หาก And ถ้า

[kriswillems]

หาก and ถ้า

These 2 words both mean "if"

But a Thai person told me they are used in different ways. She told me "ถ้า" is an indication of a (necessary) condition.

But as far as I can tell หาก is also such a word.

Can somebody explain the difference in usage?

[sleepyjohn]

I think you have to use หาก with วา whereas ถ้า stands alone but I'm no expert believe me.

I do know the pasa muang meaning for haak is to throw up. It might have a mai to as I think it's falling.

If you say it instead of euwuk Thai people laugh. I like that.

John

ps: anyone know the Mac keyboard shortcut for changing languages?

Edited October 22, 2008 by sleepyjohn

[5tash]

Good question, Kris.

I also see that "ถ้า" and "หาก" can be combined.

ถ้าหาก

[Rikker]

This is a very good question, and one I have some ideas on, but I'm not sure about. Something to think more on.

Using the SEAlang Web Corpus we can use the "Analyze" button to look at collocates (word neighbors) of หาก.

For one, it's clear that หาก doesn't have to be followed ว่า. From a sample of 1000 web pages, หากว่า accounts for under 1% of returned hits.

ถ้าหาก, on the other hand, is much more commonly followed by ว่า, with ถ้าหากว่า making up 16% of results.

There are few standout collocates for any of them, with nothing exceeding 10% except ถ้าหากว่า. Interesting to know that the most common words to follow ถ้า, หาก, and ถ้าหาก are roughly the same:

Following ถ้า: คุณ, มี, จะ, ท่าน, เรา, เป็น, ใคร, ไม่, ต้องการ

Following หาก: ท่าน, คุณ, มี, ต้องการ, เรา, จะ, เป็น, ใคร

Following ถ้าหาก: ว่า, คุณ, มี, เรา, ท่าน, จะ, ไม่, ใคร, ต้องการ

With the exception of ว่า, it's essentially the same list in slightly different order. This lends itself to the idea that it's a register difference, with หาก being more formal, which is also supported by the fact that ท่าน comes first on the list of หาก collocates, but fourth on the list of ถ้า collocates.

But they're not strictly interchangeable, of course, so I'll be interested to hear other thoughts, particularly from Yoot et al.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Rikker

[kriswillems]

Rikker, first of all thanks for showing me the way to the sealang webcorpus. This is really interesting. It will help to improve my writing skills.

Yes, I have noticed that หาก is almost never used in talking language.

1. Could it be related to the fact if we can control the condition?

IF condition THEN consequence

For instance:

if we eat a lot we get fat

We can control how much we eat.

so we would use ถ้า

Or:

if you you're taller than 1m60 you should buy size XL

You can't control how tall you are.

So here we would use หาก

I am really guessing here based on some examples.

2. Or should ถ้า be used when the consequence is a bad thing?

For instance in the first sentence I think we shouldn't use หาก

I have the impression ถ้า sounds a bit more accusing.

Most of the times these 2 words are interchangeable, but there seems to be a preferred word in certain cases.

Edited October 22, 2008 by kriswillems

[Luukhin]

Rikker is right. หาก is more formal than ถ้า. หาก and ถ้า are interchangeble if หาก and ถ้า are used to talk about something that may possibly happens or be true.

The use of หาก is similar to 'should' in English as in 'Should you need any help, you can always phone me at the office.' หากท่านต้องการความช่วยเหลือ ท่านสามารถติดต่ดผมทางโทรศัพท์ที่สำนักงาน

However, หาก can not be used when talking about something that might have happened as in 'They would have been here by now if they had caught the early train.' ถ้าเขาจับรถไฟเที่ยวแรก ก็คงมาถึงแล้ว but not X หากเขาจับรถไฟเที่ยวแรก ก็คงมาถึงแล้ว This sentence will sound more natural with ถ้าหากว่า

หาก is often found used in songs and poems to refer to situations that are untrue or imaginary as in 'If I were a bird, I would fly' หากฉันเป็นนก ฉันจะโผบิน

[DavidHouston]

The following is from "คลังคำ" by Ajarn Dr. Nawawan Phanthumetha, page 298:

"ถ้า, ถ้าเผื่อ, ถ้าแม้ว่า, ถ้าหาก, ถ้าหากว่า, หาก . . . ใช้หน้าประโยคแสดงเหตุการณ์ที่สมมุติขึ้นและเป็นเงื่อนไขให้บังเกิดผล เช่น เราคงสบายกว่านี้ ถ้าพ่อไม่ตาย"

"

1. . . . are used at the beginning of a sentence (or clause) to indicate situations which are assumed or are hypothesized to occur and (or) are conditions pursuant to the achievement of some result. For example, 'We would have been better off if our father had not passed away."

It might be, as has been suggested above, that the difference between the two words, "ถ้า" and "หาก", might be that the former refers to a "condition possible" while the latter refers to a "condition impossible". English, of course, uses the subjunctive mood for this purpose. (See Tevya in "Fiddle or the Roof", "If I were a rich man . . . .") Ajarn Nawawan gives no indication of this distinction, if my reading of the above quote is correct; notice that in her sample sentence, "ถ้า" is used for the condition impossible.

Great question, Kris.

[Luukhin]

Now I am confused. Just ignore my post then.

[DavidHouston]

Now I am confused. Just ignore my post then.

I am just offering an alternative viewpoint; Ajarn Nawawan could be incorrect in practice. If you are reflecting what you actually use and hear in the real world and in the here and now, then yours is the correct usage. Her book may not reflect current usage.

Thank you very much for your post, Khun Luukhin, and for the perspective it contains.

Edited October 22, 2008 by DavidHouston

[Luukhin]

I think that I am wrong. The examples that I gave seem to be interchangeable. I may have to look the two words up in a corpus to be sure. Khun Yoot might be able to shed some light.

[yoot]

Let's see the definitions from RID first :

ถ้า สัน. คําแสดงความคาดหมาย คาดคะเน หรือข้อแม้, ผิ, แม้, หาก.

ถ้าว่า, ถ้าหากว่า สัน. ผิว่า, แม้ว่า, หากว่า.

หาก ก. โบราณใช้เป็นกริยาช่วยหมายความว่า พึง, ควร, เช่น ''อันไตรโลกย์

หากบูชา'' = อันไตรโลกย์พึงบูชา. ว. จาก, แยกออกไปอีกส่วนหนึ่ง, เช่น

ออกหาก ต่างหาก. สัน. ถ้า, แม้, เช่น หากเธอมาฉันก็จะรอ; เผอิญ เช่น

หากอักนิฏฐ์พรหมฉ้วย พี่ไว้จึงคง. (ตำนานเรื่องศรีปราชญ์), หากเดช

พระจอมจุมพลป้องบไภยันต์. (บุณโณวาท).

If both are used as conjunctions, they means the same. Both can be used interchangeably. But หาก is more formal than ถ้า as Khun Luukhin has pointed out. Other than that, there is nothing different between these two words. If you are not sure

If you look at English grammar books which are written in Thai language, for every if-cause conditions, they only use the word ถ้า in explanation. So, no matter the "condition possible" or "condition impossible", ถ้า and หาก can be used in the same context.

The following is from "คลังคำ" by Ajarn Dr. Nawawan Phanthumetha, page 298:

"ถ้า, ถ้าเผื่อ, ถ้าแม้ว่า, ถ้าหาก, ถ้าหากว่า, หาก . . . ใช้หน้าประโยคแสดงเหตุการณ์ที่สมมุติขึ้นและเป็นเงื่อนไขให้บังเกิดผล เช่น เราคงสบายกว่านี้ ถ้าพ่อไม่ตาย"

As for this set of words, they mean the same and can be used interchangeably in most case. You can use any of them on the example given by Ajarn Nawawan.

For example;

เราคงสบายกว่านี้ ถ้าพ่อไม่ตาย

เราคงสบายกว่านี้ ถ้าเผื่อพ่อไม่ตาย

เราคงสบายกว่านี้ ถ้าแม้ว่าพ่อไม่ตาย

เราคงสบายกว่านี้ ถ้าหากพ่อไม่ตาย

เราคงสบายกว่านี้ ถ้าหากว่าพ่อไม่ตาย

เราคงสบายกว่านี้ หากพ่อไม่ตาย

For the example given by Khun Luukhin:

ถ้าเขาจับรถไฟเที่ยวแรก ก็คงมาถึงแล้ว

ถ้าหากเขาจับรถไฟเที่ยวแรก ก็คงมาถึงแล้ว

ถ้าหากว่าเขาจับรถไฟเที่ยวแรก ก็คงมาถึงแล้ว

หากเขาจับรถไฟเที่ยวแรก ก็คงมาถึงแล้ว

หากว่าเขาจับรถไฟเที่ยวแรก ก็คงมาถึงแล้ว

All are the same, nothing different.

Another example given by Khun Luukhin:

หากท่านต้องการความช่วยเหลือ ท่านสามารถติดต่ดผมทางโทรศัพท์ที่สำนักงาน

ถ้าหากท่านต้องการความช่วยเหลือ ท่านสามารถติดต่ดผมทางโทรศัพท์ที่สำนักงาน

ถ้าหากว่าท่านต้องการความช่วยเหลือ ท่านสามารถติดต่ดผมทางโทรศัพท์ที่สำนักงาน

ถ้าท่านต้องการความช่วยเหลือ ท่านสามารถติดต่ดผมทางโทรศัพท์ที่สำนักงาน

หากว่าท่านต้องการความช่วยเหลือ ท่านสามารถติดต่ดผมทางโทรศัพท์ที่สำนักงาน

Again, all are the same, nothing different.

If you are not sure which word should be used, the word 'ถ้า' would be fine for every cases and for both written and spoken form.

Edited October 22, 2008 by yoot

[kriswillems]

Thanks to all. Besides the fact that หาก is more official than ถ้า there seems to be little difference between those 2 words.

[merck]

... หาก and ถ้า are interchangeble if หาก and ถ้า are used to talk about something that may possibly happens or be true. ...

I take it you're not a native English speaker. That should be 'happen' not 'happens'.

Any more questions let me know.

[aanon]

หาก is also used in another role, I believe, meaning something similar to "but rather". I'll have to keep my eyes open for a clear example.

[DavidHouston]

หาก is also used in another role, I believe, meaning something similar to "but rather". I'll have to keep my eyes open for a clear example.

คุณอาืนนครับ,

How about this for an example:

อาจเป็นเพราะ นายอภิสิทธิ์ เวชชาชีวะ ไม่ได้วางน้ำหนักการตอบโต้อยู่ที่รัฐบาล หากแต่วางน้ำหนักการตอบโต้อยู่ที่พรรค

This may be because Mr. Abhisit Vejjajiva does not put much emphasis on confrontation within the government but rather places more emphasis on response and debate within the party.

[aanon]

หาก is also used in another role, I believe, meaning something similar to "but rather". I'll have to keep my eyes open for a clear example.

คุณอาืนนครับ,

How about this for an example:

อาจเป็นเพราะ นายอภิสิทธิ์ เวชชาชีวะ ไม่ได้วางน้ำหนักการตอบโต้อยู่ที่รัฐบาล หากแต่วางน้ำหนักการตอบโต้อยู่ที่พรรค

This may be because Mr. Abhisit Vejjajiva does not put much emphasis on confrontation within the government but rather places more emphasis on response and debate within the party.

thanks david,

that's the kind of usage i had in mind. if i'm recalling correctly, i have occasionally seen หาก, rather than หากแต่, used in this way.

ขอบคุณที่อุตส่าห์ยกตัวอย่างให้นะครับ

อานนท์

[meadish_sweetball]

Thanks for bringing up หากแต่ - it's a new one for me.

It also made me associate to ต่างหาก, which is of course placed in a different part of the sentence (at the end of it, excluding any final particles) and seems to carry the sense of 'contrary to what you just stated'.

[aanon]

ok, i've come across an example of หาก being used alone in the sense I mentioned. it's from a Matichon article called 'ไม่ชอบเรียนเลขแต่บ้าตัวเลข':

คนเหล่านี้ไม่ได้ต้องการเพียงตัวเลข หากต้องการการวิเคราะห์และการตีความเพื่ออาจนำไปสู่ไอเดียต่างๆ ในการดำรงชีวิตและธุรกิจ

These people want not only numbers but also analysis and interpretation, in the hope that [such analysis and interpretation] might lead to [new] ideas for life and business.

notice that here the meaning is "but also", where in other cases it might be "but rather". whatever the particulars, the idea is that หาก connects contrasting ideas.

aanon

ps. if you're keen, you can read the whole article here: laic.dpu.ac.th/images/matichon_weekly/article/2552/29_1490.pdf

[Rikker]

aanon, I happened across another one and thought of this thread:

ทุกครั้งที่สินค้าของเราชำรุด เราจะไม่ส่งคนไปซ่อมที่บ้านหรอก หากเราจะให้ช่างถอดออกมาแล้วส่งเข้าบริษัท

"Whenever one of our products is defective, we don't have a repairman go fix it at their house. Rather, we have him dismantle it and send it back to the company."

From the novella ปริศนา กับความรัก by 10เดซิเบล. The context is that the protagonist works for a company that sells water heaters (เครื่องทำน้ำอุ่น), like you find in showers. He is talking about the company's customer service policies, and that it's easier to replace the heater and junk the defective one, rather than waste time/money fixing it. (Wish more real life companies had this policy! )

And a bit further down the same page:

ใครจะเชื่อ หากแต่สิ่งที่ผมกล่าวมาไม่ได้โป้ปดมดเท็จแต่อย่างใดเลย

"Who would've thought! But what I've told you isn't a fabrication in the slightest!"

(in reference to the notion that it's more economical to simply replace defective water heaters than fix them)

In this case, หากแต่ seems to be used similar to แต่ on its own.

[yoot]

From Dr. Wit's dictionary;

หากแต่ - but, only.

I'd say the correct word for the examples above should be "หากแต่". Although it's understandable, it's incorrect, especially this example : ทุกครั้งที่สินค้าของเราชำรุด เราจะไม่ส่งคนไปซ่อมที่บ้านหรอก หากเราจะให้ช่างถอดออกมาแล้วส่งเข้าบริษัท

[Richard W]

Do both ถ้า and หาก overlap with English 'when' with future reference?

[desi]

ps: anyone know the Mac keyboard shortcut for changing languages?

Command / spacebar...

[aanon]

Do both ถ้า and หาก overlap with English 'when' with future reference?

I see both used for future tense, often in conjunction with เมื่อไหร่

Google examples: หากเหงาเมื่อไหร่ มีฉันอยู่ตรงนี้; ถ้าเสื้อหลุดเมื่อไหร่ อาจถึงตายได้ (I don't even want to know)

I suppose we'd use "if ever" but "when" might also be appropriate depending on the context. Is this the kind of use you had in mind?

[Richard W]

Do both ถ้า and หาก overlap with English 'when' with future reference?

I see both used for future tense, often in conjunction with เมื่อไหร่

Google examples: หากเหงาเมื่อไหร่ มีฉันอยู่ตรงนี้; ถ้าเสื้อหลุดเมื่อไหร่ อาจถึงตายได้ (I don't even want to know)

I suppose we'd use "if ever" but "when" might also be appropriate depending on the context. Is this the kind of use you had in mind?

I think not. I more familiar with its interference effect in English - 'If you come home, eat this,' which immediately urges me to respond, 'But of course I'll come home.'

[aanon]

Do both ถ้า and หาก overlap with English 'when' with future reference?

I see both used for future tense, often in conjunction with เมื่อไหร่

Google examples: หากเหงาเมื่อไหร่ มีฉันอยู่ตรงนี้; ถ้าเสื้อหลุดเมื่อไหร่ อาจถึงตายได้ (I don't even want to know)

I suppose we'd use "if ever" but "when" might also be appropriate depending on the context. Is this the kind of use you had in mind?

I think not. I more familiar with its interference effect in English - 'If you come home, eat this,' which immediately urges me to respond, 'But of course I'll come home.'

Ok, I understand now. I think that ถ้า is used in this way sometimes colloquially but can't recall hearing หาก being used the same way.

eg.

ถ้าตื่นก็ช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย

When you wake up, can you bring in the clothes drying rack please?

Context would let us know that this was the intended meaning, rather than "If you wake up before I get back..." or something else. Also, as in English, there are of course more precise ways of saying the same thing.

aanon

Edited August 24, 2009 by aanon

[tgeezer]

Do both ถ้า and หาก overlap with English 'when' with future reference?

I see both used for future tense, often in conjunction with เมื่อไหร่

Google examples: หากเหงาเมื่อไหร่ มีฉันอยู่ตรงนี้; ถ้าเสื้อหลุดเมื่อไหร่ อาจถึงตายได้ (I don't even want to know)

I suppose we'd use "if ever" but "when" might also be appropriate depending on the context. Is this the kind of use you had in mind?

I think not. I more familiar with its interference effect in English - 'If you come home, eat this,' which immediately urges me to respond, 'But of course I'll come home.'

Ok, I understand now. I think that ถ้า is used in this way sometimes colloquially but can't recall hearing หาก being used the same way.

eg.

ถ้าตื่นก็ช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย

When you wake up, can you bring in the clothes drying rack please?

Context would let us know that this was the intended meaning, rather than "If you wake up before I get back..." or something else. Also, as in English, there are of course more precise ways of saying the same thing.

aanon

[tgeezer]

We haven't had any input from yoot for some time, could it be that since he pointed out months ago that the two words were the same, we continued to desperately try to make The Thai fit some meaning which we might express in English. It may be that this has to be done to 'translate' into English, but have we lost yoot?

I thought that the two last English posts were attempts at sarcasm using irony 'if you wake, if you return', only to find that in the former is part of a statement 'if you wake before I get home'

Is it possible that some meanings which we ascribe to Thai are not there? This is the impression I get now, especially when the English doesn't make sense to me.

หากเหงาเมื่อไหร่ เมื่อไร has meanings in T-L.com which don't exist in the RID where it is explained as a word asking a question about เวลา . We understand it as a pronoun but, would a Thai who knows no English get it? To me that is the important question, I think that he probably would, but is it grammatical gymnastics and is it necessary to use เมื่อไร ?

When there are, as Anon says better ways of saying it in Thai, should we not be trying to find those Thai ways rather than changeing the Thai?

In other words, have TVs languages merged past the point where we can communicate with Thais who don't study language yet have a good education?

[yoot]

One thing we have to admit, that is one Thai sentence can be interpreted differently depending on context or situation.

Let's take aanon's example to discuss on this matter, ถ้าตื่นก็ช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย.

ถ้าตื่นก็ช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย can be "If you wake (before I get home), please bring in the clothes drying rack."

Or, "Whenever you wake up, please bring in the clothes drying rack". Or, it can be sarcastic, in case the speaker feels that the listener always spend time in sleeping and doesn't care to do any work.

หาก...เมื่อไร (เมื่อไหร่, เมื่อใด) or ถ้า...เมื่อไร should be translated to 'whenever'

เมื่อไร has meanings in T-L.com which don't exist in the RID where it is explained as a word asking a question about เวลา . We understand it as a pronoun but, would a Thai who knows no English get it? To me that is the important question, I think that he probably would, but is it grammatical gymnastics and is it necessary to use เมื่อไร ?

When เมื่อไร, เมื่อไหร่ or เมื่อใด is used in question sentence, it's a question word (ปฤจฉาสรรพนาม) to ask about 'time', but in common sentence, they are used as a conjuction or adverb(กาลวิเศษณ์).

Context would let us know that this was the intended meaning, rather than "If you wake up before I get back..." or something else. Also, as in English, there are of course more precise ways of saying the same thing.

Agreed. This makes it difficult to explain which words should be used in which situation as well. Some words can be used interchageably but not in every case, exception is always the word which frustrates every learners.

[tgeezer]

One thing we have to admit, that is one Thai sentence can be interpreted differently depending on context or situation.

Let's take aanon's example to discuss on this matter, ถ้าตื่นก็ช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย.

ถ้าตื่นก็ช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย can be "If you wake (before I get home), please bring in the clothes drying rack."

Or, "Whenever you wake up, please bring in the clothes drying rack". Or, it can be sarcastic, in case the speaker feels that the listener always spend time in sleeping and doesn't care to do any work.

หาก...เมื่อไร (เมื่อไหร่, เมื่อใด) or ถ้า...เมื่อไร should be translated to 'whenever'

เมื่อไร has meanings in T-L.com which don't exist in the RID where it is explained as a word asking a question about เวลา . We understand it as a pronoun but, would a Thai who knows no English get it? To me that is the important question, I think that he probably would, but is it grammatical gymnastics and is it necessary to use เมื่อไร ?

When เมื่อไร, เมื่อไหร่ or เมื่อใด is used in question sentence, it's a question word (ปฤจฉาสรรพนาม) to ask about 'time', but in common sentence, they are used as a conjuction or adverb(กาลวิเศษณ์).

Context would let us know that this was the intended meaning, rather than "If you wake up before I get back..." or something else. Also, as in English, there are of course more precise ways of saying the same thing.

Agreed. This makes it difficult to explain which words should be used in which situation as well. Some words can be used interchageably but not in every case, exception is always the word which frustrates every learners.

Thanks for replying to that yoot, I feared that since the forum is well set, my comment might be considered impertinant.

Translation has to preceed knowledge I know, but feel that it is preferable that if it is possible to understand something in Thai without reference to stylised English expressions then that is the best way to do it.

Staying on the theme:ถ้าตื่น what it says is what matters 'if wake' the context we are often not given, so giving only one option and then discussing all the other possible options is worse than giving none, so no discussion necessary. It refers to anything which sleeps. The circumstance which causes it to be said can only be a guessed at, so it means only one thing 'if wake'; nothing like English and better for it, I say.

As to the reluctance of the RID to ascribe a type to the word เมื่อไร could it be that they prefer it to be used as only a question word. Other ปฤจฉาสรรพนาม ใคร for instance gets a ส. (please don't be offended I am not asking you to answer on behalf of the Royal academy)It is two words noun and modifier with a new meaning: when? คำประสม คำนาม+คำวิเศษณ์ ที่เกิดความหมายใหม่ ถามว่า ตอนไหน ซึ่งตอบได้ว่า ตอนเช้า ตอนบ่าย วันศุกร์ เดือนหน้า ฯลฯ does this make sense?

The example in RID is เมื่อไรเขาจะมา when will he come?, but I seem to remember somewhere it being used as a conjunction; เมื่อไรเขาจะมาผมก็จะไป; When? will he come, then I shall go out. or perhaps; When he will come then I shall go out. The more it is said the less it matters whether we have ? or not. Maybe I dont know enough English and this is the same in English and I just cant see it. So, I say; we could leave it at that.

If it were in a court of law should it perhaps be เมื่อไดเมื่อหนึงที่เขาจะมา หรือ คราวไหน

Does this make any sense? please be gentle with me.

[aanon]

Tgeezer,

If I may summarise:

Richard W: Sometimes in English people say 'if' when they really mean 'when'. Does this happen in Thai with ถ้า/หาก too?

Me: In certain cases, yes. At least for ถ้า.

I don't understand where you're coming from in the comments after that. If you're not interested in Richard's question, just ignore it. If you want more context, just ask.

Edited August 25, 2009 by aanon