A " No Comment " Observation

[marshbags]

TELL IT AS IT IS

It's time to take a good look at ourselves and feel the shame

By Pornpimol Kanchanalak

The Nation, Published on October 23, 2008

Quote

CALL me "elite," call me "royalist," call me "neanderthal," call me "old hat," call me any name, I don't really mind. It doesn't matter. As the country continues to spiral down the slippery slope, labelling is no longer a pastime; it is a serious business. There is no middle ground left. As the warring factions ready themselves for the deciding battle, very few seem to have consideration for what we once called "the soul of the nation", which has long been the pillar of our stability. We as a nation have lost our perspective and our bearing. Gone is a sane and balanced sense of identity, core values and unity. What is left is a shattered spirit that is devoid of a moral compass and direction. It is hard these days to tell truth from lies; harder to find a conscience to care.

Bewildered by myopia, we have forgotten and abandoned the very person who embodies the virtues that have made our nation unique: His Majesty. Many proclaim their unconditional love for and loyalty to him, but if unmatched by deeds, these are just empty words. Some are doing hideous and damaging things to the country by expeditiously invoking his good name, exploiting it to the hilt for gains that have nothing to do with him or the greater good of the country to which he has devoted his life. Many have become more open and fearless about denigrating him as the root of all the ills of our society and politics. They are the Ku Klux Klan of Thai society. They are losers, embittered by their own insecurities and failure, angered by their own low self-image and esteem, and driven by the desperate need to blame someone else for their own imperfections and problems, because they are too afraid to admit them.

It saddens me to see such exploitation. It incenses me to hear the shameless unfounded accusations. It enrages me to read false entries about His Majesty on websites - which are the handiwork of those who claim to be intellectuals; some Thai, some foreign - that repeat conspiracy theories about royal interference that has made our politics and democracy as dysfunctional as it is today.

It is always sexy for these "wise men" to be contrarian, to say something provocative for the sake of being so, to be "radical' even though there is no trace of this in their lifestyle. They like to hide their true colours under the self-glorified cloak of "righteousness". They have never proved their assumptions or theories, and have no real compunction to do so. It is too much work, and they are afraid they may find out they are wrong. To these people, I ask them to recount any concrete and worthy contributions they have made to Thai society other than to make waves. To them, I want to say, if they are so unhappy with the makeup of Thai society and politics, they can just leave.

Now, people are calling for and waiting for His Majesty's intervention. The Economist magazine contends it is only him that can put a stop to the unending and ever-expanding rifts in Thai society. These selfish and irresponsible demands are exactly the reason we are where we are today. If we are not willing to lift our fingers and put our heads together to clean up the mess we created ourselves, there will be no silver lining. And we deserve to be condemned to live our nightmare in perpetuity.

Throughout his reign, His Majesty has lived a life that should set an example for us all. Unfortunately, it seems we have failed to learn from that example. His Majesty has kept the pledge he made to the nation in his first remarks on the throne; it is us who have failed to keep our end of the bargain.

As a constitutional monarch, His Majesty has no real political and legal recourse to change the path of the country. His power, however, is derived from the hard work he has done for the people. He could have led an easy life (in fact that's what the government at that time told him to do), but he did not. He does not have to care about his people, or devote his time and energy thinking, planning, initiating project after project to bring sustainable development for the country. He does not have to live a life that exemplifies what he preaches: self-reliance, dignity, decency, honesty, integrity and magnanimity. But he has chosen to do all those things. He never calls himself righteous, despite the fact that his is a life based on that very principle. He even tries to make us realise that making mistakes is part of being human.

It is not true that the King can do no wrong, he told us one December during his address to the nation. The key, he has taught us, is that we must learn from our mistakes, correct them and move on. He shows us time and again the sanctity of our lives, no matter who we are. He appealed to our conscience by reminding the powers-that- be (at the height of the extra-judicial killing spree by the then government) that if only one innocent life was lost, it was one life too many.

He has trodden this land far and wide, gone the extra mile to be with the poorest of the poor, the forgotten. He has tried to offer them a better life by giving them the tools and skills to get there - not by giving them freebies that create a tin-cup syndrome and other moral hazards. He has done all this with one motive: the love for his people and his country. And the people love him in return. But that is all that we do. We do not learn from him. We do not try to be a better people as a way of showing our appreciation, and to honour his work and his legacy.

So if we want to end this senseless fighting and self-destruction, we should start thinking about the pain His Majesty must feel seeing us slug it out like thugs. We must take a good look at ourselves and see what we have become and feel the shame. We must realise that we owe it to His Majesty as well as to ourselves and our children to put an end to disagreements peacefully - for there is no such thing as the last war. As Ronald Reagan liked to say: "Let's win one for the Gipper." If anything, let's do this one for His Majesty. He deserves the best from all of us, because he has given us the best of himself.

Unquote

Respectfully

marshbags

[HS Mauberley]

Unfortunately, however much one might want to 'tell it as it is', Thai laws and this website's policy make it impossible to do so.

[PhilHarries]

Some bitter home truths there for all to take to heart.

[marshbags]

Unfortunately, however much one might want to 'tell it as it is', Thai laws and this website's policy make it impossible to do so.

Hence the " respectfull " No comment Observation " and indeed their should not have to be, just an inward self examination.

marshbags

Edited October 23, 2008 by marshbags

[davejonesbkk]

I'd like to know if articles as honest as this ever get printed in the Thai language newspapers.

Btw, does anyone have a link to that article in the Economist saying the King should step ion that the author mentioned?

[PeaceBlondie]

Half the posts have been deleted, and this topic is full of subjects which cannot, will not, be discussed here.

[HS Mauberley]

I appreciate that the law being what it is you feel duty bound to delete posts but what I'm curious about is the justification for allowing the presentation of only one side of an argument. If it's not OK to point out the flaws in the OP - and by any standards, there are flaws to be argued about - what justification can there be for allowing the OP to stand? And to avoid any confusion, this is not a debate about royalty but about balance (and could apply to any one of a number of topics).

[Tod Daniels]

You can feel the shame yourself. ..

Given the posts title, and taking into consideration the rules and/or regulations governing posts on this forum, my official comment is;

NO COMMENT

[canuckamuck]

Unfortunately, however much one might want to 'tell it as it is', Thai laws and this website's policy make it impossible to do so.

Hence the " respectfull " No comment Observation " and indeed their should not have to be, just an inward self examination.

marshbags

The paradox of having an OP that you can either agree with or must refrain from commenting on is symbolic of the problem in the streets of Bangkok. If transparency was an ideal in Thai leadership, the people might refrain from allowing the worst kind of corrupt men and women to return to places of power again and again. Both sides of the recent dispute are chasing lies and using false morality to back up their indignation. Tradition can be a prison when you can't investigate or question the whole picture.

Thailand needs to look to the future, not linger in the past.

[PhilHarries]

Thailand needs to look to the future, not linger in the past.

Nobody should linger in the past but sometimes it is better to go back to square one and start over again and then sometimes it is better, having started, to see the job through whilst keeping an open mind when viewing the options along the way.

In all this the goal (the future), that of a united strong nation, is clear the only question being the method(s) to attain that goal. Both sides in the arguement need to stand back and ask themselves "what am I personally prepared to do to achieve the goal putting aside my own self interests?" The big problem is that the opposing side's views have become so polarised that they are losing sight of what they are trying to achieve. The other problem is that many people on both sides are being manipulated by those who are not prepared to put aside their own self interests.

[BSJ]

One can only watch the march of history, knowing the outcome of many thing has yet to be determined. Whether that outcome be by fair means or foul the situation will be the same for most people. We get up in the morning travel to work, do our toil, return home and relax or play for a little while before we retire to or beds only to repeat the process over and over. It is for someone else the task of being a hero, or a martyr, or a regent, or a pauper. For them there are stories of pleasure or pain, of victory or of defeat. Our involvement is no more than watching it unfold, develop and eventually disappear on the television news. And one day it may come to pass that we can discuss it with other adults, in a civilised manner, but fellow members that won't be anytime soon...................will it?

[jbowman1993]

Quality opinion, and very relevant. Each country, just like each individual, is on their own unique path. Just as you can counsel a teenager, you would be hard pressed to change the behavior unless that individual wanted to change. Usually, through growth and experience, people "grow out of" impulsive, impetuous stages. I would like to believe that countries can as well. Long term views are needed, and people with good intentions wouldn't hurt either.

[wamberal]

I have huge respect for His Majesty, as do the vast majority of the Thai people.

A good monarch has power because the people give it to him, or her, out of respect.

Edited October 24, 2008 by wamberal

[haltes]

The point is I am sure that not everyone agrees with the orginal no comment observation and many of the points outlined could be picked apart without much effort. The danger IMHO is that of stifling debate and only hearing one side of the story without having the full facts and without taking into account conflicting opinions. Personally I find that if the issue has merit, examination of it with all contrary opinions actually makes the original issue stronger, not weaker.

[marshbags]

The point is I am sure that not everyone agrees with the orginal no comment observation and many of the points outlined could be picked apart without much effort. The danger IMHO is that of stifling debate and only hearing one side of the story without having the full facts and without taking into account conflicting opinions. Personally I find that if the issue has merit, examination of it with all contrary opinions actually makes the original issue stronger, not weaker.

The No Comment is not only in reference to Thai Visa guidelines on the subject of discussing the Thai Royal Family, this is applicable to all Thai Media and should be respected at all times in this country.

You can, should you wish to do so, debate and comment on all other points of the O.P.

If you live here or are familiar with Thai culture then it,s respectful not to do so and indeed is readily accepted, freely and willingly.

Should you live in another country then please accept that every one has it,s own laws and they should also be respected by foreigners from elsewhere.

This for me is a very good article and as such i wanted to post it for others to read, without the sensitive areas being discussed and the consequent closing of the thread.

What the OP does is give an important viewpoint that is positive and if you wish to debate the areas of it that do not disrespect the discussing of the much loved and Revered Monarchy, you are more than welcome to do so.

By doing this you will be showing respect to all Thailands citizens and an important part of it,s culture, as we on Thai Visa willingly do so and agree with.

Otherwise PLEASE " No Further Comment " would be appreciated.

marshbags

P.S.

Please also remember it is the writers opinion on the political unrest and i might add, i find it not an unreasonable one,

IMHO as always, and if you are posting on our forum please repect our forum rules.

PPS

Mods please edit if my comments are considered inappropriate and if you think it wise, close the thread.

Respectfully

MB

Edited October 24, 2008 by marshbags

[HS Mauberley]

^ Either you're being stupid or you're being deliberately disingenuous. The whole point about the OP is to praise the King's moral authority. If, as some people think, this is a proposition which ought to be investigated, then the OP ought to be investigated (whether or not it is framed with asinine 'No Comment' riders or your absurd, nonsensical claims that "if you wish to debate the areas of it that do not disrespect the discussing of the much loved and Revered Monarchy, you are more than welcome to do so."). However, given the policy of this website - a policy of which you are clearly aware - we either have to accept the OP or to look the other way; thus your assertions go unchallenged, not because they are correct but because the law says that they are correct.

if you think it wise, close the thread.

An excellent idea. Close and delete. And close and delete any future such threads. A forum (any forum) is a place for debate and without both sides of an argument there can be no debate.

Otherwise PLEASE " No Further Comment " would be appreciated.

It's an open-access forum so I'm afraid that it's not up to you to decide who comments on which threads; you may have manipulated the law to your advantage but that's the extent of your influence.

[elkangorito]

An excellent idea. Close and delete. And close and delete any future such threads. A forum (any forum) is a place for debate and without both sides of an argument there can be no debate.

I fully agree. It looks like Thailand will just have to do without any form of democratic discussion about this sort of thing. Ho hum

Also, I think that the article by Pornpimol Kanchanalak is a bad thing for Thailand. This person promotes backward thinking & segregation, either which are not conducive to a friendly environment or friendly international relations.

People who think like this cause much more trouble than they wish to solve.

Marshbags, you may like to re-think your stance about this article.

Edited October 24, 2008 by elkangorito

[sriracha john]

TELL IT AS IT IS

It's time to take a good look at ourselves and feel the shame

By Pornpimol Kanchanalak

The Nation, Published on October 23, 2008

Quote

CALL me "elite," call me "royalist," call me "neanderthal," call me "old hat," call me any name, I don't really mind. It doesn't matter. As the country continues to spiral down the slippery slope, labelling is no longer a pastime; it is a serious business. There is no middle ground left. As the warring factions ready themselves for the deciding battle, very few seem to have consideration for what we once called "the soul of the nation", which has long been the pillar of our stability. We as a nation have lost our perspective and our bearing. Gone is a sane and balanced sense of identity, core values and unity. What is left is a shattered spirit that is devoid of a moral compass and direction. It is hard these days to tell truth from lies; harder to find a conscience to care.

Bewildered by myopia, we have forgotten and abandoned the very person who embodies the virtues that have made our nation unique: His Majesty. Many proclaim their unconditional love for and loyalty to him, but if unmatched by deeds, these are just empty words. Some are doing hideous and damaging things to the country by expeditiously invoking his good name, exploiting it to the hilt for gains that have nothing to do with him or the greater good of the country to which he has devoted his life. Many have become more open and fearless about denigrating him as the root of all the ills of our society and politics. They are the Ku Klux Klan of Thai society. They are losers, embittered by their own insecurities and failure, angered by their own low self-image and esteem, and driven by the desperate need to blame someone else for their own imperfections and problems, because they are too afraid to admit them.

It saddens me to see such exploitation. It incenses me to hear the shameless unfounded accusations. It enrages me to read false entries about His Majesty on websites - which are the handiwork of those who claim to be intellectuals; some Thai, some foreign - that repeat conspiracy theories about royal interference that has made our politics and democracy as dysfunctional as it is today.

It is always sexy for these "wise men" to be contrarian, to say something provocative for the sake of being so, to be "radical' even though there is no trace of this in their lifestyle. They like to hide their true colours under the self-glorified cloak of "righteousness". They have never proved their assumptions or theories, and have no real compunction to do so. It is too much work, and they are afraid they may find out they are wrong. To these people, I ask them to recount any concrete and worthy contributions they have made to Thai society other than to make waves. To them, I want to say, if they are so unhappy with the makeup of Thai society and politics, they can just leave.

Now, people are calling for and waiting for His Majesty's intervention. The Economist magazine contends it is only him that can put a stop to the unending and ever-expanding rifts in Thai society. These selfish and irresponsible demands are exactly the reason we are where we are today. If we are not willing to lift our fingers and put our heads together to clean up the mess we created ourselves, there will be no silver lining. And we deserve to be condemned to live our nightmare in perpetuity.

Throughout his reign, His Majesty has lived a life that should set an example for us all. Unfortunately, it seems we have failed to learn from that example. His Majesty has kept the pledge he made to the nation in his first remarks on the throne; it is us who have failed to keep our end of the bargain.

As a constitutional monarch, His Majesty has no real political and legal recourse to change the path of the country. His power, however, is derived from the hard work he has done for the people. He could have led an easy life (in fact that's what the government at that time told him to do), but he did not. He does not have to care about his people, or devote his time and energy thinking, planning, initiating project after project to bring sustainable development for the country. He does not have to live a life that exemplifies what he preaches: self-reliance, dignity, decency, honesty, integrity and magnanimity. But he has chosen to do all those things. He never calls himself righteous, despite the fact that his is a life based on that very principle. He even tries to make us realise that making mistakes is part of being human.

It is not true that the King can do no wrong, he told us one December during his address to the nation. The key, he has taught us, is that we must learn from our mistakes, correct them and move on. He shows us time and again the sanctity of our lives, no matter who we are. He appealed to our conscience by reminding the powers-that- be (at the height of the extra-judicial killing spree by the then government) that if only one innocent life was lost, it was one life too many.

He has trodden this land far and wide, gone the extra mile to be with the poorest of the poor, the forgotten. He has tried to offer them a better life by giving them the tools and skills to get there - not by giving them freebies that create a tin-cup syndrome and other moral hazards. He has done all this with one motive: the love for his people and his country. And the people love him in return. But that is all that we do. We do not learn from him. We do not try to be a better people as a way of showing our appreciation, and to honour his work and his legacy.

So if we want to end this senseless fighting and self-destruction, we should start thinking about the pain His Majesty must feel seeing us slug it out like thugs. We must take a good look at ourselves and see what we have become and feel the shame. We must realise that we owe it to His Majesty as well as to ourselves and our children to put an end to disagreements peacefully - for there is no such thing as the last war. As Ronald Reagan liked to say: "Let's win one for the Gipper." If anything, let's do this one for His Majesty. He deserves the best from all of us, because he has given us the best of himself.

Unquote

Respectfully

marshbags

Thank you for posting this, marshbags... a very thoughtful piece...

Long Live The King....

[spiderman2]

Thank you for posting this, marshbags... a very thoughtful piece...

Long Live The King....

As youve gone for that choice i'll go for the one of no comment.

This freedom of expression is like living having a rainbow thats black in a world thats only ever grey.

[marshbags]

An excellent idea. Close and delete. And close and delete any future such threads. A forum (any forum) is a place for debate and without both sides of an argument there can be no debate.

I fully agree. It looks like Thailand will just have to do without any form of democratic discussion about this sort of thing. Ho hum

Also, I think that the article by Pornpimol Kanchanalak is a bad thing for Thailand. This person promotes backward thinking & segregation, either which are not conducive to a friendly environment or friendly international relations.

People who think like this cause much more trouble than they wish to solve.

Marshbags, you may like to re-think your stance about this article.

Also...............

Mauberley Posted Yesterday, 2008-10-24 20:26:21

Either you're being stupid or you're being deliberately disingenuous. The whole point about the OP is to praise the King's moral authority.

Far from being disingenuos, i am delicately trying to put it across all that behind all the heartache, it refers to the infighting and all that is and has been gradually unfolding for a long period of time now.

I am not stupid either as IMHO those who are questioning the no comment issue are craftily trying to mischief make and are trying to dig up controversy.

If i am wrongly in assuming this and their motives are genuine and innocent then i openly apologise.

If so, anyone can PM the mods or admin to ask for and receive respectful, informative replies in relation to sensitivity.

It still remains disrespectful to comment and therefore again i would hope that anyone who reads the OP, show respect or as the history of T.Visa shows, all sorts of derogatory comments will start being posted.

If this is going to happen then surely the only option is to close the thread and as i started it in the first place i purposely and respectfully mentioned this in my last post.

As a member it would be pretensious and arrogant of me to adopt the role of MOD or more importantly an Administrator of Thai Visa.

I therefore post out of consideration, relating to the difficulties such posts can bring, if sadly members and guests question on an open forum this very sensitive issue then closure must take place.

It is also very important to be able to post such a marvelous article so that it can be read by those of us who can appreciate and empathise with it.

The summing up, if i may be allowed to requote can be very prolific and positive if it is taken onboard and is the way forward for all of us who live here.

My personal take anyway.

Quote

So if we want to end this senseless fighting and self-destruction, we should start thinking about the pain His Majesty must feel seeing us slug it out like thugs. We must take a good look at ourselves and see what we have become and feel the shame. We must realise that we owe it to His Majesty as well as to ourselves and our children to put an end to disagreements peacefully - for there is no such thing as the last war. As Ronald Reagan liked to say: "Let's win one for the Gipper." If anything, let's do this one for His Majesty. He deserves the best from all of us, because he has given us the best of himself.

Unquote

As for those who might just be mischief making, their are several ongoing threads in the Thailand News Clippings that can allow you debate the present scenario.

I might add that you will find responses more than equal to all you wish to highlight and debate, so be prepared for some healthy exchanges and differences of opinion, especially from the regular contributors.

Recommended therapy and certainly informative. then again :D

IMHO

marshbags

[marshbags]

Thank you for posting this, marshbags... a very thoughtful piece...

Long Live The King....

SJ always was and is great at summing up and can do so in a sentence

As youve gone for that choice i'll go for the one of no comment.

This freedom of expression is like living having a rainbow thats black in a world thats only ever grey.

Agreed and wisely put.

Treading / dancing on broken glass comes to mind for me, every time on wether to respond or not, especially when it can, as a consequence, be misinterpreted

marshbags

Edited October 25, 2008 by marshbags

[HS Mauberley]

^ Not disingenuous. Straightforward stupidity.

Where's the arse-licking smiley?

[Pierrot]

Sans liberté de blâmer, il n'est point d'éloge flateuse. Beaumarchais

(If censorship reigns, there cannot be sincere praise)

I would like also to add that I hate people who hide behind "higher" ideals only to serve their own, selfish agenda. Just remember that by standing next to a giant makes only obvious that you are only a midget.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Pierrot

[marshbags]

^ Not disingenuous. Straightforward stupidity.

Where's the arse-licking smiley?

Troll in the worst order, going on some of the stuff posted in your CV / history.

marshbags

[Scott]

I think one of the problems is that there is greater emphasis on 'the who' rather than the 'what' that people want in the country. People and societies change and these changes are never particularly easy. A transition can be difficult. I think the genie is out of the bottle and the pendulum will swing back and forth, but eventually things will change.

[OlRedEyes]

Whether I agree or disagree with the post is irrelevant. In fact I would not even bother to read it for the simple fact that I am not willing to say something positive if it cannot be argued. I would seriously argue that TV rules should be applied equally. If monarchy may not be discussed, it may not be discussed. So be it. From ALL sides.

[cmsally]

Some are doing hideous and damaging things to the country by expeditiously invoking his good name, exploiting it to the hilt for gains that have nothing to do with him or the greater good of the country to which he has devoted his life. Many have become more open and fearless about denigrating him as the root of all the ills of our society and politics.

These factors could be said to be a direct result of the lack of discussion and free speech. Lack of free speech often results in such polarisation.

This topic being a classic example as we have to work on inferences and deductions in order to try and fathom what others posters points of view actually are. Because of the lack of discussion we cannot actually know. With the appearance of a word or a possibility we immediately throw each other into one of two camps.

Not hard to breed extremism and polarisation is it.

[geriatrickid]

What I take away from the article is that if people want to argue politics, or get violent then they should not invoke the King's name. If people claim to follow the teachings of the King, then they should get out and do something along the lines of what the King has espoused. Plant a tree, volunteer with the disadvantaged, make the soi a better place, or even just be polite & civil to one another. If anything the writer is telling people to put up or shut up. Not such a bad position. It applies to parties on both side of the political divide.

[PeaceBlondie]

Closed. PM a moderator if you wish.