P A D -bkk Protesters Aim To ‘re-educate’ Rural Thais

[permanent_disorder]

I read all the books of Ian Kershaw but hes wrong.

har, har, remind me on two other quality entries.

you definitly have no knowledge of European history.....Please let the PAD in Thailand and the Nazis in Germany.....The movements are so different that it can't be more different.....Read some history....I don't know Kershaw.....but it seems either it is not good or you didn't understand it....

As I am born not far away from Hitlers place of birth....from child on you get in touch with informations about Hitler and NSDAP. It is simply silly to read a book about Hitler and based on that you find out that PAD and Sondhi are similar.

[Plus]

Why not present "new politics" to the masses themselves? Why don't you trust their judgement? Are you afraid that they might like it?

Why not engage in a meaningful debate about it.

So far the opponents have been screaming their lungs out without giving it any real thought.

Facts have been grossly distorted in the process and conspiracy theories presented instead.

- no one will lose a right to vote

- the great chunk of power will rest with functional representatives, not the military or bureaucrats as alleged

>>>

if "functional constituencies" idea gets any traction, there are many other ways to utilise it, like having the Senate selected that way, for example. Non-partisan Senate has been proven impossible to maintain - senators always gravitate to money and power. Why? Well, because they went to politics to pursue their own goals, they were not nominated and promoted by the people to pursue people's goals. This dichotomy is never going to work until people are brought into politics themselves rather than forced to spend their votes on any of the junk that is pushed on them by politicians.

[siam4ever]

When those in the PAD have been brought to justice for their criminal terrorist acts there will be plenty of time for political discussion. Until then, there are mad terrorists on the loose.

[Chaimai]

When those in the PAD have been brought to justice for their criminal terrorist acts there will be plenty of time for political discussion. Until then, there are mad terrorists on the loose.

Today's award for exaggeration and excessive drama

[ozinthailand]

re-educate them to become terrorists ????

[Meerkat]

Why not present "new politics" to the masses themselves? Why don't you trust their judgement? Are you afraid that they might like it?

Sure it's easy, and there's absolutely nothing stopping the PAD or any other group from doing so. All you need to do is set up a political party (the PAD may still have some of their "Mass Party" stationery left - that'd be handy!), get elected on such a policy platform and then you'll have the necessary mandate to change the constitution if you can get enough people onside. Otherwise, why should only your chosen political ideal be put to the public outside a general election? Why not communism? Why not absolute monarchism? Why not republicanism? What is so overwhelmingly special about “New Politics” that it alone deserves to be put to the vote in isolation?

Why not engage in a meaningful debate about it.

Some of us here have been debating it (and I include yourself). The press has debated it, and many in the population at large have been too – it's certainly talked about publicly both in my comfortable middle-class mooban in Bangkok and in the rural village where we weekend. Whilst the people in each place are as diverse as bankers and farmers, even the PAD supporters I've talked with are at best uneasy about what the implications of “New Politics” are. Of course you might not believe that poorer people either in the cities or the country are capable of rational political debate (at least that's the impression I got when you likened them to baboons or whatever it was on another thread – I can't find the link now), but it really isn't the case at all.

So far the opponents have been screaming their lungs out without giving it any real thought.

Actually it is the proponents of the scheme that have been screaming their lungs out over it the loudest. You might have seen them up on stage at some point over the last 200-odd days. Without any real thought? Yes I reckon that's true as well; their only thought is that anything must be better than what we've got now. It is an incorrect notion though, and you have a wide choice of borders to cross from Thailand to see other systems of government that were designed “for the good of the people”, and which in practice are anything but. That's generally the problem with reactionary knee-jerk policy.

Facts have been grossly distorted in the process and conspiracy theories presented instead.

- no one will lose a right to vote

- the great chunk of power will rest with functional representatives, not the military or bureaucrats as alleged

Seeing as New Politics seeks to enshrine in the constitution the military as the ultimate arbiters of government (ultimate after HMTK of course), then power will of course lie there, regardless of whether representatives are elected, selected, or pulled out of a magic hat. I'm struggling to think of a government anywhere which successfully combines unelected military overlords with such niceties as better representation. What use is a vote – whether it be under a geographical constituency or a functional one – if the representatives are themselves shackled under an unelected military? Reckon such a government could for instance reduce the military budget? Yeah right. It's just paying lip-service to democracy (something one might justifiably accuse Thaksin as having done as well.)

As to “no one will lose their vote” you are partially correct. However one person's voting privileges will be worth more than another's, according to which functional constituencies they are members of. That assumes of course that 100% of representatives are voted in; if some are selected (and the PAD still have not categorically denied that "New Politics" will not incorporate a certain number of selectees, just that 70% was too high), then everyone's votes are diluted and one could say power would indeed be transferred to those who do the selecting (bureaucrats?). One might argue that the present system is already skewed with the party list, but switching one bad system for another is no solution.

if "functional constituencies" idea gets any traction, there are many other ways to utilise it, like having the Senate selected that way, for example. Non-partisan Senate has been proven impossible to maintain - senators always gravitate to money and power. Why? Well, because they went to politics to pursue their own goals, they were not nominated and promoted by the people to pursue people's goals. This dichotomy is never going to work until people are brought into politics themselves rather than forced to spend their votes on any of the junk that is pushed on them by politicians.

The appointed half of the Senate is already designed to represent diverse sectors of the population. There is already an agriculture Senator; there is already a medical sector Senator; there is already a military representative. Actually there are quite a few of those, but that's no great shock now, is it? So how's that going in furthering the interests of their “constituents”? Would it be more so if they were elected rather than selected? Why should it? It's not as if geographical representatives could be accused of always acting selflessly on behalf of their constituents, so why must it be different for functional ones?

As far as spreading functional representation to the Lower House, we've already talked about this. In order to truly represent each and every sector of the population you'd need an impossibly high number of representatives. As I stated in an earlier discourse with you:

It is as crucial that a system of government be workable as it is to be representative.

Otherwise you could go down the Hong Kong route and have a ridiculously small number of sectors, which does nobody much good at all, and is of course one of the reasons why you have as many as half a million Hongkongers marching through the streets each year (peacefully though in stark contrast to either the PAD or the DAAD) in an effort to get rid of this awful system and replace it with simple, direct elections. Either way you end up with a crappy system of government, not some utopian ideal of true representation.

“Democracy” as we define it in its various forms around the world is not – by a long way – a perfect system of government. It is, however, the best compromise that political scientists have managed to come up with over the last couple of millennia. Do you really think that a bunch of tampon-wielding political agitators protesting on a stage here have managed to suddenly dream up a system of government so important, so crucial to the people that it must be put to them by itself forthwith? Pah.

[Thaddeus]

Do you really think that a bunch of tampon-wielding political agitators protesting on a stage here have managed to suddenly dream up a system of government so important, so crucial to the people that it must be put to them by itself forthwith? Pah.

Agreed with the whole piece, but that should be nominated as quote of the day.

[siam4ever]

Do you really think that a bunch of tampon-wielding political agitators protesting on a stage here have managed to suddenly dream up a system of government so important, so crucial to the people that it must be put to them by itself forthwith? Pah.

Agreed with the whole piece, but that should be nominated as quote of the day.

I say quote of the week!

[misterman21]

How to re-educate the uneducated

[Pierrot]

Couldn’t bother going through the 14 pages of this thread, but before we think of “re-educating” rural Thais, if the government just try to “educate” them, it would be a nice move.

But it wouldn’t change the election result, quite the opposite indeed.

[kennkate]

Can we expect The Publication Of

A Little Yellow Book

To rival the Red one

Rules To Live By.

Visa Rules to be Included on the last 50 pages

[LaoPo]

Discussion of MANY types of 'possible newly regenerated politics' was instigated by

The PAD's 70:30 idea. if you read the last paragraph they CLEARLY say it is a talking point

for discussion of what 'ONE idea might be' that solves some of the core issues at hand.

They NEVER say this is their 'platform for the next government'.

Just that it is only AN idea for discussion.!

Allow me to comment here Animatic.

You see, that's the problem...the proposed IDEA for a constitutional amendment was dead wrong in the first place.

It simply disgusts me and so it should for every single Farang here in Thailand who was born and raised in a real democracy...a real free country where people are PROUD to be able to vote:

1 man - 1 vote

And, I find it simply unbelievable that you support this, along with some other members, Animatic ! You, coming from the strongest nation on earth, are supporting this IDEA by the PAD and now telling us that it was just an idea....?; UNBELIEVABLE !

LaoPo

Excuse me, but you make my point for the rest of my post quite well.

It is unbelievable that I support it. Why?

I never said I supported this proposal.

You keep implying that I do...

I don't believe you should do this, but you do.

I never said I supported 70:30 I only said it was something to think about.

But some some people think that 'thinking is a bad thing if they don't like an idea'.

Reading some posts in the past I was under the impressions that you supported -although limited to some of their ideologies- the PAD. If I'm wrong please correct me.

But you did support the PAD's IDEA of THINKING/PROPOSAL about a 70:30, later 50:50 voting.

Even thinking about such a voting system by the PAD is appalling.

The idea alone to take away the vote from a Thai man/woman is a nightmare and I feel that you, together with some other members, are on the wrong path to even ''play'' for one minute with such a horrible idea.

The idea is so horrible because the one who invented this idea -Sondhi Limthongkul- places himself on a higher scale than his fellow Thai just because HE thinks he is better (educated/intelligent) than the uneducated rural poor man and woman.

And he does that because his parents were able to send him abroad to the USA for education.

In the meantime his parents staid home, eating rice on a daily basis, grown by fellow -poor- Thai who were not able to have their children educated because they were hardly able to feed their own kids because of the low prices they got for their rice since the prices were and still are controlled by the upper classes.

Are you aware that 50% of Thai labor force -18,5 Million people- work in agriculture and the average income in agriculture is -less than- Baht 3,500 per month ? Go figure. And, if you don't believe me, have a look at this chart:

Watch the blue versus the red line

Maybe you forget that it is not even so long ago that in many western countries women were not allowed to vote.....colored people in your own country were not allowed to vote....

Thailand HAS a 1 man - 1 vote system and to withdraw the democratic RIGHT from ''selected'' people is simply disgusting and that's why I find that even THINKING/CONSIDERING about such an IDEA to install a 70:30 or 50:50 governance/voting system was such a horrible and disgusting idea.

LaoPo

[Plus]

All you need to do is set up a political party

You don't need to set up a political party to present your ideas to the public. All you need is a free and inquisitive media. Something which is not welcome in this thread. And I don't understand it at all - why would our defenders of democracy want to preserve the status quo and refuse the poor access to information, even as "alternative" as ASTV

Some of us here have been debating it (and I include yourself). The press has debated it.

Certainly not English language press, and rural folks who are alleged to be the most affected don't read newspapers and rely mostly on TV. No "new politics" on NBT, afaik.

Actually it is the proponents of the scheme that have been screaming their lungs out over it the loudest. You might have seen them up on stage at some point over the last 200-odd days.

I talked about meaningful debate, with all sides expressing their opinions and offering solutions. ASTV hardly qualifies, and it doesn't reach pro-government camp at all.

Seeing as New Politics seeks to enshrine in the constitution the military as the ultimate arbiters of government (ultimate after HMTK of course), then power will of course lie there, regardless of whether representatives are elected, selected, or pulled out of a magic hat.

First of all it's not a prerequisite that the military will do the selecting. Would you relax a little if it was entrusted to the Senate, for example.

The appointed half of the Senate is already designed to represent diverse sectors of the population. There is already an agriculture Senator; there is already a medical sector Senator; there is already a military representative. Actually there are quite a few of those, but that's no great shock now, is it?

Yes, so far I can't see absolutely nothing wrong with selected part of the Senate. Why not strengthen this practice?

Don't forget that the main thrust is to clear up the politicians, they are the ones who create all the political troubles in this country.

Ok, you can say it's PAD, but look - now they want to appoint Chalerm as the PM and everybody tells them they should get lost, no one would blame PAD for taking to the streets again if they go through with this ridiculous idea.

Right from the start the "new politics" was meant to kick the likes of Chalerm out. I don't see anyone who is against this basic premise. People might not agree with PAD, but no one have thought of any better way to deal with Chalerms yet.

The idea alone to take away the vote from a Thai man/woman is a nightmare and I feel that ....

and I feel like some people will never learn even the most basic facts...

Edited December 5, 2008 by Plus

[LaoPo]

The idea alone to take away the vote from a Thai man/woman is a nightmare and I feel that ....

and I feel like some people will never learn even the most basic facts...

Maybe you would be so kind to enlighten me about what YOU think are the most basic facts (by/from the PAD I suppose) .....?

And, please, come up with facts not vague answers but I'm sure you will since you claim to know the "most basic facts"...

I'm always happy to learn new things.

LaoPo

[Plus]

The most basic fact is that no one will lose a vote.

[LaoPo]

The most basic fact is that no one will lose a vote.

Maybe lead the blind to the FACT where that is written by the PAD, ok ?

Because your word Sir, is not enough for me to believe that !

LaoPo

Edited December 5, 2008 by LaoPo

[jdinasia]

lol in the proposed New politics every one still gets to vote. period.

They just don't get to vote for every position available (like they already don't get to vote for who gets to be PM)

[LaoPo]

lol in the proposed New politics every one still gets to vote. period.

They just don't get to vote for every position available (like they already don't get to vote for who gets to be PM)

Ah, I notice that the esteemed Mr. jdinasia took the microphone for Mr. Plus.

So, if I understand you Gents correctly the voting system according to PAD's adjusted proposal (system 50:50 instead 70:30) in Thailand: The PRESENT 1 man - 1 vote voting system will NOT be touched/broken and every single vote will be as important as the other.....is that correct ?

So: if that's correct, how (since I didn't get an answer from the experts here to my earlier question) is the changed PAD formula to be implemented and to be read ?

"On 21 September, the PAD changed its formula to 100% elections, but with 50% of Parliament voted for by geographic area and another 50% voted for by occupational representatives.[47][48][49]"

from: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/bkk-Proteste...40#entry2384840

A. WHAT exactly does this mean: 50% of Parliament voted for by geographic area

B. WHAT exactly is: 50% voted for by occupational representatives

C. WHO is going to decide and implement the PAD's proposal of 50:50 (taking into consideration the PAD is a non-political party ?

I'm most curious to learn from the experts.

Oh, BTW, can you supply a link where I can read the (latest) proposed "New Politics" by the Pad ? They seem to change them now and then.

LaoPo

[jdinasia]

LaoPo --- explain to me how every single vote is currently as important as any other based upon today's system?

Take the numbers of people that voted in the last election and work it up for me

(and if you read the threads (as I know you do) --- or if you looked at the websites as I know you do, you would have seen a more recent discussion of "New Politics"

[LaoPo]

LaoPo --- explain to me how every single vote is currently as important as any other based upon today's system?

Take the numbers of people that voted in the last election and work it up for me

(and if you read the threads (as I know you do) --- or if you looked at the websites as I know you do, you would have seen a more recent discussion of "New Politics"

sigh....answering to my questions never has been your strongest side...

POINT is: the PAD is proposing to gag the voters and thus gag Thai democracy. Period.

And if you can convince me that's not true, show me the facts, not words.

You, and some others, fail to see that the PAD is a (secretly/mysteriously supported and -financially- funded) movement, meant to keep the power where it IS and not share the democratic powers and wealth distribution. Keep the majority poor. Simple PAD message.

"Representative democracy is not suitable for Thailand." : Sondhi Limthongkul

AND:

"PAD founder and media baron Sondhi Limthongkul is leading the backlash. In contrast to Thaksin, who often spoke of elevating Thailand to the ranks of the developed world, Sondhi advocates a "reasonable society" no longer burdened by debt and obsessed with "how many cars or washing machines" people own. He favors limits on foreign investment, opposes privatization of utilities and warns, "Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand."

from: http://www.newsweek.com/id/157506

You chaps better start packing the suitcases, once Mr. Sondhi and his PAD grabs great influence in the future governance...

YOU ARE BLINDED.

LaoPo

[jdinasia]

LaoPo --- explain to me how every single vote is currently as important as any other based upon today's system?

Take the numbers of people that voted in the last election and work it up for me

(and if you read the threads (as I know you do) --- or if you looked at the websites as I know you do, you would have seen a more recent discussion of "New Politics"

sigh....answering to my questions never has been your strongest side...

POINT is: the PAD is proposing to gag the voters and thus gag Thai democracy. Period.

And if you can convince me that's not true, show me the facts, not words.

You, and some others, fail to see that the PAD is a (secretly/mysteriously supported and -financially- funded) movement, meant to keep the power where it IS and not share the democratic powers and wealth distribution. Keep the majority poor. Simple PAD message.

"Representative democracy is not suitable for Thailand." : Sondhi Limthongkul

AND:

"PAD founder and media baron Sondhi Limthongkul is leading the backlash. In contrast to Thaksin, who often spoke of elevating Thailand to the ranks of the developed world, Sondhi advocates a "reasonable society" no longer burdened by debt and obsessed with "how many cars or washing machines" people own. He favors limits on foreign investment, opposes privatization of utilities and warns, "Don't impose a free trade, consumer-oriented society on Thailand."

from: http://www.newsweek.com/id/157506

You chaps better start packing the suitcases, once Mr. Sondhi and his PAD grabs great influence in the future governance...

YOU ARE BLINDED.

LaoPo

LaoPo

I am actually IN Thailand not commenting on it from abroad.

Your quotes are fabulous though ----- "is leading the backlash" -- you conveniently left out what the backlash was against.

I agree with the representative democracy comment. Many people do. When a vote is only as good as the money tucked into a voter's pocket then it isn't democracy "PERIOD"

I also agree that massive consumerism that is spoken out against in that quote and that certainly does not match up with the ideas promoted by the King.

I don't feel obligated to answer your questions since the info has already been posted right here and you have already read it and then ask questions just to be disingenuous.

As far as people here needing to pack ... Thaksin was/is the one cracking down on foreigners.

I LIKE the idea of a country that develops in its pace at its own way and doesn't try to model itself after systems that sometimes worked and sometimes did not in other places.

There are several people in this forum posting from China but talking about Democracy and Human Rights that also make me laugh

But LaoPo --- you really did avoid answering MY questions.

Is every vote in Thailand equal under the system in place right now?

[Johpa]

Couldn’t bother going through the 14 pages of this thread, but before we think of “re-educating” rural Thais, if the government just try to “educate” them, it would be a nice move.

But it wouldn’t change the election result, quite the opposite indeed.

Methinks it will be far more difficult to enlighten those who imagine they are already educated. I have found it quite difficult to convince folks a generation younger than myself that information, in and of itself, is not knowledge.

[LaoPo]

LaoPo

I am actually IN Thailand not commenting on it from abroad.

Your quotes are fabulous though ----- "is leading the backlash" -- you conveniently left out what the backlash was against.

I agree with the representative democracy comment. Many people do. When a vote is only as good as the money tucked into a voter's pocket then it isn't democracy "PERIOD"

I also agree that massive consumerism that is spoken out against in that quote and that certainly does not match up with the ideas promoted by the King.

I don't feel obligated to answer your questions since the info has already been posted right here and you have already read it and then ask questions just to be disingenuous.

As far as people here needing to pack ... Thaksin was/is the one cracking down on foreigners.

I LIKE the idea of a country that develops in its pace at its own way and doesn't try to model itself after systems that sometimes worked and sometimes did not in other places.

There are several people in this forum posting from China but talking about Democracy and Human Rights that also make me laugh

But LaoPo --- you really did avoid answering MY questions.

Is every vote in Thailand equal under the system in place right now?

I didn't known that a TV member had more rights or a better view when posting from within Thailand rather than from outside. I landed first time in LOS more than 30 years ago; and you ?

I made the mistake by answering you whilst my post was addressed to Plus; instead you chose to answer for him. You have a nasty habit speaking for others, as if those members have no voice themselves.

You don't feel obligated to answer.....don't make me laugh. You CAN'T answer because you don't know; can't tell; can't explain !

Have a nice weekend but before I go I will answer to your last question:

YES, every vote in Thailand is considered equal under the present system in place and don't come up again with the vote buying/paying system, since ALL parties are ''guilty'' of doing so, convicted or not; and, what's more: deep in your heart you know it, as well as you know that the so called PAD protesters were paid and fed.

But even you, the PAD expert, can't tell me WHO are behind the curtains paying massive amounts of money, necessary to keep the military-style organized movement called PAD running.

And you may want to answer to MY last question: will every vote under PAD's proposal be equal ?

Let me answer for you: NO.

LaoPo

[jdinasia]

LOL ... So you don't understand the current political system but you want us to believe you will understand one that is only a proposal!

I get it!

No I do not know that ALL PARTIES are paying for votes, though I do know most parties have had MEMBERS that have gotten red and yellow carded for it. Difference?? of course! one is systemic and the other is just stupid. But to talk about Democracy and accept vote-buying which is the antithesis of democracy makes a shambles out of all of your arguments.

If you want to speak to just ONE person all you need to do is click on the PM button

Does being in Thailand make a difference than NOT being in Thailand? Yes It isn't rocket science to see that!

[permanent_disorder]

...

please keep your LOLs and don't flame baseless other TV member.

don't post any sauna or beer bar gossip.

if you know anything more or anything better, everyone is welcome to share his knowledge.

but i guess i can here second LaoPo 'You CAN'T answer because you don't know; can't tell; can't explain!'

[LaoPo]

...

please keep your LOLs and don't flame baseless other TV member.

don't post any sauna or beer bar gossip.

if you know anything more or anything better, everyone is welcome to share his knowledge.

but i guess i can here second LaoPo 'You CAN'T answer because you don't know; can't tell; can't explain!'

Correct.

Not a single pro-PAD supporter even bothered to reply to my questions:

"On 21 September, the PAD changed its formula (from 70:30, LP) to 100% elections, but with 50% of Parliament voted for by geographic area and another 50% voted for by occupational representatives.[47][48][49]"

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Al...itical_ideology

A. WHAT exactly does this mean: 50% of Parliament voted for by geographic area

B. WHAT exactly is: 50% voted for by occupational representatives

C. WHO is going to decide and implement the PAD's proposal of 50:50 (taking into consideration the PAD is a non-political party) ?

I asked those questions because I genuinely do NOT know what these mysterious words by the PAD/Sondhi mean.

Member jdinasia claims the answers have been given but since I posted them.....nobody gave an answer including him. Many big words, except answers.

So, PAD experts: please explain what these words mean but if you can't, be a good sport to admit you can't answer because you don't know the meaning of them.

I'm man enough to admit that I don't know and understand what these words mean (can't read Thai); but than again, English is not my first language, so I'm not old enough yet to be taught.

LaoPo

[Thaddeus]

...

please keep your LOLs and don't flame baseless other TV member.

don't post any sauna or beer bar gossip.

if you know anything more or anything better, everyone is welcome to share his knowledge.

but i guess i can here second LaoPo 'You CAN'T answer because you don't know; can't tell; can't explain!'

Correct.

Not a single pro-PAD supporter even bothered to reply to my questions:

"On 21 September, the PAD changed its formula (from 70:30, LP) to 100% elections, but with 50% of Parliament voted for by geographic area and another 50% voted for by occupational representatives.[47][48][49]"

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Al...itical_ideology

A. WHAT exactly does this mean: 50% of Parliament voted for by geographic area

B. WHAT exactly is: 50% voted for by occupational representatives

C. WHO is going to decide and implement the PAD's proposal of 50:50 (taking into consideration the PAD is a non-political party) ?

I asked those questions because I genuinely do NOT know what these mysterious words by the PAD/Sondhi mean.

Member jdinasia claims the answers have been given but since I posted them.....nobody gave an answer including him. Many big words, except answers.

So, PAD experts: please explain what these words mean but if you can't, be a good sport to admit you can't answer because you don't know the meaning of them.

I'm man enough to admit that I don't know and understand what these words mean (can't read Thai); but than again, English is not my first language, so I'm not old enough yet to be taught.

LaoPo

They never will answer the questions LP (they know best, stay in your allocated space )

We all know the saying about democracy being the worst form of government, apart from all the others that have been tried before. Anyone who wants to challenge the 1 man 1 vote system should be able to explain why that change would benefit the country and all its people.

Something that PAD itself and the supporters of it in this thread have completely failed to do.

[LaoPo]

They never will answer the questions LP (they know best, stay in your allocated space )

We all know the saying about democracy being the worst form of government, apart from all the others that have been tried before. Anyone who wants to challenge the 1 man 1 vote system should be able to explain why that change would benefit the country and all its people.

Something that PAD itself and the supporters of it in this thread have completely failed to do.

Thank you Thaddeus, for your support.

You know, I don't mind to offer my humble apologies to anyone who can convince me of something I have been wrong about or see things from a wrong perspective.

Admitting being wrong, is something great, something to be proud of since I have learned something new again in life. But before admitting so I wish to see convincing evidence and clear objective points.

Denying, being just stubborn is not wise; is not intelligent because the only one you're fooling is yourself.

Only greater minds are able to accept that they can fail, make mistakes, see things wrong. Only dumb minds will always follow their narrow path, whether that path leads to to correct destination or not, blinded as they stay with their own ''iced'' visions.

I asked sincere and honest questions but instead of receiving intelligent and convincing answers, I am flamed, attacked and called names...don't know anything about the system, the PAD, it's founder Sondhi Limthongkul, governance or other Thailand related subjects.

I know, I am just one of the 6,6 Billion people out there who makes mistakes and who's vulnerable in sincerity. But I'm man enough to admit my wrong views if I'm pointed at real facts.

But it is hard for some to stay polite and above all, to come up with facts rather than the usual bla-bla.

LaoPo

[Dakhar]

Re-education by disenfranchisement.

Good one that.

Re-educate, would mean to educate again, after being educated..... Can anyone prove there ever was an "initial education" to begin with....

But I can see class in session now"

"Class repeat after me, I am a peasant, and always will be...."

Edited December 6, 2008 by Dakhar

[VegasVic]

"I haven't believed America(n) is a properly functioning democracy for some time" ...."big money and corruption has coopted the process and prevented one man one vote" WOW!!! I have to admit that I have seen some wildly ignorant posts here on thaivisa (especially when they pertain to the U.S. A.) over the past two years, but this one takes the grand booby prize award The U.S.A. is the model for one man one vote! Not only is each and every citizen encouraged to vote but there are non partisan motor pools that are available in most precints for the elderly and handicapped, so that they can get to the polls and each polling place has oversight by all parties concerned to prevent voter fraud. There is no vote buying in the U.S., every single citizen is free to vote for whomever they want to once they are behind that curtain and no one is under duress or threat to vote for any particular canidate, even if someone felt pushed in a certain direction to vote for a particular canidate they have free will once behind that curtain to vote for anyone they wnt to It sounds like you don't like the fact that the American electorate voted G.W. Bush to two terms as President, if thats the case then tough sh_t , have a beer and get over it! I am going to do something quite out of character for me, and that is agree with Lao Po here on this one. I haven't read this entire thread but the few pages that I have read Lao Po seems to be spot on in his assesment of the situation. I also feel the need to add that the hypocritical outrage by PAD supporters here against the arrival of the ex Mrs' Thaksin Shinawatra is quite some farce. Over the past couple of weeks the PAD protesters violated civil and criminal law and cost Thailand 100's of millions of dollars in economic damage (going forward their actions will cost Thailand in the multiple billions of Dollars) and yet none of them were arrested, but Mrs. T reenters the country on a diplomatic passport having already made an appeal and posted bail on her white collar crime conviction, and the PAD protesters here are clamering for her immediate incarceration. The double standard is well beyond outrageous