Pad Rallies At British Embassy In Bangkok

[Plus]

I'm totally confused - PAD is a fascist organisation that wants totalitarian state where people lose their voting power, and at the same time it's an anarchist movement campaigning against any form of geovernment.

One thing is clear - anti-PAD arguments here don't make any sense whatsoever.

[Scott]

Plus, I hear your point, but I don't quite agree. Like most of us, they want their form of gov't, which is fairly non-democratic and I don't think they are anarchists, per se, but use anarchy as a way of trying to achieve their goals. Anarchy exists because those in power have decided to let them 'have their way', so to speak.

[animatic]

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Anarchist

one who advocates anarchy or aims at the overthrow of civil government.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Anarchy

1. Absence of government; the state of society where there is no law or supreme power;

a state of lawlessness; political confusion.

Spread anarchy and terror all around. --Cowper.

2. Hence, confusion or disorder, in general.

-----------------------------------------------------------

American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy,

The belief that all existing governmental authority should be abolished

and replaced by free cooperation among individuals.

Note: Anarchy is sometimes used to refer to any state of chaos or lawlessness.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

Anarchism

An"arch*ism\, n. [Cf. F. anarchisme.]

The doctrine or practice of anarchists.

You are parsing words.

They don't want to end /'overthrow civil government' as an end product of their actions,

they want to CHANGE to 'A different civil government'. Big difference.

Not an absence of government or law.

While they are sitting in 1-2 places of less than 1 km square, and making a lot of noise.

The rest of the country is going about it's business as usual.

Courts do their ajudications, police make roadblocks and get tea money for helmet infractions.

Rice goes to the mills.

Fish to the markets.

Clothes to the shipping docks.

Ampurs give marriage licenses.

Traffic lights still work.

That is not confusion or disorder in general.

Where is the chaos and anarchy?

1-2 places of less than 1 km square? Not even there.

They have their own organizational structure at their sites.

Public services are provided like toilets, clothes power, water and bathing facilities.

This is not disordered. Just politically against the current ruling clique cabinet.

If, as Scott states, they are being allowed to do this,

then there is a power allowing it, and so it is under some form of control.

So not anarchy.

There is political confusion because there is great political division.

But PAD going away would not end that divide, only silence one spokesman for one side.

PAD is not the cause of political confusion per se. This confusion exists intrinsically at the moment.

I don't listen to you too much, because you listen to no one, that I have observed.

I have dialogs with others who I may disagree with, because they do at least

listen and consider. How can one take seriously absolutist dogm,

when there is other info blatantly available?

Blanket dogmatic statements demand refuting.

So they don't become defacto facts, to the unaware.

Edited November 5, 2008 by animatic

[Plus]

Plus, I hear your point, but I don't quite agree. Like most of us, they want their form of gov't, which is fairly non-democratic and I don't think they are anarchists, per se, but use anarchy as a way of trying to achieve their goals. Anarchy exists because those in power have decided to let them 'have their way', so to speak.

You know that I think their proposed form of governement will be far more democratic than the present one, but it's beside the point.

I see the desire to describe their methods as anarshist, but come on, they are very well organised and disciplined. You can't describe any revolutionary group as "anarchist" just because they want to overthrow the government.

All this anrachist blame is just looking for offensive labels, loaded with undertones, and sticking them on your opponents, nothing else.

[animatic]

Well a good word comes up, so lets look closer.

Revolutionary

Of or pertaining to a revolution in government;

tending to, or promoting, revolution; as,

revolutionary war; revolutionary measures; revolutionary agitators.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. - Cite

Websters is a bit harsh, but not inaccurate with in a narrow view.

But also see :

American Heritage Dictionary

1.)

1. often Revolutionary Relating to or being a revolution: revolutionary war; a museum of the Revolutionary era.

2. Bringing about or supporting a political or social revolution: revolutionary pamphlets.

2.) Marked by or resulting in radical change: a revolutionary discovery.

And

Dictionary.com Unabridged

1. of, pertaining to, characterized by, or of the nature of a revolution,

or a sudden, complete, or marked change: a revolutionary junta.

2. radically new or innovative; outside or beyond established procedure, principles, etc.: a revolutionary discovery.

3. (initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the American Revolution or to the period contemporaneous with it in U.S. history: Revolutionary heroes; Revolutionary weapons.

And the root word: Revolution

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

1. The act of revolving, or turning round on an axis or a center;

2. Return to a point before occupied, or to a point relatively the same; a rolling back;

That fear Comes thundering back, with dreadful revolution, On my defenseless head. --Milton.

3. The space measured by the regular return of a revolving body; the period made by the regular recurrence of a measure of time, or by a succession of similar events. "The short revolution of a day." --Dryden.

4. (Astron.) The motion of any body, as a planet or satellite, in a curved line or orbit, until it returns to the same point again, or to a point relatively the same; -

5. (Geom.) The motion of a point, line, or surface about a point or line as its center or axis, in such a manner that a moving point generates a curve,

6. A total or radical change; as, a revolution in one's circumstances or way of living.

The ability . . . of the great philosopher speedily produced a complete revolution throughout the department. --Macaulay.

7. (Politics) A fundamental change in political organization, or in a government or constitution;

the overthrow or renunciation of one government, and the substitution of another, by the governed.

Love this line.

The violence of revolutions is generally proportioned to

the degree of the maladministration which has produced them. --Macaulay.

Note: When used without qualifying terms, the word is often applied specifically, by way of eminence, to:

(a) The English Revolution in 1689, when William of Orange and Mary became the reigning sovereigns, in place of James II.

( The American Revolution, beginning in 1775, by which the English colonies, since known as the United States, secured their independence.

© The revolution in France in 1789, commonly called the French Revolution, the subsequent revolutions in that country

being designated by their dates, as the Revolution of 1830, of 1848, etc.

One thing about 'revolution' in ideas or politics, the goodness or lack of same

is usually determined by the WINNER, not the pundits of that time.

I am sure some will jump on the martial aspects of the word,

while it can equally be a radical change in IDEAS.

[Jai Dee]

Police submit case against 9 PAD chiefs to OAG

Investigators of the Nang Leong (นางเลิ้ง) Police Station will today submit charges against the nine People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) leaders to the Office of the Attorney General (OAG).

The PAD this morning criticized police on the matter during its usual speeches.

Source: National News Bureau of Thailand - 05 November 2008

[TAWP]

What are the charges, saying mean things that hurt their feelings?

[animatic]

Well I just watched something revolutionary happen in the USA this morning.

A revolution in thought and perception.

[ace]

Plus, I hear your point, but I don't quite agree. Like most of us, they want their form of gov't, which is fairly non-democratic and I don't think they are anarchists, per se, but use anarchy as a way of trying to achieve their goals. Anarchy exists because those in power have decided to let them 'have their way', so to speak.

You know that I think their proposed form of governement will be far more democratic than the present one, but it's beside the point.

I see the desire to describe their methods as anarshist, but come on, they are very well organised and disciplined. You can't describe any revolutionary group as "anarchist" just because they want to overthrow the government.

All this anrachist blame is just looking for offensive labels, loaded with undertones, and sticking them on your opponents, nothing else.

One can create anarchy without being an anarchist and be an anarchist without believing in anarchy. They are 2 different things, basically a noun and a verb. PAD don't subscribe to anarchism, more as I said before totalitarianism.

One question to the PAD mob here - why don't the PAD propose disbanded PPP, strong EC and then stand for election, let the people choose?

[TAWP]

Plus, I hear your point, but I don't quite agree. Like most of us, they want their form of gov't, which is fairly non-democratic and I don't think they are anarchists, per se, but use anarchy as a way of trying to achieve their goals. Anarchy exists because those in power have decided to let them 'have their way', so to speak.

You know that I think their proposed form of governement will be far more democratic than the present one, but it's beside the point.

I see the desire to describe their methods as anarshist, but come on, they are very well organised and disciplined. You can't describe any revolutionary group as "anarchist" just because they want to overthrow the government.

All this anrachist blame is just looking for offensive labels, loaded with undertones, and sticking them on your opponents, nothing else.

One can create anarchy without being an anarchist and be an anarchist without believing in anarchy. They are 2 different things, basically a noun and a verb. PAD don't subscribe to anarchism, more as I said before totalitarianism.

One question to the PAD mob here - why don't the PAD propose disbanded PPP, strong EC and then stand for election, let the people choose?

Probably because much like the underground resistance movement in France during WW2 was a mix of several groups, with one joint goal, they could never run for office together.

[Scott]

The PAD can't form their own party. Their platform would be what? Your vote doesn't count. Your ignorant and we are smart.

They are a self admiration group, because most people don't care much for them.

[Plus]

PAD is not going to join the "rat race" to win elections by the current rules. They have set up a party last year but were adamant about "running" in any shape or form - "don't wrestle with the pigs" reasoning.

Some PAD leaders have entered the politics alerady - like Rosana, she didn't run for parliament under some party banner but became a senator instead.

Somkiyat joined the Democrat party, I'm not sure if he was on their party list or not.

In a way Democrats are in a very delicate position here - they can't refuse to run, but they can't be seen as playing the same game as PPP either. We've had enough "everybody buys votes" arguments already.

The reality is that it's impossible to even play a clean game with current set of rules, let alone win.

I will withdraw my usual support for Democrats if they try to use TRT/PPPs methods just to win the elections.

[Jai Dee]

Police report on nine PAD leaders reaches prosecutors

The Office of the Attorney General on Wednesday received the police report charging nine leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy for their involvement in besieging Government House and raiding NBT broadcasting station in August.

Police have recommended for prosecution of the nine suspects for violating Articles 116, 215 and 216 of the Criminal Codes.

The nine are accused of instigating insurrection (Article 116), congregating to cause disturbance (Article 215), and refusing to disperse as per the order of law enforcement authorities (Article 216).

The suspects are Sondhi Limthongkul, Chamlong Srimuang, Pipop Thongchai, Somsak Kosaisuk, Somkiart Pongpaiboon, Suriyasai Katasila, Chaiwat Sinsuwong, Amorn Amornratananont and Thoedpoom Chaidee.

Source: The Nation - 05 November 2008

[Moonrakers]

Have they not already been charged and released on Bail for this?

[LaoPo]

Plus, I hear your point, but I don't quite agree. Like most of us, they want their form of gov't, which is fairly non-democratic and I don't think they are anarchists, per se, but use anarchy as a way of trying to achieve their goals. Anarchy exists because those in power have decided to let them 'have their way', so to speak.

Well said.

I am totally confused why on earth any Farang would support the PAD, knowing and realizing where they stand for....

"He (Sondhi Limthongkul) favors limits on foreign investment, opposes privatization of utilities and warns, "Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand." *

And if someone denies the PAD is anarchistic he might want to try and explain if blocking and seizing three airports, occupying Government Building for more than 2 months (!), disrupting long-distance rail service, calling on unions to mount a national strike and threatening to cut Bangkok's power and water supplies, are NOT anarchistic actions...

All those Farang who support the PAD now will be extremely disappointed if the PAD would rise to government power, on their own, or in a congsi with another political party.

And, if someone says they are NOT a political party, I suggest to dig a little further. They formed a political party already, sleeping in a drawer, but ready to act if Sondhi cs find the time appropriate.

* http://www.newsweek.com/id/157506

note: ..of course, if the article above doesn't suit the pro-PAD TV members the publisher is probably paid by an ex-PM...as always when pro-PAD members can't find any other arguments.

But, on a more serious note: why on earth would any expat-Farang (living in Thailand) support the PAD, knowing their b@lls will be screwed off, once the PAD grabs power...it really confuses me

Let's see what happens next with their arrogant behavior...:

PAD may consider peace talks

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/topstory/r...newsid=30087620

LaoPo

[Plus]

"Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand."

Hmmm, I, for one, would agree - if I wanted consumer-oriented society I wouldn't live here in the first place.

Somehow I don't feel like Thailand needs to become exactly like the US, or anywhere close. There's a perfectly good US already, who wants to live there - it's open. The world doesn't need another cheap imitation.

[JetsetBkk]

Wrong again.

Try Websters and the actually read it and look up the other words too.

Nah. Can't be bothered. My definition is the same as the one that LaoPo gave:

...

an·ar·chist

1: a person who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power

2: a person who believes in, advocates, or promotes anarchism or anarchy ; especially : one who uses violent means to overthrow the established order

...

Keep playing your silly word games - it doesn't really matter. This thread has turned into a waste of bandwidth like so many others.

Oh, for a decent "news" thread without all this nonsense.

[younghusband]

"Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand."

Hmmm, I, for one, would agree - if I wanted consumer-oriented society I wouldn't live here in the first place.

Somehow I don't feel like Thailand needs to become exactly like the US, or anywhere close. There's a perfectly good US already, who wants to live there - it's open. The world doesn't need another cheap imitation.

I agree Thailand should be true to its history,culture and traditions and not slave to the American model (or anti American model for that matter).

And yet it's worth pointing out that America is a special case among nations in that the values of its founders are really universal values.I personally find the vision of American democracy in action very inspiring and I imagine so do many Thais right across the political spectrum.

The Declaration of Independence was a revolutionary document which reverberates today.It is both startlingly intelligent and relevant.I quote the beginning of it.Read it carefully and you will see I'm not making a cheap political point.I can see perfectly well that it is consistent with the struggle to "depose" Thaksin and his pernicious influence.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world."

Interestingly the editorial and opinion pieces in the English language press today reflect a wistfulness that Thai politics have become so bitter and uncompromising.The grace and humility of McCain's concession speech has been especially noted.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that American values at their best have a universal quality, and however distinctive our national forms are we will always be the beneficiaries of this uniquely American contribution.

[Plus]

I liked the part about people's duty to overthrow unjust governments.

[JetsetBkk]

I liked the part about people's duty to overthrow unjust governments.

Dammit! I'd hoped you hadn't noticed that bit.

[Koo82]

The following is a somewhat pertinent piece currently doing the rounds of the internet:

DEAR British asylum authorities,

Before you say it, this is not dismayed sarcasm or a lame attempt at reverse psychology. This letter means every word that is written, and the one and only message that it tries to convey must not be misunderstood. We want you to keep Thaksin Shinawatra in England forever, or as long as you possibly can. Pure and simple.

He calls your country democratically mature and denounces his motherland as a dictatorial backwater where a large sector of the population cannot stand a rich and popularly elected leader.

Let him be there. He may be right. We are seemingly not sophisticated enough to deal with a democratic champion of the poor who has more money than everyone living below the poverty line put together but still needs to evade taxes and swallow up state properties against the will of the laws. Too complicated.

If he has already asked for asylum, give it to him right away before he changes his mind. If he has not, make him an offer he can't refuse. We don't care if that means you give Thailand a slap in the face. Just check our country's sorry state. A patient in a coma doesn't care how he looks.

Of course, a lot of people are making noises about the need to get him back for punishment. But ironically these are the same people who want Thaksin to disappear from the face of the earth. The other group that wants him back has the opposite goal of re-installing him as a democratic hero. So, as you can see, both camps harbour different agendas on his return, which will have the same consequence: disaster.

We may be a minority, but trust us when we say you will do Thailand a big, big favour by keeping the man. Let him launch a clandestine government in exile or simply continue to pull the strings of countless nominees. We won't blame you. If Thailand is as bad as he's saying it is to the world, we deserve to be weakened and undermined by this misunderstood angel of liberty.

We are through debating Ample Rich, Win Mark, SC Assets, the EXIM bank loan or the Ratchadapisek land deal. Thaksin has become a myth - he's either a hoax or something noble smeared by those envious of its virtues. Either way, he's too hot to handle over here.

We have ended up a wreck trying to work out if he was good or bad for Thailand. It's your turn, and the question is equally simple: Will you be helping a good, honest politician fleeing unjust prosecution in his homeland, or are you being used by a skilled con artist? Either way, a democratically mature nation like yours should be able to cope with the consequences of keeping him, without Parliament being seized and blood spilled on the streets.

Again, don't worry. You have little to lose. One half of the world will praise the asylum as your stern message against dictatorship, while the other half will be too exhausted to press on with his controversial cases anyway. And by all means The United Kingdom will be seen as a land of opportunities. Where else can political victims hunted down by ruthless dictators manage to buy a premium soccer club, sit in the director's box and then sell it at double the profit a year later?

We can never win with this man. None of the corruption cases was ever going to make its way to court when he was in power, but now that they have, he deems the courts politically motivated. This, however, doesn't mean we will mind if you take that excuse seriously and grant him asylum. There's a little problem, but we think you can cope. Giving him asylum could spark a "yellow" protest at your Bangkok embassy, but rejecting him will send a "red" army to the same compound. In either event it might cause some panic, but sooner or later embassy staff will get used to it like most of the Thai people.

So please, the least you can do is buy us some time. If you are reluctant to grant him asylum or want to kick him out straight away, a lot of legal time-wasting tactics can be explored. If it normally takes two years, make it five. If it normally takes five, make it ten. In fact, tell us who we have to kill if you can make him a British citizen.

Yours sincerely and God save your Queen,

A group of Thai people.

After the red first meeting on 15 Oct this year, they no longer say they're majority of Thais.

[Koo82]

By now they may use a more suitable name "a small group of Thai people".

[catmac]

Wrong again.

Try Websters and the actually read it and look up the other words too.

Nah. Can't be bothered. My definition is the same as the one that LaoPo gave:

...

an·ar·chist

1: a person who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power

2: a person who believes in, advocates, or promotes anarchism or anarchy ; especially : one who uses violent means to overthrow the established order

...

Keep playing your silly word games - it doesn't really matter. This thread has turned into a waste of bandwidth like so many others.

Oh, for a decent "news" thread without all this nonsense.

Sadly, Jetset, you simply won't get it on TV!

These "news" forums have been hijacked by a handful of die-hard PADisters endlessly posting the same old stories, wild accusations and nonsense. Anybody who dares to oppose them is hounded out of TV alltogether by "those we may not mention".

[Plus]

No one is hounding you, Catmac.

But if you really have issues with moderation - take it to the mods, we are not allowed to discuss this subject here.

[Los78]

What are the charges, saying mean things that hurt their feelings?

Maybe you have missed the countless illegal activities the PAD mob have committed with their leaders being involved in some way or another. Here are a some to remind you:

Damage and illegal entry to NBT, Beating to death a government supporter, Illegaling holding opponents against their will at venues, Vast damage to public and police property, blocking public roads, spreading various propaganda and lies. and offcoarse their illegal occupation of government house. hmm the list goes on but I guess you missed all that. just a reminder for you.

Cheers

[clausewitz]

What are the charges, saying mean things that hurt their feelings?

Maybe you have missed the countless illegal activities the PAD mob have committed with their leaders being involved in some way or another. Here are a some to remind you:

Damage and illegal entry to NBT, Beating to death a government supporter, Illegaling holding opponents against their will at venues, Vast damage to public and police property, blocking public roads, spreading various propaganda and lies. and offcoarse their illegal occupation of government house. hmm the list goes on but I guess you missed all that. just a reminder for you.

Cheers

Last week some teenages got lost after drinking and ended up near PAD central. The pAD guards harrrased them so teh driver flipped them the finger. He was gunned down for his disrespect, but they managed to escape without being killed. Hopefully his gunshot wound will heal and he will leave hospital this month. No arrests of any PAD guard of course.

[jdinasia]

What are the charges, saying mean things that hurt their feelings?

Maybe you have missed the countless illegal activities the PAD mob have committed with their leaders being involved in some way or another. Here are a some to remind you:

Damage and illegal entry to NBT, Beating to death a government supporter, Illegaling holding opponents against their will at venues, Vast damage to public and police property, blocking public roads, spreading various propaganda and lies. and offcoarse their illegal occupation of government house. hmm the list goes on but I guess you missed all that. just a reminder for you.

Cheers

Last week some teenages got lost after drinking and ended up near PAD central. The pAD guards harrrased them so teh driver flipped them the finger. He was gunned down for his disrespect, but they managed to escape without being killed. Hopefully his gunshot wound will heal and he will leave hospital this month. No arrests of any PAD guard of course.

Can you point us all to a Newspaper article about this? (In Thai or English as several of us read both) "gunned down" huh?

[jdinasia]

What are the charges, saying mean things that hurt their feelings?

Maybe you have missed the countless illegal activities the PAD mob have committed with their leaders being involved in some way or another. Here are a some to remind you:

Damage and illegal entry to NBT, Beating to death a government supporter, Illegaling holding opponents against their will at venues, Vast damage to public and police property, blocking public roads, spreading various propaganda and lies. and offcoarse their illegal occupation of government house. hmm the list goes on but I guess you missed all that. just a reminder for you.

Cheers

Last week some teenages got lost after drinking and ended up near PAD central. The pAD guards harrrased them so teh driver flipped them the finger. He was gunned down for his disrespect, but they managed to escape without being killed. Hopefully his gunshot wound will heal and he will leave hospital this month. No arrests of any PAD guard of course.

Can you point us all to a Newspaper article about this? (In Thai or English as several of us read both) "gunned down" huh?

Ah I got it .. the one where the kids claimed they were driving after drinking .... and flipped the PAD off. The PAD said the drunks shot at them and returned fire. The police didn't arrest the PAD.

Hmmm why didn't the police arrest the PAD guards? Evidence that the kids shot first perhaps?

[LaoPo]

Well, this whole PAD protest case will slowly but surely die out...:

The survey also showed plummeting support of the general public for the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).

The support for the anti-government group has gone down from 47.7% and 42.9% from last month to 26.3% to 29.6% this month.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=131882

PAD is losing ground in the Bangkok quicksand and once protesters aren't paid and fed anymore they will take the bus..............home !

People, also in Thailand, worry more now for their wallet than an ever going on -ENDLESS- fight between political parties and the hatred opinions of a few high-so.

The ongoing, declining economy in the world will hit hard upon Thailand as well and people are starting to feel in in their wallets already.

Maybe not so bad yet as in some US/EU countries and in other Asian countries like China, India, Japan, Australia and NZ but it won't last long before many threads on Thaivisa will scream out loud because of the disaster that's going to unfold.

The tourist-, service and real estate sectors will be hit VERY HARD !

Watch your wallet...and back !

LaoPo

[Plus]

I wouldn't worry about surveys like this. The support numbers fluctuate widely with every new development. So far the govt offensive was rather subtle, but const. amendments, impeachment against Rosana, and Thaskin's free travel to Philippines to meet up with his MPs - PAD might become as relevant as ever in a blink of an eye.

For now it's just calm before storm, and there's some serious strom brewing, of biblic proportions by Thai standards.

In just a few weeks there will be annual Royal address, everyone will be looking for a reaction to Thaksin's plea/ultimatum.

Whatever happens, Thaksin has drawn a line, and everyone will have to decide on which side they stand.