P A D -bkk Protesters Aim To ‘re-educate’ Rural Thais

[grandpops]

What we should be doing is educating these people, as unlike many countries in the west, most of them don't really learn anything from school due to the lack of good system and government support. How would you expect them to make the right decisions?

I agree that those attending even the highest thai learning institutions are incapable of making the right decisions (according to my Godly thinking) therefore nobody shall have a vote and we (I) the army (General Whoever) will rule instead.

So what we really need are checks and balances against the Dems.

What if their supporters were too stupid to vote? Looking at most of the banners on the sites they were using English of a lower standard than many Bar Girls that have met my friends aquaintnce!

Perhaps the PAD signs in Thai said something like, "Free buffaloes here this week" or "Follow me for look at some dirty books"

[Exenray]

Pol Pot would have been thrilled. However, comments about the great unwashed should finally shock some of the misguided "progressive" charities and unions in the west that had initially expressed sympathy to PAD. Once reports like this combined with the tales of returning stranded tourists hit the wire services and foreign TV news stations, Thailand will be seen in a very negative light.

Good work PAD and military backers. No one humiliates and denigrates the country as well as you buffoons do.

You're most probably right, however on the long run, it will be good for our country. We are trying to get rid of corruption and clearly the rurals have no knowledge or education to understand any of this, they will vote for anyone that can provide them with a little more money and some form of medical assistance.

What we should be doing is educating these people, as unlike many countries in the west, most of them don't really learn anything from school due to the lack of good system and government support. How would you expect them to make the right decisions? I understand the middle class when they want their votes to matter more, they simply know whats best for the country as a whole, they know more about whats going on outside of Thailand.

I've talked to many living in rural areas and clearly they don't know and aren't bothered with knowing (no need to as for them, their are the "more important" people are expected to do the thinking for them). Unfortunately, they are the majority in Thailand so let me ask you this: would you trust in the political decisions made by these people? Knowing that all you need is 1 filthy rich elite to pretty much brainwash them into voting for him. Would be very unfair for all of us if someone can take over the whole nation just with a bag of cash now wouldn't it?

The western concept of "Democracy" is not at all suited for Thailand, simply because people are not educated equally here and because of this hierarchy thing we have in our society. Each country should have their own unique form of governance that is dependent on the nations education, population, landscape, infrastructure, ecosystem, economy, and much much more! Democracy is definitely not the best and most heavenly form of governance, everything has pros & cons.

I haven't noticed your posts before, and I don't realy know what to say. Elements that stood out are:-

Them / us. They uneducated. They stupid. We need to educate them. They don't learn anything from school. They don't know what's best, we do. Ruralites don't know. These people can't make political decisions. They aren't suited to democracy, they're not educated enough - I am.

It's also very easy to complain about others getting free medical treatment when you are driving to Sirrirat in your BMW because you want an unsightly wart removed.

(I'm particularly disgusted at this hateful way of thinking which is oh too common among many Bangkokions and anti-Thaksinites. The mother of one of my friends has just had two operations on her eyes, and she can now see again for the first time in thirty years. She paid two hundred baht in medicines. The 20,000 plus baht costs would have been impossible for her. I'm very pleased that some of my tax money is used to medically support those less fortunate than myself.)

Your post saddens me Sir. I very much worry about the 'unique form of governance' that you'd choose to implement. I don't mean to be flippant, but coincidentally enough I watched the Killing Fields today.

Sir,

Indeed i'm a new poster but a long time reader on these forums. I somehow caved in to the pressure of making my opinions heard.

Regarding your quote, bare in mind that I have never called rurals stupid nor that they are not willing to learn anything from school... That's putting words in my mouth. Note that when i said: Most of them don't really learn anything from school", i stated that it is due to the Government's reluctance to help or perhaps allow them to do so (Did you know that most Thais still don't know that plastic takes 400 years to degrade or that its environmentally bad for that matter?). And due to that, they lack experience and knowledge in knowing all of the truth thus what do you think will make them decide whom to vote for?

It has been proven over and over again. They want their basic needs looked after, if you can give them some of it, they will vote for you without caring much about your policies. Put it this way, why don't you allow people under 18 to vote? Because they wouldn't understand each political party's views and goals right? If you were living under a bridge and they'd offer you a new warm coat each year as well as a hot meal a day if you vote for them, would you care to know that they will tax the hel_l out of the people living in homes in order to pay for that? Would you care if they cut down all the trees in order to make a skii resort or build more roads and bridges? Would you care if they built nuclear reactors on agricultural land stolen from the farmers?

Think of it that way.

Driving to Sirirat in my BMW? Did my opinion make you assume that i'm a rich Bangkokian? The current economy and what the PAD has done has seriously affected many Thais including myself, be it financially or mentally (as in stress). Buying dinner from road side food vendors to get through the month is a daily task for the last couple of months. Alot of us middle class have suffered and are going to suffer much further however if you'd ask me how I felt, i'd say i'm proud that some people are finally standing up to these corrupt people seeking to take over the country and putting a president as head of state. Things might be bad now, but in the long run, this will be good for us and will safeguard our Monarchy. If your feet was infected and that the disease is spreading slowly up your leg, would you amputate it or take medication to slow down the process that will eventually lead to your death... What would you do?

Also, you seem to be pointing out all the negatives in my post without studying the reasons underlying those comments. I have always explained myself yet those explanations seemed to have been overlooked... Why is that? Is it because my opinions are not the same as yours thus you refuse to comprehend the reasoning?

I noticed you marked out "these people" from my post but what about what i said regarding the 1 rich man? Quote:" would you trust in the political decisions made by these people? Knowing that all you need is 1 filthy rich elite to pretty much brainwash them into voting for him. Would be very unfair for all of us if someone can take over the whole nation just with a bag of cash now wouldn't it?"

Correct me if i'm wrong but you wrote Quote:"Them / us. They uneducated. They stupid. We need to educate them. They don't learn anything from school. They don't know what's best, we do. Ruralites don't know. These people can't make political decisions. They aren't suited to democracy, they're not educated enough - I am." whilst referring to me. It seems you are bothered by the fact that i categorize people? Perhaps you think that its degrading somehow and makes me arrogant? If so, what about Quote: "I'm particularly disgusted at this hateful way of thinking which is oh too common amongs many Bangkokions and anti-Thaksinites" I'm not sure but you're being categorical too no? Also, regarding that last quote of yours, please bare in mind that my words are not a "hateful way of thinking", i have never shown hatred amongst the rurals, re-read previous post, and i honestly don't think that its all too common of the "Bangkokians" to think that. Most of them feel very embarrassed by what has happened, at least on the outside...

I seek no conflict though, that is merely my point of view, but i'd rather read on constructive criticism.

[tig28]

But your continuing claims that "vote buying" invalidated the outcome of the election is not supported by the facts[/b]. If you care to check the results of the by-elections held under strict EC supervision in all areas where candidates were "carded" by the EC for such practices---you will find that (most/all --?) the "carded" candidates were confirmed and reelected---- In every case the "vote buying" had not "perverted" the outcome as is continually claimed by yourself and your friends. Why do this without any factual back up !!!

Even in red-carded and yellow-carded by-elections, violations such as vote-buying still occur. Any number of by-elections have been followed by....... by-elections ..... as the rule-breaking continued in the first by-election. I recall a by-election that was repeated 5 times before the EC was finally satisfied that the infractions were down to a tolerable level.

Hi SJ. I'm pretty certain there is a point in here somewhere .... I guess it revolves around the fact that seldom are things perfect--- you are right. But as these discussions relate to the recent Thai elections ---- and nothing along the lines you describe occurred--- I am at a bit of a loss as where you are going with this..........

The point I attempt to make --- & I target those who have no knowledge of Isaan but choose to "parrot" the inaccurate party line. . I don't want this to turn into a book --- so I shall hit but a few points ....... Starting with : Where is Isaan??

The northern regions-(9--I think)--- Chiang Mai--Chiang Rai -Sukhothai -Phayao--Nan--Utharadit---etc. etc. ----are NOT part of Isaan. Sorry--- Its true!! ...The Devils prime stronghold is not in Isaan. .Many great cities--- good learning institutes. Some excellent weather. Very smart people. Mostly a primary production area.

Big tourism destination.

The North East regions- (19--I think) --- often referred to as Isaan --- also mostly primary production area --also many cities with size and stature. Cities such as: Udon Thani (pop) 367,908 ----- Nakhon Ratchasima (pop) 204,530

Khon Kaen (pop) 145,841--- Plus another dozen of size throughout Isaan.

Whilst may be true to say that the average income and educational level is lower than that of Central Thailand/Bangkok it must be remembered that this is usual in rural areas worldwide. The large proportion of Isaans population who reside in cities must be really thrilled by the words used to describe them by those suggesting they need to be reeducated---apparently by fools like them!!! The sad and possibly most dangerous part is that some of these social lightweights are actually sincere --- not all --- others are simply political opportunists of the worst kind.

The people of these regions need to be educated-- or reeducated-- by the Bangkok elite about as much as Custer needed more Indians! Culturally.... the inverse would certainly be of much greater benefit to Thailand.

Universities ----well... yeah--we have many thanks!! I have visited six in the last 2 months ( daughter seeking one ) Many applicants from Bangkok ------ Gee..... wont they be contaminated by the "stupid"- "ignorant"- "low IQ -- Isaaneese"??-- ( To the brain-dead racists --- if I have missed any of your adjectives/adverbs-- I apologize -- I am from Isaan.) Just in case my poor attempt at ironic sarcasm has not worked --- Your bigotry disgusts me!!

Those who think the intelligent and hard working people of Isaan are so stupid as to actually "sell their vote" for 200 Bt. simply have not got a clue!! Most of these same rural people would give you 200Bt. if you asked for it!! Money is just not that important (apart from the necessities to live). These posters seem to imagine that 200Bt. is a large amount of money --- just because the region is a bit less wealthy than elsewhere in Thailand --- in these minds 200Bt becomes a kings ransom. They are are deluded. Its about the value of 2Kg of beef or pork.

Would you "sell your vote" for about the equivalent of one days laborers pay ??? NO --- I would not --- you would not --- and I assure you that the people of the north and north east are just as smart as you and I. Repeat: equally smart.

Before the USUAL SUSPECTS go right off their brain (singular) --- I want to confirm one of their claims --- money is paid by the political parties to every voter they can locate---

But guys --- no voter "sells" his/her vote ----- they vote for whichever candidate they prefer. The money cannot change their vote. By the way ---those paying the VOTER neither request nor expect that the payment shall alter the vote. That is not the purpose of paying the money to the ordinary voter. Incidentally --- lets pretend that it was--- you pay me to vote for you---I agree and then go off to cast my secret vote. I can detect a problem here --- can you??

In ending SJ--- this is the primary reason that the results of the by-elections are not different to the previous contaminated results.

Please note:     

Any and all forms of corruption are one of the MAJOR and very real problems damaging this country. One can but hope that the seemingly universal acceptance of corruption at all levels can be corrected ---- for the benefit of Thailand

[henryalleman]

many people give very bad comments on the plan of PAD to re-educate people upcountry.

I admit that Re-education is very bad chosen word.

And nobody can deny that re-education has a bad connotation from events in the past.

Bud try to teach the upcountry people some political awareness is not a bad idea at all. In fact its should be dun in the past. because I firmly believe if it was dun, Thaksin and the PPP would be not be popular at all.

Take for instance the so called free loans for 3 years. How Many farmers lost their paddy fields and houses because they where not able to pay that so called free loan back.

At this moment farmers in Isan protest against Arabs who buy up their land. they should realise that its thaksin who is responsible for that. Maybe the people in Isan and North will start to ask if its an co-incidence that Thaksin finds a save haven in an Arab country, and sold his football club to another Arab. How it is possible that the great patriot went to an neighbouring country whose is involved in an armed border incident with his own country to stir up the people and the political scene in Thailand.

just ask them how much debt they had when Thaksin came to power and how much their debt is know. And then explain how much Baht Thaksin had before he came to power and how many billions of baht he have now.

very simple questions but did they ever think about it?

just ask the people upcountry to start to think about this.

You can also ask them why their beloved leader proclaim that the protesters should obey the law, but himself did run away from the same law. Why he did'nt face the music like a man.

Make them understand by many other examples that Thaksin is only try to come back to power to regain his billions. Try to make them understand that vote buying is sign of weakness, because why they need to buy vote when they are really have an interest in the wellbeing of the people. The moment they try to buy your vote they are hiding something.

If the PAD is clever and a real non political movement they will not go preaching upcountry but try to let the people to think for themselves, without make propaganda for any political party.

[henryalleman]

I'd love for you to meet my brother in law... He works as an engineer in Bangkok and has a university degree. His parents and three sisters worked tirelessly to put him through school. My sisters in law work as a business owner and postal manager and one takes classes to assure better chances of promotion. My wife and her sister both attended English classes, to open doors for employment.

Here, right here - the best argument against this so-called "class divide". It doesn't exist. People are free to move up and become middle classes or elites, and many millions have gone that way.

Neither Chamlong nor Sondhi are any kind of "elites".

Thaksin was self-made billionaire.

Chuan before him had a very humble background in some of the least developed provinces in the South. And hes still an humble man, when he left politics they offer him a house. He answered I stay in this rented house and I'm very happy in it, I see no reason why I should move. BTW all former PM's from his party where never involved in any corruption or vote buying. And what is his party? yes........ Prachathipad.

Chavalit and Banharn before him had nothing to show in terms of being "elite" either.

Surayud and Suchinda were basically nobodies, and so were Sarit and Plaek Pibulsongram before them.

The notion that only elites rule this country and the "plebs" are kept in check by class divide is a complete load of <deleted>.

That's the kind of education that is needed in Isan, not "Thaksin is the only one who cares" propaganda.

.. and tell him he's too dumb to vote.

I would just remind you that no one is going to lose a right to vote. No one.

[henryalleman]

I'd love for you to meet my brother in law... He works as an engineer in Bangkok and has a university degree. His parents and three sisters worked tirelessly to put him through school. My sisters in law work as a business owner and postal manager and one takes classes to assure better chances of promotion. My wife and her sister both attended English classes, to open doors for employment.

Here, right here - the best argument against this so-called "class divide". It doesn't exist. People are free to move up and become middle classes or elites, and many millions have gone that way.

Neither Chamlong nor Sondhi are any kind of "elites".

Thaksin was self-made billionaire.

Chuan before him had a very humble background in some of the least developed provinces in the South.

Chavalit and Banharn before him had nothing to show in terms of being "elite" either.

Surayud and Suchinda were basically nobodies, and so were Sarit and Plaek Pibulsongram before them.

The notion that only elites rule this country and the "plebs" are kept in check by class divide is a complete load of <deleted>.

That's the kind of education that is needed in Isan, not "Thaksin is the only one who cares" propaganda.

.. and tell him he's too dumb to vote.

I would just remind you that no one is going to lose a right to vote. No one.

So why do my family, or anyone else in their village need "re-education"? To be reborn in Sondhi's image? Are you going to come to the village and point out the "stupid people"? Who's job will that be? Will there be an intelligence line of demarcation? Where shall it be placed?

And please don't even try to push your "new politics" drivel on me or my family. We are

intelligent enough to see it for what it is.

And because your family is intelligent enough I'm sure they did not vote Thaksin.

[henryalleman]

I have been to the rural areas of Thailand many times and have stayed in my GF village in Nakon Sawan, Nakon Sawan is pretty poor..the people out there are not stupid or uneducated, they have a decent educational system out there for their education to the high school level..they are by no way dumber than these PAD shits that think they are so fking sophesticated..these bastards are an embarrassment to the whole country...ppp may be corrupt but these people are not the answer.

I presume you mean that the province of nakhon Sawan is rather poor. On the other hand the town of Nakhon Sawan is not poor at all. Certainly not by Thai standards. Its a vibrant town full of business activity. Almost 24/7. In fact is already since decades a commercial center.

Maybe because the majority in the town are Sino/Thai.

Next time you visit NKS just go 5 PM to Nakhon Sawan Park. Than you can see the real Thai life style. At 2 am you go to the Fresh market near the Chapaya river, you can hardly drive your car because the whole sales with fresch fish and vegetables unpack their goods.

And most of all go there on Chinese New-Year and see the parade and the evening festivity's. Its life time experience. And probably you will not even see 5 farang.

Sorry I know its , but NKS is my second home town, and I realy feel at home there there.

[younghusband]

It's quite obvious that there is an ugly class divide in Thailand.Here is an article from yesterday's Guardian which makes that point -and others- very well.I have previously described the PAD leadership as quasi-fascist.It's now quite clear that reputable commentators believe it to be of the full blown variety.

SHUFFLING TOWARDS FASCISM

Thailand has in a sense been colonised by its own middle class, many of whom live like colonial settlers. Mithran Somasundrum guardian.co.uk, Wednesday December 3 2008 12.30 GMT

Thailand's main airport is now re-opening, having been blocked by the PAD (People's Alliance for Democracy, or People Against Democracy, to put it more accurately), at an estimated cost of 1bn baht ($28m) a day to the Thai tourist industry. Airports are supposed to be high security areas, but not here, not if you have enough people, enough weapons and the right backing (which is the army and, to a greater or lesser extent, the conservative forces behind the army). Sunday's attempt to send in the police ended up with the cops getting beaten back and having their tyres slashed.

The police were largely resistant to using force, after their previous attempt to clear Government House with tear gas led to the death of a protester (highly explosive Chinese teargas canisters were to apparently to blame). Meanwhile, the Thai Chamber of Commerce suggested businesses refuse to pay their taxes until the government got the airport open. So the police were basically damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

Politics in Thailand has in the past functioned via relatively weak coalition governments deferring to the holy trinity of the army, the bureaucracy and the monarchy. This changed with Thaksin, who became popular enough with the rural poor to achieve a large majority for his party (TRT). Able to push through any law he wanted, he deferred to no one, and by putting his people into all of the top positions within reach (the army, the legislature, etc), set about turning himself into a Thai version of Singapore's Lee Kwan Yew. He was the self-styled "CEO of the Nation". (Note the implication of that title – the Thai citizens are his employees?) He ran a war on drugs that reduced the amount of amphetamine use in the country at the cost, it has been alleged, of very many police executions, often of the innocent, to achieve the quotas the police had been set.

He attacked press freedom, built Suvanaphumi Airport, the Skytrain, the underground, introduced cheap healthcare for the poor, and made sure all of his businesses did very well. (When he visited heads of state, it sometimes wasn't clear whether he was doing the country's business or Shincorp's.)

Against a background of unease (largely middle-class) over the way Thaksin had centralised power, the protests of PAD began. From the start, they tried to ally themselves with the monarchy in the eyes of the people – for example, wearing yellow, the king's colour. It is not clear how much this support was actually reciprocated. When the PAD protester was killed by the teargas canister, the queen paid for her funeral, attended, and described the woman as a "defender of the monarchy".

Thaksin's reply to PAD's initial protests was to hold an election, which he inevitably won. There was some vote-buying by the TRT, and by everyone else, as there always is, but overall the election underlined his safety.

However, appointing his people to the top jobs in the army was a step too far. Hence the coup.

When the post-coup elections were eventually held (with Thaksin holed up in England), they were won by a new party (the PPP) consisting mostly of ex-TRT MPs. The leader, Samak, was accused of taking his orders from Thaksin. Samak has now gone, having been found guilty of a conflict of interest (the conflict being the fact that he was paid for presenting a TV cookery show – count on a Thai court to keep a sense of perspective) to be replaced by Somchai, who, just for good measure, is Thaksin's brother-in-law. Somchai has now stepped down after the PPP was disolved by the Thai courts. Meanwhile, the PPP MPs left eligible by the courts have formed the Peuea Thai party, and are expected to form the same coalitions PPP did. This coalition will chose the next prime minister, and therefore leaves open the possibility of the protests starting all over again.

It's fairly clear that to win an election, you have to be allied to Thaksin in the mind of the people, whether or not you are following the man's actual instructions. The party of the holy trinity – the Democrats – led by Oxford-educated Abhisit is seen as an urban elite, out of touch with the concerns of the rural poor. Plus, over the last months, it has been fatally compromised by its closeness to PAD.

Maj-Gen Chamlong Srimuang, one of PAD's core leaders, responded to this electoral lock-out by proposing a "new politics", in which only 30% of the house is elected and the other 70% appointed by the great and good. The rationale is that the uneducated poor need to be protected from themselves. It will no longer matter if they vote for corrupt politicians: they will take what they are given.

Meanwhile, just to add another element into the mix, the leader of PAD, a media mogul called Sondhi Limthongkul, is gradually starting to believe in his own culthood. Having convinced himself Thaksin was using Cambodian black magic from his mansion in Surrey, Sondhi performed a protecting ceremony involving placing used tampons around a statue of King Chulalongkorn. This is the man who shut down Thailand.

One of the first things you are sure to be told, in this least nationalistic of countries, is that Thailand has never been colonised. But look closer. Thailand has, in a sense, been colonised by its own middle class, many of whom live in this country like colonial settlers. As with all colonisers, they see the true centres of culture and education as being elsewhere (the US, Britain, etc). They send their children to school abroad; they try to look as western as possible (white = attractive, brown = unattractive). They have the coloniser's exasperation and disdain for the natives, who are treated with paternal benevolence provided they know their place. Poverty in this setting is an ongoing problem; it is not to be solved but is to remain ongoing, since good works provide the middle classes with their validation: moments of up-country, genuine "Thai-ness", before air-conditioned cars return them to their shopping malls.

To read the English-language Thai press is to appreciate the full depths of this disdain. From an article in the Nation (October 14 2008, before the airport takeover), written by Thanong Khantong, the Nation's editor, in favour of PAD's protests: "I don't see Thailand backtracking against the democratic process ... It is a joke to believe that the rural voters love or have a better understanding of democracy than the Bangkok middle class ... The foreign media and foreign experts must stop distorting Thai politics with their convenient definition of democracy." From earlier in the article: "A country can survive without democracy but it can't survive without law" ... "The politicians are the main problem and a liability in our democracy."

The last two quotes are what I mean by fascism, since I don't know what else you'd call it.

It is not possible to have contempt for democracy without first having contempt for people, since democracy is, after all, meant to deliver the people's will. Likewise, contempt for people, or at least for a significant section of a country's population, will eventually lead to a corroding of democracy. That corrosion is occurring now, and, here, at this moment in time, is what contempt gets you – a ring of used tampons around a statue and a shuttered-up economy. And a feeling, growing among many – the poor, the dismissed, the unnoticed – that rights taken from them will never be returned.

[henryalleman]

Nothing is very pretty,

but the alternative is not even up to nasty,

it slides quickly down to abysmal.

Animatic, you wrote in another post (which I can't locate right now) something to the effect that you feel it right to go in the same direction as PAD while not sharing all their goals - do correct me if I'm misrepresenting what you said in any material way.

That being the case (and because you appear to be the thinker/philosopher among the pro-PAD zealots here), I would remind you that history is littered with examples of those moderates who hitched a ride with those "going in the same direction" - and then couldn't get off.

For myself, I don't need to check out the track-record of General Pallop Pinmanee or summon up images of other "re-educations" (Khmer Rouge, Red Guards etc) to be more than a little perturbed by what I read in the PAD leader's paper that Plus recommended as the "horse's mouth".

I've mentioned before that I find the notion that a weakened/discredited Thaksin could now come back and re-assume power really difficult to credit. Assume, just for argument's sake, that he can and does; just how long do you think the military would leave him there? Yet this is the "boogey man" argument that you reach for every time to justify most (all?) the agenda of PAD and their not-so-hidden-hand feudal backers.

On the positive side, I can maybe see one good thing coming from this mess. Corruption (in many of its forms, anyway) is now way up there in the consciousness of many more Thai people than before. Maybe, just maybe, because of this catharsis the next election will be that significant bit cleaner and more Thai people will take seriously the "say no to vote-buying" TV and print campaign that runs before elections here - and realise that the 100/200 baht they can get from candidates works out to be a high price to pay for the new road to their village getting only half-built or the new school costing twice what it should.............. and all the myriad examples of higher-level corruption you can cite.

If that proved to be the case, even I might think the current mess and turmoil could turn out to have been worthwhile - just. But dropping power firmly into the hands of PAD & Co with their agenda - to me that looks more and more like tipping out the baby with the bath water.

Like many of the PAD haters you show clear ill will by constantly suggesting that the PAD is a political party. As educated people like I hope you all are you know the difference between an political movement and a political party. So please I urge you to stop to pretend that the PAD is an political party. You can disagree with them, but this is no reason to spread disinformation.

The same go's for the 70/30 proposal the PAD rejected it already.

[henryalleman]

Is there anyone who doesn't think that if the "PPP" are ordered disbanded by the courts, that they won't simply regroup as the "QQQ" party? And if necessary, as the "RRR" party later? So the next time, it won't be Thaksin's brother-in-law as the PM, it might be his cousin, or his second cousin removed, or perhaps a good friend? And if the "word" is put out that this is the "regrouping" of TRT then they won't win the next election?

Seems almost Iraqi to me, whereby different sections of the country refuse to be ruled by people from the other sections.

Czechoslovakia comes to mind as another example.

Under just what circumstances do you expect PAD to be satisfied? Do you really think they will give up the airports on December 3rd? Isn't the feeling of "power" just too great a temptation to do that? Wouldn't it be "prudent" to hold the airports through the next election, just to make sure "our" party gets in, which is sure to happen if no "vote-buying" happens?

Thailand appears to be stuck in a political cycle that will take a lot of skill to break away from....

kenk3z

Its must be a real dissapointment for you that the demonstrators left the the airport, and did not cause any damage, and not yet 24 hours later the arplaines fly in again.

[henryalleman]

Thank god the majority of thais religion is buddhism.can you imagine if it was 50/50 buddhism and muslim.this would be like yugoslavia.

There will be no Buddhist left alive in Thailand.

[Plus]

YH, it's just another example of extremely poor journalism.

Thaksin didn't build the Skytrain, just to show that the writer has very little knowledge about this country.

And the nonsense about Thailand being colonised by middle class who send their kids to schools abroad - yet another point to show that the writer knows absolutely nothing about the country and middle classes. It was all written and researched from a bar stool somewhere in Sathorn, I guess.

Armed with ignorance he goes on to pontificate on class divides.

And the title - it has the word fascism in it. Great, anything in the content to support that apart from alleged "disdain"? No, nothing, just a sexy headline.

Just what crap people pass as journalism these days?!?

[henryalleman]

The reason so many Thais are cautious about becoming a full democracy, is because they believe that Thailand was becoming an illiberal democracy under Thaksin.

If they can understand and rationalise this, then they deserve to have a vote

I am not talking about whether someone deserve to vote or not. What I am trying to say is that if a country introduces democracy without having strong institutions in place that secures liberty, these institutions tend to be loose their footing under democracy (this is a very simplified statement)

One country that became a full democracy too quickly was Germany. This resulted in a democratically elected leader named Adolph Hitler. Did Germans deserve to vote in the 1930's or not?

Awwww---- here we go again ----- WRONG !!!! .... HITLER was never elected to ANY position in Germany-----

In the presidential election held on March 13, 1932, there were four candidates: the incumbent, Field Marshall Paul von Hindenburg, Hitler, and two minor candidates, Ernst Thaelmann and Theodore Duesterberg. The results were:

Hindenburg 49.6 percent

Hitler 30.1 percent

Thaelmann 13.2 percent

Duesterberg 6.8 percent

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, almost 70 percent of the German people voted against Hitler, causing his supporter Joseph Goebbels, who would later become Hitler's minister of propaganda, to lament in his journal, "We're beaten; terrible outlook. Party circles badly depressed and dejected."

Since Hindenberg had not received a majority of the vote, however, a runoff election had to be held among the top three vote-getters. On April 19, 1932, the runoff results were:

Hindenburg 53.0 percent

Hitler 36.8 percent

Thaelmann 10.2 percent

Thus, even though Hitler's vote total had risen, he still had been decisively rejected by the German people.

Hitler and his fellow members of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party, who were determined to bring down the republic and establish dictatorial rule in Germany, did everything they could to create chaos in the streets, including initiating political violence and murder. The situation got so bad that martial law was proclaimed in Berlin. This only partial so. The first riots where started by the communists who like to create an Sovjet republic. During 2 or 3 years there where very heavey street fights between the communits, thats was one of th reasons thet the SA was formed. This riots where not only in Berlin.

Political deadlocks in the Reichstag soon brought a new election, this one in November 6, 1932. In that election, the Nazis lost two million votes and 34 seats.

Attempting to remedy the chaos and the deadlocks, Hindenburg fired Papen and appointed an army general named Kurt von Schleicher as the new German chancellor. Unable to secure a majority coalition in the Reichstag, however, Schleicher finally tendered his resignation to Hindenburg, 57 days after he had been appointed. At the moment that Herman Goring became chairman of the Reichstag he took the MP's hostage, and took over the Reichstag by force using the SA.

On January 30, 1933, President Hindenburg appointed Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany. Although the National Socialists never captured more than 37 percent of the national vote, and even though they still held a minority of cabinet posts and fewer than 50 percent of the seats in the Reichstag, Hitler and the Nazis set out to to consolidate their power. With Hitler as chancellor, that proved to be a fairly easy task.

FROM: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by William Shirer

Also at the risk of belaboring the obvious ---- does any of the last 4 paragraphs seem familiar ????

[henryalleman]

The reason so many Thais are cautious about becoming a full democracy, is because they believe that Thailand was becoming an illiberal democracy under Thaksin.

If they can understand and rationalise this, then they deserve to have a vote

I am not talking about whether someone deserve to vote or not. What I am trying to say is that if a country introduces democracy without having strong institutions in place that secures liberty, these institutions tend to be loose their footing under democracy (this is a very simplified statement)

One country that became a full democracy too quickly was Germany. This resulted in a democratically elected leader named Adolph Hitler. Did Germans deserve to vote in the 1930's or not?

Awwww---- here we go again ----- WRONG !!!! .... HITLER was never elected to ANY position in Germany-----

Also at the risk of belaboring the obvious ---- does any of the last 4 paragraphs seem familiar ????

My mistake...Hitler did not get elected directly ...but I would still argue that Hitler was a product of democracy.

Link: How democracy produced a monster - International Herald Tribune

I read all the books of Ian Kershaw but hes wrong. this is of topice thats why I will not go further on the matter. Germany never had an democracy till 1946

[Steve2UK]

Nothing is very pretty,

but the alternative is not even up to nasty,

it slides quickly down to abysmal.

Animatic, you wrote in another post (which I can't locate right now) something to the effect that you feel it right to go in the same direction as PAD while not sharing all their goals - do correct me if I'm misrepresenting what you said in any material way.

That being the case (and because you appear to be the thinker/philosopher among the pro-PAD zealots here), I would remind you that history is littered with examples of those moderates who hitched a ride with those "going in the same direction" - and then couldn't get off.

For myself, I don't need to check out the track-record of General Pallop Pinmanee or summon up images of other "re-educations" (Khmer Rouge, Red Guards etc) to be more than a little perturbed by what I read in the PAD leader's paper that Plus recommended as the "horse's mouth".

I've mentioned before that I find the notion that a weakened/discredited Thaksin could now come back and re-assume power really difficult to credit. Assume, just for argument's sake, that he can and does; just how long do you think the military would leave him there? Yet this is the "boogey man" argument that you reach for every time to justify most (all?) the agenda of PAD and their not-so-hidden-hand feudal backers.

On the positive side, I can maybe see one good thing coming from this mess. Corruption (in many of its forms, anyway) is now way up there in the consciousness of many more Thai people than before. Maybe, just maybe, because of this catharsis the next election will be that significant bit cleaner and more Thai people will take seriously the "say no to vote-buying" TV and print campaign that runs before elections here - and realise that the 100/200 baht they can get from candidates works out to be a high price to pay for the new road to their village getting only half-built or the new school costing twice what it should.............. and all the myriad examples of higher-level corruption you can cite.

If that proved to be the case, even I might think the current mess and turmoil could turn out to have been worthwhile - just. But dropping power firmly into the hands of PAD & Co with their agenda - to me that looks more and more like tipping out the baby with the bath water.

Like many of the PAD haters you show clear ill will by constantly suggesting that the PAD is a political party. As educated people like I hope you all are you know the difference between an political movement and a political party. So please I urge you to stop to pretend that the PAD is an political party. You can disagree with them, but this is no reason to spread disinformation.

The same go's for the 70/30 proposal the PAD rejected it already.

To state the blindingly obvious (well - IMO obvious to any objective thinker), to question or disagree with PAD policies/proposals is not to "hate" them. I may be in a minority, but I still hold the belief that disagreeing with an idea does not automatically lead to hating the the person/people who have the idea.

Please point out where in the above post or in any of my other posts I am "suggesting that the PAD is a political party" - let alone constantly.

"The same go's for the 70/30 proposal the PAD rejected it already" - I already asked the same question yesterday in the "PPP dissolved" thread:

"First I've heard of this - anyone confirm? And when?". No answer yet; so, again - please direct me to where it can be confirmed.

[henryalleman]

to blame the present or last 2 or 3 governments is only partly correct as ALL of the past governments are to be blamed.

That's exactly the problem of Thailand. The ruling elites PREVENTED proper education for the rural poor

LaoPo - who were the ruling elites for the past ten twenty years?

When was the last blue blood Bangkokian in power in this country?

The last one was Kukrit Pramoi.

"Make up your minds, people" line. Hey, guess what - they're individuals with shades and differences of thought.

I don't see shades - they are coming from comlpletely opposite sides.

With Tig I think it was just a misunderstanding.

YH keeps plugging the same "vote buying doesn't matter" propaganda over and over again. Yeah, right there's no money involved in Thai politics, who would have thought? It's all policies and ideology.

Original lunacy by Giles, copyrighted.

[younghusband]

YH, it's just another example of extremely poor journalism.

Thaksin didn't build the Skytrain, just to show that the writer has very little knowledge about this country.

And the nonsense about Thailand being colonised by middle class who send their kids to schools abroad - yet another point to show that the writer knows absolutely nothing about the country and middle classes. It was all written and researched from a bar stool somewhere in Sathorn, I guess.

Armed with ignorance he goes on to pontificate on class divides.

And the title - it has the word fascism in it. Great, anything in the content to support that apart from alleged "disdain"? No, nothing, just a sexy headline.

Just what crap people pass as journalism these days?!?

I was wondering what line you would take this time.....lefty rubbish, in the pay of the Lord of Misrule,serves "nibbles" at Thaksin's soirees,isn't a proper journalist etc etc.Turns out to be "knows nothing about the country".Don't react..I'm just pulling your chain.

But you are half right.On re reading some of the emphasis is a little off though he does make some reasonable points.Like it or not for those who understand the origins and history of fascist movements -and I do- the PAD movement looks to be a classic case.Also in a weird way it sometimes takes an outsider to touch on some fundamental truths.There is in Thai society a tendency for the perceived socially high ranked to put their inferiors in their place, often in a subtle way that foreigners might not notice.I'm not really thinking about peasants here but the rebuffs received by the aspiring lower middle class.Some of my better connected Thai friends have told me Thaksin's problems are at least in part to do with his pushy and nouveax riche origins.

All a bit of a joke really since -apart from the aristos- almost all their relatively recent ancestors were Swatow or similar coolies slaving away in the ricefields.

Obviously middle class don't all send their kids to posh US and UK schools.Is there an Australia/NZ version of posh? Suppose there must be.But it's odd how influential say in the Democratic Party is that tiny minority.

[henryalleman]

Do you actually believe this diatribe, or have you got so focussed and stuck in your one-sided argument that such comments self eminate?

I'd suggest that your / the Plebs Against Democracy's presumption that people that don't vote 'your way' are stupid and in need of re-education is somewhat flawed.

By ' dont vote your way', you must mean ' taking money for votes', as that's the issue here?

Some people are selling their votes, and yes those people should or be excluded or re-educated.

Seems fair to me.

So, you believe that the PPP crowd buy votes and are thus corrupt - I agree, it's wrong in my viewpoint too.

You also believe that the Dems don't?

The Prachthipad party was never accused of corruption or vote buying. their last PM Chuang is know all over Thailand as an corruption free PM and never involved in it. Maybe that's why he still live in a rented house.

That the PAD actually want democracy? That they are somehow purer and better than the other side? That the Dems deals with the PAD and the army are somehow democratic?

I spent a couple of very interesting hours in a museum, not so far from the constitution monument, today. It is very clear who the PAD are and how the group of army / elites / other has controlled this country since the 30's. Thaksin was bad, in my opinion, but the masses started to be really involved in politics for the first time. - You want the original group to 're-educate' them out of politics again... very sad...

But, unlike you and your ilk, I respect other people's right to a differing viewpoint, and I don't feel the need to re-educate them to my viewpoint.

The upside is; once the democracy genie is out of the bottle it cannot be put back in. Thus, even though it will take time, and may be very unpleasant in the process, the PAD can never actually win (all they can do is keep their little rich group in control of the money and power for a littlle while longer).

[henryalleman]

Oh those misterious elites, they are always lurking somewhere in the shadows, unnamed, unnoticed. Difficult to pinpoint, and anyone caught out in the open can immediately disassossiate himself from them.

The simple, undeniable fact is that people at the top of political power ARE elites, too. And people at the top of political and economic power for most of the recent history here were NOT blue blooded descendants of aristocrats, but self made, ambitious individuals who achieved their position due to their hard work and dedication, from Chuan to Thaksin and back to Chavalit and Banharn. Thai Chinese who control most of the economy rose to their position in the space of one or two generations, too.

That's what Thanong has been trying to tell you - being born a member of a certain class doesn't not preclude one from reaching the elite status here.

There is PLENTY of upward movement, there are so many success stories that talking about class struggle doesn't make any sense. You've got abilities and ambitions - you will get anything you desire and deserve. Nobody is holding you back.

Surayud was a son of a dead communist, for christsakes, and he rose to the position of the Supreme Commander and a Privy Councilor. He couldn't have any worse "leg up" in this country and there are vere few positions higher than that.

May I point out to you that Thaksin is coming from an upper-class family In Chiang Mai who had a factory who produce Thai silk.

[samgrowth]

Thank god the majority of thais religion is buddhism.can you imagine if it was 50/50 buddhism and muslim.this would be like yugoslavia.

There will be no Buddhist left alive in Thailand.

I think this discussion should stop here.

[henryalleman]

Oh those misterious elites, they are always lurking somewhere in the shadows, unnamed, unnoticed. Difficult to pinpoint, and anyone caught out in the open can immediately disassossiate himself from them.

The simple, undeniable fact is that people at the top of political power ARE elites, too. And people at the top of political and economic power for most of the recent history here were NOT blue blooded descendants of aristocrats, but self made, ambitious individuals who achieved their position due to their hard work and dedication, from Chuan to Thaksin and back to Chavalit and Banharn. Thai Chinese who control most of the economy rose to their position in the space of one or two generations, too.

That's what Thanong has been trying to tell you - being born a member of a certain class doesn't not preclude one from reaching the elite status here.

There is PLENTY of upward movement, there are so many success stories that talking about class struggle doesn't make any sense. You've got abilities and ambitions - you will get anything you desire and deserve. Nobody is holding you back.

Surayud was a son of a dead communist, for christsakes, and he rose to the position of the Supreme Commander and a Privy Councilor. He couldn't have any worse "leg up" in this country and there are vere few positions higher than that.

The OP's point was that every child from rural poor's background could make it into the elite...

MY point was that a poor farmer isn't even able to send his son/daughter to university or military academy, let alone that that child is going to make it into the elite. And its also their sons who are the majority of the almost 300 000 conscripts in the army, because they don't have the money to send them to LODO.

Your example Surayud doesn't make sense since he was born into an influential -military- family, not from a rural poor farmer's. His grandfather even studied in Germany at a military academy. Hardly a poor farmer's son...

It would be interesting to learn if all the examples the OP writer mentioned are of such poor background as he's trying to believe his readers.

LaoPo

[samgrowth]

May I point out to you that Thaksin is coming from an upper-class family In Chiang Mai who had a factory who produce Thai silk.

The Jim Thompson of Chiang Mai. Sadly, Jim disappeared without a trace.

[younghusband]

I read all the books of Ian Kershaw but hes wrong.

For those members who may not have heard of Sir Ian Kershaw I add a short piece feom the Washington Post.I leave it to your judgement whether more faith should be put in the pre-eminent Third Reich historian of our times or the poster above.Best of all is to read his books, a one volume abridged -though still hefty- version of Hitler being available in Bangkok bookstores.

"As Italy fell to the Allies, and Hitler moved to crush the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, Ian Kershaw was born in Oldham, a mill town not far from the "cottonopolis" of Manchester, England. His father was a mechanic; his mother a worker in the cotton mills. But the Depression had taken a toll, and his father was unemployed, playing saxophone in a dance band as the war raged, trying to maintain what Kershaw remembers as "an extremely happy" if bookless house. By the '50s, his father had opened a small grocery shop, which he ran until his death in 1969.

The Writing Life: Ian Kershaw

Ian Kershaw: Casting Light on the Shadows

Kershaw never imagined he would be a writer. In his early teens he flirted with the notion of sports journalism but decided impulsively on academics and began to develop, "rather late in my school years," a strong and abiding interest in history.

Schooled at St. Bede's, Liverpool University and, later, Oxford, he thought he'd be a medievalist, but by his 20s he had changed course. Working closely with West German historian Martin Broszat on his "Bavaria Project," Kershaw began studying the cult of Hitler. The result was a seminal work, The "Hitler Myth": Image and Reality in the Third Reich.

Kershaw, now 65 and retired from the department of modern history at Sheffield University, is widely regarded as the world's leading expert on Adolf Hitler. His books include: Hitler: A Profile in Power; Fateful Choices; and his most recent, just out this summer, Hitler, the Germans, and the Final Solution. Six years ago, the Queen awarded him a knighthood for his steady and numerous "services to history."

"I have never thought of myself as having a 'writing career,' " he says. He considers himself first and foremost a university professor. But insofar as writing has become the focus of his work, his big break was unquestionably the appearance of his two-volume biography: Hitler: Hubris and Hitler: Nemesis.

When asked what he has learned from his immersion in Nazism, he replies that "the Third Reich shows in vivid form our terrible capacity for evil. But it is important to temper this pessimistic view of human nature with our immense capacity for good. Humanity has -- and has had throughout history -- a Janus face"

[henryalleman]

Pol Pot would have been thrilled. However, comments about the great unwashed should finally shock some of the misguided "progressive" charities and unions in the west that had initially expressed sympathy to PAD. Once reports like this combined with the tales of returning stranded tourists hit the wire services and foreign TV news stations, Thailand will be seen in a very negative light.

Good work PAD and military backers. No one humiliates and denigrates the country as well as you buffoons do.

You're most probably right, however on the long run, it will be good for our country. We are trying to get rid of corruption and clearly the rurals have no knowledge or education to understand any of this, they will vote for anyone that can provide them with a little more money and some form of medical assistance.

What we should be doing is educating these people, as unlike many countries in the west, most of them don't really learn anything from school due to the lack of good system and government support. How would you expect them to make the right decisions? I understand the middle class when they want their votes to matter more, they simply know whats best for the country as a whole, they know more about whats going on outside of Thailand.

I've talked to many living in rural areas and clearly they don't know and aren't bothered with knowing (no need to as for them, their are the "more important" people are expected to do the thinking for them). Unfortunately, they are the majority in Thailand so let me ask you this: would you trust in the political decisions made by these people? Knowing that all you need is 1 filthy rich elite to pretty much brainwash them into voting for him. Would be very unfair for all of us if someone can take over the whole nation just with a bag of cash now wouldn't it?

The western concept of "Democracy" is not at all suited for Thailand, simply because people are not educated equally here and because of this hierarchy thing we have in our society. Each country should have their own unique form of governance that is dependent on the nations education, population, landscape, infrastructure, ecosystem, economy, and much much more! Democracy is definitely not the best and most heavenly form of governance, everything has pros & cons.

This is an despicable paternalistic attitude. Its horrifying that there are still so called educated people who think like that.

[younghusband]

[quote name='henryalleman' date='2008-12-04 09:49:11' post='2382031'

May I point out to you that Thaksin is coming from an upper-class family In Chiang Mai who had a factory who produce Thai silk.

Your knowledge of the Thai class structure is as poor as your knowledge of German history.Thaksin's family was reasonably prosperous but by no possible definition was it upper class.

Even without this knowledge just look at him -the obsession with money, the vulgarity, the lack of culture : just like the lower middle class anywhere.Give me aristos and workers anytime.

Here's a subversive thought.If Thaksin was just an ordinary citizen wouldn't his class background and origins make him a prime candidate for PAD membership? Perhaps in am alternate world he'd be out there with the PAD morons waving his little hand clapper.

Edited December 4, 2008 by younghusband

[Journalist]

Its perfectly normal and altruistic to educate people, and there's nothing Orwellian or sinister about it. To start likening it to Stalin or Third Reich propaganda is pure paranoia.

Isaan people have got a lot of street-smarts, they can get with the message.

I should like to see a nationwide television advertising campaign, (perhaps funded by media mogul Sondhi) with adverts between the soaps telling people that if candidates try to stick a banknote in their pocket and ask for for their vote, then they can keep the money and still vote for who they like.

[Plus]

Thaksin would have made a great PAD leader had he been a little bit less selfish and had the country first on his list of priorities.

His "think you act new" rallying call was really galvanising back then.

[younghusband]

Its perfectly normal and altruistic to educate people, and there's nothing Orwellian or sinister about it. To start likening it to Stalin or Third Reich propaganda is pure paranoia.

Isaan people have got a lot of street-smarts, they can get with the message.

I should like to see a nationwide television advertising campaign, (perhaps funded by media mogul Sondhi) with adverts between the soaps telling people that if candidates try to stick a banknote in their pocket and ask for for their vote, then they can keep the money and still vote for who they like.

Agreed.I've mentioned it before but it's relevant.As the franchise was being extended to a near universal point (women excepted!) in Victorian Britain a politician famously said, "we must educate our masters".There are legitimate worries about the tyranny of a majority and education is the beat way to mitigate that risk.But not the crappy traditional Thai style of education.

[samgrowth]

To re-educate Thai, ASTV should be allowed to go on air via the public waveliength. Since ch 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 is already taken, ASTV will have to settle for ch 13. I hope Sondhi is not a suspicious kind of guy.

But having heard that the Kick PPP with 6 used Kotex, I don't think he would want ch 13.

Ref is here (cut & paste your self)

<URL Automatically Removed>/thailand-and-asia-news/39426-pad-fighting-evil-spirits.html

meawgyver.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/strategic-sanitary-pads/

thailandjumpedtheshark.blogspot.com/2008/11/sondhi-lim-tampax-brahmin.html

Just something to laugh about.

[Steve2UK]

I read all the books of Ian Kershaw but hes wrong.

For those members who may not have heard of Sir Ian Kershaw I add a short piece feom the Washington Post.I leave it to your judgement whether more faith should be put in the pre-eminent Third Reich historian of our times or the poster above.Best of all is to read his books, a one volume abridged -though still hefty- version of Hitler being available in Bangkok bookstores.

"As Italy fell to the Allies, and Hitler moved to crush the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, Ian Kershaw was born in Oldham, a mill town not far from the "cottonopolis" of Manchester, England. His father was a mechanic; his mother a worker in the cotton mills. But the Depression had taken a toll, and his father was unemployed, playing saxophone in a dance band as the war raged, trying to maintain what Kershaw remembers as "an extremely happy" if bookless house. By the '50s, his father had opened a small grocery shop, which he ran until his death in 1969.

The Writing Life: Ian Kershaw

Ian Kershaw: Casting Light on the Shadows

Kershaw never imagined he would be a writer. In his early teens he flirted with the notion of sports journalism but decided impulsively on academics and began to develop, "rather late in my school years," a strong and abiding interest in history.

Schooled at St. Bede's, Liverpool University and, later, Oxford, he thought he'd be a medievalist, but by his 20s he had changed course. Working closely with West German historian Martin Broszat on his "Bavaria Project," Kershaw began studying the cult of Hitler. The result was a seminal work, The "Hitler Myth": Image and Reality in the Third Reich.

Kershaw, now 65 and retired from the department of modern history at Sheffield University, is widely regarded as the world's leading expert on Adolf Hitler. His books include: Hitler: A Profile in Power; Fateful Choices; and his most recent, just out this summer, Hitler, the Germans, and the Final Solution. Six years ago, the Queen awarded him a knighthood for his steady and numerous "services to history."

"I have never thought of myself as having a 'writing career,' " he says. He considers himself first and foremost a university professor. But insofar as writing has become the focus of his work, his big break was unquestionably the appearance of his two-volume biography: Hitler: Hubris and Hitler: Nemesis.

When asked what he has learned from his immersion in Nazism, he replies that "the Third Reich shows in vivid form our terrible capacity for evil. But it is important to temper this pessimistic view of human nature with our immense capacity for good. Humanity has -- and has had throughout history -- a Janus face"

Yes, we are in danger of lurching off-topic - but it's useful to be reminded of a nicely balanced view as expressed by Kershaw in the last paragraph of the quote above. 100% agree with it. Having studied the period for some years, I'll also endorse Kershaw as one of the better-researched and more objective writers about it.

As to "Germany never had an democracy till 1946"................ So, it seems the Weimar Republic never happened?

Weimar Republic

Following World War I, the republic emerged from the German Revolution in November 1918. In 1919 a national assembly convened in the city of Weimar, where a new constitution for the German Reich was written, to be adopted on 11 August. This attempt to re-establish Germany as a liberal democracy failed with the ascent of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party in 1933. Although technically the 1919 Weimar constitution was not invalidated until after World War II, the legal measures taken by the Nazi government in February and March 1933, commonly known as Gleichschaltung, destroyed the mechanisms of a true democracy. Therefore 1933 is usually seen as the end of the Weimar Republic and as the beginning of Hitler's "Third Reich".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

Yes, I know it's only Wikipaedia - but is henryalleman seriously denying it happened?

And the same member accuses me of spreading disinformation...............