think these people create these incredible barriers that you perceive.

And also, I forget exactly who posted what but wasn't it you who said that the barrier never comes down? If so then how do you know there is nothing inside?

It might be interesting to compare Christianity and Buddhism in regards to how they comment on things relating to ego. Oh and I definitely disagree with your statement (at least I think it was you that said it) that a strong ego is necessary for moral developement. Could you amplify your thoughts on this?

[mr. p]

You have compared Thai people to children in that they both will change public personna depending on the situation.  You assert that this may be because both lack fully developed egos.  My view is that children have not yet developed a barrier in their psyche...a barrier which protects and holds constant the sense of self.  It is the strength of these barriers that gives strength to the ego...in my way of thinking.  You talk about Thai's being nothing but barrier...to me this means that they have incredibly strong egos.  Perhaps you believe there is nothing inside the barrier.  In my experience a strong barrier is used to either guard something of great value or to protect something very week or to trick threateners into thinking there is something important insilde so their attacks will gain nothing even if the barrier is breached.  I can't prove that any of these three are operable here...but why do you think these people create these incredible barriers that you perceive.

And also, I forget exactly who posted what but wasn't it you who said that the barrier never comes down?  If so then how do you know there is nothing inside?

It might be interesting to compare Christianity and Buddhism in regards to how they comment on things relating to ego.  Oh and I definitely disagree with your statement (at least I think it was you that said it) that a strong ego is necessary for moral developement.  Could you amplify your thoughts on this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

>My view is that children have not yet developed a barrier in their psyche...

I'd have to disagree. Development is not so much about developing a barrier as it is developing the capacity to visualize. To organize perceptions into a coherent whole. A child has limited ability to organize her feelings and the feelings of others into patterns and groups, and it all gets mushed together. Dad is feeling bad? I'm feeling bad! No differentiation.

>You talk about Thai's being nothing but barrier...to me this means that they have incredibly strong egos.

Well, theoretically that could be true, yes. Someone with a strong sense of self could be play acting, yet still be in touch with an inner compass and an inner heart that feels and sees love. But in practice habitual liers tend to fragment and loose touch of what is a lie and what is the truth. Habitual liers pass lie detector tests because they don't even know that they are lying. The become parted up like pieces of an orange - each slice existing only in each moment, not talking to other slices. The visualization can't handle the whole orange at the same time.

>... the barrier never comes down? If so then how do you know there is nothing inside?

Inference. Inference is a valid means of creating testable theory. We rely on it, fundamentally.

>It might be interesting to compare Christianity and Buddhism in regards to how they comment on things relating to ego.

I am not aware of Buddhism having any influence on this culture. I lived for years in a Bhuddist monastery and studied with and practiced among many wonderful serious students in the U.S. I have yet to meet a single Buddhist here. Giving money to monks, pouring fish into the river, and paying for blessings has nothing to do with Buddhism. I've yet to meet anyone who has any interest in Buddhism here.

But Buddhism generally ignores the validity and importance of any developmental psychology that is below very high levels of cognition. They focus on very advanced states, and diminish the importance of the lower developments. They often pooh pooh ego as being evil, which is quite simply a poor and simplistic approach. We all must have a strong ego in order to go forward past being self centered.

> Oh and I definitely disagree with your statement (at least I think it was you that said it) that a strong ego is necessary for moral developement. Could you amplify your thoughts on this?

Sure - a person must want to think about their own thoughts in order to rule the rules. Examine their own actions. Examine their role in culture. See if what their parents said makes sense. Dissent can only come from a very moral person with a very good capacity to organize information and their relationship to that information.

[dugdig]

mr. p,

Lots of stuff we could discuss here but this forum medium is too slow...a conversation would be better. If you come to Chiangrai give me a post...I'd have fun chatting.

YOU:"...Development is not so much about developing a barrier as it is developing the capacity to visualize. .."

ME: Definitely. I was meaning this message for Farang Pan and he has been using the barricade metaphor in discussing these issues so I thought I'd try to approach it from his angle.

YOU:"...Habitual liers pass lie detector tests because they don't even know that they are lying. ..."

ME: I'm not well versed on this but I suspect that this type of "habitual" lying is probably to the level of pathologic lying...to be able to pass lie detector tests. I'm not sure but I don't think that Farang Pan was trying to indicate that all his ex girlfriends were pathalogical liars....maybe I'm wrong though.

YOU: "....Inference is a valid means of creating testable theory. We rely on it, fundamentally."

ME: It is easier to infer that something exists than it is to infer that nothing exists. Farang Pan is using inference to prove that nothing exists inside the barriers he has encountered. If inference finds nothing it could be that the powers of inference are not strong enough (Its been a long time but I think they call this a type II error, accepting the null hypothesis when the null hypothesis is false). I would say that inference is a method for gathering data to test a testable theory, not a means of creating one. Testable theories are not so easy to create as you probably know. I wonder if Farang Pan has done this...my guess is that he has not...but maybe I'm wrong.

YOU: "I am not aware of Buddhism having any influence on this culture. ..."

ME: A simple but overly simplistic analogy: "I am not aware of Christianity having any influence on American culture. All they do is buy presents at christmas and hunt for easter eggs." The influence of christianity on American culture is undeniable (and of course someone on this forum will immediately deny it!!) and in my opinion the same is true of Thai culture and Buddhism. With due respect...I think your definition of Buddhism is very narrow.

YOU: "Sure - a person must want to think about their own thoughts in order to rule the rules. Examine their own actions. Examine their role in culture. See if what their parents said makes sense. Dissent can only come from a very moral person with a very good capacity to organize information and their relationship to that information."

ME: This was your reply to my mention of morals. Morals are very slippery even for one person thinking alone...but for two or more people to discuss them is really difficult....I'm glad to hear what you have said but it the topic is so immense and what you have written is so short that it does not begin to influence me on this topic..this is not criticism....this is why if you come north give me a holler.

dugdig

PS Farang Pan, comments?

dugdig

[Explorer]

Sorry, my brain just ran out of RAM while reading this thread . I have to upgrade and continue later.

Explorer

[padma]

Mr P,

You are heady to be a buddhist. As you you know, if you have truely practiced,

your mind causes most of your suffering.

The eightfold path

1.Right View. The right way to think about life is to see the world through the eyes of the Buddha--with wisdom and compassion.

2.Right Thought. We are what we think. Clear and kind thoughts build good, strong characters.

3. Right Speech. By speaking kind and helpful words, we are respected and trusted by everyone.

4. Right Conduct. No matter what we say, others know us from the way we behave. Before we criticize others, we should first see what we do ourselves.

5. Right Livelihood. This means choosing a job that does not hurt others. The Buddha said, "Do not earn your living by harming others. Do not seek happiness by making others unhappy."

6. Right Effort. A worthwhile life means doing our best at all times and having good will toward others. This also means not wasting effort on things that harm ourselves and others.

7. Right Mindfulness. This means being aware of our thoughts, words, and deeds.

8. Right Concentration. Focus on one thought or object at a time. By doing this, we can be quiet and attain true peace of mind.

and being selfcentered is egotisical. Buddhists recognize we are a part of a larger whole.

[usabkk]

If you dont like it then leave.

[padma]

Those who try to intellectualize spirituality usually miss it's teachings.

Also those who are self centered (full of ego) tend to find it hard to assimilate to others, especially those from different cultures.

Buddhism claims freedom and peace is our birthright. This claim is grounded in the insight that consciousness is distinct from thoughts, emotions, and sensory input. We are not slaves to our thoughts and emotions. Our peace of mind is not determined by physical surroundings. Breaking free from the cycle of attaching and identifying is a major theme in Buddhist practice. Non-attachment is a core practice throughout Buddhism. Non-attachment is realizing the background within which thoughts, emotions, and sense experience arise. The cycle of attachment is interrupted whenever we practice non-attachment. Non-attachment is an inherent quality of emptiness, our nature.

If you really understood and practiced buddhism you would realize that Thai's live in this manner and would appreciate the beautiful simplicity of their lives.

Not the constant head trippy, over analysing ways of the west where going to a therapist is as common as going to the gym.

[Boon Mee]

I understood B.F. Skinner's Experimental Psychology better than some of the previous. Somehow, running rats thru a maze with positive/negative reinforcement is more "proveable" than the above hypotheses...

not talking about Buddhism here...

[padma]

The liberated or self-actualised person can go anywhere, mix with anyone, has no residue and can mix and converse with all people. Such a person wishes for nothing, has an abiding tranquillity and affection for all types of beings, is aware of their faults but mentions none; s/he cultivates a benign affection for all beings, but at the same time a form of detachment from the attractive and ugly forms of the world. In essence, they have disconnected from the world. They are in it but no longer of it.

People in general, are keen to prove something. They fall over themselves and become obsessed with wanting to prove themselves and waste a tremendous amount of mental effort in such useless, futile and unfulfilling pursuits. Such truly is a futile approach to life, as it leads nowhere except to frustration and disappointment. If only they could realise the power and value of being easier with themselves. "

[Falang Pan]

Hi Dugdig.

Falang Pan was banned from the forum for having this discussion on this thread. Mr. P is taking up where Mr. Pan left off.

>I'm not well versed on this but I suspect that this type of "habitual" lying is

>probably to the level of pathologic lying...to be able to pass lie detector tests.

>I'm not sure but I don't think that Farang Pan was trying to indicate that all his

>ex girlfriends were pathalogical liars....maybe I'm wrong though.

Well, one of them that I recently broke up with is. ######. I really believed that she loved me too. I still do, but she was still able to diss me in front of her group of friends and dance with another guy. And yes, she lied habitually, often for no reason at all.

She is an extreme case, but I do feel that the notion of putting forth face that is at odds with ones feelings can and does lead to a fractured self that is out of touch with ones own feelings. Asians are often so poor at articulating their emotions that in a way they don't even always clearly know what they are.

> It is easier to infer that something exists than it is to infer that nothing exists. Farang Pan is using inference to prove that nothing exists inside the barriers he has encountered. If inference finds nothing it could be that the powers of inference are not strong enough (Its been a long time but I think they call this a type II error, accepting the null hypothesis when the null hypothesis is false). I would say that inference is a method for gathering data to test a testable theory, not a means of creating one. Testable theories are not so easy to create as you probably know. I wonder if Farang Pan has done this...my guess is that he has not...but maybe I'm wrong.

Most of the ideas I'm putting forth aren't original, but stem from countless studies in various types of developmental psychology. The original notion - or at least the one I haven't heard clearly stated before, is that a person who has developed sense of individuality might not be able to easily empathise with an adult with a childlike sense of self, and have all sorts of expectations that simply can not be met.

And before anyone says the word "adapt" at me again, consider this: would you choose to "adapt" to dating a 13 year old, and consider her mentality as equally mature and good, but only different? There ARE developmental differences between adults - this is conclusively proven. Some people are pre-conventional in moral development in that they don't care to follow rules - like bargirls who play men for money and lie to them about love, some are conventional - like those that follow societies rules, and some are post-conventional, in that they can think about societies rules and make decisions about the justness and fairness of them and act on their own decisions. The nurenburg trials of the Nazi's that just took orders showed that in this modern world, we have the legal imperative to think for ourselves and act according to post-conventional morality.

I'm not saying that there is no interior experience to those that don't speak from the heart. I'm saying that the interior experience is not one of a self that is as continuous as for a person who is capable of keeping a promise. It's an immediate, changeable, fragmented self. Little kids go from "I HATE YOU!" to "I love you!!" in an eyeblink. Because their self is immediate and momentary.

Edited November 30, 2004 by Falang Pan

[padma]

Stop dating women that are mentally 13 years old.

[Mr_Dave]

Falang Pan:

Your observations match mine. I, too, have observed that Thai culture in general does not have much concept of self or integrity. The lower classes of Thai culture have almost none. Of course, there are rare exceptions.

Thank you for thinking and for writing as you did.

[padma]

Ravisher,

Nothing really...just bored at work.

Just another opinion I guess.

and as I've said before

Opinions are like &lt;deleted&gt; and we tend to think everyone else's stinks but our own.

[Covertjay]

If you really understood and practiced buddhism you would realize that Thai's live in this manner and would appreciate the beautiful simplicity of their lives.

Not the constant head trippy, over analysing ways of the west where going to a therapist is as common as going to the gym.

They embrace the greed that they believe would lead them to suffering. They backstab others readily except for a polite few fresh in from nice villages. My local temple tells all over a loud speaker how they will win the lottery, get rich, and get a good husband, if they 'tam bun' here. I meet few that are in the rapture of simplicity. Perhaps if they spoke their minds, and went to the odd therapist they would commit less machete attacks. Like others in this thread have said I have meet plenty of good Buddhists, in Nepal, Laos, Burma and India. Just none here yet. Even so I still love life here.

[kanatip]

They embrace the greed that they believe would lead them to suffering. They backstab others readily except for a polite few fresh in from nice villages. My local temple tells all over a loud speaker how they will win the lottery, get rich,  and get a good husband, if they 'tam bun' here. I meet few that are in the rapture of simplicity.  Perhaps if they spoke their minds, and went to the odd therapist they would commit less machete attacks. Like others in this thread have said I have meet plenty of good Buddhists, in Nepal, Laos, Burma and India. Just none here yet. Even so I still love life here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just none here yet? Look at yourself dude You have had attitude problems.

[padma]

Covertjay,

Afraid to say I haven't experienced what you have.

But I do know if you are looking for something to complain about you will find it no matter where you are in the world. Nothing that you've said negatively about Thai that couldn't be said about any culture anywhere in the world.

Sometimes a really good sense of humour helps.

Someone once told me to view life like a 3 ring circus and enjoy the acts.

I try to do that when I find myself bitching and complaining.

Can't change the world but you can change the way you react to it.

[kanatip]

Covertjay,

Afraid to say I haven't experienced what you have. 

But I do know if you are looking for something to complain about you will find it no matter where you are in the world.  Nothing that you've said negatively about Thai that couldn't be said about any culture anywhere in the world. 

Sometimes a really good sense of humour helps.

Someone once told me to view life like a 3 ring circus and enjoy the acts.

I try to do that when I find myself bitching and complaining. 

Can't change the world but you can change the way you react to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

padma,

He needs doctor right away

[kanatip]

They embrace the greed that they believe would lead them to suffering. They backstab others readily except for a polite few fresh in from nice villages. My local temple tells all over a loud speaker how they will win the lottery, get rich,  and get a good husband, if they 'tam bun' here. I meet few that are in the rapture of simplicity.  Perhaps if they spoke their minds, and went to the odd therapist they would commit less machete attacks. Like others in this thread have said I have meet plenty of good Buddhists, in Nepal, Laos, Burma and India. Just none here yet. Even so I still love life here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Definition of Covertjay: sadness, loneliness and pretentiousness To be continued

[NedKelly]

Sure, not all Thais are incapable of planning for the future and of knowing and expressing their emotions and of talking from a cohesive honest center instead of from a public persona that is just a mask. Not all. But much more so than in the west. I've never met a western adult woman who had as much an underdeveloped ego as is so common here.

falang pan

Gees mate........u gotts stop datin them 12 year olds !!!

Glad my girlfreind does not fit into your generalised world of &lt;deleted&gt; !!

[toastwars]

Quote, ravisher

"Hi Falang Pan,

Sorry to say this, but you seem to be saying things here from your heart and not from you logic. You sound like an idealist rather than a realist. And somewhat naive. Whenever there is a war between emotions and logic, emotions win every time.

As for putting on a face that is at odds with ones feelings can and 'does' lead to a fractured self that is out of touch with ones own feelings. This is not true. I, as a casino manager do this every day of my life at work. I have to, in order to stay at the top of my profession."

so if you have your emotional/logic war, when you are threatened with a gun, why don't your "emotions win every time" and you run out screaming and waving your arms about. I just wondered? Glaring contradiction of the day!

[sbk]

Covertjay,

Afraid to say I haven't experienced what you have. 

But I do know if you are looking for something to complain about you will find it no matter where you are in the world.  Nothing that you've said negatively about Thai that couldn't be said about any culture anywhere in the world. 

Sometimes a really good sense of humour helps.

Someone once told me to view life like a 3 ring circus and enjoy the acts.

I try to do that when I find myself bitching and complaining. 

Can't change the world but you can change the way you react to it.

padma,

He needs doctor right away

Actually Kanatip, that is the most sensible thing I've read in this entire thread. Perhaps that is why you think he needs a doctor? For injecting some common sense in this thread?

[Ken]

Falang Pan:

Your observations match mine.  I, too, have observed that Thai culture in general does not have much concept of self or integrity.  The lower classes of Thai culture have almost none.  Of course, there are rare exceptions.

Thank you for thinking and for writing as you did.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sorry "Mr_Dave" but you are so full of IT that IT defies a decent response. My wife, and a whole bunch of Thai's in this little village think you are full of IT and I would venture to say they have a lot more sense of self worth and integrity than you have shown in your post.

And I still think that this whole thread is as originally described, A bunch of "Bollucks".

So there. Cheers?!?

[padma]

Sbk,

All I can say being a foreigner in this country is that there are good days and bad days. Adjusting to a culture and system dramatically different than your what you are use to can be challenging at times. I know that when I change the way I view things and let go of my ego things tend to flow better.

I do however get tired of the inflated egos and attitudes of some of the farang here. I myself am guilty of complaining at times. But, come on some of the stuff you hear is simply racist.