ปรารถนา

[mynextgig]

Can anyone help me understand the spelling and tone rules for the word ปรารถนา.

Syllable 1 - ปราร = ป Mid Class with ร as the final should make this live and so Mid, however as this syllable is spoken in a Low tone then it must consider the 1st syllable to be ปรารถ completely ignoring the 2nd ร.

Syallable 2 - I consider to be the ถ with the inferred -ะ so a High Class consonant with a Open short vowel making it a Low tone, which seems to be correct.

Syllable 3 - ถนา i correctly deduce as a Rising tone based on ถ being a Class with a live ending.

The bit that is confusing me here is the silent ร. Not only is this silent but also has no effect on the 1st syllables tone as it is spoken with a low tone. My 1st attempt at this word was Bpraan (M) Ta (L) Naa ®

So how do you spot the silent and redundant ร in other words ?

[kriswillems]

The word is pronounced as:

ปราดนา

You just have to remember it, which is not hard because there's only 1 other word where รถ is pronounced as ด.

สามารถ

[5tash]

I used to be confused with this also, especially with the word "สามารถ", I pronounced it as "สา-มา-รถ" for quite a while before realising.

There are a number of Pali/Sanskrit words that have the combination of the two letters "รถ" and are pronounced as "ด".

All I can suggest is each time you learn a new word check the pronunciation in a dictionary, I don't think there's any way of "spotting" the silent "ร" at beginners/intermediate level.

"รท" and "รต" are other combinations found at the end of a syllable and pronounced as "ด".

[kriswillems]

"รท" and "รต" are other combinations found at the end of a syllable and pronounced as "ด".

I don't know any words with รต pronounced as ด

You probably mean ตร right? like in มิตร ?

The following are also sometimes pronounced as ด:

ตุ as in เหตุ

ติ as in ชาติ

Edited October 20, 2008 by kriswillems

[DavidHouston]

The word is pronounced as:

ปราดนา

You just have to remember it, which is not hard because there's only 1 other word where รถ is pronounced as ด.

สามารถ

RID = ปฺราด-ถะ-หฺนา

[kriswillems]

Thanks David

I forgot about the double function.

I hope the thread starter will read your correction. He was right from the beginning.

Edited October 20, 2008 by kriswillems

[mynextgig]

Thanks David

I forgot about the double function.

I hope the thread starter will read your correction. He was right from the beginning.

Guys i am even more confused now, so why was i right from the beginning ?

Also, what does RID mean ?

[DavidHouston]

Thanks David

I forgot about the double function.

I hope the thread starter will read your correction. He was right from the beginning.

Guys i am even more confused now, so why was i right from the beginning ?

Also, what does RID mean ?

Gig,

You are almost correct. I agree on syllables 1 and 2; however, syllable 3 is not " ถนา" which would give three sounds to ถ, but "หฺนา".

The RID is "The Royal Institute Dictionary" available at http://rirs3.royin.go.th/dictionary.asp . If you type "ปรารถนา" into the entry box at the top of the page you will get:

"ปรารถนา[ปฺราดถะหฺนา] ก. มุ่งหมาย, อยากได้, ต้องการ. (ส. ปฺรารฺถนา;

ป. ปตฺถนา)."

Note that the section in the square brackets provides the pronunciation key. The RID usually provides a pronunciation key for all or part of a word in which the spelling might produce an ambiguous or incorrect pronunciation.

To respond to Kris, in the word "ปรารถนา", the "ถ" actually serves three functions: 1. it is the ending sound in the first syllable creating a dead syllable; 2. it constitutes the sole consonant in the second syllable; and, 3. it provides the tone signature for the final syllable. how spiffy is that!

Edited October 20, 2008 by DavidHouston

[kriswillems]

oh, I better be quiet, today is not my day. Please ignore everything I said.

I was not right and you were also not right from the beginning.

David was correct.

ปฺราด-ถะ-หฺนา

Bpraat (low) - Tha (low) - Naa (rising).

And now I an going to sleep

Edited October 20, 2008 by kriswillems

[mynextgig]

David and Kris, thanks for your help with this.

So to refer to my original question, is the silent ร identifyable when its in the consonant cluster รฺถ ? Also i have not seen other words where the 2nd grapheme of a consonant cluster is then used again which is what seems to be happening here.