P A D -bkk Protesters Aim To ‘re-educate’ Rural Thais

[LaoPo]

"I haven't believed America(n) is a properly functioning democracy for some time" ...."big money and corruption has coopted the process and prevented one man one vote" WOW!!! I have to admit that I have seen some wildly ignorant posts here on thaivisa (especially when they pertain to the U.S. A.) over the past two years, but this one takes the grand booby prize award The U.S.A. is the model for one man one vote! Not only is each and every citizen encouraged to vote but there are non partisan motor pools that are available in most precints for the elderly and handicapped, so that they can get to the polls and each polling place has oversight by all parties concerned to prevent voter fraud. There is no vote buying in the U.S., every single citizen is free to vote for whomever they want to once they are behind that curtain and no one is under duress or threat to vote for any particular canidate, even if someone felt pushed in a certain direction to vote for a particular canidate they have free will once behind that curtain to vote for anyone they wnt to It sounds like you don't like the fact that the American electorate voted G.W. Bush to two terms as President, if thats the case then tough sh_t , have a beer and get over it! I am going to do something quite out of character for me, and that is agree with Lao Po here on this one. I haven't read this entire thread but the few pages that I have read Lao Po seems to be spot on in his assesment of the situation. I also feel the need to add that the hypocritical outrage by PAD supporters here against the arrival of the ex Mrs' Thaksin Shinawatra is quite some farce. Over the past couple of weeks the PAD protesters violated civil and criminal law and cost Thailand 100's of millions of dollars in economic damage (going forward their actions will cost Thailand in the multiple billions of Dollars) and yet none of them were arrested, but Mrs. T reenters the country on a diplomatic passport having already made an appeal and posted bail on her white collar crime conviction, and the PAD protesters here are clamering for her immediate incarceration. The double standard is well beyond outrageous

...Maybe you didn't even realize member Animatic is a fellow American of yours, Vic....

LaoPo

[VegasVic]

To get back to main topic of this thread, I think that if the PAD ever tries anything like this again then the people of rural Issan, Chiang Mai and Rayong should grap their pitch forks, head for the capital "storm the Bastile" and educate the PAD leadership as to just who's country this is. I would imagine that after a few PAD leaders found themselves impaled on a bamboo pike, then law and order might just have a fighting chance in getting returned to Thailand! May the King return to full health soon and live to be 100 years old, it appears that Thailand needs the leadership that only HRH can deliver at this time!

[LaoPo]

To get back to main topic of this thread, I think that if the PAD ever tries anything like this again then the people of rural Issan, Chiang Mai and Rayong should grap their pitch forks, head for the capital "storm the Bastile" and educate the PAD leadership as to just who's country this is. I would imagine that after a few PAD leaders found themselves impaled on a bamboo pike, then law and order might just have a fighting chance in getting returned to Thailand! May the King return to full health soon and live to be 100 years old, it appears that Thailand needs the leadership that only HRH can deliver at this time!

I think you missed my comment since you were still typing when I posted this:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/bkk-Proteste...66#entry2387266

LaoPo

Edited December 6, 2008 by LaoPo

[VegasVic]

...Maybe you didn't even realize member Animatic is a fellow American of yours, Vic....

LaoPo

Lao, If thats the case then English must be his second language

[Dakhar]

LaoPo

I am actually IN Thailand not commenting on it from abroad.

Your quotes are fabulous though ----- "is leading the backlash" -- you conveniently left out what the backlash was against.

I agree with the representative democracy comment. Many people do. When a vote is only as good as the money tucked into a voter's pocket then it isn't democracy "PERIOD"

I also agree that massive consumerism that is spoken out against in that quote and that certainly does not match up with the ideas promoted by the King.

I don't feel obligated to answer your questions since the info has already been posted right here and you have already read it and then ask questions just to be disingenuous.

As far as people here needing to pack ... Thaksin was/is the one cracking down on foreigners.

I LIKE the idea of a country that develops in its pace at its own way and doesn't try to model itself after systems that sometimes worked and sometimes did not in other places.

There are several people in this forum posting from China but talking about Democracy and Human Rights that also make me laugh

But LaoPo --- you really did avoid answering MY questions.

Is every vote in Thailand equal under the system in place right now?

I didn't known that a TV member had more rights or a better view when posting from within Thailand rather than from outside. I landed first time in LOS more than 30 years ago; and you ?

I made the mistake by answering you whilst my post was addressed to Plus; instead you chose to answer for him. You have a nasty habit speaking for others, as if those members have no voice themselves.

You don't feel obligated to answer.....don't make me laugh. You CAN'T answer because you don't know; can't tell; can't explain !

Have a nice weekend but before I go I will answer to your last question:

YES, every vote in Thailand is considered equal under the present system in place and don't come up again with the vote buying/paying system, since ALL parties are ''guilty'' of doing so, convicted or not; and, what's more: deep in your heart you know it, as well as you know that the so called PAD protesters were paid and fed.

But even you, the PAD expert, can't tell me WHO are behind the curtains paying massive amounts of money, necessary to keep the military-style organized movement called PAD running.

And you may want to answer to MY last question: will every vote under PAD's proposal be equal ?

Let me answer for you: NO.

LaoPo

SPOT ON

Truth is, I would support the PAD, if they were sincere, but they are far from it. They are nothing but criminals, thugs, and punks given a license to create fear & havoc. Can you imagine being beaten, stripped, shot through the neck and tossed into a canal?????????????? What kind of people would do this???? And this kind of mentality is what people wish for as leadership!!!!!!!!!! It sickens me & frankly I am strongly considering leaving here. I have plans to leave for China in Jan. to check out some prospects.

and yea yea, I have heard it already.... BYE BYE yada yada yada. To each his own, but I don't like what I am smelling here in Thailand, that is for sure.

[LaoPo]

Lao, If thats the case then English must be his second language

No, I don't think so; but to his excuse: Animatic is dyslexic and I know how this can affect a person's writing/reading/typing since my son is dyslexic as well, as is his mother and her (late) mother. It's not fun to be dyslexic but than again: I'm color blind which isn't nice as well....but there are worse things in life...like supporting the PAD

LaoPo

[VegasVic]

"I haven't believed America(n) is a properly functioning democracy for some time" ...."big money and corruption has coopted the process and prevented one man one vote" WOW!!! I have to admit that I have seen some wildly ignorant posts here on thaivisa (especially when they pertain to the U.S. A.) over the past two years, but this one takes the grand booby prize award The U.S.A. is the model for one man one vote! Not only is each and every citizen encouraged to vote but there are non partisan motor pools that are available in most precints for the elderly and handicapped, so that they can get to the polls and each polling place has oversight by all parties concerned to prevent voter fraud. There is no vote buying in the U.S., every single citizen is free to vote for whomever they want to once they are behind that curtain and no one is under duress or threat to vote for any particular canidate, even if someone felt pushed in a certain direction to vote for a particular canidate they have free will once behind that curtain to vote for anyone they wnt to :jerk: It sounds like you don't like the fact that the American electorate voted G.W. Bush to two terms as President, if thats the case then tough sh_t , have a beer and get over it! I am going to do something quite out of character for me, and that is agree with Lao Po here on this one. I haven't read this entire thread but the few pages that I have read Lao Po seems to be spot on in his assesment of the situation. I also feel the need to add that the hypocritical outrage by PAD supporters here against the arrival of the ex Mrs' Thaksin Shinawatra is quite some farce. Over the past couple of weeks the PAD protesters violated civil and criminal law and cost Thailand 100's of millions of dollars in economic damage (going forward their actions will cost Thailand in the multiple billions of Dollars) and yet none of them were arrested, but Mrs. T reenters the country on a diplomatic passport having already made an appeal and posted bail on her white collar crime conviction, and the PAD protesters here are clamering for her immediate incarceration. The double standard is well beyond outrageous

...Maybe you didn't even realize member Animatic is a fellow American of yours, Vic....

LaoPo

Lao, If thats the case then English must be his second language

No, I don't think so; but to his excuse: Animatic is dyslexic and I know how this can affect a person's writing/reading/typing since my son is dyslexic as well, as is his mother and her (late) mother. It's not fun to be dyslexic but than again: I'm color blind which isn't nice as well....but there are worse things in life...like supporting the PAD

LaoPo

Very true Lao! If animatic is indeed dyslexic then his horrendous grammer is certainly excused, his ignorance however is not

[Plus]

The most basic fact is that no one will lose a vote.

Maybe lead the blind to the FACT where that is written by the PAD, ok ?

YOU allege that people would lose a right to vote, it's YOUR responsibility to show where you got this idea from.

Why should I try to convince you that something YOU made up doesn't exist?!?

Tweaking "one man one vote" system and losing a right to vote are not the same thing. In the last elections some people had more than one vote and no one cried over "one man one vote" principle. Half the Senate is appointed already, no one cried over "one man one vote" principle.

Why suddenly make so much fuss over "one man one vote" now? In principle Thailand haven't had this system for a while already and no one even noticed.

PAD wants the civil society to sort out the details of new politics, and it's for the civil society to implement it. PAD demands do not go further than for civil socitey to start the process of political reform seriously with "new politics" proposal as a starting point.

[Thaddeus]

PAD wants the civil society to sort out the details of new politics, and it's for the civil society to implement it. PAD demands do not go further than for civil socitey to start the process of political reform seriously with "new politics" proposal as a starting point.

Ah ..... so, they don't know what it is either.

If you do, can you please explain to me what 'New Politics' is, just the basic stuff in simple terms, I am a bear of very little brain.

[Plus]

PAD wants the civil society to sort out the details of new politics, and it's for the civil society to implement it. PAD demands do not go further than for civil socitey to start the process of political reform seriously with "new politics" proposal as a starting point.

Ah ..... so, they don't know what it is either.

If you do, can you please explain to me what 'New Politics' is, just the basic stuff in simple terms, I am a bear of very little brain.

New politics is a starting point for political reform, reform that will be implemented not by PAD but by civil society.

What is not clear about that? Don't tell me the civil society is at a complete loss where to start with this reform and don't have enought details to start thinking.

The only demands for details are from posters who accuse PAD of imposing a fascist system on society and they want validation for their made up idea. Well, PAD is not imposing anything on anyone, it's PROPOSING a starting point, no more no less.

[Meerkat]

You don't need to set up a political party to present your ideas to the public. All you need is a free and inquisitive media. Something which is not welcome in this thread. And I don't understand it at all - why would our defenders of democracy want to preserve the status quo and refuse the poor access to information, even as "alternative" as ASTV

Fair enough; when you say, "present it to the people", I thought you meant put it to the vote. The PAD has been demanding a steam-rolling in of "New Politics" without a vote of course. Come to think of it, without even thinking about it much either. I still don't see what is so special about "New Politics" that only it should deserve debate. The other three forms of government I listed earlier weren't random choices; just the ones I've heard more mention of in the last year or two (yes, including the third one).

Certainly not English language press, and rural folks who are alleged to be the most affected don't read newspapers and rely mostly on TV. No "new politics" on NBT, afaik.

The English language press here is pitiful for starters. Your allegation that rural people "don't read newspapers" is false - where do you get this stuff? Again you portray yourself as someone who believes that rural people only watch NBT, tend the fields, and wait for the next election "hand-out" to choose who to vote for. I'm sure there might be people like that, but those "rural folk" that I spend time with would feel incredibly insulted at the stereotype you portray. People do talk politics; people do talk about "New Politics".

I talked about meaningful debate, with all sides expressing their opinions and offering solutions. ASTV hardly qualifies, and it doesn't reach pro-government camp at all.

ASTV does reach some pro-government areas. Sondhi was quite crafty by putting a channel called "e-san TV" on the same satellite transponder that ASTV & TOC are broadcast on; a channel devoted to Isaan issues with some programmes broadcast in the Isaan/Lao dialect. A perfect way to get "the punters" in (never let it be said that Sondhi is not clever in using the media, even if he has struggled to make money out of it.) The PAD have been instrumental in getting more of these satellite dishes erected in villages up north. Heck I even watch TOC here in Bangkok because (editorial bias aside) it has the best English language domestic TV news available to me.

Again though you ask why there isn't meaningful political debate, and I tell you than in my experience there is. Just don't look for it on the op-ed pages of the Nation or the Post (ah, well that's not strictly true, but you have to go down to the readers' comments section to find it.)

First of all it's not a prerequisite that the military will do the selecting. Would you relax a little if it was entrusted to the Senate, for example.

I didn't say they would do the selecting; I said that "New Politics" will put the government under the military. It is a central tenet of "New Politics" that has remained unchanged throughout. The military will have the right to dissolve the house on a whim (couched in language like, "if they don't think the government is doing a good enough job"). This is IMO wrong. Very wrong. Military dictatorship is too extreme a term to use, but it is certainly getting close to what the PAD champions. You bring up the Senate. You mean the half of the Senate that is currently elected by the people, or the half that is appointed by seven judges that are themselves affirmed by the self same Senate? So in answer to your question, no I'd not like to see representatives appointed by anyone other than the voting population.

Yes, so far I can't see absolutely nothing wrong with selected part of the Senate. Why not strengthen this practice?

What have the Senate reps done to further the interests of the sectors they represent? Nothing IMO, so why strengthen them? As to what's wrong with them, well even if they carry on doing nothing for their "constituents", they still can't be voted out by them. This is the strength of democracy; whilst it doesn't guarantee getting the right people in, it does allow for the people to vote them out if they don't perform. The current Senate appointees are immune from that threat, as they only have to keep seven judges sweet to keep their jobs. Cosy (and saves on brown envelopes maybe?).

You claim in a later post than the one I am replying to that the people haven't complained about omov with respect to the Senate. That's just nonsense; there has been outcry over it and is reflected in one of the constitutional amendments proposed by the PPP. The amendement would have turned the Senate back into a 100% elected body - not something widely reflected in the pages of the Nation (let alone ASTV) though is it? You talk about people distorting facts to their own ends; the constitutional amendments are almost always portrayed here is being solely to let Thaksin off the hook. It is the PAD line and has been repeated so often it is taken for gospel. It is <deleted>.

Don't forget that the main thrust is to clear up the politicians, they are the ones who create all the political troubles in this country.

Ok, you can say it's PAD, but look - now they want to appoint Chalerm as the PM and everybody tells them they should get lost, no one would blame PAD for taking to the streets again if they go through with this ridiculous idea.

Right from the start the "new politics" was meant to kick the likes of Chalerm out. I don't see anyone who is against this basic premise. People might not agree with PAD, but no one have thought of any better way to deal with Chalerms yet.

No. It is the courts' job to clean up politicians. They are doing this right now (although I still think that collective punishment under the present constitution is wrong). The main thrust of the PAD is to stop the majority (or plurality if you must) electing people that a minority don't like. I'd hate Chalerm to be PM, but I recognize that he can be voted out at the next election if that's the people's wish. I'd feel the same if there was a mass illegal uprising in the UK to kick out Brown, a PM who was not elected into office, but who nonetheless is there legally. As soon as you cherry-pick as to who should and should not be "allowed" to be PM (as long as they fit the legal requirements of course), then you are already on the slope leading away from people's representation.

The crux of your arguments still come from the "Isaanites are too ignorant to vote" angle, even if in reality it's a dilution of the vote rather than a simple eradication of it that is being discussed. You've expressed this opinion implicitly in this and in many other threads, and on at least one occasion expressed it explicitly (the baboon epithet wasn't you - I remember now it was from an op-ed in Sondhi's Manager which referred to some Isaanites as being lower than baboons and that they should be stripped of their voting rights. I still can't remember what you called them but it wasn't pretty.) Instead of just believeing everything you read about them in Bangkok-centric newspapers, or what you hear from the likes of the gentleman quoted about in the original post on this thread, go out and talk with them.

[digitele]

PAD to re-educate rural Thais.

What was wrong with their education in the first place?

Re-educate. Didn't Cambodia and Vietnam have a similar education programs?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would find it pretty damned insulting.

To say the least.....

Re-educate the masses? The majority?

Hmmmmm. That'll work.

[Thaddeus]

PAD wants the civil society to sort out the details of new politics, and it's for the civil society to implement it. PAD demands do not go further than for civil socitey to start the process of political reform seriously with "new politics" proposal as a starting point.

Ah ..... so, they don't know what it is either.

If you do, can you please explain to me what 'New Politics' is, just the basic stuff in simple terms, I am a bear of very little brain.

New politics is a starting point for political reform, reform that will be implemented not by PAD but by civil society.

What is not clear about that? Don't tell me the civil society is at a complete loss where to start with this reform and don't have enought details to start thinking.

The only demands for details are from posters who accuse PAD of imposing a fascist system on society and they want validation for their made up idea. Well, PAD is not imposing anything on anyone, it's PROPOSING a starting point, no more no less.

So, you don't know what it is either then.

Next question....... who makes up civil society.

Edited December 6, 2008 by Thaddeus

[Plus]

who makes up civil society.

Politically active citizens, from folks who write letters to the newspapers to people who set up various assossiations and organisations to make themselves heard.

Meerkat, I've seen your long post, will reply later.

[Thaddeus]

who makes up civil society.

Politically active citizens, from folks who write letters to the newspapers to people who set up various assossiations and organisations to make themselves heard.

Oki, the kind of people who think that crippling two major airports for over a week is a perfectly reasonable thing to do?

[Samuian]

This Mithran fellow is a puzzle.

How could he NOT know that Skytrain was build and opened before Thaksin?

Not to mention that he grew up in the UK, hasn't stepped a foot in a Thai school himself, yet preaches how Thai middle classes live here like colonists out of touch with reality. He couldn't be THAT hypocritical, could he?

Sometime a promotion maybe in sight, money does move a lot in this country...havent' we read recently a lot of "money politics"? ahhh...nooooo... a brand new term was coined since squarehead took over... tax-sin-onomics...

"get money for nothing get your chicks for free....." freeloaders of all factions, unite, unite!

"

[siam4ever]

PAD claims they are against "money politics". But can anyone name one person they have put forward for PM that isn't corrupt as hel_l. Of course you can't. Because PAD hasn't put forward any names. It is as if these PAD terrorists have angels in mind waiting in the wings, but they can't/won't/needn't reveal their names to such useless groups such as average Thai citizens or the press. The PAD really is most disgusting here.

[LaoPo]

The most basic fact is that no one will lose a vote.

Maybe lead the blind to the FACT where that is written by the PAD, ok ?

YOU allege that people would lose a right to vote, it's YOUR responsibility to show where you got this idea from.

Why should I try to convince you that something YOU made up doesn't exist?!?

Isn't the PAD proposal idea 70:30, changed on Sept. 21st into 50:50 taking away votes ? Wasn't it Sondhi who said that the uneducated rural poor were unfit to vote ?

I CALL THAT LOSING VOTES - even better: STEALING VOTES !

Don't you catch me with words Sir; English is not my first language but I'm sure you knew exactly what I meant with ''losing votes''

Even mentioning the words that rural poor are unfit to vote is a bloody shame Sir ! And..you know it !

And: if you support that stupid ideology of the PAD: shame on you ! If you do so, how do you even dare to eat the rice and food, grown by rural poor people

LaoPo

[permanent_disorder]

arrgg PAD & TOC Channel are cheater. now all their funny PAD Update News disappeared from the TOC site and can not be found with search engine.

the big announcments are still there and also the Victory Announcement 27/2008 from 02.12.2008

with that pamphlet PAD keeps on going to voice the threat with "New Politics"

.....

As the current period is now a period of a political vacuum in the country, the PAD would like to call on whichever side that attains power to run the country to find a solution for the current problems and not to create conditions for another political turmoil in the country. Do not bring to power people from the Thaksin regime. Address the wrongdoings conducted by those in the Thaksin regime. Join with the people in making new politics a reality.

The PAD would like to make the following pledges.

1. If a proxy government of the Thaksin regime is set up again or if there is an attempt to amend the Constitution or the law to whitewash the wrongdoings of those in the Thaksin regime, to benefit politicians, or to lessen the power of the King, the PAD will return.

2. From now on, if there is any government which comes into power but is insincere in its efforts to launch new politics with the people, the PAD will return.

We would like to sincerely thank the people for being part of this historic event. Until we meet again when the country needs us.

.................................................

what happen with all the brainstorming sessions, the tens of hundreds academics that had taken part. i remember that time well, end of september beginning october. before the brainstorming sessions(PAD called them so) Chamlomg admitted that it has his critics. that same acedemics say it coeld take years to install. during the week had been a couple of bashings. certain academics prostitute themself for money, a thai newspaper blamed for sending flowers to somchai first day in the office, how can that be and so on. after this Chamlong announced "New Politics" is loved and welcomed by all and NOW, right NOW is the time for it.

(that was shortly before 8.10. the staged arrest of Chamlong put Pallop into command 'the battle would be finished in three days, whatever that means.'*

that was a failed Putsch, a failed Coup. for the killer government crackdown on peaceful protestors Chamlong would had taken the Stage as leading actor. but for the accidentel, 'situational' people take the power take the power and overthrown in blodddy fightthe puppet proxies, Chamlong needed an alibi.)

after this the PAD used the word " New Politics" less frequently, so my own memory. but it was never "official dropped".

the PAD propaganda praised "New Politics" as something that will have an bigger impact on society as Lenins "Что делать?" (what has to be done?)

here in the forum a PAD apologist came up with the phrase "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people" the irony.

it was all a wank about Somchai and thaksin.

and if i would be an avid, honest long time PAD supporter and my support mainly based on their promise to install "New Politics" - NOW! do it now, as promised. but nothing happen, i would feel pretty cheated.

same as many other PAD supporters who get their kick out of the vision of "New Politics" would be feel cheated, or not?

and it would be my right to demand a proper explanation why "New Politics" is suddendly less important than before. but is it a matter of fact that "new politics" is less important or got even dropped or just a lame excuse, set at rest to something they can not explain.

or what we get as explanation is just Sauna talk. fantasies. delusions.

the couple of self declared advocats and defender of PAD who will dismiss and dismissed any criticism of PAD or "New Politics", they tell us all different stories. looks for my like none of them have a clue.

[permanent_disorder]

who makes up civil society.

Politically active citizens, from folks who write letters to the newspapers to people who set up various assossiations and organisations to make themselves heard.

Meerkat, I've seen your long post, will reply later.

such a bunch of people i see in prachatai, the Asian Human Rights Commission and their warnings, in voices like the one of Awzar Thi or Professor Giles Ji Ungpakorn, Freedom Against Censorship Thailand (FACT)

all of them thaksin critics since long time and during a time Sondhi and Thaksin or Thaksin and Chamlomg have been big and best buddies.

the people who have been against the Coup and outspoken against the Junta constitution, that is for me the civil society. politically active citizens, with concerns should not be ignored, opinions to think about.

free of trash talk, vodoo magic scam, worst insults, violent actions, intimidation of journalists and so on - all that we could see in the PAD cult circus daily. HYPOCRITE!

even The Nation now starts to ask if the PAD is a brainwashed political cult?

[Plus]

That's not The Nation, PD, it was Prawit who has a long history of writing anti-PAD pieces, I think they should move his articles from "analysis" to "opinionated drivel" pages.

Giles is certainly a member of civil society and his input needs to be listened to. Unfortunately he doesn't have any input, I'm afraid. He doesn't think Thai politics have any problems whatsoever and need not be cleaned of anything.

AHRC are a bunch of clowns - they are not capable of engaging in any meaningful discussion without insulting everyone they don't agree with, and they are based in Hong Kong anyway.

FACT are welcome to contribute, however they must realise that "new politics" discussion is a forum to move forward, not a place to remind everyone of the coup, again....

>>>

Lao Po, as long as everyone goes to the polling station and cast his/her vote you can't declare they have lost it. Right now it's 10/90% split, I think, if you count appointed senators. PAD is proposing 70-30 or 50-50, the principle is still the same, only proportions are different. People still go out and vote, no one loses anything.

Also in the last elections some people could vote for two or three candidates, others only for one, and no one even noticed that OMOV system had been lost.

[blaze]

That's not The Nation, PD, it was Prawit who has a long history of writing anti-PAD pieces, I think they should move his articles from "analysis" to "opinionated drivel" pages.

Giles is certainly a member of civil society and his input needs to be listened to. Unfortunately he doesn't have any input, I'm afraid. He doesn't think Thai politics have any problems whatsoever and need not be cleaned of anything.

AHRC are a bunch of clowns - they are not capable of engaging in any meaningful discussion without insulting everyone they don't agree with, and they are based in Hong Kong anyway.

FACT are welcome to contribute, however they must realise that "new politics" discussion is a forum to move forward, not a place to remind everyone of the coup, again....

>>>

Lao Po, as long as everyone goes to the polling station and cast his/her vote you can't declare they have lost it. Right now it's 10/90% split, I think, if you count appointed senators. PAD is proposing 70-30 or 50-50, the principle is still the same, only proportions are different. People still go out and vote, no one loses anything.

Also in the last elections some people could vote for two or three candidates, others only for one, and no one even noticed that OMOV system had been lost.

Interesting that the only rural voters, as identified on this forum, who require 're-education' are those in the North and North East. Perhaps now with a Dem led coalition- we will hear equally strident voices calling for the (re-?)education of rural voters - from Ratchaburi to Sadao.

But you are correct Plus- under New Politics- nobody will lose their vote. It's simply a case that their vote can be rendered meaningless when the opinions of the appointed component are brought into play- in which case, there's not much sense in voting at all- except to have reps who can break deadlocks within the appointed majority. And given that the same body (or so it seems) are ultimately responsible for appointing all the appointed reps- such deadlocks will likely be few and unsubstantive when they do occur.

It is unfortunate that those who advocate the notion of appointed MPs can not - or simply choose not- to understand that appointed does not mean elected. Unless the Thai word for appointed means something different than the English, there will NOT be elections within sectors- there will be appointments.

And all power will then rest with the appointing body.

I think to understand what drives the PAD "new politics' we have to look back at the coup-driven constitution discussions- where the notion of a fully appointed senate was floated- this is simply an extension of that vision. Based, strangely, that those in positions to appoint are incorruptible--

Will the PAD and its reactionary backers continue to call for New Politics now that the party which expressed most sympathy to them is about to assume power?

And will the Dems make a stand- finally- on the entire notion of New Politics- which would neutralize its support as surely as it will neutralize the support from the PPP?

Edited December 6, 2008 by blaze

[Sturbuc]

I think its unwise to read too much into a quote from someone whose first language is not English. I'm quite sure they don't mean to imply they need to start a campaign of brainwashing etc.

The fact is education is sorely lacking in Thailand, and its especially poor in the provinces, ask anyone who does business here. Thats not to say that there not educated people in the rural population but Im quite certain that you will find a higher standard of education in Bangkok it stands to reason.

A better educated population should be in a position to make better choices.

However, I find it sad that the PAD have chosen this route to accomplish this goal, this shows no respect for the rural community. The PAD have missed an opportunity to apply more pressure on the opposition to make rural needs a priority in the Democrats election campaign and could even have taken the education role on themselves.

Well, if this means that the population outside of Bangkok is not implicit dummy and has to be RE-Educated as long as they don't vote for the PAD, it comes to me close to the methods used by some autocratic systems. Why not return to the 70/30 idea the pad had before? Much less input but the same result.

or if it implies that all the people outside Bangkok are dummies and have to be educatedbefore they might be allowed to vote: how much arrogance should be allowed to some establishment to prejudge about the majority of the population? Sure there's some lack in education but to be honest, if i would have the choice between a party who wants the feeding bowl but will feed me too and another party promising wealthf.or the weathy, my choice would be clear. And who was increasing the obligatory and free of charge schooldays for everybody?

THINK!!!

Edited December 7, 2008 by Sturbuc

[henryalleman]

May I emphasize again that the PAD is not an political party, but an non-political movement.

BTW is Sondhi putting himself up for PM?

Did they ever announce that they will establish a political party?

They said that after the government stepped down they will stop their actions.

Did they, or did they not?

So stop nagging about the PAD, its the political party's who are on game now.

[henryalleman]

Are you denying that there is no corruption in the US elections. What about the complaints than that people where prohibited to register themselves. Why both Republicans and democrats prepared an army of lawyers to tackle every complaint.

[henryalleman]

For your information Vic

http://www.buyingofthepresident.org/index....t/election_year

/2004_bush_vs_kerry/

The american elections is all about who have the biggest pile of money.

[tig28]

That's not The Nation, PD, it was Prawit who has a long history of writing anti-PAD pieces, I think they should move his articles from "analysis" to "opinionated drivel" pages. "opinionated drivel" -- Plus-- perhaps its time you considered that opinion against the aims of PAD might just be the voice of reason.

Giles is certainly a member of civil society and his input needs to be listened to. Unfortunately he doesn't have any input, I'm afraid. He doesn't think Thai politics have any problems whatsoever and need not be cleaned of anything.

AHRC are a bunch of clowns - they are not capable of engaging in any meaningful discussion without insulting everyone they don't agree with, and they are based in Hong Kong anyway. Of course they are "a bunch of clowns"...... in your view --- Perhaps as they (also) are often critical of PAD? People should consider their activities: http://www.ahrchk.net/index.php

FACT are welcome to contribute, however they must realise that "new politics" discussion is a forum to move forward, not a place to remind everyone of the coup, again.... For heavens sake --why not remind people that the forces behind the coup are the same forces driving PAD ? --and for the same self serving reasons.

>>>

Lao Po, as long as everyone goes to the polling station and cast his/her vote you can't declare they have lost it. Right now it's 10/90% split, I think, if you count appointed senators. PAD is proposing 70-30 or 50-50, the principle is still the same, only proportions are different. People still go out and vote, no one loses anything. I do not think that many people will forget the sick "justification" that PAD and its fellow travelers sprouted to justify the first fruit-cake plan to ensure that only "the correct people" could govern Thailand.

PLUS should remember .... as much of this came from him! . "stupid peasants"--- "unfit to vote" --- and much more bigoted vitriol as some sick reasoning to justify PAD"s idea of just WHO should govern the country. The 70:30 theory did not fly--and 50:50 fared little better --- now we are seeing a more convoluted method to achieve the same aim of removing the ability of the electorate to choose the government. Anyway that PAD choose to phrase it --- their aim is unchanged. Different name--- same game.

Also in the last elections some people could vote for two or three candidates, others only for one, and no one even noticed that OMOV system had been lost.

[permanent_disorder]

...Maybe you didn't even realize member Animatic is a fellow American of yours, Vic....

LaoPo

Lao, If thats the case then English must be his second language

No, I don't think so; but to his excuse: Animatic is dyslexic and I know how this can affect a person's writing/reading/typing since my son is dyslexic as well, as is his mother and her (late) mother. It's not fun to be dyslexic but than again: I'm color blind which isn't nice as well....but there are worse things in life...like supporting the PAD

LaoPo

there are a lot of grammar nazis here around on TVforum.

and 'my own english' contains errors and mistakes. it's not my native language. and my comments are controversial, dislike by a quite a few other TV members. but, to my surprise, very seldom i came under attack of grammer nazis.

except by animatic. he did such cheap shots a couple of times.

and despite one of animatics favourite subject g.w.bus' i had the assumption that he is french. the flowery language he use, his "poetic" attempts, the verbiages.

one is for sure, he must be a paid agent of the scroll wheel mouse industry. his entries increase wear and tear of my mouse.

[LaoPo]

...

please keep your LOLs and don't flame baseless other TV member.

don't post any sauna or beer bar gossip.

if you know anything more or anything better, everyone is welcome to share his knowledge.

but i guess i can here second LaoPo 'You CAN'T answer because you don't know; can't tell; can't explain!'

Correct.

Not a single pro-PAD supporter even bothered to reply to my questions:

"On 21 September, the PAD changed its formula (from 70:30, LP) to 100% elections, but with 50% of Parliament voted for by geographic area and another 50% voted for by occupational representatives.[47][48][49]"

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Al...itical_ideology

A. WHAT exactly does this mean: 50% of Parliament voted for by geographic area

B. WHAT exactly is: 50% voted for by occupational representatives

C. WHO is going to decide and implement the PAD's proposal of 50:50 (taking into consideration the PAD is a non-political party) ?

I asked those questions because I genuinely do NOT know what these mysterious words by the PAD/Sondhi mean.

Member jdinasia claims the answers have been given but since I posted them.....nobody gave an answer including him. Many big words, except answers.

So, PAD experts: please explain what these words mean but if you can't, be a good sport to admit you can't answer because you don't know the meaning of them.

I'm man enough to admit that I don't know and understand what these words mean (can't read Thai); but than again, English is not my first language, so I'm not old enough yet to be taught.

LaoPo

1.May I emphasize again that the PAD is not an political party, but an non-political movement.

2. BTW is Sondhi putting himself up for PM?

3.Did they ever announce that they will establish a political party?

4. They said that after the government stepped down they will stop their actions.

5.Did they, or did they not?

6. So stop nagging about the PAD, its the political party's who are on game now.

1. I wrote so under my point C

2. Who said so ?

3. Yes; since they formed their own political party already -sleeping in a drawer- back in 2006. search and you'll find it

4. they did; but they're like mice; they keep coming back

5. see 4

6. I won't stop warning about the PAD since the PAD is a dangerous movement for the future of Thailand.

To my non-surprise I see that you also belong to the PAD supporters who is NOT able to give me answers to my questions under A - B and C in my quoted message, above.

And, Henry, I think I'm doing it -still- the polite way, opposite of your own nasty wordings and behaviour about the other half of your own country -Belgium-

You even don't want to have yourself called or seen as a proud Belgian..instead you call yourself a Flemish citizen...and hate the rest of your own country.

And you are 60 years of age and give me comments how I should behave about Thailand and the PAD ?

Hmmmm......you know that saying about the mirror ? I, sure you do.

LaoPo

Edited December 7, 2008 by LaoPo

[Plus]

Ok, Lao Po, I won't be saying anything new, but since you are stubbornly refuse to look up ealier posts on the subject, here it goes.

A. WHAT exactly does this mean: 50% of Parliament voted for by geographic area

It means 50% of MPs are voted in from geographical constituencies. Constituncies are formed by geographical boundaries but the number of representatives would also depend on the total population. On average one MP represents about 60-70 thousand voters, in some areas a bit more, in some areas a bit less. I mention this only to show that not everybody is equally represented in parliament as it is.

B. WHAT exactly is: 50% voted for by occupational representatives

It means that 50% of parlamentarians will represent various social groups and occupations. No one has ever drawn the proportions or even eligible groups.

PAD has mentioned the process of selecting them, but not the process of nominating them, which is far more important (I hope you are reading this, Meerkat). Technically after the nominees have been brought forward the selection could be done by a computer, it could be like government bidding auctions where they have all scoring systems in place. Personally I'd prefer this process applied to selecting Ministers, the way they do it, filling most important positions in the country, is absolutely non-transparent, unaccountable, and anti-democratic. No company could afford to have this kind of management.

C. WHO is going to decide and implement the PAD's proposal of 50:50 (taking into consideration the PAD is a non-political party) ?

Thai civil society. You can be sure Sondhi won't make it to the Consitution Drafting Committee. At the moment no one knows if the political reform will be started in the near future. If Democrats form the government and perform satisfactory the underlying need for a political clean up will disappear until the next big upheaval. More likely, though, that Dems would answer public request for Constitutional amendments but they will be very limited in scope and won't touch on occupational representation altogether.