Promptness Is A Big 'mai Pen Rai' For Thais

[IMA_FARANG]

A year or so ago, I read about several Thai college students who were studying to be journalists. A major segment of the university course required them to interview politicians and businesspeople in Bangkok. Each student made several appointments.

Some interviewees were very late (more than an hour and a half) - whereas most didn't show at all. After repeated no-shows, the students got discouraged. All dropped out of the course.

Anyone with experience in Thailand can relate to being stood up: Indeed, people who are no-shows, often don't give any prior notice. Some slags to call within minutes of the meeting time - to say they can't make it - even though they've known for awhile that they won't make it. Also common; the other person won't call or answer the phone. More likely to happen with dates, but can happen with any slaggard.

Lessons to be learned if arranging to meeting a Thai person:

>>>>> Don't be prompt unless you don't mind hanging by yourself for awhile - possibly over 40 minutes, if the other shows at all.

>>>>> Meet at a comfortable place, like a coffee shop. If you meet at a place like a street corner, don't be surprised if you're stuck breathing smog and beset by loud traffic noise for as long as you can stick it out.

>>>> Call the other person before you set out for the meeting place. If no answer, it's a tough decision. Perhaps leave a text message and/or take a chance. Odds are about 50-50.

>>>> Set parameters for what you'll tolerate. Even if you're applying for a job, let the other person know how much tardiness you'll tolerate, and stick to it. In other words, if you arrange to meet at noon, the person calls at 12:08 and says, "sorry, I got sidelined, but I'll be there in five minutes." You can say, "OK, I'll wait until twenty past, but then, I'm off to do other things." And stick with it.

.....Some things become evident when you hear "just 5 minutes":

1. The other person didn't plan well enough 2. they don't give much value to meeting you

3. They don't give much value to your time. 4. It's never 5 minutes - but usually more like 10 to 45 minutes.

The Thai word for prompt is 'trong trong' (literally: straight straight) .....use it and stick with it.

It's a cultural thing....they just don't feel that promptness is that important. It isn't learned in their upbringing.

Just to illustrate, my Thai G/F was partially raised in a Farang family. Her mother was a maid for that family, if you need to know.

She has been taught the "virtue" of promptness by that family.

If we arrange to meet somewhere at a certain time, and she realises she's going to be late due to traffic. She will call me on the cellphone and tell me something like this: Big traffic jam on Sukhumvit road, I will be late. When I am in BKK she gives me one of her children's cellphones so she can contact me if she needs to.

My point: it's something she learned when she was young. She's 60 years now, but it was apparently locked in at that time.

Anyhow, by now she knows where I will be waiting. Either at the coffee shop, Audio/Video shop, or anything to do with computers. When she arrives, she finds me there.

P.S. She's taught her 3 children the same thing, but they are not as reliable in sticking to it.

Edited October 25, 2008 by IMA_FARANG

[473geo]

So somebody runs a bit late......slow down guys get a life.....it is inconvenient.....not the end of the world.......

Oh and if you require respect.......I doubt you'll get it continually critisising the people YOU chose to live among....

Well, it may start somewhere with 5 Minutes, ah well you waited that long, give it another 30 Min. it takes all but 45.. so lets take this further you go to a restaurant and order..... and you get a quarter of the serve and the beer is luke warm... take a taxi he insists to have double, triple the usual fare in advance because he doesn't trust you have the money.... and then gets you out half way... well... doesn't matter, don't criticize get used to it?

You board a plane 20 Minutes after the departure time you see the captain slightly drunk, jumping off a service car and about to enter the aircraft... mai pen rai?

It's sluggishness, disrespectful, there is no reason in the entire universe why this should be condoned in any way, nothing to do with wristwatches, nationality or race... there is no excuse, cause the other one has to agree to a certain meeting time, it's like a contract, an agreement it should be honored - if not I draw my conclusion about the worthiness of the association with the partner or the person the meeting is concerned about!

Simple as that!

Apologies for the tardy response.....

Oh he's gone......

Life goes on I guess....

[473geo]

So somebody runs a bit late......slow down guys get a life.....it is inconvenient.....not the end of the world.......

Oh and if you require respect.......I doubt you'll get it continually critisising the people YOU chose to live among....

possibly aimed at me, but do yourself a favour and actually read my post, at no point do i mention any particular race, nationality or group of people, it annoys me wherever i am in the world, i am very respectful when dealing with people, unless they choose to be late. my attitude mirrors the person i am dealing with, however nothing annoys me more than holier than thou attitudes and 'oh look at me, i have adjusted to everything' attitudes of some posters on here.

i dont think i have read a thread on here yet without someone constantly feeling the need to defend thais and berate people who have the nerve to give an opinion.

the biggest <deleted> on here is when people try and compare Thailand to somewhere else to try and justify thailand, i don't know if you noticed this is a thai forum where we discuss thailand, so what if the problems are the same as elsewhere, i couldnt give a shiny <deleted> if people drive bad in south america, i dont live there.

lets just accept that everything is not rosy here and accept its a thai forum where people can discuss issues relating to them or thailand.

The fact is, however many people on here want to counter it that more often than not a thai will be late, whether its a contractor or a friend, i even had the majority of thais coming for an interview late.

ok rant over

I'm confused...first you say you were not choosing to discuss Thai people in your original post......

Then you continue to say this is a forum to discuss Thailand.....

dam_n...I'm going to be late for the pub now....

[jitagon]

A year or so ago, I read about several Thai college students who were studying to be journalists. A major segment of the university course required them to interview politicians and businesspeople in Bangkok. Each student made several appointments.

Some interviewees were very late (more than an hour and a half) - whereas most didn't show at all. After repeated no-shows, the students got discouraged. All dropped out of the course.

Anyone with experience in Thailand can relate to being stood up: Indeed, people who are no-shows, often don't give any prior notice. Some slags to call within minutes of the meeting time - to say they can't make it - even though they've known for awhile that they won't make it. Also common; the other person won't call or answer the phone. More likely to happen with dates, but can happen with any slaggard.

Lessons to be learned if arranging to meeting a Thai person:

>>>>> Don't be prompt unless you don't mind hanging by yourself for awhile - possibly over 40 minutes, if the other shows at all.

>>>>> Meet at a comfortable place, like a coffee shop. If you meet at a place like a street corner, don't be surprised if you're stuck breathing smog and beset by loud traffic noise for as long as you can stick it out.

>>>> Call the other person before you set out for the meeting place. If no answer, it's a tough decision. Perhaps leave a text message and/or take a chance. Odds are about 50-50.

>>>> Set parameters for what you'll tolerate. Even if you're applying for a job, let the other person know how much tardiness you'll tolerate, and stick to it. In other words, if you arrange to meet at noon, the person calls at 12:08 and says, "sorry, I got sidelined, but I'll be there in five minutes." You can say, "OK, I'll wait until twenty past, but then, I'm off to do other things." And stick with it.

.....Some things become evident when you hear "just 5 minutes":

1. The other person didn't plan well enough 2. they don't give much value to meeting you

3. They don't give much value to your time. 4. It's never 5 minutes - but usually more like 10 to 45 minutes.

The Thai word for prompt is 'trong trong' (literally: straight straight) .....use it and stick with it.

It's a cultural thing....they just don't feel that promptness is that important. It isn't learned in their upbringing.

Just to illustrate, my Thai G/F was partially raised in a Farang family. Her mother was a maid for that family, if you need to know.

She has been taught the "virtue" of promptness by that family.

If we arrange to meet somewhere at a certain time, and she realises she's going to be late due to traffic. She will call me on the cellphone and tell me something like this: Big traffic jam on Sukhumvit road, I will be late. When I am in BKK she gives me one of her children's cellphones so she can contact me if she needs to.

My point: it's something she learned when she was young. She's 60 years now, but it was apparently locked in at that time.

Anyhow, by now she knows where I will be waiting. Either at the coffee shop, Audio/Video shop, or anything to do with computers. When she arrives, she finds me there.

P.S. She's taught her 3 children the same thing, but they are not as reliable in sticking to it.

No it's most definitely not. My Thai partner is and always has been on time. I have travelled in many Asian countries and have found those that are 'on time' and those that subscribe to their own account of 'rubber time'. By which they mean, they don't really give a toss about the inconvenience/frustration caused. A lot like some of the folks back home. It's not a 'cultural thing'. It's a 'I don't want you to have to wait about and waste your time because I'm just too lazy and inconsiderate to care', regardless of my ethnicity thing.

Edited October 25, 2008 by jitagon

[Neeranam]

The Thai word for prompt is 'trong trong' (literally: straight straight) .....use it and stick with it.

ตรงต่อเวลา dtrong dtaw wela

[imaneggspurt]

It is the thai way im afraid,. we will never fathom it, if there ass was on fire they would probably walk to the fire station,. ..i know of 2 instances of company directors coming to bkk from the uk specifically for an arranged meeting and 2 of the factory bosses didnt even show for the meeting with no explanation,.any of you lot saying this is ok blah blah blah have obviously had no business dealings with thais ,those that have will know EXACTLY what the op is talking about,.

[eefoo]

Lateness does seem to work in ones favour sometimes. Many years ago (1986 actually) a girl I had arranged to meet at a certain time at a certain place - a bar fortunately, failed to turn up. I got pissed, both in the English and American senses, and then went elsewhere and happened to meet 'her indoors', who has been my wife for 18 years so far. The orginal girl turned up 4 days later with a really lame excuse and wondered why I wasn't interested ...

[toptuan]

"1) In my university classes I have a policy that one's grade starts going down after four "lates." Nearly every single student pushes it right up to the limit, early in the term. After that, on-time, perfect attendance!"

jesus i used to absolutely hate teachers like you. they demanded everyone show up to their boring class because they had self esteem/ self importance issues. if i can still pass your class without showing up why do i need to show up on time? why cant i sneak in late? what does it matter? your class sucks and you are an unimportant figure at the front of the room.

A lot of unfounded assumptions in your rant, there, LifeIsRandom!

Sorry about your boring professors, but my classes happen to be known as the most stimulating courses in our department of 30 professors. Students fight to register for my courses before they fill up. (OK, maybe the other professors are so bad, that I'm simply the lesser evil! ).

You've obviously never taught, and have no idea what latecomers can do to a class lesson which needs 100% participation from all the students throughout the entire class period. That's what makes a class interesting. I'm sorry you've been warped by boring little potentates in your upbringing.

However, I do recognize your ilk. I think you're one of my lazy, inconsiderate students who failed last term.

Edited October 26, 2008 by toptuan

[Colonel_Mustard]

I have generally found Thais to be quite prompt (certainly in comparison to Italians/Spanish/Portuguese).

[werbs]

So somebody runs a bit late......slow down guys get a life.....it is inconvenient.....not the end of the world.......

Oh and if you require respect.......I doubt you'll get it continually critisising the people YOU chose to live among....

possibly aimed at me, but do yourself a favour and actually read my post, at no point do i mention any particular race, nationality or group of people, it annoys me wherever i am in the world, i am very respectful when dealing with people, unless they choose to be late. my attitude mirrors the person i am dealing with, however nothing annoys me more than holier than thou attitudes and 'oh look at me, i have adjusted to everything' attitudes of some posters on here.

i dont think i have read a thread on here yet without someone constantly feeling the need to defend thais and berate people who have the nerve to give an opinion.

the biggest <deleted> on here is when people try and compare Thailand to somewhere else to try and justify thailand, i don't know if you noticed this is a thai forum where we discuss thailand, so what if the problems are the same as elsewhere, i couldnt give a shiny <deleted> if people drive bad in south america, i dont live there.

lets just accept that everything is not rosy here and accept its a thai forum where people can discuss issues relating to them or thailand.

The fact is, however many people on here want to counter it that more often than not a thai will be late, whether its a contractor or a friend, i even had the majority of thais coming for an interview late.

ok rant over

I'm confused...first you say you were not choosing to discuss Thai people in your original post......

Then you continue to say this is a forum to discuss Thailand.....

dam_n...I'm going to be late for the pub now....

can you actaually read? where do I say I am choosing to not discuss thai people in my origional post. You made the fale assumption that I was referring to thai people. however when people do discuss thai people on this forum then that is their perogative as it is after all a thai forum to discuss thais and thailand.

really if you want to try and be clever to cause wind ups at least put some effort into it, relying on people of the same mental level as you to buy into what you are saying rather than read my posts and see what is actually written is just lazy.

i am not a school teacher, but I am sure if I was I would write 'must try harder' on your report

[Slogger]

A year or so ago, I read about several Thai college students who were studying to be journalists. A major segment of the university course required them to interview politicians and businesspeople in Bangkok. Each student made several appointments.

Some interviewees were very late (more than an hour and a half) - whereas most didn't show at all. After repeated no-shows, the students got discouraged. All dropped out of the course.

Anyone with experience in Thailand can relate to being stood up: Indeed, people who are no-shows, often don't give any prior notice. Some slags to call within minutes of the meeting time - to say they can't make it - even though they've known for awhile that they won't make it. Also common; the other person won't call or answer the phone. More likely to happen with dates, but can happen with any slaggard.

Lessons to be learned if arranging to meeting a Thai person:

>>>>> Don't be prompt unless you don't mind hanging by yourself for awhile - possibly over 40 minutes, if the other shows at all.

>>>>> Meet at a comfortable place, like a coffee shop. If you meet at a place like a street corner, don't be surprised if you're stuck breathing smog and beset by loud traffic noise for as long as you can stick it out.

>>>> Call the other person before you set out for the meeting place. If no answer, it's a tough decision. Perhaps leave a text message and/or take a chance. Odds are about 50-50.

>>>> Set parameters for what you'll tolerate. Even if you're applying for a job, let the other person know how much tardiness you'll tolerate, and stick to it. In other words, if you arrange to meet at noon, the person calls at 12:08 and says, "sorry, I got sidelined, but I'll be there in five minutes." You can say, "OK, I'll wait until twenty past, but then, I'm off to do other things." And stick with it.

.....Some things become evident when you hear "just 5 minutes":

1. The other person didn't plan well enough 2. they don't give much value to meeting you

3. They don't give much value to your time. 4. It's never 5 minutes - but usually more like 10 to 45 minutes.

The Thai word for prompt is 'trong trong' (literally: straight straight) .....use it and stick with it.

Maybe you should educate your journalism students how to handle such situations better than just dropping out of the course. Life is tough for journalists so they need to be armed with the skills to handle it. Just dropping out of a course shows a poor course or inadequate students - so don't blame their subjects - just get over it. I was a biology teacher and if students had difficulty handling experiments with animals then I didn't blame the animals.

[eek]

Lateness does seem to work in ones favour sometimes. Many years ago (1986 actually) a girl I had arranged to meet at a certain time at a certain place - a bar fortunately, failed to turn up. I got pissed, both in the English and American senses, and then went elsewhere and happened to meet 'her indoors', who has been my wife for 18 years so far. The orginal girl turned up 4 days later with a really lame excuse and wondered why I wasn't interested ...

Feel sorry for your wife tbh.

[brahmburgers]

....Therefore this business about traffic on Sukhumvit and Rama 4 on the Tuesday night was being relayed to me by the guy who was somewhere in Chiang Mai at that moment!....you figure the logic behind that?

I had a similar scenario with a guy who tried avoiding paying back a small loan. During a particular month, we arranged to meet several times, and each time I found out later that he had no plans to meet, but was just jerking me along - even saying things like the post above, to wit; "I'm at the turn-off to your street, will be there in five minutes" - when he wasn't even in the neighborhood. Granted, he was a particularly bad apple, and not at all typical of Thais in general (the Thais that bind).

When I was a lecturer at a local U, I would start the first class by drawing a big clock on the white board. The hands were positioned to show 1 minute past four. I would ask students, one by one, what time it showed. Until they figured out the ruse, they would say "four o'clock". The idea was to try to instill a sense of accuracy in their abilities to read dials - a skill which would be particular useful for scientists, but still somewhat useful for anyone in general (a climate researcher reading a thermometer, or a manufacturer dealing with high heat or pressure equipment, or a builder reading a tape measure, for example). All too often, people generalize and/or round-off numbers.

Also, at the University, I would always be in class and ready on time (whereas most farang lecturers there weren't). If a student came in late, even by two minutes, I would make a semi-stern mention of it. If anyone came in during or after roll call, I would make a notation on the student name list (though my Thai supervisor probably didn't give a whit about tardiness). The bit of embarrassment (by the student being given mini lecture on the attributes promptness) may have had a positive influence on some of my students, I don't know.

[Tod Daniels]

"Time sensitivity" is most definitely NOT these peoples' strong suit. To try to pawn it off on alleged "culture" is comedic. I find the foreigners who say things like that have dumbed themselves down and actually think they can embrace their "thai-ness".

There is something to be said for the post made by "PeaceBlondie" and its mention that most thais didn't have watches, mobile phones or even clocks at home in the not too distant past, and instead relied upon the ringing of the village bell to mark time. Going from an agrarian society which is NOT time sensitive to one that must deal with first world standards of time and punctuality is a steep learning curve which sadly they are still at the bottom of.

The thais I know and associate with are all to well aware of my penchant for punctuality and the need for their reciprocity in matters of time on the things we do together.

There is NO excuse for the lying and that is a trait I abhor in any race, creed or color of people. If you can't make it, at least have the courtesy to call and just f*cking say so. Unfortunately in this oh-so face saving society (again something pawned off as allegedly "cultural"), many times they fall back on lies to get out of perceived loss of face they imagine actually telling the truth might cause them. The idea they seem to have; that it isn't a lie if you don't find out is cute in a childish imbecilic way.

I have learned to coexist here amongst them with this adage; if you expect absolutely nothing from these people, every once in a while they'll exceed your expectations.

(edited twice for spelling, because I hate spelling errors almost as much as I hate liars)

Edited October 26, 2008 by tod-daniels

[Wandering]

I know that this will be hard for many of the above posters to understand but this really is a cultural issue more than a moral/ethics issue.

In the West we are taught from a young age that this is a moral issue.

Time is money.

Don't be late or you are stealing time and therefore money.

Etc.... (See above posts)

In Asia, Time (as many other things) is quite relative.

ie- you have many lifetimes to get your Karma sorted out.

Take life easy.

Hurry up and wait.

Mai Ben rai.

You have only sinned if you get caught.

"I don't like having my time "disrespected"" I hear some people say. I agree but to many people around here it would never occur to them that you felt "disrespected" by this.

I hear your anger rising. "YES they ARE! How dare they!"

Their upbringing was so vastly different than yours that it is extremely difficult to "bridge the gap"

I believe that this gap can be bridged, and that young people can be trained....

But don't give yourself ulcers waiting around for Thailand to change.

If it changes it will probably have very little to do with the input from an outsider.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Wandering

[bkkjames]

The Thai slackness for punctuality suits me well as I'm usually even later than most Thais.

BTW the phrase for 'on time' is trong way-laa

That's why I don't recongnise this phrase.

[bkkjames]

"Time sensitivity" is most definitely NOT these peoples' strong suit. To try to pawn it off on alleged "culture" is comedic. I find the foreigners who say things like that have dumbed themselves down and actually think they can embrace their "thai-ness".

There is something to be said for the post made by "PeaceBlondie" and its mention that most thais didn't have watches, mobile phones or even clocks at home in the not too distant past, and instead relied upon the ringing of the village bell to mark time. Going from an agrarian society which is NOT time sensitive to one that must deal with first world standards of time and punctuality is a steep learning curve which sadly they are still at the bottom of.

The thais I know and associate with are all to well aware of my penchant for punctuality and the need for their reciprocity in matters of time on the things we do together.

There is NO excuse for the lying and that is a trait I abhor in any race, creed or color of people. If you can't make it, at least have the courtesy to call and just f*cking say so. Unfortunately in this oh-so face saving society (again something pawned off as allegedly "cultural"), many times they fall back on lies to get out of perceived loss of face they imagine actually telling the truth might cause them. The idea they seem to have; that it isn't a lie if you don't find out is cute in a childish imbecilic way.

I have learned to coexist here amongst them with this adage; if you expect absolutely nothing from these people, every once in a while they'll exceed your expectations.

(edited twice for spelling, because I hate spelling errors almost as much as I hate liars)

Should have been edited a 3rd time for grammer and punctuation.

[brahmburgers]

to explain tardiness away as a cultural thing - is a cop out.

Endemic tardiness mostly stems from laziness, lack of responsibility, and lack of appreciation for the other person.

I've seen it in Latin Americans also - and is probably common among Africans and others - particularly those residing close to the equator.

Perhaps the hotter climate steams up the brain cells, and instills a general sense of mai pen raihood.

I recall a time, long ago, as an American teenager, when I went solo to visit the city of my birth - Copenhagen. My elder cousin met with me, and together we went to visit my aunt. Our pre-arranged meeting time was 10 am. As we were walking to the house, my cousin realized we'd be early by a minute or two, so he advised we walk slower - so as to arrive exactly at the agreed-upon time. This may sound anal to some, but arriving at an appointment too early can be annoying sometimes. Example, if you're expecting guests at 6 pm, and they arrive 15 minutes early - while you're showering or on the crapper - can be inconvenient. Times like that when you have to forgo your leisurely Phi Beta Krappa and are forced to make an early royal flush and - to answer the door. Not to mention .....parking your poop de ville in the garage. ....such flowery language relates more directly to getting interrupted mid-loaf on the throne, rather than showering.

BTW, I'm writing this from what is probably the only internet cafe in Tachilek, the Burmese border town across from Thailand's Mae Sai. For that matter, it may be the only internet cafe in all of NE Burma. .....and Thaivisa isn't blocked.

[jdinasia]

So Brahm ... you have asians, latins, and blacks now all stereotyped ... Good on you!

[Wandering]

RE: to explain tardiness away as a cultural thing - is a cop out.

"Our pre-arranged meeting time was 10 am. As we were walking to the house, my cousin realized we'd be early by a minute or two, so he advised we walk slower - so as to arrive exactly at the agreed-upon time. This may sound anal to some, but arriving at an appointment too early can be annoying sometimes."

====================

You are such a Westerner....

And so am I.

I understand where you are coming from but you seem unable to comprehend where the Asians are coming from. (Or other cultures you have deemed "lazy" as per your personal World View.)

Not a single Asia has commented here saying.

"Oh man you sure got us there. We sure do need to improve. When my friends and neighbors do it I am offended."

The Thai's have said very little on this topic. It is of no interest to them. They value other issues.

It is only Westerners who have an inflated the value of time.

Has anyone stopped to consider that perhaps Asians (and perhaps other warm climate people) have got it right and that we have it all wrong.

Westerners. (myself included)

We drive fast. We play hard and work harder. we are efficient. We are easily insulted. We get ulcers. We get angry and complain about our frustrations on forums. We die of cancer after a life of hard work.

Thai's gently glide through life without ulcers. Maybe they don't achieve the goals that you might set for them. Maybe they seem to callously disrespect your time and the things you hold dear. That's ok they don't mind your anger. They don't try to figure you out. Westerners are a strange unfathomable mystery. Oh well must have been their parents who messed up their heads by telling them to be prompt and respect other peoples time. Don't worry about the "Hot hearts" it's a strange Western thing.

Thai's are not lazy. My maid, instead of using a lawnmower, will sit for hours endlessly cutting the grass practically blade by blade. Of course this is odd to me. How many tasks could I have completed in the 3 hours needed to cut the lawn. I could have been stressed and intense and working fast and hard. At the end of her 3 hours she is relaxed and calm. She enjoys it but it is not laziness. She, in turn, thinks that I am lazy for not waking up at 5am (forcing me to tiredly meander through the day accomplishing very little.)

Thai culture is different. It includes the concept that you have many lifetimes to achieve your goals. If you believe that you have only 1 lifetime then you believe that when you die you go to either "nothing" or to "heaven."

So many people here refuse to accept that it is a cultural issue. They say that saying this is to "cop out."

I honestly believe that if you truly believe that then you truly don't understand Thailand.

The people who say this are probably interacting with Thai's who are struggling with life in the big city but are only first or second generation city dwellers. If you interact with villagers and people in towns where "True Thai Culture" resides then you will be the one who has to change. Thailand will not change for you. Thailand might bow to the forces of modernization but IMHO that would be a bad thing.

People stooped in the philosophy of Modernization will not be able to comprehend this. But it might be good for you to contemplate "why" you are so intense about issues of time and money.

[eefoo]

Lateness does seem to work in ones favour sometimes. Many years ago (1986 actually) a girl I had arranged to meet at a certain time at a certain place - a bar fortunately, failed to turn up. I got pissed, both in the English and American senses, and then went elsewhere and happened to meet 'her indoors', who has been my wife for 18 years so far. The orginal girl turned up 4 days later with a really lame excuse and wondered why I wasn't interested ...

Feel sorry for your wife tbh.

My wife doesn't need your pity, thanks very much. To what do I owe the rather insulting insinuation?

Should have been edited a 3rd time for grammer and punctuation.

Errr - grammar. Sorry - I'm just pedantic like that ..

Westerners. (myself included)

We drive fast. We play hard and work harder. we are efficient. We are easily insulted. We get ulcers. We get angry and complain about our frustrations on forums. We die of cancer after a life of hard work.

Speak for yourself. I gave up being insulted and getting angry many years ago. Never had an ulcer, and don't intend to. Perhaps that is why I like the laid-back lifestyle of the Thais ....

[eek]

Lateness does seem to work in ones favour sometimes. Many years ago (1986 actually) a girl I had arranged to meet at a certain time at a certain place - a bar fortunately, failed to turn up. I got pissed, both in the English and American senses, and then went elsewhere and happened to meet 'her indoors', who has been my wife for 18 years so far. The orginal girl turned up 4 days later with a really lame excuse and wondered why I wasn't interested ...

Feel sorry for your wife tbh.

My wife doesn't need your pity, thanks very much. To what do I owe the rather insulting insinuation?

HumbIe apoIogies eefoo, i totaIIy jumped the gun and misread your post. I had mistakenIy thought that you were aIready married when you went to see this girI and that you bumped into your then wife (meaning that she nearIy caught you out). I reaIise now that you meant that you met the Iady who was to become your wife. Sorry.

[eefoo]

No probs eek !!

[Wandering]

Westerners. (myself included)

We drive fast. We play hard and work harder. we are efficient. We are easily insulted. We get ulcers. We get angry and complain about our frustrations on forums. We die of cancer after a life of hard work.

Speak for yourself. I gave up being insulted and getting angry many years ago. Never had an ulcer, and don't intend to. Perhaps that is why I like the laid-back lifestyle of the Thais ....

I don't have ulcers or cancer either. I was trying to be metaphoric. Of course I was overgeneralizing, but it was to make a point.

I am trying to convey that we need to question why it is that we are so "time orientated"

I myself have begun to adjust to the Thai way of life and I find that in some ways I am better off.

When people are late I look at it as an opportunity to read or just enjoy some rare alone time.

When strangers want to befriend me I don't rush hurriedly on, I stop and make some new friends.

I may accomplish less daily goals, but I find I am much happier. This is part of my love for this place.

I think there are many people here who come to appreciate the differences.

I feel sorry for the guy who is so unable to adjust to the Thai Way that he angrily walks past the man he has an appointment with. It would probably be better for him to leave since he cannot adjust to this culture and can't imagine that it even is a cultural issue. Most of the posters here have somewhat adjusted but it isn't until you truly realize that you can't change their value system here that you can truly fit in. Ironically, it is after that point that you may actually be able to therefore change their value system.

[desi]

Of course I was overgeneralizing, but it was to make a point.

Nice to know as I almost replied to your original post. You painted a one sided picture. Thais do not brush off our anger. They'll even respond with anger of their own...

I am trying to convey that we need to question why it is that we are so "time orientated"

I myself have begun to adjust to the Thai way of life and I find that in some ways I am better off.

When people are late I look at it as an opportunity to read or just enjoy some rare alone time.

When strangers want to befriend me I don't rush hurriedly on, I stop and make some new friends.

I may accomplish less daily goals, but I find I am much happier. This is part of my love for this place.

I think there are many people here who come to appreciate the differences.

I feel sorry for the guy who is so unable to adjust to the Thai Way that he angrily walks past the man he has an appointment with. It would probably be better for him to leave since he cannot adjust to this culture and can't imagine that it even is a cultural issue. Most of the posters here have somewhat adjusted but it isn't until you truly realize that you can't change their value system here that you can truly fit in. Ironically, it is after that point that you may actually be able to therefore change their value system.

Although I've come to mostly shake my head instead of blowing up, it's taken since '94 in SE Asia. Previously, I was hot tempered. Now, I'm much more relaxed (but not quite there).

Someone doesn't show up for a promised Sunday outing out... ok... no problem. No harm done. I have other things I can do. And I'll keep a watch on the next arranged meeting so if missed, there won't be a third. Problem solved.

(Thais do not have a monopoly on being late and missing meetings. I've known people in the west who were habitually late or used lateness as a control factor (or that's what I've told myself it is). For one, her friends would tell her a meeting was at 4 if they expected her to show up at 8. For the other, well, he didn't have many friends...)

But when a BKK contractor doesn't show up for months after stringing me along by multitude of promises and out right untruths, then I do lose my temper out of frustration. They've lost my respect, my business, and any business that might have come their way so we both lose.

(note: this was the contractor who did the renovation on my condo, not one out of the phone book, so we did have what I thought was a decent working relationship. And aren't contractors known for this the world over?)

I realise that I have a long way to go before I understand the Thai way of doing business and conducting personal relationships. And I do try in my day to day relationships to mai bpen rai wherever I can. It's when frustrations build that I get into difficulties. It's when a feeling of a loss of respect comes into play.

A loss of respect... Just a thought... I learned a new Thai word recently, เกรงใจ (greng jai). It's no great secret that westerners are notorious for keeping to timely meetings (just reading through this post at the emotions, it's apparent that those dealing with westerners have been on the receiving end more than once). I believe there's even a Thai saying about farangs and rushing around so there's no real excuse for not being aware out of BKK. So, shouldn't Thais brought up with greng jai (who are aware), make a effort to respect this touchy subject?

I obviously know all about this being their country and all... I'm asking the question in the hopes that a Thai will respond.

Edited October 27, 2008 by desi

[Wandering]

Of course I was overgeneralizing, but it was to make a point.

Nice to know as I almost replied to your original post. You painted a one sided picture. Thais do not brush off our anger. They'll even respond with anger of their own...

Actually you bring up a good point. If a Thai truly gets angry they can harbor it for years before acting. I wasn't trying to be one-sided as much as I was trying to show how polarized our World Views can be.

Although I've come to mostly shake my head instead of blowing up, it's taken since '94 in SE Asia. Previously, I was hot tempered. Now, I'm much more relaxed (but not quite there).

A loss of respect... Just a thought... I learned a new Thai word recently, เกรงใจ (greng jai).

You've been here 14 years and are only just learning about เกรงใจ (greng jai) ?!?!?!? Are you serious or implying that you are only just beginning to understand it's cultural complexities.

I believe there's even a Thai saying about farangs and rushing around so there's no real excuse for not being aware out of BKK.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Is it perhaps that Farangs rush around like chickens with our heads cut off but never accomplish anything?

Or are you trying to explain something about urbanization.

[Tod Daniels]

So many people here refuse to accept that it is a cultural issue. They say that saying this is to "cop out."

I honestly believe that if you truly believe that then you truly don't understand Thailand.

Nice try playing that all encompassing "thai culture" card as a cover for these peoples' sorely lacking time sensitivity. Tell me if you're wearing a colored rubber bracelet? That is the type of mindless rhetoric and/or thinking which will keep this country in the third world forever.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but generations of mindless brainwashing and/or doing something for so long that you have no idea why you even do it, does NOT inherently make it part of any races cultural identity. Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand just how far behind the curve thailand is in it's way of thinking or doing things.

Thailand might bow to the forces of modernization but IMHO that would be a bad thing.

Yes, truly a bad thing that thailand might in my grandchildren's lifetimes be more than a bit player on the world stage selling jasmine rice and tapioca. Tragic indeed. ..

People stooped in the philosophy of Modernization will not be able to comprehend this.

I wouldn't get all "stooped" [sic] (or perhaps you meant 'steeped') in dismissing the philosophy of modernization, because unless thailand makes the jump into dealing with the first world countries on a first world time schedule it is doomed to be a third world developing country forever.

But it might be good for you to contemplate "why" you are so intense about issues of time and money.

In talking to many international businesses who have branches here, (albeit operating under the restrictive "thai ltd" laws), they said to a person; the lack of punctuality and time sensitivity, coupled with the inane perception of face loss are the two hardest things to overcome when dealing with thais. People are concerned about issues of time and money because in business; time IS money, deadlines not met often have substantial penalties. That's business 101, a book which sadly was evidently never translated into thai.

I suggest you go back to your shack in Nakhon Nowhere, drink lao-khao with the natives and watch the rice grow. Embrace your "thai-ness". Now that's "thai culture" if I have ever seen it.

[Wandering]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but generations of mindless brainwashing and/or doing something for so long that you have no idea why you even do it, does NOT inherently make it part of any races cultural identity. Perhaps it is you who doesn't understand just how far behind the curve thailand is in it's way of thinking or doing things.

You have nearly given a textbook definition of what culture is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture

http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/cfsi-icse/cil...re-en.asp?lvl=3

You may not like Thai culture but it is a distinct culture with its positive and negative traits.

Because you are so steeped (Yes that was the word I meant) in your own culture it is hard for you to see what is valuable in a system that you did not grow up in.

In your personal world view (as is shared by many). Things like money and time are valuable. That is your personal cultural value. It blows your mind that a non-retarded person would value things differently than you do. This is a big world and you will find that people value many things that you do not. This does not mean that they are wrong and that you are right.

You said that

I wouldn't get all "stooped" [sic] (or perhaps you meant 'steeped') in dismissing the philosophy of modernization, because unless thailand makes the jump into dealing with the first world countries on a first world time schedule it is doomed to be a third world developing country forever.

First of all the notions of 1-3rd world nations has been dismissed in favor of the terminology "Developing nations."

Secondly, it is your opinion that having money and power and world influence are good things and that to not have those things is bad. It would imply that the people were lazy or stupid.

It is only because of your personal cultural view that you feel that way. Not everyone will agree with your World View.

In Thailand many people make the conscious choice to not earn money so that they can spend time with family and friends. Westerners will see this as lazy. Western World view says. Get a job, work hard, and someday you will have enough money that you can enjoy your friends and family (hopefully)

Who is to say that the Thai's are not far superior and more intelligent than Westerners when they forgo money in favor of happiness.

I suggest you go back to your shack in Nakhon Nowhere, drink lao-khao with the natives and watch the rice grow. Embrace your "thai-ness". Now that's "thai culture" if I have ever seen it.

If only I were so wonderfully enlightened and in touch with the universe. Sadly I am using my computer in an enclosed room without any beer.

Tell me if you're wearing a colored rubber bracelet?

I didn't know that Thailand had picked up this cultural phenomenon that swept America in the early 90's

[desi]

You've been here 14 years and are only just learning about เกรงใจ (greng jai) ?!?!?!? Are you serious or implying that you are only just beginning to understand it's cultural complexities.

Reread my post. I didn't say Thailand, I said SE Asia.

I believe there's even a Thai saying about farangs and rushing around so there's no real excuse for not being aware out of BKK.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Is it perhaps that Farangs rush around like chickens with our heads cut off but never accomplish anything?

Or are you trying to explain something about urbanization.

I don't remember the exact saying, but I believe it has something to do with chasing a buffalo (maybe closer to smelling roses?)

[on-on]

Contractors especially of the telephone and electricity varieties expect the customer to devote the whole day to wait for them (this happens all the time in the (now) third world country of Australia)

And in the third world country of America with cable and phone installers last I lived there. That's why when you make the appointment they tell you that they will arrive in a time frame covering several hours. On top of that everyone remarks on how absurd it is that these particular industries can't show up at a given time and end up wasting your whole day because it's fairly abnormal. The issue being discussed seems to be punctuality and when you tell someone you'll show up between 13:00 and 18:00 and then you do, you're still punctual, if annoying. When you tell someone you'll show up at 13:00 and you show up at 14:00 or not at all you're not punctual.

Personally I enjoy living here and I enjoy the more relaxed environment (in many ways) that exists, but I just can't see how anyone can compare the punctuality one comes to expect in a major American metropolis (or comparable European city, Australian city, Japanese city - whatever) with the much more lax approach to punctuality seen here. The only difference for me is that when it's not a matter of business or travel arrangements I don't mind being flexible. But when it is, this very real phenomenon can be quite annoying.

And, no, it does not apply to all Thai people, it's just a common enough reality to make for a fitting stereotype. No more or less true than Americans driving unnecessarily huge cars or what have you. Incidentally, it's not an "Asian" thing, it varies by culture and isn't shared in a number of Asian countries. I also find the people feigning ignorance of this difficult to believe, but at the same time I don't see any reason to get worked up over it. Most are in Thailand presumably because they like it here on balance better than somewhere else. This is one of the things that many of us don't like, but if there's one lesson I've learned here it's that getting worked up over something is almost always counterproductive. If someone screws you over on time badly enough or repeatedly enough, either mai pen rai it or remember it and then if you're in a position to either fix it, return the favor or cut off dealings entirely, do that. Drama seems unnecessary either way - life is too short!