Learning To Be Polite In Thai

[Abhyastamita]

I'm writing a paper on the use of different politeness registers in Thai by non-native speakers for a class on teaching second languages. I want to find out whether it's an advantage for the learner to speak super polite Thai or street Thai or to take the time to learn how to use both depending on the circumstances. So I'm looking for people who can tell me about their experiences being over or under polite in Thailand and how any formal Thai education they may have had helped them or got them into trouble. I really appreciate any help you can give me!

Katherine

[Jay_Jay]

It all depends on what your goal is. Normally when a Farang is learning Thai, they'll go through a few stages. I've noticed that in the beginning, Thais will teach Farang the 'standard' Farang kind of version of Thai. It might not be extremely formal, but it uses language patterns that aren't used that naturally in everyday language.

For example -

Where's the bathroom?

ห้องน้ำอยู่ที่ไหน

hong nam yoo thi nai?

Where as if this was to come out naturally from a Thai, it would probably be

ห้องน้ำอยู่ไหน? - hong nam you nai

or

ห้องน้ำอยู่ตรงไหน? hong nam yoo t®ong nai?

While 'yoo thi nai' isn't formal, it's not that 'normal', and makes the Farang sound like a - Farang.

You'll probably find that ตรงไหน is used in everyday speech a lot more often than ที่ไหน, but never really taught to Farang until later on - or until they pick up on it themselves.

Thais will normally teach / correct a learner of Thai in the language based on what they 'should' be learning - which is often quite different from what's REALLY used. An example of this is hearing Thais correct Farang by ensuring that they say Sawatdee KHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAP or Sabai Dee RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRReu, where this rolled 'r' sound is quite foreign from your average Thai's subconscious Thai soundset.

When Thais are listening to 'Farang Thai', then the whole paradigm of what a Farang is, isn't, understands, likes, dislikes might filter the way they communicate with them in the words they use, topics they talk about etc.

Super polite Thai should be used in situations befitting super polite language. If there's any doubt though, it's probably better to err on this side of caution.

Working along the same lines of logic - if you can get the natural rhythms of what you call 'street Thai' - I would just call 'Thai', after a few seconds, your face as a Farang will take a back seat and you'll be able to interact with Thais more like a Thai - speak about topics that are more interesting to Thais and use more natural language when conversing.

Having taught Thai for many years now, I often go into the work places of many of the students and speak with the Thai employees about how to build an environment that's conducive to the expat (usually their boss) learning Thai. Amongst the complaints, I often hear something along the lines of - even if the Farang speaks Thai well, they speak about rubbish, or they come into the middle of a conversation and with a few words just kill it either by making it uncomfortable for the conversation to go on (because they think that they have to adapt the language used to suit the Farang), or the Farang likes to bring up topics or points of view that aren't 'sanook'.

I would say that it's important for learners of Thai to learn about as many registers of Thai that they can simultaneously. - 'street language', formal, 'Farang' Thai, 'internet' Thai, SMS Thai. Defining the differences between them can actually work as memory pegs.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Jay_Jay

[tgeezer]

Amongst the complaints, I often hear something along the lines of - even if the Farang speaks Thai well, they speak about rubbish, or they come into the middle of a conversation and with a few words just kill it either by making it uncomfortable for the conversation to go on (because they think that they have to adapt the language used to suit the Farang), or the Farang likes to bring up topics or points of view that aren't 'sanook'.

Very well put. This last bit resonates with me. Keep it shallow is always the best policy.

[desi]

Working along the same lines of logic - if you can get the natural rhythms of what you call 'street Thai' - I would just call 'Thai', after a few seconds, your face as a Farang will take a back seat and you'll be able to interact with Thais more like a Thai - speak about topics that are more interesting to Thais and use more natural language when conversing.

I would say that it's important for learners of Thai to learn about as many registers of Thai that they can simultaneously. - 'street language', formal, 'Farang' Thai, 'internet' Thai, SMS Thai. Defining the differences between them can actually work as memory pegs.

Yesterday I came across a book on learning Thai slang, but it was inundated with cuss words. I don't cuss in normal life (unless it's a hammer situation) so I'm not on for learning how to cuss in Thai.

So.... where do we find books on learning real Thai, sans the cussing? Not gutter Thai, but slang used in, say, professional situations?

Note: I'm sure I could go out on the street and start taking in what's being said, or lurk around Thai forums and pick up slang phrases. But I don't want to take on what I won't use, and I certainly don't want to upset Thais I know.

[5tash]

So.... where do we find books on learning real Thai, sans the cussing? Not gutter Thai, but slang used in, say, professional situations?

I think you may find Khun Benjawan's "Speak Like a Thai" series helpful.

The "Speak Like a Thai " books are on the third row down.

These are available in book stores in Bangkok.

[desi]

I think you may find Khun Benjawan's "Speak Like a Thai" series helpful.

Thanks. I have a few of the "Speak Like a Thai" series, but they are brief and suggest to fall back on Thai For Beginners.

Perhaps Jay_jay could tell us which of the course books out there come closer(?)

Everyday Thai for Beginners

Teach Yourself Thai

Thai For Beginners...

And of course, the 'Speak Like a Thai' series... (I'd love to get his opinion)

[meadish_sweetball]

Very good post there by Jay Jay.

I don't really have that much to add, just want to re-emphasize that to be really successful you need to be able to consciously adjust your register to the situation like native speakers do (to the best of their ability). And that takes a long time to do; after 10 years I don't feel I am there yet.

I've found that speaking polite Thai will often get you much more polite and personal service in many tourist spots. But then I am not comparing it to speaking casual street Thai (which I still do very badly), but to speaking English.

The advantage of speaking casual Thai is that it will make people let their guard, and hair, down a bit more.

It can get tiring after a while to interact with people who always make an effort to speak politely and correctly, when they usually speak in a completely different manner.

[Groongthep]

It all depends on what your goal is. Normally when a Farang is learning Thai, they'll go through a few stages. I've noticed that in the beginning, Thais will teach Farang the 'standard' Farang kind of version of Thai. It might not be extremely formal, but it uses language patterns that aren't used that naturally in everyday language.

For example -

Where's the bathroom?

ห้องน้ำอยู่ที่ไหน

hong nam yoo thi nai?

Where as if this was to come out naturally from a Thai, it would probably be

ห้องน้ำอยู่ไหน? - hong nam you nai

or

ห้องน้ำอยู่ตรงไหน? hong nam yoo t®ong nai?

While 'yoo thi nai' isn't formal, it's not that 'normal', and makes the Farang sound like a - Farang.

You'll probably find that ตรงไหน is used in everyday speech a lot more often than ที่ไหน, but never really taught to Farang until later on - or until they pick up on it themselves.

Thais will normally teach / correct a learner of Thai in the language based on what they 'should' be learning - which is often quite different from what's REALLY used. An example of this is hearing Thais correct Farang by ensuring that they say Sawatdee KHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAP or Sabai Dee RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRReu, where this rolled 'r' sound is quite foreign from your average Thai's subconscious Thai soundset.

When Thais are listening to 'Farang Thai', then the whole paradigm of what a Farang is, isn't, understands, likes, dislikes might filter the way they communicate with them in the words they use, topics they talk about etc.

Super polite Thai should be used in situations befitting super polite language. If there's any doubt though, it's probably better to err on this side of caution.

Working along the same lines of logic - if you can get the natural rhythms of what you call 'street Thai' - I would just call 'Thai', after a few seconds, your face as a Farang will take a back seat and you'll be able to interact with Thais more like a Thai - speak about topics that are more interesting to Thais and use more natural language when conversing.

Having taught Thai for many years now, I often go into the work places of many of the students and speak with the Thai employees about how to build an environment that's conducive to the expat (usually their boss) learning Thai. Amongst the complaints, I often hear something along the lines of - even if the Farang speaks Thai well, they speak about rubbish, or they come into the middle of a conversation and with a few words just kill it either by making it uncomfortable for the conversation to go on (because they think that they have to adapt the language used to suit the Farang), or the Farang likes to bring up topics or points of view that aren't 'sanook'.

I would say that it's important for learners of Thai to learn about as many registers of Thai that they can simultaneously. - 'street language', formal, 'Farang' Thai, 'internet' Thai, SMS Thai. Defining the differences between them can actually work as memory pegs.

I normally try to avoid quoting entire posts but in this case I think it deserves an exception. Jay_Jay's comments are right on the mark and much of it reflects my experience as well.

A few years ago I attended some classes through the Continuing Education Department at Chula. The classes were in English but I would often speak with the instructors outside the classroom in Thai. I asked them to feel free to correct my Thai as I was really interested in learning to speak Thai properly and I knew these University instructors were the type of people who would be fair and accurate in their corrections. I was pleasantly surprised that they obliged my request because I was also keenly aware of the Thai custom of being reluctant to criticize anyone for anything. What I found most interesting however was that they would correct my Thai for politeness as much as or more than for pronunciation, vocabulary or grammar. Just as Jay_Jay pointed out, I was encouraged to trill the rrrr sound, especially in the polite particle ครับ "khrrrap" when in typical speech this word usually comes out "kap". I believe Jay_Jay is correct in saying that Thais expect polite and proper farangs to speak formally like this even though they themselves don't usually speak this way unless speaking to someone of much higher status. Unfortunately for us foreigners we end up sounding very unnatural when we speak too formally in everyday settings like at the market or in a taxi. On the other hand many foreigners who have learned spoken Thai mostly from conversations with market vendors and cab drivers and the like run the risk of sounding rather low and even rude when using the wrong vernacular in the wrong situation.

I think it's all just a matter of experience and knowing when it is appropriate to speak informally and when it's not. Mostly this is learned from practice and lots of trial and error. As many have said before, it's always better to err on the side of too polite than not polite enough but eventually you want to get to the level where you are neither too casual or too polite but simply appropriate and natural. That takes a long time and I haven't got there yet but I keep trying. If you are lucky enough to have some one around who is educated in and truly fluent in both Thai and English to give you advice and explanations it can really help speed the learning process along.

Thanks to Jay_Jay for an excellent post.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Groongthep

[Jay_Jay]

Hey Desi - well you named the best two ways I can think of.

1. Go out there and get down and dirty with Thais (preferably that don't speak English).

2. Webboards / Forums etc.

The beautiful thing about forums / boards on the internet is that people type in 'spoken' Thai.

I find your comment 'I don't want to take on what I won't use' extremely interesting. You say this as though we have a finite capacity to learn language.

If I was learning say Japanese. Would that mean that I wouldn't learn the words that females use because I as a male would never use that language? Our brain is an amazing thing - and from experience, the more you learn (languages included), the more you CAN learn. You're going to hear all of that language around you - so learn it, store it away and then listen to when, how, where etc. it's used.

Those books you were talking about - that gets back to the point that I mentioned. There are a number of books in Thai that go into this kind of language. I admit that there is a lot of crass language in there that you wouldn't want to go repeating in public. If you remember back to my statement a few posts up regarding speaking about the things that Thais like to speak about. You will find that once the ice is broken and you have a close circle of Thai friends that are speaking openly with you, there are things spoken about and language used that would make a sailor cringe. I often have executive clients over from New York and am often caught in a tough place. When we go out to dinner with the Thai team, the conversation normally turns to what they'd call in the west 'the gutter' - where there are no political correct boundaries when it comes to sex, race etc. as the west has. The politically correct boundaries lay elsewhere. The Farang feel extremely uncomfortable when they realise where the conversation has gone and what everyone's talking about - so used to having to be politically correct in the west, it's a shock to them to hear people speaking about such things and using such language.

5tash's suggestion of K'Benjawan's series is a good one. There are also audio files that can help you out.

If you are already reading elementary stuff, go and buy a kids or teen book in Thai like Harry Potter, or even the Mangga cartoons. Read them to enjoy the stories - not just to learn language. You'll get a lot of great specimens as you go through without even noticing you're learning.

I mention to my students - when you think that you can speak Thai well, it's time to shut up and listen to / observe what's really going on. I don't want to learn a language just to express my opinions in it. It's more to find out more about the people that use it - learn what makes them tick.

[desi]

I find your comment 'I don't want to take on what I won't use' extremely interesting. You say this as though we have a finite capacity to learn language.

I wasn't talking about the capacity, just the subject matter.

I'm torn actually. On one hand, I feel I should know the basics at least.

On the other, I have a habit of grabbing foreign phrases from thin air when I'm under the stress of trying to get something out, so there is a real fear of my blurting out unsavoury sentences if I know them...

(Living in France was an experience - who could have known that a mere cow was so bad? And it only took me an afternoon after learning the phrase, before it was on my lips)

I've already lost a Thai working relationship because I shared a cartoon that was 'beyond the pale'. And like I said, I don't use cussing in daily life (but I do have a crude sense of humour in certain company). I was only putting the cartoon forward as funny.

Ok, admittedly, if I'd have known what the nuances of the cartoon meant before rather than later, perhaps I would have been more sensitive... but... I had several Thais telling me it was common speech. And others dancing around, saying it was 'not good' (what is 'not good' anyway?). And this after I point blank asked them to tell me (drn it).

So, who to believe?

But I'd rather be careful about what I learn. At first anyway, when struggling to remember sentences. Which is sort of why I was curious at what you felt were the best courses for speaking Thai without tripping over the line.

Edited November 5, 2008 by desi

[Jay_Jay]

ahhh Desi - I hear ya! I agree that you wouldn't want the people around you think that you're suffering from Tourettes!

I think they're both right. What you saw (I'm thinking that you must have bought the ทะลึ่ง series?) - is pretty normal, and is what forms the meat of many a dinner conversation with friends - but when you actually confront them as a Farang, they're probably a little embarrassed - be cause our 'Thai Culture' isn't as free / open / crass as you in the west! (Said with tongue in cheek )

I say - don't be careful. Be a daredevil! - learn as much as you can. If you lose a friend or two in the process, doesn't matter - you would have learned some great lessons and hey - there are plenty more fish in the sea! ... ok ok.. i'm saying that also a little tongue in cheek, but I do believe it. I think that if they're real friends, you won't lose them - they'll actually probably help you. In taking that mental wall down, you'll start to be a lot more relaxed when using the language and probably a lot more observant too - so you'll be able to pick up even faster on what to use and when.

Oh yeah - I meant to ask in my last post Desi... are you by any chance Indonesian?

[desi]

It's not so much losing friends that I'm worried about as I'm the sort who is 'love me, love my warts'. It's the professional relationships that are the main concern.

In business, I don't want to be known as the farang women with the toilet mouth. Nor do I want to speak Thai like a clueless farang. But I don't know enough of either to be able to judge which is which. Yes?

No, I'm not Indonesian. What I am is having second thoughts about my adopted Canadian faux citizenship due to the recent election news...

[Jay_Jay]

Right. The business relationships are important... I think that those are the situations to err on this side of caution that everyone's talking about

From my experience, the 'love me, love my warts' attitude has led to many a miserable life in the kingdom. I like to find new ways of rendering my warts in a palatable manner depending on where I am.

The Indonesian thing - just curious as 'Desi' is a very common Indonesian name. If you were, I was going to draw some parallels in Bahasa / Javanese etc.

[desi]

Depends on what you mean by, 'love me, love my warts'. To me, it's more about not turning into someone else to please others. And as I'm already sweet already, I don't see the advantage in bending further

The Indonesian thing... for a bit I thought it was referring to my speech patterns. Due to my local staff and friends, for ten years I took to Singlish like a second skin. After four years away, I still have blind spots when it comes to proper English grammar. If anything else, what Singlish is, is addicting. It's like having your tongue dance with the Asian brotherhood, only not.

Anyway, thanks for verifying my worries about being cautious.

(If you start seeing my posts filled with shocking Thai, you'll know I'm no longer semi-retired, but totally retired. Or just ready to go...)

[Abhyastamita]

Thanks for such a helpful reply! This farang dialect you talk about is now the subject of my paper.

[Jay_Jay]

Would love to read it when it's done.

[phaethon]

Would love to read it when it's done.

Me too!

Thanks for the informative posts all, especially 'JJ'

Another topic for a paper might be the vast range of alternatives to the polite particle 'khrap' that English-speakers go through to avoid what sounds like a naughty word in English (kup, krup, krub etc...).

I have picked up from somwhere that 'khrap' is the full form but 'khap' is mostly used in BKK, consequently if I am in a 'super polite' situation (officials etc.) I use 'khrap' and most places I use 'kap'. I haven't deliberately tested this hypothesis outside BKK - comments.

There seem to be lots of dropped letters and syllables in 'correct' and 'normal' Thai just as in 'correct' and 'normal' English.

I have used "Colloquial Thai" by John Moore and Saowalak Rodchue (Routledge, 1994) - what's the expert opinion on this please (khrap )?

[smoz]

5tash's suggestion of K'Benjawan's series is a good one. There are also audio files that can help you out.

Please advise where to find audio files with polite, every day, non-street speech at advanced level?

[DavidHouston]

5tash's suggestion of K'Benjawan's series is a good one. There are also audio files that can help you out.

Please advise where to find audio files with polite, every day, non-street speech at advanced level?

You might wish to try this radio station: http://www.radioparliament.net/live_broadcasting.php

[bina]

having discussed this in the past:

i learned thai from thai males that are country workers.... so the few times ive met more educated thai, i've listened to their conversations with me and saw that they were speaking mch more formally than they would otherwise be doing. and have learned to pick up and use the way they speak since it seems expected of me to use that lanuage as a farang woman as a 'boss' (even though im not , i'm not a thai field worker either)... however the reverse is also true..

i've wathced the thai males pick up on hebrew male style language complete with all the slang mixed in, and then had them afterwards ask me what they just said, really. but they realized that to go along with the boss, buddy/buddy as it were (since here that is very very important, one big family work style) they need to speak that way. i cant imagine a thai speaking with his /her boss that way in thailand.... its a learned thing...

i also listen to speech patterns of thai women (from movies and tv mostly no thai women here to chat with, those that are here, dont bother to chat with me at all) since they use different styles of speech patterns and choices of wording and intonation and body language ... a very very important nuance that i think farang males seem to lose out on. i watch the thai guys speaking and i watch their body language and they are very expressive. farangs just sort of stand and talk. btw, this goes for those anglos in the middle east who dont talk with their hands. here, hand motions are very important to clue u in on what is really being said or meant.

my own two bits

bina

israel

[Gaccha]

I find the social engineering by foreign language teachers fascinating and wholly ridiculous.

One teacher said to me "never never never say Khap". I walk out the room and the next conversations all have the word planted in it and directed at me.

The problem is it depends why you are learning the language. Most learning simply want to "get by" and that can be achieved by a neutral if slightly silly way of speaking.

In Japanese, there is a mountain of politeness to learn. It is so complex that I had to correct a Japanese waitress who was using the wrong polite form of Japanese with me. That must hurt. A foreigner correcting you saying something as simple as:"Here is your meal".

But I digress.

I also want to see that paper on "Farang Thai". And this brings me onto one final question: In Japan the phrase "Watashi wa amerika kara kimishita" is the classic Farangish Japanese. What phrase could be used by Thais to mock Farangs' bloated Thai?

[kokesaat]

It all depends on what your goal is. Normally when a Farang is learning Thai, they'll go through a few stages. I've noticed that in the beginning, Thais will teach Farang the 'standard' Farang kind of version of Thai. It might not be extremely formal, but it uses language patterns that aren't used that naturally in everyday language.

For example -

Where's the bathroom?

ห้องน้ำอยู่ที่ไหน

hong nam yoo thi nai?

Where as if this was to come out naturally from a Thai, it would probably be

ห้องน้ำอยู่ไหน? - hong nam you nai

or

ห้องน้ำอยู่ตรงไหน? hong nam yoo t®ong nai?

While 'yoo thi nai' isn't formal, it's not that 'normal', and makes the Farang sound like a - Farang.

You'll probably find that ตรงไหน is used in everyday speech a lot more often than ที่ไหน, but never really taught to Farang until later on - or until they pick up on it themselves.

Thais will normally teach / correct a learner of Thai in the language based on what they 'should' be learning - which is often quite different from what's REALLY used. An example of this is hearing Thais correct Farang by ensuring that they say Sawatdee KHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAP or Sabai Dee RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRReu, where this rolled 'r' sound is quite foreign from your average Thai's subconscious Thai soundset.

When Thais are listening to 'Farang Thai', then the whole paradigm of what a Farang is, isn't, understands, likes, dislikes might filter the way they communicate with them in the words they use, topics they talk about etc.

Super polite Thai should be used in situations befitting super polite language. If there's any doubt though, it's probably better to err on this side of caution.

Working along the same lines of logic - if you can get the natural rhythms of what you call 'street Thai' - I would just call 'Thai', after a few seconds, your face as a Farang will take a back seat and you'll be able to interact with Thais more like a Thai - speak about topics that are more interesting to Thais and use more natural language when conversing.

Having taught Thai for many years now, I often go into the work places of many of the students and speak with the Thai employees about how to build an environment that's conducive to the expat (usually their boss) learning Thai. Amongst the complaints, I often hear something along the lines of - even if the Farang speaks Thai well, they speak about rubbish, or they come into the middle of a conversation and with a few words just kill it either by making it uncomfortable for the conversation to go on (because they think that they have to adapt the language used to suit the Farang), or the Farang likes to bring up topics or points of view that aren't 'sanook'.

I would say that it's important for learners of Thai to learn about as many registers of Thai that they can simultaneously. - 'street language', formal, 'Farang' Thai, 'internet' Thai, SMS Thai. Defining the differences between them can actually work as memory pegs.

Jay Jay,

I ran ห้องน้ำอยู่ไหน? - hong nam you nai

or

ห้องน้ำอยู่ตรงไหน? hong nam yoo t®ong nai? by my neighbor who helps me with my Thai. Here's how she explained the difference to me.

If you were in a restaurant and expected the bathroom to be in the general vicinity, you'd ask ห้องน้ำอยู่ไหน?and expect to be given sort of specific instructions.....as: "Down the hall, to the left."

If you were at a big park and weren't sure if the bathrooms were nearby, you might ask for more general directions with ห้องน้ำอยู่ตรงไหน? and expect an answer such as: "On the other side of the field, over there (while the person is pointing in the general direction)."

Either way, she said, you'd get the answer to your question. Thanks for your useful tips on the language.

[Jay_Jay]

It all depends on what your goal is. Normally when a Farang is learning Thai, they'll go through a few stages. I've noticed that in the beginning, Thais will teach Farang the 'standard' Farang kind of version of Thai. It might not be extremely formal, but it uses language patterns that aren't used that naturally in everyday language.

For example -

Where's the bathroom?

ห้องน้ำอยู่ที่ไหน

hong nam yoo thi nai?

Where as if this was to come out naturally from a Thai, it would probably be

ห้องน้ำอยู่ไหน? - hong nam you nai

or

ห้องน้ำอยู่ตรงไหน? hong nam yoo t®ong nai?

While 'yoo thi nai' isn't formal, it's not that 'normal', and makes the Farang sound like a - Farang.

You'll probably find that ตรงไหน is used in everyday speech a lot more often than ที่ไหน, but never really taught to Farang until later on - or until they pick up on it themselves.

Thais will normally teach / correct a learner of Thai in the language based on what they 'should' be learning - which is often quite different from what's REALLY used. An example of this is hearing Thais correct Farang by ensuring that they say Sawatdee KHRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAP or Sabai Dee RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRReu, where this rolled 'r' sound is quite foreign from your average Thai's subconscious Thai soundset.

When Thais are listening to 'Farang Thai', then the whole paradigm of what a Farang is, isn't, understands, likes, dislikes might filter the way they communicate with them in the words they use, topics they talk about etc.

Super polite Thai should be used in situations befitting super polite language. If there's any doubt though, it's probably better to err on this side of caution.

Working along the same lines of logic - if you can get the natural rhythms of what you call 'street Thai' - I would just call 'Thai', after a few seconds, your face as a Farang will take a back seat and you'll be able to interact with Thais more like a Thai - speak about topics that are more interesting to Thais and use more natural language when conversing.

Having taught Thai for many years now, I often go into the work places of many of the students and speak with the Thai employees about how to build an environment that's conducive to the expat (usually their boss) learning Thai. Amongst the complaints, I often hear something along the lines of - even if the Farang speaks Thai well, they speak about rubbish, or they come into the middle of a conversation and with a few words just kill it either by making it uncomfortable for the conversation to go on (because they think that they have to adapt the language used to suit the Farang), or the Farang likes to bring up topics or points of view that aren't 'sanook'.

I would say that it's important for learners of Thai to learn about as many registers of Thai that they can simultaneously. - 'street language', formal, 'Farang' Thai, 'internet' Thai, SMS Thai. Defining the differences between them can actually work as memory pegs.

Jay Jay,

I ran ห้องน้ำอยู่ไหน? - hong nam you nai

or

ห้องน้ำอยู่ตรงไหน? hong nam yoo t®ong nai? by my neighbor who helps me with my Thai. Here's how she explained the difference to me.

If you were in a restaurant and expected the bathroom to be in the general vicinity, you'd ask ห้องน้ำอยู่ไหน?and expect to be given sort of specific instructions.....as: "Down the hall, to the left."

If you were at a big park and weren't sure if the bathrooms were nearby, you might ask for more general directions with ห้องน้ำอยู่ตรงไหน? and expect an answer such as: "On the other side of the field, over there (while the person is pointing in the general direction)."

Either way, she said, you'd get the answer to your question. Thanks for your useful tips on the language.

I'm sitting here picturing the two situations... I guess you would use it in those cases. There's a lot of grey area between the two. The important thing is to embed these structures so that they start coming out sub-consciously and get rid of the farang sounding 'อยู่ที่ไหนครรรรรับ'

It's not just Thai. I was coaching a friend yesterday with his Bahasa Indonesia. He's been really gung ho doing the Pimsleur series. The results are great and he's really becoming fluid with what he's learning, but sadly, the Indonesian used there is very different to what you'd here on the streets of Jakarta in an every day conversation. It's as though people think that they're 'sinning' if they told the learner the way the language REALLY sounds.

I'll often drill people in my Thai classes with question / responses with 'attitude' like:

ห้องน้ำอยู่ตรงไหน?

อยู่ตรงเนียะ

จะลงฝั่งไหน?

จะลงฝั่งเนียะ

จะไปรู้ได้ไง?

(ทำ)ไมจะไม่รู้ดิ

I find that these start to build more natural rhythms and responses.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Jay_Jay

[Kier]

Very interesting thread.

I've often wondered about the trilled ร, particularly in ครับ. Like most I was taught to pronounce it similarly to the Spanish rr sound, but of course quickly noticed that most Thais pronounce ร as l, or drop it completely in some words. I've asked several Thais about whether I should bother to trill the r or not, and have been given all kinds of advice from not to bother at all as it sounds like you're trying too hard, trill it but don't bother on ครับ, to always trill it. I also questioned one of my teachers at the time who said that he tried to pronounce a trilled ร but admitted that in many situations, particularly when with friends and family, he would adopt the l sound.

Of course, newsreaders always trill ร beautifully, but then they also use more formal vocabulary too. I wouldn't want to model myself on their pronunciation only to come off sounding a bit OTT. On the other hand besides the vocabulary, I would say that BBC Engish would be a good example for a foreign learner of English, and would rather meet someone who was a bit over polite in their English than someone that spoke like the average man in the pub, or some teenager, unless of course they were near native standard. Furthermore, I pretty much speak home counties English and so I'd like to speak the equivalent in Thai.

So I just wanted to know what most people do regarding the ร sound. I myself trill on all words but ครับ which of course I pronounce as คับ. Also when speaking at speed, particularly where ร appears in a consonant cluster, then I have noticed that I will often pronounce it more like the Spanish single r than the rr sound, but never as l. I guess this is quite a safe way to go for someone like me as I am by no means advanced. I'm sure that higher level speakers are able to adjust to their surroundings, not just with their pronunciation of ร, but with their entire way of speaking, but at this stage I'd rather be a little cautious than risk sounding rude. I'm sure that as foreign speakers we sound somewhat odd and laboured regardless so it probably isn't really an issue, I just wondered what other people's thoughts were.

Thank you.

[Jay_Jay]

It really depends who you're speaking to. I've been involved with TV news-reading classes and they really stress the importance of getting your ร's and ล's in the right place. This in itself goes to show that it's not natural in the standard colloquial Thai sound system. The natural sounds in the past for ร have been ฮ and ล.

A good way to get your tongue moving in a similar fashion to a Thais tongue is to start off by yourself really belting out the 'rrrrr'. Drill yourself for about a day or so as you're walking around town. A good technique that allows you to practice language exercises like this and still look sane is to stick your headphones in and then when you're there jabbering away to yourself, people think that you're on the phone.

After your tongue has gotten used to that, start to ease off. When you say 'krap', motion your tongue up as though it's going to make the 'r', but fall just shy of the alveolar ridge (hard bumpy bit after you pass the top of your teeth heading for the roof of your mouth). Do the same with your ล's that don't appear as the secondary consonant in clusters like ปลา- Most Thai teachers would be screaming bloody murder to have that suggested to a student insisting to learners of Thai that all Thais say ปลลลลา ...

Priming your tongue like this is good as it keeps it still in the action - and makes the transition easier if you find yourself in the company of people that you have to be particularly rrrrroly with.

[Kier]

Thank you Jay Jay.

I think I know exactly what you mean. It's almost as if you hint at a spanish single r (like flicking the tongue against the alveolar ridge just once) but you don't quite make the sound. I've been told about this when learning Spanish, almost like a silent r, but never learned to hear the difference.

By the way do you teach at a school?

It really depends who you're speaking to. I've been involved with TV news-reading classes and they really stress the importance of getting your ร's and ล's in the right place. This in itself goes to show that it's not natural in the standard colloquial Thai sound system. The natural sounds in the past for ร have been ฮ and ล.

A good way to get your tongue moving in a similar fashion to a Thais tongue is to start off by yourself really belting out the 'rrrrr'. Drill yourself for about a day or so as you're walking around town. A good technique that allows you to practice language exercises like this and still look sane is to stick your headphones in and then when you're there jabbering away to yourself, people think that you're on the phone.

After your tongue has gotten used to that, start to ease off. When you say 'krap', motion your tongue up as though it's going to make the 'r', but fall just shy of the alveolar ridge (hard bumpy bit after you pass the top of your teeth heading for the roof of your mouth). Do the same with your ล's that don't appear as the secondary consonant in clusters like ปลา- Most Thai teachers would be screaming bloody murder to have that suggested to a student insisting to learners of Thai that all Thais say ปลลลลา ...

Priming your tongue like this is good as it keeps it still in the action - and makes the transition easier if you find yourself in the company of people that you have to be particularly rrrrroly with.

[Jay_Jay]

Thank you Jay Jay.

I think I know exactly what you mean. It's almost as if you hint at a spanish single r (like flicking the tongue against the alveolar ridge just once) but you don't quite make the sound. I've been told about this when learning Spanish, almost like a silent r, but never learned to hear the difference.

By the way do you teach at a school?

It really depends who you're speaking to. I've been involved with TV news-reading classes and they really stress the importance of getting your ร's and ล's in the right place. This in itself goes to show that it's not natural in the standard colloquial Thai sound system. The natural sounds in the past for ร have been ฮ and ล.

A good way to get your tongue moving in a similar fashion to a Thais tongue is to start off by yourself really belting out the 'rrrrr'. Drill yourself for about a day or so as you're walking around town. A good technique that allows you to practice language exercises like this and still look sane is to stick your headphones in and then when you're there jabbering away to yourself, people think that you're on the phone.

After your tongue has gotten used to that, start to ease off. When you say 'krap', motion your tongue up as though it's going to make the 'r', but fall just shy of the alveolar ridge (hard bumpy bit after you pass the top of your teeth heading for the roof of your mouth). Do the same with your ล's that don't appear as the secondary consonant in clusters like ปลา- Most Thai teachers would be screaming bloody murder to have that suggested to a student insisting to learners of Thai that all Thais say ปลลลลา ...

Priming your tongue like this is good as it keeps it still in the action - and makes the transition easier if you find yourself in the company of people that you have to be particularly rrrrroly with.

Yup - that's right - just like in Spanish.

As for responding to your question that followed... I must refrain - as I think that the forum moderators would count it as soliciting. Just referencing a blog entry in the past has seen posts deleted and been cause for stern warnings to be sent my way.