Buddhism And The Current Problems At The International Airport

[khaowong1]

I was at a Wat yesterday, 11-29, and as I was talking to the Chao Wat, the abbot, he got a phone call from someone at the airport. The person was worried that he might be causing himself some problems with the temple by demonstrating. The abbot kind of laughed at him and suggested to him that he might ordain instead and in that way both wish loving kindness for everyone and in another way, quit worring about what's happening in the secular world, as the abbot put it, nothing is permanent, all things cease in the end. There are no ends to the problems of the world as long as the peoples of the world only think about their own happiness and possessions. One problem may end today but another one starts up tomorrow.

[fabianfred]

I'm sure most of these protesters are jobless people on-hire....and they do not realise that they are being paid to ruin their own country...by those who are just trying to get back at an enemy and cannot admit they lost the election....

I think anyone involved is creating bad karma for themselves. There is corruption in every government (power corrupts remember) but none of the regimes has been damaging to the people like the Burmese junta is....

'Violence is attractive to those of low morals" ...Albert Einstein

low morals being ...not practising the five precepts.

[camerata]

I haven't seen any mention of Chamlong's "Dharma Army" in the current protests, whereas it figured prominently in the 2006 campaign to oust Thaksin. Perhaps its members feel the potential for bad kamma is much greater now.

[Xangsamhua]

I haven't seen any mention of Chamlong's "Dharma Army" in the current protests, whereas it figured prominently in the 2006 campaign to oust Thaksin. Perhaps its members feel the potential for bad kamma is much greater now.

They're still there, or they were recently. I won't make a political statement about kamma.

[sabaijai]

I'm sure most of these protesters are jobless people on-hire....and they do not realise that they are being paid to ruin their own country...by those who are just trying to get back at an enemy and cannot admit they lost the election....

I think anyone involved is creating bad karma for themselves. There is corruption in every government (power corrupts remember) but none of the regimes has been damaging to the people like the Burmese junta is....

'Violence is attractive to those of low morals" ...Albert Einstein

low morals being ...not practising the five precepts.

Without personally taking a poll, I think that's a pretty large presumption to make. Let's try to keep politics out of the Buddhism subforum.

[chutai]

I haven't seen any mention of Chamlong's "Dharma Army" in the current protests, whereas it figured prominently in the 2006 campaign to oust Thaksin. Perhaps its members feel the potential for bad kamma is much greater now.

I also wondered about this. I was slightly encouraged at that time to see Thervadan monks becoming socially engaged. But I in no way see that the present campaign creates value or is in line with Right Conduct - for it has already created suffering. It seems to me that the conditions for bad karma have already been sown, I'm sad to say. The so called "Dharma Army" are acting wisely if it is the case that they are not engaged in these present protests.

Although I did catch a snippet from the radio that PAD had some spiritual backing from Buddhist ?

[chutai]

low morals being ...not practising the five precepts

Ethics are borne from practice and not from external guidelines to conduct. Just as compassion is not a consequence of strength , but rather that strength becomes manifest through compassion.

It's the heart that's important.

[fabianfred]

low morals being ...not practising the five precepts

Ethics are borne from practice and not from external guidelines to conduct. Just as compassion is not a consequence of strength , but rather that strength becomes manifest through compassion.

It's the heart that's important.

I was not intending to come across as preaching that anyone who doesn't keep the five precepts is immoral.....

They are very hard to keep...and in fact only an Arahant can keep them perfectly.... but we should strive to keep them as best we can...if we have nirvana as our goal

[chutai]

low morals being ...not practising the five precepts

Ethics are borne from practice and not from external guidelines to conduct. Just as compassion is not a consequence of strength , but rather that strength becomes manifest through compassion.

It's the heart that's important.

I was not intending to come across as preaching that anyone who doesn't keep the five precepts is immoral.....

They are very hard to keep...and in fact only an Arahant can keep them perfectly.... but we should strive to keep them as best we can...if we have nirvana as our goal

Was the Noble Eightfold Path taught as being commandments to be adhered to, or merely guidelines to conduct that would reduce the potential of inflicting suffering ?

I myself am not a Theravadan, but my understanding is that to reach the status of becoming an arahant reflected the notion that it was impossible to become a Buddha in the early Elder School teachings ? Whereas we would say that Buddhahood is achievable in this lifetime, as everyone has the latent potential to become Buddha within them.

[fabianfred]

Was the Noble Eightfold Path taught as being commandments to be adhered to, or merely guidelines to conduct that would reduce the potential of inflicting suffering ?

I myself am not a Theravadan, but my understanding is that to reach the status of becoming an arahant reflected the notion that it was impossible to become a Buddha in the early Elder School teachings ? Whereas we would say that Buddhahood is achievable in this lifetime, as everyone has the latent potential to become Buddha within them.

If you become an arahant then you are in the state of nirvana..just as the buddhas are.

To become a buddha you must make the determination in the presence of a buddha (rare as they are, and be in a position where you are very close to attaining the state of sotapanna, but you forgoe this quick route to nirvana, in order to become a buddha at some time in the far distant future..... a very bold undertaking.

Although we have the Possibility to become a buddha, it is so difficult a goal that few attain it....even well known monks who had made the determination then recanted and went on to attain Arahant, had nothing to be ashamed of...(Ajarn Mun was one of these)

this notion that we all have buddha nature and will eventually become buddhas is a bit far fetched.IMHO

Nirvana is attainable in this lifetime.....but the path is extremely difficult...better to aim for sotapanna and be safe from rebirth in the lower realms...to eventually attain nirvana within no more than seven lives

To attain buddhahood within a single life time is impossible........

and once a Buddha has taught the dhamma and gone on to parinirvana ...his task is done

Edited December 2, 2008 by fabianfred

[chutai]

this notion that we all have buddha nature and will eventually become buddhas is a bit far fetched.IMHO

Then, leaving aside the historic formulation of Arahant or Boddhisattva if it comes to that. If all beings don't have an innate Buddha nature and we cannot ourselves attain Buddhahood, then what are we left with ? I'm sorry but this form of deitising Buddhism as something unatainable and as being outside of ourselves contradicts all Dharma.

[camerata]

In Theravada Buddhism, the goal is nibbana (arahantship), preferably in this life. The Theravada definition of a Buddha is one who attains nibbana/arahantship without the help of Dhamma teachings, i.e. he rediscovers the Dhamma himself. So it is totally impossible for you or I to become a Buddha, because the teachings are available to us. I can become an arahant. The Buddha was an arahant. But I cannot become a Buddha. This is rather different from the Mahayana system.

From the Theravada perspective, a new Buddha can only arise when all the teachings have been lost. Ajahn Man is the only Theravadin I've ever heard of who initially wanted to be a Buddha (aeons in the future when the teachings have been lost). But he changed his mind. Sakyamuni didn't encourage anyone to become a Buddha in the Pali Canon, AFAIK.

Edited December 2, 2008 by camerata

[chutai]

So it is totally impossible for you or I to become a Buddha, because the teachings are available to us. I can become an arahant. The Buddha was an arahant. But I cannot become a Buddha. This is rather different from the Mahayana system.

It is indeed different. And I realise how indepted with a sense of gratitude that we who take faith in the Lotus Sutra are.

But to explain the basic understanding and on which grounds we can attain Buddhahood.

There are three groups of voice-hearer disciples amongst those that you mention. Shakyamuni's voice-hearer disciples, whose enlightenment is prophesied in the theoretical teaching (first half) of the Lotus Sutra.

There, Shakyamuni teaches that the sole purpose of the Buddha's advent is to expound the one great Buddha vehicle, or the teaching that leads all people to Buddhahood.

He explains that the three vehicles, or the teachings directed at voice-hearers, cause-awakened ones, and bodhisattvas, set forth in earlier sutras, are not ends in themselves but only means to lead people to the supreme vehicle of Buddhahood. This concept is called the "replacement of the three vehicles with the one vehicle."

Shakyamuni Buddha's disciples are divided into three groups according to their capacity to understand that teaching: those of superior, intermediate, and inferior capacity. A description of the three groups follows.:

(1) Voice-hearers of superior capacity: Shariputra. He alone understands the above concept (Budhahood) immediately upon hearing the Buddha preach concerning "the true aspect of all phenomena" in the "Expedient Means" (second) chapter of the Lotus Sutra. The "Simile and Parable" (third) chapter predicts his enlightenment.

(2) Voice-hearers of intermediate capacity: Maudgalyayana, Katyayana, Mahakashyapa, and Subhuti. They understand the Buddha's message through the parable of the three carts and the burning house related in the "Simile and Parable" chapter. Their enlightenment is predicted in the "Bestowal of Prophecy" (sixth) chapter.

(3) Voice-hearers of inferior capacity: Purna, Ananda, Rahula, and others. They finally understand the Buddha's message by hearing about their relationship with Shakyamuni beginning major world system dust particle kalpas in the past, as explained in the "Parable of the Phantom City" (seventh) chapter. Purna's enlightenment and that of twelve hundred arhats are prophesied in the "Five Hundred Disciples" (eighth) chapter, and the enlightenment of Ananda and Rahula and two thousand voice-hearers, in the "Prophecies" (ninth) chapter.

Thus, the cycle of Shakyamuni's preaching, the disciples' understanding, and Shakyamuni's prediction of their enlightenment is repeated three times and is accordingly called the three cycles of preaching. Those who received the prophecy of enlightenment through the three cycles of the Buddha's preaching are called the three groups of voice-hearers.

You are sure to attain enlightenment.

[fabianfred]

Not forgetting that this is the Thai Buddhism forum...and therefore leans towards Theravada buddhism..

all these things which you seem to favour....Buddhahood, the Lotus sutra etc...are mahayana, so your interpretations of the Scriptures may be different to ours..

We'll promise not to try and convert you....if you'll promise not to try and convert us

[sabaijai]

all these things which you seem to favour....Buddhahood, the Lotus sutra etc...are mahayana, so your interpretations of the Scriptures may be different to ours..

Yes, and specifically a Nichiren interpretation of Mahayana, where chanting the Japanese title of the Lotus Sutra is the way forward.

But we're a bit off the topic of Buddhism and the airport.

[chutai]

all these things which you seem to favour....Buddhahood, the Lotus sutra etc...are mahayana, so your interpretations of the Scriptures may be different to ours..

Yes, and specifically a Nichiren interpretation of Mahayana, where chanting the Japanese title of the Lotus Sutra is the way forward.

But we're a bit off the topic of Buddhism and the airport.

But don't Tibetan Buddhists chant very similar mantra, but in Sanskrit rather than ancient Chinese ? Although Nam-myoho-renge-kyo ("I devote myself to the wonderful Law of the Lotus" **) might have a more complex meaning than Aum Mani Padme Hum both, nevertheless, have the same function.

However, it's a pity to my mind that the yellow shirted "protesters" at the airport obviously weren't amongst those of the, at very least, 500,000 other khon Thai whose lives are being transformed by chanting the daimoku of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

** When deconstructed, each of the five syllables of the essential phrase have far more profound meanings.

[Bangyai]

Reading all this has reminded me what I found so attractive about zen buddhism when I was a lot younger.

[chutai]

Reading all this has reminded me what I found so attractive about zen buddhism when I was a lot younger.

I too used to carry a copy of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones around with me back in the 60's almost as if it were a bible. It was my first introduction to Buddhism.

[Bangyai]

Reading all this has reminded me what I found so attractive about zen buddhism when I was a lot younger.

I too used to carry a copy of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones around with me back in the 60's almost as if it were a bible. It was my first introduction to Buddhism.

Excellent book. After I read it I chucked all my Docter Suzuki, Christmas Humphreys etc out the window. Haven't looked at it in a while but the stories are all fresh in my memory. No theory but straight for the something or other in an oblique kind of way. Blink and you missed it.......sort of

[RLAretired]

On 11/30/2008 at 12:53 AM, khaowong1 said:

The abbot kind of laughed at him and suggested to him that he might ordain instead and ... quit worring about what's happening in the secular world, as the abbot put it, nothing is permanent, all things cease in the end.

 

Very neat explanation of "Buddhist mind".  Thank you, @khaowong1

[fusion58]

On 12/2/2008 at 1:38 PM, chutai said:

Then, leaving aside the historic formulation of Arahant or Boddhisattva if it comes to that. If all beings don't have an innate Buddha nature and we cannot ourselves attain Buddhahood, then what are we left with ? I'm sorry but this form of deitising Buddhism as something unatainable and as being outside of ourselves contradicts all Dharma.

 

Quite right, and such notions only underscore the limitations of the Hinayana.

[Crossy]

Continuing a thread from 2008?

 

If someone can give me a really good reason to re-open I will, but until then thread closed.