engmbkk Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Hi I recently received a Non Immigrant B Visa valid for 3 month with a an employer. Since I had this Visa due to fundamental disagreements with the employer I have decided not to work for them. The employer is now demanding financial re numeration from me and threatening to inform the authorities of my presence here with that Visa. Does this threat have any validity? No contractual arrangements were made. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 HiI recently received a Non Immigrant B Visa valid for 3 month with a an employer. Since I had this Visa due to fundamental disagreements with the employer I have decided not to work for them. The employer is now demanding financial re numeration from me and threatening to inform the authorities of my presence here with that Visa. Does this threat have any validity? No contractual arrangements were made. Thank you. If your visa is valid for 3 months, there is not much they can do, provided you are not on extension of stay..but however you dont mention whether you have a work permit, if you dont, they could report you for working without a WP and in the process shoot themslves in the foot as chances are they will be fined as well....but maybe they are prepared to do this just out of spite.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engmbkk Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 HiI recently received a Non Immigrant B Visa valid for 3 month with a an employer. Since I had this Visa due to fundamental disagreements with the employer I have decided not to work for them. The employer is now demanding financial re numeration from me and threatening to inform the authorities of my presence here with that Visa. Does this threat have any validity? No contractual arrangements were made. Thank you. If your visa is valid for 3 months, there is not much they can do, provided you are not on extension of stay..but however you dont mention whether you have a work permit, if you dont, they could report you for working without a WP and in the process shoot themslves in the foot as chances are they will be fined as well....but maybe they are prepared to do this just out of spite.. Thank you for you reply, I have no work permit, Maybe a run to the border to anull this Visa is a better option? Thanks once more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 No need for that, your visa is not dependent upon employment with them. (AFAIK) Your stay in Thailand is valid for the duration of that 90 day visa and should you find work the visa can still be extended if the work qualifies for an extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engmbkk Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 No need for that, your visa is not dependent upon employment with them.(AFAIK) Your stay in Thailand is valid for the duration of that 90 day visa and should you find work the visa can still be extended if the work qualifies for an extension. Thank you JD I am wondering what the implications of me being reported for working here unofficially might me if indeed the report me for the work I did for them? Thanks once more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Hi Thank you for you reply, I have no work permit, Maybe a run to the border to anull this Visa is a better option? Thanks once more. If I was you I would be very careful, the employer(soon to be a previous employer) could make serious problems for you, dependent on how far they are prepared to take it....you dont mention how much money is involved, as if its a significant amount, they could still go after you even after you have cancelled your existing visa, and got a new one... Bare in mind, you have broken Thai law Re Work permits and worked illegally, and coming back to Thailand on another visa doesnt change that fact, there is a record of your visa (s) there is a possibilty that the employer is just sabre rattling to try and scare you, but its a decision you have take as to whether they are trying to spring you for some cash or they are serious about reporting you or a combination of both... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 No need for that, your visa is not dependent upon employment with them.(AFAIK) Your stay in Thailand is valid for the duration of that 90 day visa and should you find work the visa can still be extended if the work qualifies for an extension. Thank you JD I am wondering what the implications of me being reported for working here unofficially might me if indeed the report me for the work I did for them? Thanks once more. If they employed you and paid you without getting you a proper work permit then they were in violation of the law. The labor courts in Thailand have traditionally strongly sided with the employee over the employer even when the employee was a farang. You might want to search the forum for examples. Try Donna 's topics for an example I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astral Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I assume this is a Thai employer? Just remember that Thais can sometimes be quite nasty and vindictive and do not like to loose face. The threat may seem empty, but if they know the right people life could become uncomfortable. So keep you head down. You did use their paperwork to apply for the visa? A visa run would at least clear that side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 some of this thread may be of help ... there are other threads as well http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Employer-Court-t156876.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engmbkk Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 I assume this is a Thai employer?Just remember that Thais can sometimes be quite nasty and vindictive and do not like to loose face. The threat may seem empty, but if they know the right people life could become uncomfortable. So keep you head down. You did use their paperwork to apply for the visa? A visa run would at least clear that side. Thank you for you advice Astral, the employer is not Thai but face has been undoubtbly been lost I think vengance is being sought. All paperwork was done through them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 No need for that, your visa is not dependent upon employment with them.(AFAIK) Your stay in Thailand is valid for the duration of that 90 day visa and should you find work the visa can still be extended if the work qualifies for an extension. Thank you JD I am wondering what the implications of me being reported for working here unofficially might me if indeed the report me for the work I did for them? Thanks once more. As already mentioned they could report you for working illegally, yes they would shoot themselves in the foot and possible be fined as well, but for you...possibly jail, fine..deportation...would depend how serious the complaint was taken...ie does the company have any "contacts"...not trying to a paint doom and gloom picture for you, but what happens would more dependent on what the company is prepared to do...if it was a simple case of walking out on a job, employers p*ssed threatens you...you walk chances are the company doesnt bother taking it any futher, as there is time and effort involved...but soon as money is involved, people can start doing some suprising things to get back at someone.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 If they employed you and paid you without getting you a proper work permit then they were in violation of the law. Correct.... but so is the OP, he has knowingly worked without a work permit, stand to be corrected, but believe a company can be fined THB 50,000 employing someone without the a WP, but for the individual working without the WP...fines, possible jail, deportation etc etc...therefore you could find a company who is prepared to take a "hit" of THB 50,000, just to get back at someone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 If they employed you and paid you without getting you a proper work permit then they were in violation of the law. Correct.... but so is the OP, he has knowingly worked without a work permit, stand to be corrected, but believe a company can be fined THB 50,000 employing someone without the a WP, but for the individual working without the WP...fines, possible jail, deportation etc etc...therefore you could find a company who is prepared to take a "hit" of THB 50,000, just to get back at someone... Could you document where having worked (not currently working) has penalties attached? I know i can document where people that have been illegally employed (no work permit) have won in labour court after no longer being employed by that company and have not been fined etc ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 If they employed you and paid you without getting you a proper work permit then they were in violation of the law. Correct.... but so is the OP, he has knowingly worked without a work permit, stand to be corrected, but believe a company can be fined THB 50,000 employing someone without the a WP, but for the individual working without the WP...fines, possible jail, deportation etc etc...therefore you could find a company who is prepared to take a "hit" of THB 50,000, just to get back at someone... Could you document where having worked (not currently working) has penalties attached? I know i can document where people that have been illegally employed (no work permit) have won in labour court after no longer being employed by that company and have not been fined etc ... Sorry cant steer to a document per se, but I remember reading something in a translated version of the labour law or related which talked about possible fines which could be imposed on companies employing people without a WP... I am sure you can document this but....I am not an armchair lawyer.... so dont bother "documenting" legal cases.. ...hence the reason I used the term believe in other words I stand to be corrected.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 There are some pretty rough penalties if you are caught working w/o a permit. I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for having worked in the past. The other issues that an employer runs risks with when they claim that they employed someone without a work permit in the past is ... did they pay the employment taxes ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torrenova Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think the crux here is whether the OP worked for them before the difference of opinion which meant that he decided not to work for them. I think it can be read two ways. The OP states that there was no contract. Now I would not start work without a contract so I would class this as a difference during pre contractual negotiations which led me to decline any offer made. Thus, I would not have worked illegally. The opposing viewpoint is that the OP started to work without a contract and then decided to terminate his employment. In this instance, he would have worked illegally as he had no work permit. Both sides were wrong but as stated above, the employer may decide to be vindictive. What is not disputed is that the OP used the company documentation and presumably letter of at least an employment offer to obtain a single entry non imm "B" visa. We must assume therefore that the OP did not have a non imm visa previously or there would have been no need to apply for another one. Thus, the company has spent not only time during the search and selection process but has also paid expenses for the OP to obtain the "B" visa. We have heard stories on TV before of people being refused a "B" visa due to irregularities in their paperwork and thus, they have complained about the wasted costs of going to apply for one. Therefore, I can see why the company is requesting recompense for their costs. As to what to do about it, well we would need to know what sums are being demanded and what expenses were paid on behalf of the OP. The OP benefits from a 3 month visa at their expense so that cost is entirely justifiable. I would also argue that any costs associated with a flight, hotel, agents etc. are also justifiable. No costs are due for notice as there was no contract of employment. The costs of search and selection were decided upon before the OP knew the company and thus those costs cannot be recovered from the OP. To end this matter, I would, were I the OP, agree to repay costs associated solely with the visa, perhaps offering a % of those costs as an opening gambit. Of course, if he thinks that it will all blow away then I might prevaricate and see how things develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engmbkk Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 Thank you all for your speedy replies, the amount the company is demanding is significantly less than the 50,000 THB fine you mention as the fine for an employer employing someone without a work permit, that said I think they can afford it and may just make a show of me. Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Thank you all for your speedy replies, the amount the company is demanding is significantly less than the 50,000 THB fine you mention as the fine for an employer employing someone without a work permit, that said I think they can afford it and may just make a show of me.Many thanks. As Astral has mentioned you might be better keeping your head down and get your visa sorted out then, at least then you could argue, if they started to get vindictive, and the immigration or BiB got involved that you had done what you had to do getting the non-imm B and was under the assumption that the WP was in process within the company, ie under consideration stamp.. Once you had the dispute with the company you found out there was no WP fourth coming, decided to leave and get the correct visa, as you knew you where working illegally...bit weak I know, but if this dispute is Farang on Farang (you mentioned the employer is not Thai) then its their word against yours... If you have no contract which states if you leave the company within a certain time frame you are liable for company costs incurred..I would tell them to shove the claim for compensation up their ar*e Seeing as we are taking about what appears to be a small amount of money, of the opinion that the employer is trying to scare you and no more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think your employer may be a bit confused. If you had a WP and an extension of stay and they cancelled your WP your visa would no longer be valid, thus requiring you to leave the country w/i a set time limit (7 days?). However, since you are on the 90 days granted from a standard single-entry non-imm visa that situation does not exist. Why exactly would you owe them money? what expenses would they have incurred on your behalf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engmbkk Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think your employer may be a bit confused. If you had a WP and an extension of stay and they cancelled your WP your visa would no longer be valid, thus requiring you to leave the country w/i a set time limit (7 days?). However, since you are on the 90 days granted from a standard single-entry non-imm visa that situation does not exist.Why exactly would you owe them money? what expenses would they have incurred on your behalf? Hello JD, Expenses incurred include costs for me to attend interviews, processing the Visa and paperwork and currently time spent looking for a new member of staff to fill my post. I also spent a great deal of time on their behalf researching and laying the foundation of the company, none of which have been acknowledged in the compensation demands, mainly due to the hidden nature of the effort put in. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 They paid your costs to get to Thailand etc? without a contract? what processing of a visa did they do? did you enter Thailand on a different type of visa and they paid someone to do the work to get it changed from whatever to non-B? Personally I just don't see the issue with ignoring them or countering with a demand for compensation from you (I moved etc etc etc ) but again your visa being a 90 day single entry non-imm is not contingent upon your employment with that company in any way that I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engmbkk Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 They paid your costs to get to Thailand etc? without a contract?what processing of a visa did they do? did you enter Thailand on a different type of visa and they paid someone to do the work to get it changed from whatever to non-B? Personally I just don't see the issue with ignoring them or countering with a demand for compensation from you (I moved etc etc etc ) but again your visa being a 90 day single entry non-imm is not contingent upon your employment with that company in any way that I can tell. Hi JD, I was already in Thailand, and the company has evidence of work (albeit voluntary and not for money) that I have done on behalf of other people. Sorry to complicate this, but it is a complicated matter I feel. Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think your employer may be a bit confused. If you had a WP and an extension of stay and they cancelled your WP your visa would no longer be valid, thus requiring you to leave the country w/i a set time limit (7 days?). However, since you are on the 90 days granted from a standard single-entry non-imm visa that situation does not exist.Why exactly would you owe them money? what expenses would they have incurred on your behalf? Hello JD, Expenses incurred include costs for me to attend interviews, processing the Visa and paperwork and currently time spent looking for a new member of staff to fill my post. I also spent a great deal of time on their behalf researching and laying the foundation of the company, none of which have been acknowledged in the compensation demands, mainly due to the hidden nature of the effort put in. Thank you. If no contract in place...tell them to shove it...you are doing them a favour by finding someone else for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torrenova Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 Given the OP's last post, I would think he has a far greater claim for "work" done but not recompensed for. Though hewas, it seems, working illegally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engmbkk Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 Thanks Torrenova, Perhaps I should inform the company of their own liablility, get a breakdown of supposed expenses caused by me by the company and negotiate from there. Thanks once more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalchromakey Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 (edited) Expenses incurred include costs for me to attend interviews, processing the Visa and paperwork and currently time spent looking for a new member of staff to fill my post.1) Costs of replacing you - not your liability - 0 THB.2) Costs of processing visa paperwork (secretary two hours) - 500 THB? 3) Expenses to attend interviews - 1500 THB? So your 'liability' is maybe 2000 THB. You have already left, so how do labour catch you working without a work permit? Your 3 month visa is legal and not locked in any way to your former job. So personally I would say cheerio, walk away and not worry one jot about any ex-employer who is so appalling that they threaten their staff in this manner. Edit - Spelling Edited October 9, 2008 by digitalchromakey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photojourn Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 As other people have said, your Non-immigrant B is not tied to a work permit or an employer. It is valid for the 90-days of issue. Getting a visa canceled requires an action by the Minister of Immigration and in Thailand that is something that is not likely to happen quickly, if at all. Sounds like your former employer is saber rattling. Likely they didn't pay taxes on your income either - because you didn't have a WP so there was no mechanism for them to do so. Just ignore them. When the 90-days expires do a visa run and come back on a different visa - unless you find a new employer in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soutpeel Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Could you document where having worked (not currently working) has penalties attached? I know i can document where people that have been illegally employed (no work permit) have won in labour court after no longer being employed by that company and have not been fined etc ... jdinasia, As a follow up to your question re documenting the possible fines/jail applicable to companies employing people without a WP http://www.doe.go.th/service3_en.aspx 5. Employer who wish to employ the aliens must comply with the following: - The employer is not allowed to employ the alien who does not have a work permit or the type of work or the condition is not the same as specified in the work permit. (Any violation shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to a fine not exceeding 60,000 Baht, or to both penalties) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Believe under the new labour law there is no longer the possibility of as prison sentence for employers. The fine now can be between 10,000 and 100,000 baht. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/post-a58931- (art 54.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ataloss Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Thanks Torrenova,Perhaps I should inform the company of their own liablility, get a breakdown of supposed expenses caused by me by the company and negotiate from there. Thanks once more. Others have suggested, and I believe wisely, engmbkk, to keep your head down; therefore, do not continue talking to the company. Gather your data, file it, and move on. If, and a big 'if', the company decides to keep beating this matter, then that's the time to counter with your facts. I doubt this will ever move forward on its own. So do not fan the fire. Been there. A bit consternating initially, but as with many things in Thailand the Thais seldom want to get involved with matters farang, sabai-sabai. I know, easy for me to say, but really - relax, adopt a really low profile, seek new employment, and get on with your life. IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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