Will Thailand Ever Make Any Progress On Anything

[livinthailandos]

In my observation don't seem like thailands political problems or southern problems will ever get better, few months on still have protesters in bangkok and 4 years on still have bombing in the south. I don't see thailand as ever progressing to anything ever further than stuck in a 3rd world or african country status, have always had blood shet here over 30 years and corruption so high I dont see anything changing. Thailand is more like the land of fake smiles and grang jai. The airport is joke, look likes it never got finished. common sense and logic dont apply here. TV and papers are to focused on one useless man that isn't even a real story. my question has there been progress in anything here in thailand or in the future?

[PhilHarries]

Thailand will make progress and will get there but at their own pace. Anybody going to live in Thailand hoping to see western style "progress" at a western rate is in the wrong place. We can, and often do, moan about it but that's the way it is. So feel free to sound off about it, we all do from time to time, but just remember you are no more than a dog howling at the moon. The howling makes you feel better but the moon carries on just the way it always has done.

<deit : btw Thailand will almost crtainly get there but "there" may not be where you wanted it to be>

Edited November 15, 2008 by PhilHarries

[Boater]

nope

[GENeIsUS]

Phil, that could be said about ANY far eastern country.

[livinthailandos]

Thailand will make progress and will get there but at their own pace. ( YES BUT AT WHAT PACE? DOES IT TAKE 40 YEARS TO GET 10 YEARS WORTH OF PROGRESS?

Anybody going to live in Thailand hoping to see western style "progress" at a western rate is in the wrong place. ( VERY TRUE ) ( dont expect western progress but any sign of any progress would be nice!!!! )

[Scott]

It's actually a very interesting topic. The country has mystified me for many, many years. About the time I think I figured it out, everything changes! Guess that's one of the reasons I frustratingly love the place. Several problems come to mind rather quickly.

1. Corruption. Can't say enough about it and it's effect on every aspect of life.

2. Culture. The country is actually much more diverse than the gov't would like to admit--from Isaan to the Malay Muslim, it's not one culture. This causes an underlying level of stress. The gov't then puts a lot of effort (especially in education) to convince everyone 'we are the same.'

3. Patronage. This is actually part of both 1 and 2. The system where leaders are held in such high regard, whether they are village head men or much further up the food chain, allows them to make decisions for others that aren't always well thought out. Italso means those 'in charge' have a duty to collect money to take care of their patrons.

So, basically, it's 2 steps forward and 1 step back.

[Jingthing]

It's been said before, but why not say it again.

A lot of us expats here have a personal self interest in the rate of development in Thailand.

It is in many of our best interests if the progress is

-- not overly fast and efficient (if we wanted and/or could afford to move to Singapore or Japan, we would have)

-- that there not be a total breakdown to complete chaos, famine, civil war, you name your poison, because then of course this joint would become unlivable for us

My observation is that the country is trending more towards the latter (total breakdown) than the former (Thai-sapore).

Yes, I know many expats have Thai families and are almost Thai themselves, so their perspective would more the gone native one.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Jingthing

[GENeIsUS]

It's actually a very interesting topic. The country has mystified me for many, many years. About the time I think I figured it out, everything changes! Guess that's one of the reasons I frustratingly love the place. Several problems come to mind rather quickly.

1. Corruption. Can't say enough about it and it's effect on every aspect of life.

2. Culture. The country is actually much more diverse than the gov't would like to admit--from Isaan to the Malay Muslim, it's not one culture. This causes an underlying level of stress. The gov't then puts a lot of effort (especially in education) to convince everyone 'we are the same.'

3. Patronage. This is actually part of both 1 and 2. The system where leaders are held in such high regard, whether they are village head men or much further up the food chain, allows them to make decisions for others that aren't always well thought out. Italso means those 'in charge' have a duty to collect money to take care of their patrons.

So, basically, it's 2 steps forward and 1 step back.

I agree with all of the above, but I think you should add languages in their somewhere.

There is an Isaan language, Northern language, central language, and southern language. I'm not going to count Laos even though most of the Southeast speak more laos than Thai. All of these in a country that can be fit quite comfortably into the State of Texas. Think about India, Indonesia, and Philippines. All with their many different languages and observe how difficult progress is to be had in these countries. If you want to expand in business you must go to other areas. If you can't speak the language???

Compare it to a country with a single language and you will see the diffifence. So in answer to the question, when will we see progress, I remember the old joke about the word con being the opposite of pro. This must mean that Congress is the opposite of Progress.

[benjamat]

i think many farang are banking on thailand not progressing. if thailand did progress than young women would not be lining up for a farang husband twice their age and thrice their body weight, and many could not afford to live here.

Seems a pointless and probably insulting post. It is what it is, by the same token thai people would not be lining up to move to the UK or the US if it was the same as Thailand or the phillipines or laos or v ietnam or peurto rico or any of the other less well developed countries.

My wife is thai and 14 years younger than me, she is intelligent and educated and I do not wiegh 3 times as much as her, she is happy to live anywhere as long as she is with me and I feel the same.

[BigSnake]

I think Thailand will make progress when some of the back biting/back stabbing stop for that to happen it wil take a very strong political leader that is wanted and trusted by at least 80 percent of Thai citizens> A real healer and dealer so to speak, now now stop laughing so hard, just look at what happen in the U.S. on 4 Nov 08, not to say the new U.S. leader will be that great, but it is a doing good start, it will be tough to be any worse than W.

[patklang]

In my observation don't seem like thailands political problems or southern problems will ever get better, few months on still have protesters in bangkok and 4 years on still have bombing in the south. I don't see thailand as ever progressing to anything ever further than stuck in a 3rd world or african country status, have always had blood shet here over 30 years and corruption so high I dont see anything changing. Thailand is more like the land of fake smiles and grang jai. The airport is joke, look likes it never got finished. common sense and logic dont apply here. TV and papers are to focused on one useless man that isn't even a real story. my question has there been progress in anything here in thailand or in the future?

i think we are very lucky,and glad i didnt live in northern ireland as that went on for for many many years.i think your observations are probably with a bottle of sangsom and coke.Thailand has progressed more than many countries and bk is one of the most updated capitals in the world.

[thithi]

just get used to it....

[MiG16]

any further personal attacks or insulting remarks at others, and the poster will have their posting rights suspended. (have deleted a couple of posts)

the OP, although negative, I believe can still generate a proper discussion without the need for anyone to get nasty. lets try to keep it an interesting exchange of views rather than derogatory general statements and assumptions about people.

ok?

cheers.

[Bangyai]

In my observation don't seem like thailands political problems or southern problems will ever get better, few months on still have protesters in bangkok and 4 years on still have bombing in the south. I don't see thailand as ever progressing to anything ever further than stuck in a 3rd world or african country status, have always had blood shet here over 30 years and corruption so high I dont see anything changing. Thailand is more like the land of fake smiles and grang jai. The airport is joke, look likes it never got finished. common sense and logic dont apply here. TV and papers are to focused on one useless man that isn't even a real story. my question has there been progress in anything here in thailand or in the future?

Well, I don't know if you can call it progress but Bangkok has changed beyond recognition to how it was 29 years ago when I first arrived here. Imagine, if you can ,a city without a single sky scraper. The highest building was the Dusit Thani hotel !!! Fact !!

The Robinsons on Silom was a wooden school. Laht Prao was in the sticks and was a relatively new road !! There were very few families with a television. No mobile phones, no computers, no internet. Manageable traffic and little pollution. Many women walked the city streets in sarongs. People smiled and meant it !!! Once out of the city, the rural people had almost zero knowledge of politics and little interest. The villages were mostly without electricity or running water. On my first trip to a rural village virtualy the whole place turned out to gawk at the first falang they had ever seen. They wanted to touch my skin and feel my hair to see what it was like.

In short, I would say the progress here has been at breakneck speed but it just doesn't look that way if your first trip here was less than 15 years ago. Thailand has come a long way from a standing start. As for now....things will happen soon enough and afterwards it might be that we wished they hadn't. More haste...less speed.

[wasabi]

It already has progressed the problem is how far it is lagging the rest of Asia, with the exception of Laos and Cambodia. It seems for every 4 steps China, Vietnam and Singapore make Thailand makes 1. I think their rate of falling behind may increase due to the phenomenon of the first mover advantage and the rich getting richer while the poor get poorer. The corruption is the problem. Squandering Thailand's rich natural resources and strategic location and strong relationship with Europe and the US.

It's a shame I personally would love to see Thailand progress way faster and wouldn't mind paying 2 rather than 1 dollar for a plate of noodles for this to happen.

[exexpat]

Interesting article. From what it sounds like, Bangkok was nicer 29 years ago. Amazingly, I know a Thai-Filipino here and he says that Filipinos have a stronger work ethic than Thais. Thais according to him "don't take work as seriously". It seems that every Asian group has a stronger work ethic than Thais.

I think the real problem stems from the fact that work is not valued here. The prostitution industry has a knock effect on the general populace, who are deeply jealous of them making easy money. This destroys incentives to work hard, for which many nations have counterweights, but here its "sabai-sabai" so there is nothing to keep people on their toes. It holds the entire nation back. Add to that infighting over corruption scandals, and work ethic is completely gone. There is no survival mode here because Thailand is a rice superpower, and everyone is fed, this is not Cambodia with war torn shattered economy. The "Thai dream" involves marrying the rich, not work.

The "Filipino dream" involves working hard to enjoy higher overseas wages, especially medical field. This is a key difference.

Vietnam, China and likewise booming nations are moving fast to "catch up" with the West. The financial crisis will be a deep freeze, so they will slow down considerably. It remains to be seen whether they will too lose their work ethic or not. However, no country in Asia parties like Thais. Thais don't seem to understand the concept of diminishing returns and self-restraint. Other Asians have far more self-restraint when it comes to enjoyable activities.

Despite obvious economic growth, Thailand and Asia's real problems stem from one fact. Lack of personal responsibility. When everyone is out for themselves, chaos reigns. Yes, Thailand has grown economically in 29 years, but is probably more chaotic than ever. This is similar to what is happening in US and probably China today, both nations are mass chaos makers. For any nation to advance, people need to get on the same boat and paddle the same direction and dismiss their petty differences for a bigger cause. If not, social divisions and the chaos that comes with it grows.

Edited November 15, 2008 by exexpat

[kimincm]

In my observation don't seem like thailands political problems or southern problems will ever get better, few months on still have protesters in bangkok and 4 years on still have bombing in the south. I don't see thailand as ever progressing to anything ever further than stuck in a 3rd world or african country status, have always had blood shet here over 30 years and corruption so high I dont see anything changing. Thailand is more like the land of fake smiles and grang jai. The airport is joke, look likes it never got finished. common sense and logic dont apply here. TV and papers are to focused on one useless man that isn't even a real story. my question has there been progress in anything here in thailand or in the future?

Well, I don't know if you can call it progress but Bangkok has changed beyond recognition to how it was 29 years ago when I first arrived here. Imagine, if you can ,a city without a single sky scraper. The highest building was the Dusit Thani hotel !!! Fact !!

The Robinsons on Silom was a wooden school. Laht Prao was in the sticks and was a relatively new road !! There were very few families with a television. No mobile phones, no computers, no internet. Manageable traffic and little pollution. Many women walked the city streets in sarongs. People smiled and meant it !!! Once out of the city, the rural people had almost zero knowledge of politics and little interest. The villages were mostly without electricity or running water. On my first trip to a rural village virtualy the whole place turned out to gawk at the first falang they had ever seen. They wanted to touch my skin and feel my hair to see what it was like.

In short, I would say the progress here has been at breakneck speed but it just doesn't look that way if your first trip here was less than 15 years ago. Thailand has come a long way from a standing start. As for now....things will happen soon enough and afterwards it might be that we wished they hadn't. More haste...less speed.

Bangyai-- Your charismatic, uncorruptible saviour of LOS would have to die, because that sort of change

could never be allowed in the Hall's of Power. Nature of the beast.

livinthailandos-- "and afterwards it might be that we wished they hadn't". Wont that be too late?

Does the change you've seen excite or sadden you? I fall nearly perfectly into your 15 yr. comment,18 yr.

I was in/ out C.Mai for 4 yrs. living with my future wife's family, 1994 she comes to Oz. 1994 to 2007 she

visits LOS when family urge bites,which is quite often,which is fine by me, because I think another change

I've noticed, is we farang have in many cases have lost these family urges much to our detriment.

So I arrive back here May last year to stay after a 13 yr. absence, I notice change. Foreign commercial

interest change, example, the World famous CMai Night Bazaar, 18 yrs. back, a great stroll, today if they

build any more hotels,Burger King, McDonald's etc. etc. there won't be a Night Bazaar. In fact, I would

recommend,don't go there. Oh, the tourist numbers are down again this year, of cause they are, it's

starting to look just like home, but that's change for you. One thing I noticed that hasn't changed, the

Thai people up here are still struggling day by day with no chance of climbing out of the hole they call

life,that hasn't changed and amazingly and fortunately they haven't stopped smiling, that hasn't changed.

If you're interested, the local Government has some has plans for change in CMai.

CMai. forum "Changes to Roads"/ "Road Widening" cant remember,an absurd read.

Never mind, push on.

Somewhere I lost Bangyai's quote about a strong uncorruptible leader might be the only way out for LOS.

.

[henryalleman]

You may never forget that Thailand is still a feudal society, mixed with Confucianism and Buddhism.

Ad on this the root learning education system who make it impossible for students to think for themselves. Also the incestuous political cast who only think about their own interests is a great handicap. In every western country, political parties try to find new young politicians staff and prepare them to take over from them. Also this is not happening in Thailand, where the real power is in the hands of the military who have such economic and political power who is unthinkable in any democracy.

A Thai always confirm himself with his surrounding, he never show any sign of individualism. Just look to the cars , 95 % of all the cars are black or grey. When I drive around the country I always surprised that all the houses look almost the same. Sometimes I think that there is only one architect in Thailand. The new build shops all over Thailand look exactly the same.

My wife who stay 35 years abroad feel always suffocated when she is in Thailand, simply because she can't speak freely as she get used to it in Europe. Because an open conversation is just impossible in Thailand, you must always be cautious not to offend people, and of the many taboos in society, even with her on sisters, brothers and children she can not have an open minded conversation.

Thai people are not learned to think for themselves, and they feel comfortable to do so, because its easy and you never have doubts.

That's why the changes in Thailand will be slow in fact very slow. My grandsons who are University students and all others of that age in my Thai family think exactly like their grand grand parents. And the few who are not, feel frustrated because they are not allowed to express their ideas. One of them studied a few years abroad, and he know the difference. He said once he ask the professor the fatal question WHY YOU THINK ITS MEANING THIS, WHY IT CAN NOT MEANING THAT, (in an lecture about an modern sculpture). The answer was staggering, BECAUSE THE TEXT BOOK SAY IT. He never asked a question again. My Grandson study political science. I asked him what he thought about the Iraq war and Bush. His answer: we don't learn about it in University so I have no opinion about it.

The same answer I get from my other grandson who study architecture, when I was asking about his idea about a building problem. And those are really no exemptions as I found out in my many talks with young people all over Thailand. I only listen, never give comments about it because its will only make them feel uncomfortable(I follow the Thai mentality when I'm here)

Its seems that the only goal of University students is getting their paper and not really interested in real learning and find out new solutions.

We as farangs have not a real idea how introvert Thai people really are, because that's how you have to be if you like to survive in this kind of society.

How Many of you ever had an meaningful open minded conversation with different point of view and given arguments by both sides. And I don't mean about Football, cars or your Mia Noi.

That's why we think that Thailand seems to be modernising, but only on the surface but there is no changing in the society since the last 500 years, and that's why they will not make a real progress because deep inside Thai people don't like changes at all. Just look the farmers, they still use the old ways, and are still mostly poor. While in western countries farming became an high tech industry, with farmers who are more and more managers with an university degree.

And the reasons why, I mentioned in my first sentence.

Some people mention how modernised BKK is in the last 30 years. My foot 30 years ago BKK was an nice town to live in. Now is a polluted town with 24 hours traffic jam. Most European capitals make great efforts to keep traffic out and create traffic free shopping zones where its great to stroll. But Thailand decided to create more large roads and junctions, who make the inner city almost unfit to live in;Just look to Chaeng Wattana, 15 years ago a nice lane with trees , now its have almost 24 hours traffic jam, no trees left. Modernising a town is more than building sky scrapers(most of them almost empty) and shopping malls. But its creating an pleasant environment for his inhabitants

They talking about building an nuclear power plant, but the electricity cables are still hanging in open air instead of putting under the ground. That's why the constant power interruption if there is a little bit storm. And than I not mention the way its hanging like leafs in the wind.

They talking about an High Speed train, but they still use an antique narrow-gauge railway with most of the time only one track. Where trains have a speed of 60k.

I have no doubt that some will cal this Thailand bashing, but I care about Thailand and his people that's why I feel sad about the things I see and experience.

[PeaceBlondie]

livinginthailandos, welcome to ThaiVisa. I see this may be your first opening post. I did not notice that you told us how long you have been here, etc., but some of us who have been here a mere five or ten years may find your analysis overly simplistic. Yes, the problems in the south - about which I know virtually nothing - are at least a century old, reminding me of Northern Ireland and southern Mexico. But the Thais' inability to solve the problem may stem from their refusal to allow diversity, and that says a lot.

As for politics and corruption, it stinks. But the title is about progress, and how do we define it? This is a modern, industrialized country. With roads, trains, cars, electricity, mobile phones, computers, cars, TV, tc. There are still remote villages without these features, but increasingly less. Refering to Thailand as 3rd world, and comparing it to some war-torn African country, strikes me as pure nonsense, but you are welcome to your opinion.

Culture. Thainess. Education - don't get me started. That has not changed much, and that is holding the country back from becoming Texas or the British Midlands, thank God. Last night's funeral in Bangkok was one more reminder of how, thankfully, Thailand still has two feet back in the past, revering their tradition and history whilst arriving in a stretch limousine. Bless them all.

This is a great country. I even like the warts, if they are not herpes.

[jbowman1993]

livinginthailandos, welcome to ThaiVisa. I see this may be your first opening post. I did not notice that you told us how long you have been here, etc., but some of us who have been here a mere five or ten years may find your analysis overly simplistic. Yes, the problems in the south - about which I know virtually nothing - are at least a century old, reminding me of Northern Ireland and southern Mexico. But the Thais' inability to solve the problem may stem from their refusal to allow diversity, and that says a lot.

As for politics and corruption, it stinks. But the title is about progress, and how do we define it? This is a modern, industrialized country. With roads, trains, cars, electricity, mobile phones, computers, cars, TV, tc. There are still remote villages without these features, but increasingly less. Refering to Thailand as 3rd world, and comparing it to some war-torn African country, strikes me as pure nonsense, but you are welcome to your opinion.

Culture. Thainess. Education - don't get me started. That has not changed much, and that is holding the country back from becoming Texas or the British Midlands, thank God. Last night's funeral in Bangkok was one more reminder of how, thankfully, Thailand still has two feet back in the past, revering their tradition and history whilst arriving in a stretch limousine. Bless them all.

This is a great country. I even like the warts, if they are not herpes.

Seconded!

[Who, me ?]

livinginthailandos, welcome to ThaiVisa. I see this may be your first opening post. I did not notice that you told us how long you have been here, etc., but some of us who have been here a mere five or ten years may find your analysis overly simplistic. Yes, the problems in the south - about which I know virtually nothing - are at least a century old, reminding me of Northern Ireland and southern Mexico. But the Thais' inability to solve the problem may stem from their refusal to allow diversity, and that says a lot.

As for politics and corruption, it stinks. But the title is about progress, and how do we define it? This is a modern, industrialized country. With roads, trains, cars, electricity, mobile phones, computers, cars, TV, tc. There are still remote villages without these features, but increasingly less. Refering to Thailand as 3rd world, and comparing it to some war-torn African country, strikes me as pure nonsense, but you are welcome to your opinion.

Culture. Thainess. Education - don't get me started. That has not changed much, and that is holding the country back from becoming Texas or the British Midlands, thank God. Last night's funeral in Bangkok was one more reminder of how, thankfully, Thailand still has two feet back in the past, revering their tradition and history whilst arriving in a stretch limousine. Bless them all.

This is a great country. I even like the warts, if they are not herpes.

Seconded!

same here !

[phetaroi]

Well, I don't know if you can call it progress but Bangkok has changed beyond recognition to how it was 29 years ago when I first arrived here. Imagine, if you can ,a city without a single sky scraper. The highest building was the Dusit Thani hotel !!! Fact !!

The Robinsons on Silom was a wooden school. Laht Prao was in the sticks and was a relatively new road !! There were very few families with a television. No mobile phones, no computers, no internet. Manageable traffic and little pollution. Many women walked the city streets in sarongs. People smiled and meant it !!! Once out of the city, the rural people had almost zero knowledge of politics and little interest. The villages were mostly without electricity or running water. On my first trip to a rural village virtualy the whole place turned out to gawk at the first falang they had ever seen. They wanted to touch my skin and feel my hair to see what it was like.

In short, I would say the progress here has been at breakneck speed but it just doesn't look that way if your first trip here was less than 15 years ago. Thailand has come a long way from a standing start. As for now....things will happen soon enough and afterwards it might be that we wished they hadn't. More haste...less speed.

I have to agree with you. I began my almost annual visits to Thailand in 1985, and within the next few months I expect to be living in Bangkok on a retirement visa.

I wish I could go back to the late 1980s and remember all that I noticed, but a few things have stuck in my mind. Believe it or not, I think pollution, particularly of klongs and rivers, has improved substantially. No, it's not what it should be, but I remember when almost every klong was just filled with trash. When I first arrived there was no mass transit, other than buses. Now there is a first rate (and ever-expanding) Sky Train and subway system. There is a new sense of reserving green space and just all-around cleaning up.

Bangkok is a much more modern city than Washington, D.C., for example (I live in the Virginia burbs), or Baltimore, or Richmond, or almost any other city on the east coast of the U.S.

When I hear the naysayers about things improving in Thailand, perhaps they are comparing it to how things are in the West. But, Thailand is not the west. If it were, I doubt any of us would choose it as a place to visit or live.

Let me pose a question. I sense a MAJOR change in Thai attitudes regarding one principle of Thai life -- "mai pben rai". For example, I was in Thailand just a couple of weeks right after the Suchinda debacle. The common response on the street was most often, to my shock, "maipben rai; it is in the past." In the current political climate it seems like the concept of "mai pben rai" is dead. What do you think? And, is it for the better?

[PhilHarries]

How do we define progress? Is it merely by shiny skyscrapers, big roads, flash cars etc or do we look deeper into society? Okay most villages now have electricity so they have their televisions, schools can have computers, life can go on more consistantly after sundown. More people have motorised transport so have become a more mobile workforce. But this is judging Thailand's progress through western eyes. How has Thai society adapted to the sudden progress into the 20th century? In my view it hasn't adapted very well at all hence the social problems they are facing now. Progress is far more than steel and concrete, it is about how the society progresses to deal with the new evolving issues it is presented with. Too much too fast is almost worse than too little.

Bangyai, your description of Bangkok 29 years ago brings tears to my eyes and I wish I was there but we cannot freeze frame a society's development just to suit or own vision of utopia (not that I'm suggesting that was the intent of you post). I am currently involved in major infrastructure projects in central Viet Nam. I see beautiful rural villages nestling amongst rice fields, mountains and forests that won't be there ten years time. I would like to preserve them just as they are but a nation has it's right to develope how it pleases.

[mc2]

i agree with the point of other posters,

1. corruption

2. lack of personal responsibility

3. IMO the patronage system is a big problem , hard to stop it though.

4. education .

[jts-khorat]

As for politics and corruption, it stinks. But the title is about progress, and how do we define it? This is a modern, industrialized country. With roads, trains, cars, electricity, mobile phones, computers, cars, TV, tc. There are still remote villages without these features, but increasingly less. Refering to Thailand as 3rd world, and comparing it to some war-torn African country, strikes me as pure nonsense, but you are welcome to your opinion.

I could not agree more with this paragraph; politically Thailand might not have developed very far, but looking at the bickering about the US and the UK that flames up every singly time there is something remotely political mentioned, maybe that is not such a bad thing. Many of the changes do also happen beyond the surface, as the Thais are very good smiling at you and prtending that everything is as it was ever before.

From an infrastructure standpoint, Thailand is developing with a reckless speed; environmental degradation is a nice keyword here. As I came to Thailand a decade ago, Bangkok was already an unlivable polluted place and breathing was only possible because the 1997 crash had wiped out momentarily a lot of the traffic.

Phuket seemed quaint with nice beaches and a relaxed lifestyle in comparison: the whole island had around 2,000 phone landlines and having a phone was a social achievement. Now Phuket is the perfect example of not development, but over-development -- funny I thought the same already years ago and they are still cramming more hotels and developments on the island by the day.

Half of Patong's Soi Bangla is by now replaced by Starbucks, MacDonalds and shoe shops, the rest rather an amusement spectacle for gawking tourists so stingy that they walk around with water bottles in their hands (not that replacing Soi Bangla is inherently bad, but with what it is replaced makes me get bile in my mouth). If you count the number of fast food outlets or super-malls as development, Phuket definitely made the jump into the 21st century. So maybe you should come and live here: tyou can eat and shop just as back home, to exactly the same prices.

As other posters here wrote: in reality, if you do not come here for work or as a tourist just scratching the shiny surface without real interest what lies below, you would not want Thailand to develop much further or you would be already living in Singapore or Hong Kong.

If you would live here on a more permanent basis (and did not just come for the girls), you would look for a different lifestyle and more quietitude compared to home and this entails the rather 'backwards'-looking components of the country here.

I would make the bold statement that the majority of members of Thai Visa are actually against progress as the western world defines it and could live indefinitely with the status quo here just fine. We do not worry about progress, we actually do worry that things could become worse.

[5tash]

I agree with all of the above, but I think you should add languages in their somewhere.

There is an Isaan language, Northern language, central language, and southern language. I'm not going to count Laos even though most of the Southeast speak more laos than Thai. All of these in a country that can be fit quite comfortably into the State of Texas. Think about India, Indonesia, and Philippines. All with their many different languages and observe how difficult progress is to be had in these countries. If you want to expand in business you must go to other areas. If you can't speak the language???

Compare it to a country with a single language and you will see the diffifence. So in answer to the question, when will we see progress, I remember the old joke about the word con being the opposite of pro. This must mean that Congress is the opposite of Progress.

Standard Thai is the national language of Thailand. It is taught in schools all over the country and is the language heard on television and radio, therefore understood by 99% of the population (1% being hilltribe minorities, who've haven't studied or had any exposure to television or radio).

I don't think language is a factor.

[andyc2006]

i agree with the point of other posters,

1. corruption

2. lack of personal responsibility

3. IMO the patronage system is a big problem , hard to stop it though.

4. education .

Yup, 4 key factors that'll help keep Thailand safe for us, so that we won't need to find a new country for another 100 years or so.

Let's not forget "face," that results in Thais taking criticism (even meant constructively) as an act of war instead of an opportunity to improve oneself.

And on your note 1, rule of law -- the stability of laws, and the ability to rely on them being fairly applied -- accounts for much of the strengths in Western societies. It's more than just not having (as much) corruption, though corruption prevents rule of law.

If I wanted it any other way, I'd be in Japan, Singapore or Hong Kong. Or back in the USA.

[andyc2006]

How do we define progress?

What's the sound of one hand clapping? Or as a US Supreme Court justice said on pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

Thailand obviously isn't Zimbabwe or Palestine or Nicaragua or India.

But neither is it Singapore or Japan or Hong Kong. Think of the question is being similar to saying, "when will Thailand be more like Singapore, Japan or Hong Kong?" (Hopefully never!)

Another way to look at it... "When will Thais qualify for the USA's Visa Waiver Program?" (or the equivalent in other Western countries)

When Western officials no longer think the country's citizens are desperate to immigrate to the West simply to get a job, that's one sign of "progress," relative to other countries (it's always possible that the Western economies suffer so badly that there are no jobs worth immigrating for...).

[PhilHarries]

Another way to look at it... "When will Thais qualify for the USA's Visa Waiver Program?" (or the equivalent in other Western countries)

When Western officials no longer think the country's citizens are desperate to immigrate to the West simply to get a job, that's one sign of "progress," relative to other countries (it's always possible that the Western economies suffer so badly that there are no jobs worth immigrating for...).

While I agree with you to a point how does that relate to western countries actively encouraging immigrants from less developed nations to do work their own nationals will not do? This covers a broad spectrum from the Filippinos without which the UK National Health Service would collapse to Mexican, and others, legal immigrants working in occupations in the USA no American would do. Virtually every nation on Earth that considers itself developed or developing exploits those who are less well off financially be it via legal immigrant status or by turning a blind eye to the illegals.

I don't see this as a measure of progress but rather a measure of perceived financial superiority the moral and ethical position of which is an entirely different topic.

Progress is taken as the transition from a perceived lower state to that of a higher one.

Take the bushman living in the Namib desert, he has no television and no use for electricity. His life is tough but he gets on with it and lives it to the full according to his perceptions. He has no aspirations beyond getting the next meal and then the next one after that. He is dependant on nobody save maybe his fellow tribe members with whom he forms a symbiotic relationship.

Contrast him with the merchant banker who has every technological gadget money can buy. His life may be tough as competition makes it so thus he lives it to the full according to his perceptions but he continually aspires to the next step up the corporate ladder. Despite all that he is totally dependant for everything in his life from the garbage man through the power station worker to his shrink.

In these extremes progress takes on a whole new meaning. For the bushman it could mean a spade to dig for water but for the banker it would likely mean the latest plasma screen TV.

Sure we cannot all live like the bushman but equally we cannot all live like the merchant banker. What is almost certain to happen in the future is a balance between progress by nations up from the lower state balanced by a degree of regression down from the higher ones.

We need to question our perception of progress and assess the social, and other, costs before embarking on a particular course.

[Bangyai]

How do we define progress? Is it merely by shiny skyscrapers, big roads, flash cars etc or do we look deeper into society? Okay most villages now have electricity so they have their televisions, schools can have computers, life can go on more consistantly after sundown. More people have motorised transport so have become a more mobile workforce. But this is judging Thailand's progress through western eyes. How has Thai society adapted to the sudden progress into the 20th century? In my view it hasn't adapted very well at all hence the social problems they are facing now. Progress is far more than steel and concrete, it is about how the society progresses to deal with the new evolving issues it is presented with. Too much too fast is almost worse than too little.

Bangyai, your description of Bangkok 29 years ago brings tears to my eyes and I wish I was there but we cannot freeze frame a society's development just to suit or own vision of utopia (not that I'm suggesting that was the intent of you post). I am currently involved in major infrastructure projects in central Viet Nam. I see beautiful rural villages nestling amongst rice fields, mountains and forests that won't be there ten years time. I would like to preserve them just as they are but a nation has it's right to develope how it pleases.

I agree with what you say. A nation has a right to develop as it pleases and we have to take the rough with the smooth. Material progress is easy to notice but social change is not always obvious. Sadly, when materialism becomes the benchmark of progress then other considerations normally end up in the back seat.