Shock In Bkk Immigration Office...(out Of The Law?)

[stepenwolf1958]

Ok this is situation. I would like anyone explain to me about overstay.

I will say here all what happened and as I never was in this situation, as I don’t know many things about Thai Labour Law or VISA rules, try to explain to me, please.

Here are the facts:

1***my visa non B should expired 30th of September.

2***I came to immigration office that day, with all my papers, documents from my new school; including my contract.

3***my new school made a contract with me at 1st of September.

4***I stopped to teach in previous school; at the end of August.

5***I gave back my previous work permit book at 10th of September.

6***I didn’t have that “REESIGN LETTER” at immigration office at 30th September, I went to school to take it, as immigration officer told me that I have to have it. I didn’t know about that paper, at all, because nobody mentions that is important for me.

7***The next day, I came again to immigration office and I thought now all will be good, as far as I had that paper.

8***Immigration officer told me I made OVERSTAY from 10th September, after she saw date in that “resign letter”.

9***She charged me on 11 000 Baht, counting my “overstay” from 10th September (that is the day I gave back my work permit book to my previous school.)

10***She counted from 10th of September to 30th September, the day my new school told me to go to Bangkok about to take new VISA NON B.

11***in time I have being charged, as OVERSTAY, I was in teaching (from 1st to 30th September).I was under the NEW CONTRACT.

Why they charged me for overstay?

Just because I gave back my work permit (as she said it is from 10th of September)? Is that means in a moment I gave back my work permit book, my visa is stopped?

If so, what about the fact that I was UNDER THE NEW CONTRACT?

I think I didn’t make any overstay in period of 10th of September up to 30th of September because in that time I was working,

I was covered by the new contract and I think that contract protecting me about any overstay because all that month, I was in teaching and I was waiting my new school to prepare all my documents and send me to Bangkok for new VISA NON B.

I think the fact I was in teaching from 1st of September, should be clear to officer that there was no way I made any overstay.

I am not sure about this, because I don’t know what Thai Law says about this.

Immigration officer told me she understands that my previous school make mistake to me, as didn’t call me to take that important paper. If she understand, why she took my money as she saw school made mistake to me and forced me to “make” that overstay, even I think as I was under the new contract, overstay should be out of any question.

Please, what the Thai Law says about this and what should I do now?

As I am sure there was no any overstay, in this circumstances, I would go to ask some boss there to give my money back to me.

How about it?

[jdinasia]

Your extension of stay was based upon your old job and not the new one. You failed to get that changed. Your contract is not a work permit and does not entitle you to an extension of stay.

[stepenwolf1958]

Your extension of stay was based upon your old job and not the new one. You failed to get that changed. Your contract is not a work permit and does not entitle you to an extension of stay.

Thanks mate for your time to answer but i think you misunderstood some (probably main things) in my question...

You said:"Your contract is not a work permit and does not entitle you to an extension of stay."

That much i know but don't you think THEY should guide me about their Law?I think all should be on stand by, because i was IN procedure.Don't you think so?

You said"You failed to get that changed."...I failed?Why should i must to know what way all goes?I was under the contract, waiting for new visa non B and new work permit.

For sure, my contract is not my work permit but my contract is the BASE to get work permit, and the work permit leas to get the visa non B.If i understand steps in whole procedure.So, as i know i couldn't apply for work permit, if i didn't have a contract and i couldn't apply for visa non B if i didn't have work permit.Agree?If you agree with this, don't you think i should be protected about any overstay,especialy not from 10.09 because in that time i was under the contract and th contract is theFIRST step in solving my status.Don't you see where is the problem?I was not LOOKING for work.I was WORKING in that time,or if you like more to say i started PROCEDURE.This is how i see the things and few Thais were surprised what happened to me.Even woman in immigration office told me that she UNDERSTAND school made mistake and she told me to go to ask previous school to give me money back after she took it.Completely mess, as you can see.Try to rethink and to give me the facts, according to Thai Law, please.I am very upset about this all.Comment of that woman sounds very sarcastic.

[opalhort]

of course his WP and visa exired the day he resigned but he could have got a 7 days extension. obviously he is now on overstay.

opalhort

[jdinasia]

Sorry, but whine as you may, it isn't immigration's job to inform you of how to go about getting a visa or a work permit. Their job is to follow the law about staying in Thailand. You are confusing government agencies. Your contract was with a school not with the Thai government (and specifically not with Immigration)

The failures to comply with Thai law are yours and yours alone. You may want to cry to your new school but YOU and only You are responsible for complying with the law. Yes it can be confusing but ignorance is no excuse here (or anywhere else that I know of).

[Explorer]

I believe the procedure is like this -

Step 1 Contract from employer

Step 2 Non-B Visa

Step 3 Work permit

NOTE: You are not allowed to start work without the work permit even you had signed the contract.

Also, after you return your work permit, if i am not mistaken you are given 7 days to renew your visa (if it is non-b or under extension). This is coz your non-b and extension runs together with your WP.

Some experience members might have a better input.

Explorer

[digitalchromakey]

Also, after you return your work permit, if i am not mistaken you are given 7 days to renew your visa (if it is non-b or under extension). This is coz your non-b and extension runs together with your WP.

The 7 day's grace has gone. The best you can do now is a seven day extension to get papers sorted and/or go on a visa run.

Your Extension of Permission to Stay expires the day you stop work.

The problem here is a Catch 22 type scenario: Your visa expires when you stop work and you can't get a new work permit without a visa. It requires extremely careful timing, the co-operation of both previous and new employers or a visa run and a gap in employment.

[phaethon]

I could use some clarification here. You arrive on a non-immigrant O visa (NIOV) - lets assume multi-entry too. Someone offers you a job and you get a WP. At the end of the NIOV do you have to convert to non-immigrant B visa (NIBV)?

If your WP disappears (end of contract, fired, redundant) can you just head for the border and re-enter on a tourist exemption or does your time in LOS under the NI(O/B)V count against the time spent in the Kingdom rule? The fact that you can extend the NIOV to (almost) 15 months with a last-day border run suggests not, so is the rule you can stay in the Kingdom for no more than 6/12 months on tourist exemptions and the end of any other kind of visa is a clean slate for the tourist exepemtion?

Or is the NIOV still valid and you can stay (looking for another WP) until it expires (with border run(s) to get the neasrly 15 months). i.e. the WP and NIOV are independant entities, unlike the NIBV which is contingent upon the WP?

At the end of the a NIBV, with a WP in hand, you apply for and get an extension - the WP is withdrawn, can you still do a border run and re-enter on tourist exemptions until a new WP and NIBV can be found?

[jdinasia]

Time spent in Thailand on a VISA does not count against you when it comes to the 90 days allowable per 6 months on visa exempt entries.

If you are NOT on extension of stay or have a multi-non-imm that has not expired you may be able to just make a border run and your visa still be valid

[ubonjoe]

I could use some clarification here. You arrive on a non-immigrant O visa (NIOV) - lets assume multi-entry too. Someone offers you a job and you get a WP. At the end of the NIOV do you have to convert to non-immigrant B visa (NIBV)?

What is the O based upon? If marriage ok Then do a one year extension.

If your WP disappears (end of contract, fired, redundant) can you just head for the border and re-enter on a tourist exemption or does your time in LOS under the NI(O/B)V count against the time spent in the Kingdom rule? The fact that you can extend the NIOV to (almost) 15 months with a last-day border run suggests not, so is the rule you can stay in the Kingdom for no more than 6/12 months on tourist exemptions and the end of any other kind of visa is a clean slate for the tourist exepemtion?

O would not be affected because it is not based upon work. No visa entries and stay affect the the visa exempt entry rule.

Or is the NIOV still valid and you can stay (looking for another WP) until it expires (with border run(s) to get the neasrly 15 months). i.e. the WP and NIOV are independant entities, unlike the NIBV which is contingent upon the WP?

O not effected as you say

At the end of the a NIBV, with a WP in hand, you apply for and get an extension - the WP is withdrawn, can you still do a border run and re-enter on tourist exemptions until a new WP and NIBV can be found?

Yes until you reach 90 days.

A lot of my answers about the non-o is really based upon the reason for the non-o. If it is not based upon marriage I am not sure you can get a work permit. And if you are working you can extend it for one year if based upon marriage.

[phaethon]

OK so the OP with an unexpired NIBV should have taken off for the border just before the NIBV expired, however he could not have done this if his NIBV had been extended?

What worries me is the situation that you have to leave the Kingdom the day your WP is withdrawn - even if, in your opinion, it is unjustly withdrawn. Even paying for a 7 day grace period, this isn't long to pack up your life and bug out.

So, what would you do if your WP and extension of visa disappears in order to get more time in the Kingdom to sort one's affairs or find a new job witha minimal amount of travelling/time spent in a neighbouring country?

[phaethon]

Thanks UbonJoe - I'm getting the impression its safer to do a 15-month run to Hull for NIOVs independant of WPs in order to safeguard aginst loss of the WP in these unstable times.

[jdinasia]

OK so the OP with an unexpired NIBV should have taken off for the border just before the NIBV expired, however he could not have done this if his NIBV had been extended?

What worries me is the situation that you have to leave the Kingdom the day your WP is withdrawn - even if, in your opinion, it is unjustly withdrawn. Even paying for a 7 day grace period, this isn't long to pack up your life and bug out.

So, what would you do if your WP and extension of visa disappears in order to get more time in the Kingdom to sort one's affairs or find a new job witha minimal amount of travelling/time spent in a neighbouring country?

A run to Laos etc ... get a Tourist Visa (double entry) return the next day. You then have approx 69 days before you must do a visa run if offered a new job in Thailand and a Max of approx 159 days in which to find work before having to go get a new visa.

(This assumes you find a job eligible for a WP and convert your TV to a non-imm-B in country)

all of this is my understanding and subject to being either wrong or interpreted differently by any immigration officer etc!

[ubonjoe]

About all you can do is make a border run. You are correct that 7 days is not a lot of time. It's just one of the risks you have working here. Unless you are fired for a serious offence I would think most companies would give you a termination notice that would give you time to get things sorted out. Thats where the employment contract comes into the picture.

[ubonjoe]

Thanks UbonJoe - I'm getting the impression its safer to do a 15-month run to Hull for NIOVs independant of WPs in order to safeguard aginst loss of the WP in these unstable times.

I think you are talking about a non immigrant O visa to visit friends or over 50 for example. I don't think you can get a work permit for that type of O visa.

Work permits can be obtained for an O visa based upon marriage. And in most cases the holder would extend that visa for one year once they had the income for 3 months.

[mopenyang]

It's true. I recently went through this entire experience. Immigration expects you to leave the country on the day you turn in your work permit and cancel your visa. If not, you are on overstay. I was lucky to get a 7-day extension. It was not easy and it was not automatic. It was also very stressful, totally unexpected and something I will make sure never happens to me again in the future.

[Mario2008]

It is no longer requireed to turn in your WP. You just need to go to immigration with a letter from your employer stating when your contract was terminated to have your visa canceled.

[mopenyang]

It is no longer requireed to turn in your WP. You just need to go to immigration with a letter from your employer stating when your contract was terminated to have your visa canceled.

I turned in my work permit early in the morning to Labour and by the time I got to Immigration a short time later, Immigration had fax notification from Labour of my work permit having been turned in. Immigration also required the letter from the former employer but seemed to value very much the fax from Labour. In fact, Labour told me they would be faxing the form to Immigration. And so they did.

[Mario2008]

Well, this is Thailand. But the new procedure is described here:

http://www.dejudomlaw.com/index.php?option...09&Itemid=9

[chakatee]

Stepenwolf,

You should praise the lord (or as you would say while teaching English "Prays the lawd") that you got away with only the overstay fee.

They actually could (should) have charged you for illegal working without a work permit.

Anyway, you paid 11K for a fast course in Thai law. Get over it and next time inform yourself before you change visa, jobs, work permit, ...

[PeaceBlondie]

Steppenwolf, I am sorry this happened to you.

Whatever legal or moral obligation a Thai school has to know Thai immigration law and labour laws, and to teach those laws to foreign staff, is beside the point. Both of the very old, prestigious schools I worked at were not only ignorant of such laws, but they were adamant in refusing to help me become legal. I worked illegally, and that was my fault. In case you are not familiar with this term in English law, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

For almost a year now, here and on other teaching forums, we have publicized that there no longer is a seven day grace period, and you have to ask for it, pay 1,900 baht for the seven days, and receive it. Otherwise, you are on overstay, as you learned.

Very few Thais outside the ministries know the first thing about immigration and labour laws for farang. We have to learn it ourselves, because it is we who are at risk. Then sometimes we have the impossible task of trying to educate Thai staff about something they do not want to learn.

Good luck at your new job. I suggest that you spend some time learning Thai law.

And to those who criticize Steppenwolf as an English teacher, try moving to Croatia to teach Maori language.

[stepenwolf1958]

Sorry, but whine as you may, it isn't immigration's job to inform you of how to go about getting a visa or a work permit...

I disagree because Thai schools are PART of establisment in any country. They are institutions and they should share responsibility about foreigners because they are employing foreigners. By the way, if you are right, what for are agencies and schools at all, about their OFFERING jobs where is said (contracts) they will supply this and that?Administrative office in any school should to follow their Law, as we SIGNED paper for our attornies. Did you know about that paper, at all? So, if we HAVE attorney (person from school) what would be a job of that person? I guess to protect and guide foreigner through Thai law about working here. Don't you think so?

Next, the advice of the lady in Immigration office to ask school to refund me a money says all, right? She said she understand school made mistake and that way she admited there was mistake and NOT MINE but is it on me to pay for?

[stepenwolf1958]

...our attornies....

***attorneys....sorry

[Soutpeel]

I disagree because Thai schools are PART of establisment in any country...

As Peace Blondie has said "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

As to what is right or wrong, it doesnt matter at this juncture, you need to get yourself "legal" to prevent future problems.

Once you are legal then persue with your previous school the possibility of getting your money back, but I wouldnt hold your breath, you could of course persue this with a lawyer, but would suspect it will cost your more in legal fees, at the end of the day the legal responibility rests with you in terms of the law as regards the overstay.

As regard the lady at immigration get her to put who is wrong in writing, some how think she will decline to do this...

As a lesson learned in life, you should only rely on one person to look after your interests...yourself.... and this particular case, you should have understood, or at least had a basic grasp of the process involved, as we all know in Thailand the laws are subject to multiple interpretations, modification on a frequent basis etc, so living and working here you need to stay on top of the latest developments.

[stepenwolf1958]

Steppenwolf, I am sorry this happened to you.

Whatever legal or moral obligation a Thai school has to know Thai immigration law and labour laws, and to teach those laws to foreign staff, is beside the point....

Thanks a lot for explanation.

[Soutpeel]

should to learn what mean be POLITE and mind their own business.

The best way to serve to the country would be they guide me trough their law -

Next time i will NOT give back my work permit, until i am safe about overstay.

You posted this question on an open forum, so what did you expect, so how can you tell people to mind their own business.

Under the new law, you dont need to give the work permit back anyway, There is a letter that needs to be produced stating your last work day, so holding your WP will not make one bit of difference if the company is not prepared to "modify" the date on the letter to keep your WP/visa current.

[stepenwolf1958]

...As a lesson learned in life, you should only rely on one person to look after your interests...yourself.... and this particular case, you should have understood, or at least had a basic grasp of the process involved, as we all know in Thailand the laws are subject to multiple interpretations, modification on a frequent basis etc, so living and working here you need to stay on top of the latest developments.

First of all, thanks for answer...

I think you are right. That refunding money will be an expensive process and i think that is battle lost in advance...Unfortunatelly, all i can do is to REMEMBER all of this mess and to don't allow myself to trust on any of them, including any institution here.I learned my lesson well. Any bad who knows why could be good. Thais would stick together, they would not accept be faced with truth or to be embarrased about their mistake, tht is what i know so i lost this game. Next time - NO WAY i will give them back my work permit before i am sure all is safe for me. This is my third public school in 2 years and this happened to me once but the mn on the first floor was very professional and he called my ex school and asked that resign letter be sent via fax so to spare my time about go back again to Immi Office....He was kind and Thai in the best meaning of that word. I will continue with my belief about goodness in Thais, despite all of this.

Thanks one more time fortime to answer to me.

Stay well wherever you are mate...

[stepenwolf1958]

...The problem here is a Catch 22 type scenario: Your visa expires when you stop work and you can't get a new work permit without a visa. It requires extremely careful timing, the co-operation of both previous and new employers or a visa run and a gap in employment.

Thanks for constructive dialoque here, mate...

I guess that is one more way to milk the money. As they should to be synchronized as well but as they are not, that's look like a trap(sort of). Like you named CATCH 22 scenario. As i am still thinking what happened and why, i can see all of that as just another trap. As the money is kind of cult here, i am not surprised so much but i am surprised nobody move a finger in a Government to establish order in work with foreigners. Again famous sabai sabai? Again famous:"Farang has a money,i don't worry about him(them)?" Uh huh...

[stepenwolf1958]

A run to Laos etc ... get a Tourist Visa (double entry) return the next day. You then have approx 69 days before you must do a visa run if offered a new job in Thailand and a Max of approx 159 days in which to find work before having to go get a new visa...

That's the best way, as i can see now it would be better i did it. Once i did it but now i asked my new school attorney should i go to Laos for to get a TV and after that to turn on NON B. She says i have no need to do so i believed because, as we know very well, they are changing regulations all the time. So i assumed she knows her work and i believed her. WRONG! Again famous story about Thai's competence in work and, as friend of mine Brad like to say:"Ask 5 officers and you will get 6 (SIX) answers and more thenthat-all of them will say THAT what they are telling you is the right thing.Others don't know the Law". Now i see what was his point.

By the way, anyone have experience with Immigration officers in Korat? One Thai widowed lady(RIP Englishmen) told me her died husband gave up about BKK and made all his needs about the papers with people in Korat. Any shad of ligh?

[TopDogger]

Sorry if you've already mentioned this, but where are you from stepenwolf1958?