P A D -bkk Protesters Aim To ‘re-educate’ Rural Thais

[Martin]

For 'Animatic', re post #418:

I, too, have come to the conclusion that excessive specialisation and a dearth of trans-disciplinary academic work is one of the major untackled problems in which many modern problems are rooted.

As an engineering student half-a-century ago, I was lucky to study in a Department of Electrical Engineering in a University that had no other engineering departments, and our Professor, the late Emrys Williams, believed in 'The Whole Engineer'. So we also had to do Mechanical, Civil and Hydraulics in broad outline, taught by the same staff who taught Electrical, or Electronics, or Communications. It did both us and them good.

In mid-career, when I drifted into academia for a while, I found myself regarded with awe that I would volunteer to teach at undergraduate level across all the disciplines. One friend asked me: "From where on Earth do you get such confidence?" and I said: "From Prof Emrys Williams. It is a pity that nobody followed in his footsteps".

I noticed that there are a couple of leading American profs (at Yale, I think it was) who were pointing to excessive specialisation as resulting in nobody having a good overall view at the highest levels of governance. (Sorry, but I can't put my hand on the reference.)

But it is a problem in other areas, too. In fact, when executive directors in major banks cannot grasp what their trading managers are doing, and we end up with their whole edifices reeling, it is more than a problem, though; it results in disaster.

It is not just 'rural Thais' who need different education, and not just the wider range of Thais (especially surgeons who display such crass ignorance of the greater part of their country that they make statements like the one that started this thread), it is a worldwide need.

[Martin]

For 'Lao Po', re post # 420, where you say:

"...let's hope the rural people stay calm..."

I am more worried about the Bangkok people failing to stay calm when ther lifestyles cannot be supported any more. The first reaction to hunger tends to be anger.

What is happening in Greece is worrisome---and it is not the rural poor who have 'lost their cool'; nor even the urban poor; but the urban middle-class.

As energy depletes, 55 million Thai people in the Provinces won't be able to support 10 million in the hyper-urban primate city-captal. Bangkok's population needs to halve to 5 million over the next twenty years, and to halve again over the following twenty.

That is an enormous structural change, which, as you say, the present socio-political situation is ill-designed to cope with.

[younghusband]

Occupational representation ...., setting it up is a major headache.

Earlier I asked about the mechanics of putting all this in place, and you gave a sensible reply.Although I don't agree with this approach at all, I think you shouldbe given credit for setting out your views clearly.I still, putting my own views on one side, don't see how this will be moved forward and concur with your "major headache" comment.Checking out Abhisit's interviews with CNN, BBC, David Frost etc I don't think he has theslightest intention of going down this road.So what's needed is another crisis I suppose if the PAD agenda is to get anywhere

[younghusband]

Actually, Abhisit got his 'first' in a Disneyland collection of Mickey Mouse subjects called PPE (Politics, Philosophy and Economics).

A 'first' in PPE was also gained by Ruth Kelly, who got to the UK Cabinet and was not impressive. It was also gained by a certain other old-Etonian called Cameron, who is now leader of the UK Opposition, but seems very short on policy ideas.

Not all 'firsts' in PPE at Oxford have been disappointments, though. Possibly the best Prime Minister that the UK never had was Dennis Healey, who was one such----but it was after a boyhood in a tough North Yorkshire textile-machinery-manufacturing town called Keighley, and being a pupil at Bradford Grammar School. There is all the world of difference between Bradford and Windsor (the location of Eton).

PPE makes sense as a mid-career degree for a mature adult who has real-life experience with which to compare the theories of politics, philosophy and economics----but, when I mischievously suggest it, I find that university lecturers blanch at the suggestion that they should be exposed to the rigours of having such 'students' to contend with.

(Incidentally, Dennis Healey wasn't only a politician. His World War II service showed him to be a man who could manage a tough managerial job in the field of action (invasion beach master----than which I cannot think of any tougher managerial appointment---and I have held the highest one on Earth). One always wonders how much of Healey's success at Westminster was due to boyhood in Keighley and Bradford and service in the wartime army, rather than the 'first' in PPE at Oxford.)

So, if the new PM of Thailand does turn out well, I shall wonder whether it was because of, or in spite of, a very privileged start in life.

Here we go again.You can't keep the chippiness some Brits feel about elite institutions out of the debate.But he has half a point in that Cambridge economists (including I blushingly admit myself) often joke about the pretensions of the PPE school.The chippy brigade often feel a bit confused when they have to deal with a state educated Oxford graduate like Dennis Healey (because what often really irritates them is that so many Oxbridge graduates are privately educated).In the case of Dennis Healey he is simply wrong.Healey was devoted to Oxford and Balliol and recognised their influence, and in any case he didn't read PPE but Greats which is Greek and Latin literature/ancient philosophy (like Boris Johnson also at Balliol, and friend of our handsome new PM).Whether a politician gets a first, second or third is irrelevant.A first probably means you are rather clever.A second or a third doesn't mean you are not.Whatever your class of degree doesn't really say anything about your success in life.

I wonder whether we are to be enlightened what is the highest managerial appointment on Earth.

Edited December 21, 2008 by younghusband

[animatic]

Actually, Abhisit got his 'first' in a Disneyland collection of Mickey Mouse subjects called PPE (Politics, Philosophy and Economics).

A 'first' in PPE was also gained by Ruth Kelly, who got to the UK Cabinet and was not impressive. It was also gained by a certain other old-Etonian called Cameron, who is now leader of the UK Opposition, but seems very short on policy ideas.

Not all 'firsts' in PPE at Oxford have been disappointments, though. Possibly the best Prime Minister that the UK never had was Dennis Healey, who was one such----but it was after a boyhood in a tough North Yorkshire textile-machinery-manufacturing town called Keighley, and being a pupil at Bradford Grammar School. There is all the world of difference between Bradford and Windsor (the location of Eton).

PPE makes sense as a mid-career degree for a mature adult who has real-life experience with which to compare the theories of politics, philosophy and economics----but, when I mischievously suggest it, I find that university lecturers blanch at the suggestion that they should be exposed to the rigours of having such 'students' to contend with.

(Incidentally, Dennis Healey wasn't only a politician. His World War II service showed him to be a man who could manage a tough managerial job in the field of action (invasion beach master----than which I cannot think of any tougher managerial appointment---and I have held the highest one on Earth). One always wonders how much of Healey's success at Westminster was due to boyhood in Keighley and Bradford and service in the wartime army, rather than the 'first' in PPE at Oxford.)

So, if the new PM of Thailand does turn out well, I shall wonder whether it was because of, or in spite of, a very privileged start in life.

Here we go again.You can't keep the chippiness some Brits feel about elite institutions out of the debate.But he has half a point in that Cambridge economists (including I blushingly admit myself) often joke about the pretensions of the PPE school.The chippy brigade often feel a bit confused when they have to deal with a state educated Oxford graduate like Dennis Healey (because what often really irritates them is that so many Oxbridge graduates are privately educated).In the case of Dennis Healey he is simply wrong.Healey was devoted to Oxford and Balliol and recognised their influence, and in any case he didn't read PPE but Greats which is Greek and Latin literature/ancient philosophy (like Boris Johnson also at Balliol, and friend of our handsome new PM).Whether a politician gets a first, second or third is irrelevant.A first probably means you are rather clever.A second or a third doesn't mean you are not.Whatever your class of degree doesn't really say anything about your success in life.

I wonder whether we are to be enlightened what is the highest managerial appointment on Earth.

Motherhood.

Edited December 21, 2008 by animatic

[LaoPo]

For 'Lao Po', re post # 420, where you say:

"...let's hope the rural people stay calm..."

I am more worried about the Bangkok people failing to stay calm when ther lifestyles cannot be supported any more. The first reaction to hunger tends to be anger.

What is happening in Greece is worrisome---and it is not the rural poor who have 'lost their cool'; nor even the urban poor; but the urban middle-class.

As energy depletes, 55 million Thai people in the Provinces won't be able to support 10 million in the hyper-urban primate city-captal. Bangkok's population needs to halve to 5 million over the next twenty years, and to halve again over the following twenty.

That is an enormous structural change, which, as you say, the present socio-political situation is ill-designed to cope with.

I disagree for the reason that Thailand has a workforce of some 38 million.

50% of that number or 18,5 million are working in agriculture and the average income is below Baht 3,500/month.

First the rural workers are losing their jobs, also in bangkok and will head home leaving the shops, restarants and other workplaces a lot more empty than they are now. Bangkok bosses will cut in work staff and the rural people will be the first to let go.

The comparison with Greece is not in place because it were the students who went into the streets first complaining about the devastating situation Greece is in.

The Thai students didn't hit the streets...yet.

Your claim that "hunger" would make the Bangkokians uprise is a bit far sighted as food in Thailand is still extremely cheap and I don't see the middle class of Bangkok suffer from hunger.

It's not Africa you know.

LaoPo

[Thaddeus]

For 'Lao Po', re post # 420, where you say:

"...let's hope the rural people stay calm..."

I am more worried about the Bangkok people failing to stay calm when ther lifestyles cannot be supported any more. The first reaction to hunger tends to be anger.

What is happening in Greece is worrisome---and it is not the rural poor who have 'lost their cool'; nor even the urban poor; but the urban middle-class.

As energy depletes, 55 million Thai people in the Provinces won't be able to support 10 million in the hyper-urban primate city-captal. Bangkok's population needs to halve to 5 million over the next twenty years, and to halve again over the following twenty.

That is an enormous structural change, which, as you say, the present socio-political situation is ill-designed to cope with.

I disagree for the reason that Thailand has a workforce of some 38 million.

50% of that number or 18,5 million are working in agriculture and the average income is below Baht 3,500/month.

First the rural workers are losing their jobs, also in bangkok and will head home leaving the shops, restarants and other workplaces a lot more empty than they are now. Bangkok bosses will cut in work staff and the rural people will be the first to let go.

The comparison with Greece is not in place because it were the students who went into the streets first complaining about the devastating situation Greece is in.

The Thai students didn't hit the streets...yet.

Your claim that "hunger" would make the Bangkokians uprise is a bit far sighted as food in Thailand is still extremely cheap and I don't see the middle class of Bangkok suffer from hunger.

It's not Africa you know.

LaoPo

Quite right, this isn't Africa (which part of Africa did you mean btw)

LP, I seldom disagree with you, but can you at least see one other scenario.... the one where those 38 million workers all stick their middle digits up (and what is the total number of workers out of the total population) you're right, food is cheap, when it's plentiful and available, but what does the average Isaan farmer care about free trade agreements, import export deficits etc

He doesn't.

What happens if all of Isaan gives BKK the big <deleted> off?

The world monetary markets are screwed, not that they ever really existed on anything other than paper, the tourism industry isn't screwed, yet, but signs are that it will be....... food in Bangkok could get very expensive if Isaan just closed it's doors.

This of course is in the realms of fantasy .... but nothing that happens here surprises me anymore.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Thaddeus

[lannarebirth]

For 'Lao Po', re post # 420, where you say:

"...let's hope the rural people stay calm..."

I am more worried about the Bangkok people failing to stay calm when ther lifestyles cannot be supported any more. The first reaction to hunger tends to be anger.

What is happening in Greece is worrisome---and it is not the rural poor who have 'lost their cool'; nor even the urban poor; but the urban middle-class.

As energy depletes, 55 million Thai people in the Provinces won't be able to support 10 million in the hyper-urban primate city-captal. Bangkok's population needs to halve to 5 million over the next twenty years, and to halve again over the following twenty.

That is an enormous structural change, which, as you say, the present socio-political situation is ill-designed to cope with.

I disagree for the reason that Thailand has a workforce of some 38 million.

50% of that number or 18,5 million are working in agriculture and the average income is below Baht 3,500/month.

First the rural workers are losing their jobs, also in bangkok and will head home leaving the shops, restarants and other workplaces a lot more empty than they are now. Bangkok bosses will cut in work staff and the rural people will be the first to let go.

The comparison with Greece is not in place because it were the students who went into the streets first complaining about the devastating situation Greece is in.

The Thai students didn't hit the streets...yet.

Your claim that "hunger" would make the Bangkokians uprise is a bit far sighted as food in Thailand is still extremely cheap and I don't see the middle class of Bangkok suffer from hunger.

It's not Africa you know.

LaoPo

Quite right, this isn't Africa (which part of Africa did you mean btw)

LP, I seldom disagree with you, but can you at least see one other scenario.... the one where those 38 million workers all stick their middle digits up (and what is the total number of workers out of the total population) you're right, food is cheap, when it's plentiful and available, but what does the average Isaan farmer care about free trade agreements, import export deficits etc

He doesn't.

What happens if all of Isaan gives BKK the big <deleted> off?

The world monetary markets are screwed, not that they ever really existed on anything other than paper, the tourism industry isn't screwed, yet, but signs are that it will be....... food in Bangkok could get very expensive if Isaan just closed it's doors.

This of course is in the realms of fantasy .... but nothing that happens here surprises me anymore.

As the wife says,"even a blind dog doesn't starve in Thailand".

If the sociopolitical crisis described above comes to pass, I would expect that even more land would be turned over to farming. Heretofore Thailand leads no country that I am aware of in crop yields. A crisis should bring more intensive methods I should think, rather than the centuries old low yield that no one seems to care about now. Imagine if Isaan was farmed like the 1 acre plots some Chinese have to earn their livelihoods from.

[Johpa]

I hate to interrupt the British circle jerk here, but in case it has not been posted yet, I highly recommend the most recent musings of that dynamic tag team duo of Achaan Pasuk and Chris Baker, Thailand: Fighting for Democracy. Thanks to Andrew over at NM for the link.

[LaoPo]

Quite right, this isn't Africa (which part of Africa did you mean btw)

LP, I seldom disagree with you, but can you at least see one other scenario.... the one where those 38 million workers all stick their middle digits up (and what is the total number of workers out of the total population) you're right, food is cheap, when it's plentiful and available, but what does the average Isaan farmer care about free trade agreements, import export deficits etc

He doesn't.

What happens if all of Isaan gives BKK the big <deleted> off?

The world monetary markets are screwed, not that they ever really existed on anything other than paper, the tourism industry isn't screwed, yet, but signs are that it will be....... food in Bangkok could get very expensive if Isaan just closed it's doors.

This of course is in the realms of fantasy .... but nothing that happens here surprises me anymore.

I agree with you and I wrote about that nightmare before, meaning that IF the rural poor would stick up their middle finger, the whole country would end up in a big mess, the (people of) big city(ies) first.

That scenario is black, I know, but it's not an impossible scenario if the present government of Mr. Abhisit isn't able to control the country in a sense that unemployment would rise to unacceptable numbers.

I read that Abhisit was talking about planning mega projects and I think that's a necessity (like in the western countries but also in China) to create jobs for the unemployed.

We shouldn't forget that there are very dark periods on our path, in the US, in Europe, in China and in Oceania. I don't see how Thailand could possibly escape from the crisis to come.

The topic is about the PAD, intending to re-educate...to inform the rural poor about the government and political situation.

The problem with that is, they're a bit too late...about 5-6 decades, since Television entered almost every hut, small house and rice paddy.

Before that time nobody cared what was happening in Bangkok; they KNEW the country was ruled by the happy few hundred families and they couldn't do a single thing about it.

The masses however educated themselves and even more faster since internet, and....tourism.

Interesting times.

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

I hate to interrupt the British circle jerk here, but in case it has not been posted yet, I highly recommend the most recent musings of that dynamic tag team duo of Achaan Pasuk and Chris Baker,

Thailand: Fighting for Democracy. Thanks to Andrew over at NM for the link.

I second that and thank you so much for posting that link; an absolute must-read indeed.

LaoPo

[Thaddeus]

The masses however educated themselves and even more faster since internet, and....tourism.

Interesting times.

LaoPo

Yep, and that was one of the points I was alluding to..... five decades ago, most, if not all of the rural population had as much knowledge of the working of the country as an ant does about the moon .... some still don't even now, but a fair percentage do.

In the coming months/years, some will act because they now know they can have an effect, some will act just out of a sense of revenge for being downtrodden for so many years.

Exports are the lifeblood of Bangkok now ..... some need to get the coffee grinder out and inhale deeply

[Thai at Heart]

I hate to interrupt the British circle jerk here, but in case it has not been posted yet, I highly recommend the most recent musings of that dynamic tag team duo of Achaan Pasuk and Chris Baker, Thailand: Fighting for Democracy. Thanks to Andrew over at NM for the link.

A pretty realistic summation of the situation today and highlights probably the biggest problem which is the politicisation of the armed forces for the last 50 odd years.

As written, this situation will run and run and is currently in a lull.

[Plus]

I think this idea wasn't stressed enough in Baker's article:

"Politicians representing the provincial mass have reaped the gains that accrue to political inluence in the absence of a

strong judiciary and other checks and balances."

This is the segment of society that really has become empowered under Thaksin while the farmers were given an illusion, so everyone talks about political changes under TRT while nothing has really changed - it's all the same faces, all the same names, except that ten years ago they had no credibility and no influence but now they threaten the country with revolution if they don't get their way.

In the meantime segments that intially supported Thaksin's project quietly peeled away.

[Thai at Heart]

I think rural politicians would be very flattered by your estimation that they threaten the country through revolution.

If Thailand can't pull itself out of this mess it will probably be the PAD that will have been proven very successful in causing irreparable damage to the country.

There is a definite myopia in claiming what may have happened and using it as a scare tactic to claim legitimacy for the conduct of the PAD, and refusing to acknowledge the damage that the protests have already caused.

[Plus]

It's rural politicians who bring red crowds to Bangkok (including Newin), and it's rural politicians who threaten PPP defectors, it's rural politicians who are Thaksin's muscle now.

[LaoPo]

It's rural politicians who bring red crowds to Bangkok (including Newin), and it's rural politicians who threaten PPP defectors, it's rural politicians who are Thaksin's muscle now.

It's the rural people who represent the MAJORITY in Thailand, by FAR.

The elite, the Bangkok middle class and the military combined, supported by the xxxx represent a very small minority.

A lot of people seem to forget that.

Study history and one will find that a minority, no matter how long it takes, will always lose from the silent majority. Your so called red crowds and rural politicians are still in minority in comparison to the silent MAJORITY...one day.....one day, they will speak.

LaoPo

[Thai at Heart]

It's rural politicians who bring red crowds to Bangkok (including Newin), and it's rural politicians who threaten PPP defectors, it's rural politicians who are Thaksin's muscle now.

So your meaning is that none of the reds are doing this because they believe in what they are doing? The classic, they are all paid, they are sheep, they are unable to think for themselves, they are slaves to their political leaders. If people believe that for money you can get people to hurl bricks through windows of moving cars I fear you are underestimating the amount of passion and anger sitting in many reds minds and hearts.

I don't believe they are all paid any more than people claiming that NONE of the yellows were paid and as such they have some moral superiority for their conduct.

Underestimating the feelings of the reds and putting it down to 200 baht in their pocket is probably the biggest mistake that anyone can make in the current situation. The rural areas are sitting and waiting to see what is coming in the next couple of months. Fortunately, the Dems are right now stating that they will "Unveil populist policies". If they don't come up with the goods, I doubt very much the reds will need any prompting to protest and protest extremely vociferously. What would they have to lose?

[Plus]

If people believe that for money you can get people to hurl bricks through windows of moving cars...

No, it's not just money that they have been regularly getting for at least ten years, they have been brainwashed, too.

>>>>

Still, you are missing my point - these people have been serving their masters for generations and it hasn't changed a bit. Thirty years ago they hanged people on the trees and burned them alive at Sanam Luang because they've been brainwashed by their masters, and they still haven't evolved much, and their masters are still the same. The only difference that thirty years ago they were told that they were protecting the crown, not they are told they are protecting democracy.

I don't know how you can ignore the death of that unfortunate Red fellow who was given alcohol, a few fiery words, and sent to fight thousands of PAD guards, like a worthless pawn. Oh yes, he was convinced he was doing the right thing, the question is - who convinced him? Who put this poison in his mind? Who edges people to smash car windows with bricks? Who urges them to collect bags of shit and piss? Who organises and directs this uncivilised mob?

It's their same local bosses that have been lording over them since forever. The worst scum that Thai politics has ever produced.

[Thai at Heart]

If people believe that for money you can get people to hurl bricks through windows of moving cars...

No, it's not just money that they have been regularly getting for at least ten years, they have been brainwashed, too.

>>>>

Still, you are missing my point - these people have been serving their masters for generations and it hasn't changed a bit. Thirty years ago they hanged people on the trees and burned them alive at Sanam Luang because they've been brainwashed by their masters, and they still haven't evolved much, and their masters are still the same. The only difference that thirty years ago they were told that they were protecting the crown, not they are told they are protecting democracy.

I don't know how you can ignore the death of that unfortunate Red fellow who was given alcohol, a few fiery words, and sent to fight thousands of PAD guards, like a worthless pawn. Oh yes, he was convinced he was doing the right thing, the question is - who convinced him? Who put this poison in his mind? Who edges people to smash car windows with bricks? Who urges them to collect bags of shit and piss? Who organises and directs this uncivilised mob?

It's their same local bosses that have been lording over them since forever. The worst scum that Thai politics has ever produced.

I don't ignore the deaths on any of the sides. I am saying that I believe that this goes well beyond thinking that political paymasters are leading the reds blindly to their demise with the promise of 200 baht.

I again state that to believe "they haven't evolved much" decries the possibility that any of them believe in what they are doing. So are we to wait for the rural masses to be re-educated into their place? These are not zombies walking aimlessly to their death.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Thai at Heart

[jdinasia]

It's the rural people who represent the MAJORITY in Thailand, by FAR.

The elite, the Bangkok middle class and the military combined, supported by the xxxx represent a very small minority.

A lot of people seem to forget that.

LaoPo

lol

Pardon me? Care to give us all an education about numbers here?

[LaoPo]

It's the rural people who represent the MAJORITY in Thailand, by FAR.

The elite, the Bangkok middle class and the military combined, supported by the xxxx represent a very small minority.

A lot of people seem to forget that.

LaoPo

lol

Pardon me? Care to give us all an education about numbers here?

You're smart enough to find those numbers yourself but one small example can't hurt the audience Mr. jdinasia:

Thailand has 65 million people.

Of that number 38 million belong to the labor force in the country.

50% of that number or more than 18 million work in agriculture and have to live from an income of LESS than Baht 3,500 per MONTH

Those 18 million workers have a wife/husband, children.....

Please be so kind to add up the numbers yourself.

And, I'm talking just agriculture.

LaoPo

[jdinasia]

Lao Po --

Those numbers sure do not match what I see being posted elsewhere Please help us understand your numbers

[permanent_disorder]

Lao Po --

Those numbers sure do not match what I see being posted elsewhere Please help us understand your numbers

if you know it any better share your knowledge.

all your LOLs and smileys are just annoying and childish.

[LaoPo]

Lao Po --

Those numbers sure do not match what I see being posted elsewhere Please help us understand your numbers

If you will be so kind to let me know WHICH numbers are incorrect I am more than pleased to supply you with the necessary documentation.

I know there are MANY doubters on this forum....maybe they even doubt the population of Thailand, being ca. 65 million ?

In that case, I can't help you.

LaoPo

[jdinasia]

OK LaoPo

My questions

the 38 million you state as being included in the labor force--- does that include all people that include all wages?

the 50% in agriculture --- does that include all the folks in agriculture like rubber plantations etc?

the wages --- are those wages based upon anything other than crop sales of rice

Were you aware that rubber plants/manufacturers in the South were having labor problems because working on the plantations paid better because of raw rubber prices?

etc etc etc

You are tossing out incited numbers as facts across a VERY broad group of people.

and you fail to address who is this mysterious "the xxxx"?

[Chaimai]

Don't know if these help anybody:-

The following demographic statistics are from the CIA World Factbook

Population

Thailand has about 65,493,298 people.

From Asia Rooms.com

Thailand Population

The only country in South East Asia never to have been colonized, the kingdom of Siam named itself Thailand in May 11, 1949. In the Thai language, the word Thai means "freedom" and so Thailand means the "Land of the Free".

Besides the 33.7% of population that is Central Thai (including Bangkok), the Northeastern Thai / Lao / Isan comprise 34.2%. The rest id made up of Southern Thai ( 13.3%) and Northern Thai ( 18.8%).

According to 2006 estimates these are the demographic figures for Thailand:

Population: 64,631,595

Population Density: 126 people per sq km

Population Growth Rate: 0.68%

Thailand is a farming-dependent country making the transition from an agricultural to an industrial-based economy. Almost 68% of the people of Thailand live in villages, despite the current trend of migration from the villages to the capital of Bangkok.

WORKFORCE:

With one-fourths of the population under the age of 15, the work force now has more than 34.1 million people. And the population by 2010 is expected to cross 70 million. Of these, the majority of the population comprises people less than 30 years old.

[Chaimai]

and you fail to address who is this mysterious "the xxxx"?

<deleted> ???

Good effort, JD, at bringing this topic to a (welcome) conclusion

[LaoPo]

OK LaoPo

My questions

the 38 million you state as being included in the labor force--- does that include all people that include all wages?

the 50% in agriculture --- does that include all the folks in agriculture like rubber plantations etc?

and you fail to address who is this mysterious "the xxxx"?

Numbers from CIA World Fact Book:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...eos/th.html#top

Thailand Population: 65,493,296

note: estimates for this country explicitly take into account the effects of excess mortality due to AIDS; this can result in lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality, higher death rates, lower population growth rates, and changes in the distribution of population by age and sex than would otherwise be expected (July 2008 est.)

Labor force: 36.9 million (2007 est.)

Labor force - by occupation: agriculture: 49% (=18.08 Million work foce in agriculture)

Agricultural wage of employed persons as of Q4 - 2007:

1. agriculture, hunting and forestry Baht 3.420

2. Fishing Baht 4.734

Thai labour wages agriculture (blue line) versus non-agriculture (red line)

from:

http://thaicrisis.wordpress.com/2008/04/03...m-2002-to-2007/

whilst writing this post I found more -interesting- details about the wages in Q1 and Q2 in 2008:

the wages for Q1 and #1 (above) rose to Baht 5.286/month and dropped again to Baht 3,732/month in Q2. Quite a heavy drop if you ask me.

Average monthly wage of employees, per quarter, from Q1 2002 to Q4 2007

from:

http://thaicrisis.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/wagesdatas.jpg

You are trying to catch me asking more detailed information, knowing that I am not able to have answers to that, like asking if workers in rubber plantations are included in agriculture. The same for your question: "the wages --- are those wages based upon anything other than crop sales of rice"

Those questions are childish and you know it and not worthy from an adult, taking part in a discussion.

You are always very very good in delivering counter messages whereby you always claim to know the truth, WITHOUT ever giving evidence or quoting official sources yourself.

Well, you asked for information and I gave it to you but I have no expectations that you will accept those numbers, will you ?

Oh, about your question: "and you fail to address who is this mysterious "the xxxx"?: answer: click on Forum rules, third sentence.

Now, Jdinasia, what about YOUR sources that will prove I'm mistaken ?

If you are up to asking more questions about numbers and percentages, I suggest you write to the official departments in Thailand, responsible for those numbers.

I did that myself recently about tourism numbers, and guess what ?

I got an answer within 24 hours and was quite satisfied.

Now, try to be a MAN and give me a plausible intellectual answer, not bs.

Do you still remember WHY I posted my message...? the Topic is about rural Thai.....

LaoPo

[Plus]

I again state that to believe "they haven't evolved much" decries the possibility that any of them believe in what they are doing.

You missed my point - yes, they beleive in their cause, the problem is they don't know how uncivilised and primitive their "protests" are. Basically they don't know what they are doing, same as in that Jesus quote. They deserve forgiveness, but not their masters, who are the primary beneficiaries of these protests.

As for the majority of PPP voters - I don't think they support red's violent activism and I don't think they believe in it and I doubt reds would have numbers to sustain their protests, even though they plan a three day sit-in at Sanam Luang now.

And, of course, there's cynical Newin with his "you give them 100 billion they'd love you more than Thaksin" policy proposal. Straight out of the horse's mouth.