P A D -bkk Protesters Aim To ‘re-educate’ Rural Thais

[cmsally]

Has anyone seriously thought about Sondhi being a communist.

Just take maybe a minute to see how the idea melts into available situation and his mindset and see what picture you come up with.

Apologies if it gives you nightmares.

[jdinasia]

No- most of us caught the part where an interviewee suggested ASTV as a recommended curriculum. But you're right- the speaker didn't mean 're-educated- he actually meant 'brainwashed'.

I think the word you are really looking for is "deprogrammed". The brainwashing occurred 2001-2006

edit--- and continues even today with Call-in statements at government stadiums on government media channels filled with red-shirted folks listening to a convicted man on the run from the courts!

Edited December 1, 2008 by jdinasia

[grandpops]

"Rural people are blinded by corrupt media and need to listen to ASTV," said Thanapol Buranasombati, a protester, referring to Sondhi's station that broadcasts the rallies around the clock. "When the poor farmers know the truth about what is happening they will side with us."

If somebody doesn't die laughing at this they should.

And this from an "Educated" Thai!

[ironhut]

MERCENARY

Sir Walter Raliegh defined a mercenary back in the early 1600's as being "‘Seditious unfaithful disobedient destroyers of all places and countries whither they are drawn as being held by no other bond than their own commodity".

I won't take a pro-government or anti-government stance on the matter, but I believe this term and definition more accurately defines many of the PAD and UDD than any of the other terms I've heard. Sorry,...but Patriots, Terrorists, Protestors, and some of the other countless descriptive terms for the Reds and Yellows don't quite nail what is going on here.

As the definition above indicates, the commodity of many of these greedy souls (to the tune of between 500-1000 THB per day plus food by all estimates) is destroying Thailand out of a conservative estimate of $150 million tourist dollars per day. The unfortunate issue is that this daily loss to the Thai economy and its citizens will continue perhaps for decades...which is indeed very sad for the Thai people who are mostly ashamed and embarrassed due to the minority of mercenaries who are somehow allowed to represent them and their country.

Although violence is never a solution high on anyone's list, the latest lack of force displayed by Thai authorities is like watching passive parents of extremely disobedient children...kids who decide it's their right to destroy anything or anyone in their path while their parents look onward and assume no responsibility for destruction due to their passive beliefs.

I'm saddened deeply by this whole mess on all sides.

[animatic]

Has anyone seriously thought about Sondhi being a communist.

Just take maybe a minute to see how the idea melts into available situation and his mindset and see what picture you come up with.

Apologies if it gives you nightmares.

Considering he has made and lost two fortunes using high capitalist methods,

and made once Thaksin 500 MILLION baht prior to '97,

it really seems HIGHLY unlikely he has even the slightest communistic inklings.

It seem more likely you hate PAD so much, that you are willing to impose most

ANY damning western insult on them...

Sad. I've always thought your posts were at a higher level than this...

[LaoPo]

It is a fallacy to analyse present troubles as based on class system

By BY THANONG KHANTHONG

THE NATION

Published on December 1, 2008

SEVERAL THAI ACADEMICS and most foreign media have got stuck in the generalisation that the Thai crisis manifests a confrontation between rural and urban voters. This makes it sound as if Thailand is facing a deep-rooted class-system problem.

The mantra is that the Bangkok middle-class do not accept the will and aspiration of the rural people, who have cast their votes. "I only have one vote. Why don't the Bangkok people respect my vote? Aren't I a Thai?" cries an Isaan voter. The elite are envious of Thaksin's success with the poor. Thaksin is popular because he introduced populist programmes such as the village fund and healthcare that improve the life of the poor while governments in the past failed to look after their welfare. The elite and the military would like to keep things as they are in order to protect their status and privileges. The elite are afraid of Thaksin's popularity with the majority of Thais.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/01...on_30089863.php

Excellent article, many good points and references,

the main point is on the mark.

No doubt the usual suspects will scream about Nation's 'perceived' bias

and use that to write it off rather than THINK about it.

Their loss.

.WHY are you saying that ? If someone doesn't agree with your view it's ''their loss'' ?

Your views are respected Animatic but to claim here that others' views are at loss is not correct and you know it. You are positioning yourself with such claim as being/feeling superior to others here on TV and that Animatic, is something I would never write...NEVER.

Mr. Thanong Khanthong, editor at The Nation is a respected intellectual journalist/writer but a major part of the content he wrote this time in an article is VERY biased and pro-elite/intellectual and complete BS.

He claims that Thailand has no classes. Really ?

He is correct if the type of class system isn't here in comparison to the caste-system in India (and former France...what has France to do with it ?) but to say that there are no classes is absolute nonsense.

Instead he says: "Rather Thailand is a status-conscious society."... as if that would be any different than a class system or class conscious or not. Sorry but that is nonsense.

"With this status-conscious society, Thais traditionally respect the military, civil servants and teachers." Could it be ''afraid'' in the sense our parents had ''respect'' for the same as they had for doctors, police, military, civil servants and teachers ?

The kind of respect Thanong is talking about is called "afraid" !

He writes that it is possible for farmers' children -rural Thai- to "raise their status and merge into the Bangkok or military elite if they are capable.".

Unbelievable, what a bull; as if a poor farmer is able to send his son or daughter to university or military academy in Bangkok with a monthly income of less than Baht 3,500/month.

Animatic: do you realize that there is a workforce in Thailand of some 37 million people and that some 50% or 18,5 Million work in agriculture and that those workers make not even Baht 3,500/month ?

.....raise their status.....if daddy makes Baht 3,500/month

"Bangkok has never denied the provinces. That's why Thai society has been relatively spared the conflict between the rich and the poor. It is also true that central governments in the past have ignored the interests of the poor., but this has been largely due to self-interest rather than any conscious urban/rural divide as seen in a class system."

Don't make me laugh......Bangkok has ALWAYS denied the provinces and of course there wasn't any conflict because the poor didn't have the power nor money to raise their voices and OF COURSE the governments have ignored the interests of the poor for decades and centuries and OF COURSE it was due to self-interest of the rich and elite....No conscious urban/rural divide......? Maybe not visible but certainly sub-conscious and sleeping/slumber anger

The writer than speaks of ''commoners'' but I'll leave it here as it is not allowed to discuss other than to mention that these commoners were not so common as he wants us to believe.

He also writes as if Sondhi didn't come from a distinct family but his family had money enough to send him to the USA for education. A farmer can't send his son to the US or UK for education.

I disagree -for a great part- with the content Mr. Thanong has written in his article and he's unworthy the intellectual he is or claims to be.

In fact he writes exactly the way the PAD is trying to steer the rural poor and the country in general...: "The elite and the military would like to keep things as they are in order to protect their status and privileges."

LaoPo

Edited December 1, 2008 by LaoPo

[farseer]

Just listen to the rubbish that the PAD leaders say to their followers, they are brainwashing them to believe in some kind of communistic self appointed government nonsense. Democracy not allowed, freedom of speech not allowed, freedom of movement not allowed and Sondhi's secret police spying on everyone 24/7. And these self appointed minsters will be just as corrupt as any before them but with a twist, you won't be able to get rid of them once they are in power.

Sondhi seems to like the power and attention that he is getting, it can be extremely addictive. And who is he trying to impersonate, Indiana Jones with that stupid hat that he always seems to be wearing.

[animatic]

Nothing is very pretty,

but the alternative is not even up to nasty,

it slides quickly down to abysmal.

Animatic, you wrote in another post (which I can't locate right now) something to the effect that you feel it right to go in the same direction as PAD while not sharing all their goals - do correct me if I'm misrepresenting what you said in any material way.

The direction was there prior to PAD's existence. It just was un-articulated by most,

and it is coincidense that PAD has gone this path. But agreeing on a few concepts is not agreeing on all

and has ABSOLUTELY nothing tomdo with zealotry as you put it.

That being the case (and because you appear to be the thinker/philosopher among the pro-PAD zealots here), I would remind you that history is littered with examples of those moderates who hitched a ride with those "going in the same direction" - and then couldn't get off.

Yes moderates, reviled by both extremes, and yet often the one place where both sides ALSO find ideas.

Moderates don't oftn create great changes or sea shifts in public finction, but they often are the anchor that keeps, or returns those swings

of random fortune to some sustainable center.

For myself, I don't need to check out the track-record of General Pallop Pinmanee or summon up images of other "re-educations" (Khmer Rouge, Red Guards etc) to be more than a little perturbed by what I read in the PAD leader's paper that Plus recommended as the "horse's mouth".

I don't like the word "re-educate"'s extremist connotations, and it seems MOST here onoly acknowlege those extremes.

Many who go from high school to univeristy suddenly find they ARE truly re-educated to more open minded ideas.

In some societies it can also be called "Continuing Education". The adults of a community searching for increased knowlege,

long after their school days are passed.

I've mentioned before that I find the notion that a weakened/discredited Thaksin could now come back and re-assume power really difficult to credit.

I also think that, BUT Thaksin himself clearly doesn't , as long as HE sees it as possible,

he wiil twist the knife in Thailands gut, and THAT it the scary part of out current interesting times...

76 bil baht frozens says this isn't ending

Assume, just for argument's sake, that he can and does; just how long do you think the military would leave him there? Yet this is the "boogey man" argument that you reach for every time to justify most (all?) the agenda of PAD and their not-so-hidden-hand feudal backers.

This has gone way beyond fuedal backers, the populace on both sides of the divid are awakened

~Thaksin was acting equally feudalist. Actual FEUD is a perfect word for this. Again 76 billion is a goal he can't ignore.

On the positive side, I can maybe see one good thing coming from this mess. Corruption (in many of its forms, anyway) is now way up there in the consciousness of many more Thai people than before.

Agreed, but I think it always WAS up there, but there was never any group to hitch a wagon too to FIGHT it effectively.

I think PAD did brilliantly use that issue among others to build a base. Mis-use of that base is another issue,

but I think the core desire, just needed leadership to voice their existing wants.

Maybe, just maybe, because of this catharsis the next election will be that significant bit cleaner and more Thai people will take seriously the "say no to vote-buying" TV and print campaign that runs before elections here - and realise that the 100/200 baht they can get from candidates works out to be a high price to pay for the new road to their village getting only half-built or the new school costing twice what it should..............

and all the myriad examples of higher-level corruption you can cite.

One can but hope, I am sure those grannies at the rally would like their grandchildren to have safer schools and better lives.

Ridding the country of all corruption isn't going to ahppen, but backing it off to tolerable is viable.

Education should include that:

Voting booths with no political canvaser over-viewing,

with multiple ballots so the voters camera phone can take a 'faux picture of what the payer wants to see'

and the then voter votes as he or she thinks is a great idea. Fool the bastards at their own game.

And free flow of information to ALL voters. No beatings of ANY political speaker anywhere in the country.

If that proved to be the case, even I might think the current mess and turmoil could turn out to have been worthwhile - just.

But dropping power firmly into the hands of PAD & Co with their agenda - to me that looks more and more like tipping out the baby with the bath water.

I don't see anyone expecting PAD to take control of government via election.

I think many, especially farhangs, FEAR that, because the don't fit some western mold for activists.

I think the PAD senior leadership will not be walking around loose to do this on New Years.

And the next generation of PAD leaders will move in a much different direction.

Much as they did after the original Thaksin exit.

I think this all comes down to Thaksin's moves after tomorrows court functions.

Really can't say much till the justices speak and the redshirts howl.

I have some anthropological training and some social observation training,

and lived on 3 continents and in several cultures. I don't pretend to know and see all.

But I do see a few things that don't appear opaque to me. If I see something written

that I don't believes reflects my observations, I see no reason NOT to comment in opposition.

But I am not a zealot for either side or cause.

[pammy123]

PEOPLE AGAINST DEMOCRACY EDUCATE!!!!!!!!!

Yes they will educate to the poorer Thai society that they are poor and should remain that way!

PAD LEADERS ARE GUILTY OF TREASON ANARCHY AND GROSS VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION

[animatic]

It is a fallacy to analyse present troubles as based on class system

By BY THANONG KHANTHONG

THE NATION

Published on December 1, 2008

SEVERAL THAI ACADEMICS and most foreign media have got stuck in the generalisation that the Thai crisis manifests a confrontation between rural and urban voters. This makes it sound as if Thailand is facing a deep-rooted class-system problem.

The mantra is that the Bangkok middle-class do not accept the will and aspiration of the rural people, who have cast their votes. "I only have one vote. Why don't the Bangkok people respect my vote? Aren't I a Thai?" cries an Isaan voter. The elite are envious of Thaksin's success with the poor. Thaksin is popular because he introduced populist programmes such as the village fund and healthcare that improve the life of the poor while governments in the past failed to look after their welfare. The elite and the military would like to keep things as they are in order to protect their status and privileges. The elite are afraid of Thaksin's popularity with the majority of Thais.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/01...on_30089863.php

Excellent article, many good points and references,

the main point is on the mark.

No doubt the usual suspects will scream about Nation's 'perceived' bias

and use that to write it off rather than THINK about it.

Their loss.

.WHY are you saying that ? If someone doesn't agree with your view it's ''their loss'' ?

Your views are respected Animatic but to claim here that others' views are at loss is not correct and you know it. You are positioning yourself with such claim as being/feeling superior to others here on TV and that Animatic, is something I would never write...NEVER.

Mr. Thanong Khanthong, editor at The Nation is a respected intellectual journalist/writer but a major part of the content he wrote this time in an article is VERY biased and pro-elite/intellectual and complete BS.

He claims that Thailand has no classes. Really ?

He is correct if the type of class system isn't here in comparison to the caste-system in India (and former France...what has France to do with it ?) but to say that there are no classes is absolute nonsense.

Instead he says: "Rather Thailand is a status-conscious society."... as if that would be any different than a class system or class conscious or not. Sorry but that is nonsense.

"With this status-conscious society, Thais traditionally respect the military, civil servants and teachers." Could it be ''afraid'' in the sense our parents had ''respect'' for the same as they had for doctors, police, military, civil servants and teachers ?

The kind of respect Thanong is talking about is called "afraid" !

He writes that it is possible for farmers' children -rural Thai- to "raise their status and merge into the Bangkok or military elite if they are capable.".

Unbelievable, what a bull; as if a poor farmer is able to send his son or daughter to university or military academy in Bangkok with a monthly income of less than Baht 3,500/month.

Animatic: do you realize that there is a workforce in Thailand of some 37 million people and that some 50% or 18,5 Million work in agriculture and that those workers make not even Baht 3,500/month ?

.....raise their status.....if daddy makes Baht 3,500/month

"Bangkok has never denied the provinces. That's why Thai society has been relatively spared the conflict between the rich and the poor. It is also true that central governments in the past have ignored the interests of the poor., but this has been largely due to self-interest rather than any conscious urban/rural divide as seen in a class system."

Don't make me laugh......Bangkok has ALWAYS denied the provinces and of course there wasn't any conflict because the poor didn't have the power nor money to raise their voices and OF COURSE the governments have ignored the interests of the poor for decades and centuries and OF COURSE it was due to self-interest of the rich and elite....No conscious urban/rural divide......? Maybe not visible but certainly sub-conscious and sleeping/slumber anger

The writer than speaks of ''commoners'' but I'll leave it here as it is not allowed to discuss other than to mention that these commoners were not so common as he wants us to believe.

He also writes as if Sondhi didn't come from a distinct family but his family had money enough to send him to the USA for education. A farmer can't send his son to the US or UK for education.

I disagree -for a great part- with the content Mr. Thanong has written in his article and he's unworthy the intellectual he is or claims to be.

In fact he writes exactly the way the PAD is trying to steer the rural poor and the country in general...: "The elite and the military would like to keep things as they are in order to protect their status and privileges."

LaoPo

So LaoPo did I say ALL that disagree with me. No.

I said, "The Usual Suspects", because some here clearly write off all comments

from the Nation as fiction, because THEIR bias iagainst it is so blindingly strong.

So it IS their loss if they don't bother to THINK about it.

~I said nothing about my point of view being disputed, you said that.

As to Thailand having no classes,

I pose that Thailand has as nearly equal classes as it has people.

The national pass time is determining each others individual status vs anyone else nearby.

IT IS INGRAINED TO THE CORE.

65 million classes,

and all in total flux compared to the one just above or below at any given time.

I believe that this was the essence of this writer's concept. By dint of intelligence and perserverence,

the less advantaged can rise above. It just doesn't hold that ANY individual WILL rise above most others.

This has much to do with the rise of 'a middle class', which isn't a consolidated whole,

but many thousands of individual levels of social acheivement.

And for the record I have hired around 4 dozen up country workers from time to time.

For extended periods, and between harvests. Paid them 50% above the prevailing wage,

provided water electricity and housing and a satalite TV for 2 years, particularly during HRM Juibaliee.

Bought the beer and Lao Kao on off days and hoisted glasses with them. Lent them personal motorcycles

to do the shopping, with the proviso; you break, you fix it. And give them all respect as people with talents.

Some are on different jobs here still, but when I see them I always get big, genuine smiles, and they come to shake hands.

So I think I have a clue about up country people too.

Edited December 1, 2008 by animatic

[Bangyai]

[yes ... there is a severe lack of anything BUT the party-line media outlets available upcountry to the vast majority of the poor. Watching people take the re-education statement out of context is almost humorous though (almost -- because some folks actually didn't read what was written and just grabbed that one line)

Thats interesting , I've always taken you for one of the ' urban effete ' JD, didn't know you'd also done time in the boonies getting down and dirty with the rural poor. Must have been a pretty isolated place though.? Plenty of the homes in the village I used to live in now have satellite dishes and some have really pushed the boat out and have a pat lom as well !! You would be surprised how knowledgeable some of them are. The image of a bunch of dimwit yokels huddling around a candle trying to tune it into ASTV doesn't really bring back any memories

wow lao pen bo ?

[animatic]

[yes ... there is a severe lack of anything BUT the party-line media outlets available upcountry to the vast majority of the poor. Watching people take the re-education statement out of context is almost humorous though (almost -- because some folks actually didn't read what was written and just grabbed that one line)

Thats interesting , I've always taken you for one of the ' urban effete ' JD, didn't know you'd also done time in the boonies getting down and dirty with the rural poor. Must have been a pretty isolated place though.? Plenty of the homes in the village I used to live in now have satellite dishes and some have really pushed the boat out and have a pat lom as well !! You would be surprised how knowledgeable some of them are. The image of a bunch of dimwit yokels huddling around a candle trying to tune it into ASTV doesn't really bring back any memories

wow lao pen bo ?

Banger, you must admit that outside communication you describe IS a rather more recent phenomenon.

And until ASTV, Thaksin's satalite controled WHICH channels got broadcast.

This has changed with ASTV and Shinsats sale. in the last rather few years.

[Steve2UK]

Animatic, perhaps an oversight, but you completely ignored a key question I asked you:

I've mentioned before that I find the notion that a weakened/discredited Thaksin could now come back and re-assume power really difficult to credit. Assume, just for argument's sake, that he can and does; just how long do you think the military would leave him there? Yet this is the "boogey man" argument that you reach for every time to justify most (all?) the agenda of PAD and their not-so-hidden-hand feudal backers.

[LaoPo]

So LaoPo did I say ALL that disagree with me. No.

I said, "The Usual Suspects", because some here clearly write off all comments

from the Nation as fiction, because THEIR bias iagainst it is so blindingly strong.

So it IS their loss if they don't bother to THINK about it.

~I said nothing about my point of view being disputed, you said that.

As to Thailand having no classes,

I pose that Thailand has as nearly equal classes as it has people.

The national pass time is determining each others individual status vs anyone else nearby.

IT IS INGRAINED TO THE CORE.

65 million classes,

and all in total flux compared to the one just above or below at any given time.

I believe that this was the essence of this writer's concept. By dint of intelligence and perserverence,

the less advantaged can rise above. It just doesn't hold that ANY individual WILL rise above most others.

This has much to do with the rise of 'a middle class', which isn't a consolidated whole,

but many thousands of individual levels of social acheivement.

And for the record I have hired around 4 dozen up country workers from time to time.

For extended periods, and between harvests. Paid them 50% above the prevailing wage,

provided water electricity and housing and a satalite TV for 2 years, particularly during HRM Juibaliee.

Bought the beer and Lao Kao on off days and hoisted glasses with them. Lent them personal motorcycles

to do the shopping, with the proviso; you break, you fix it. And give them all respect as people with talents.

Some are on different jobs here still, but when I see them I always get big, genuine smiles, and they come to shake hands.

So I think I have a clue about up country people too.

Even if ''they'' are the usual suspects......does that mean that if they do not agree with you they are at loss ? Are you the Judge to tell if someone is at loss or not ?

Why do you -constantly- impose yourself as knowing better than others ? Do you have a list who is "they" and do I belong to that "they" group now as well ?

Sorry, but your "65 million classes" is nonsense and you know it. You just write so because you are avoiding my points.

I wasn't talking about your "having a clue" or not and if you hired 4 dozen upcountry workers or not. Big proud man you must be.

But maybe it cleansed your conscious when you paid them 50% above the prevailing wages, which are still so bloody low,............... like my father used to say: "Too much to die and to little to starve to death". Why didn't you hire workers from Samui...or are they too expensive ?

You are way off topic in the OP which was about the PAD, claiming it's time to re-educate rural Thai and the article written by Mr. Phanong, claiming it was very possible for children of rural people to enter the elite......

In fact he wrote:

"Any rural Thais can raise their status and merge into the Bangkok or military elite if they are capable. The Bangkok middle-class, the military and the elite are not exclusive clubs." Really ?

If it wasn't so sad and absurd what he wrote in that article, I would laugh tears...

But, of course you agree with Mr. Phanong and THUS are "they" at loss.

I think you are at loss since you wrote: "because THEIR bias against it is so blindingly strong.".....what about you ?

I think you are blindingly strong biased PRO-PAD and you couldn't be more wrong; the future will prove so.

LaoPo

[jdinasia]

[yes ... there is a severe lack of anything BUT the party-line media outlets available upcountry to the vast majority of the poor. Watching people take the re-education statement out of context is almost humorous though (almost -- because some folks actually didn't read what was written and just grabbed that one line)

Thats interesting , I've always taken you for one of the ' urban effete ' JD, didn't know you'd also done time in the boonies getting down and dirty with the rural poor. Must have been a pretty isolated place though.? Plenty of the homes in the village I used to live in now have satellite dishes and some have really pushed the boat out and have a pat lom as well !! You would be surprised how knowledgeable some of them are. The image of a bunch of dimwit yokels huddling around a candle trying to tune it into ASTV doesn't really bring back any memories

wow lao pen bo ?

Great some satellite dishes in your village! (must be the 'elite') but help us out, how many news agencies are on these Satellite packages that are not owned by the Government or answer to the government AND broadcast news in Thai?

as for your 'urban effete' remark ... classy!

Edited December 1, 2008 by jdinasia

[dtarasin]

"If they win what they have dubbed their “final battle,” Bangkok-based People’s Alliance for Democracy members say they will start a campaign to tell “the truth” to the country’s rural majority..."

Hmmm. Maybe they should have thought of that BEFORE they went in to the airports, holding the country hostage, and eliminating any chance of support they could have from the rural majority.

They DID try that many times,

but TRT and PPP controled mobs broke up the rally's QUITE violently...

Go read up on it.

Hense they were forced to use other measures.

Not all of which I can agree with.

.

Did I say to do it by rallying? There's plenty of ways of educating the rural population that doesn't involve confrontation. And "educating" shouldn't just mean telling them why they should be against the PPP, but also why they should be FOR the Democrats, ie. let them know how you're going to make their lives better.

[Nostraforce]

Just read the Nation article but I don't get this line where he argues about class differences that:

Thailand does not inherently suffer from this problem. Its more a problem of social status and income distribution

Well it seems that a low social status and poor positioning in income distribution go hand in hand with being low class, but this article is basically just a rejection of the word 'class' not a very broad subject for an article.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Nostraforce

[dtarasin]

Apparently there are a lot of people who think that vote buying and selling by poor, often uneducated people, is a normal thing.

It surprises me that election-fraud is a kind of accepted.

Why do PAD supporters keep bringing up this "vote-buying" excuse? Let me ask you something... if these people were just voting in the PPP/Thaksin/UDD because of money, does that mean their political allegiances were different before they were bought?

You're accusing them of vote-buying, which essentially means to gaurantee people to be on your side by paying them. So, if the corrupt politicians weren't paying them, what side were they originally on? Were they PAD supporters who got bought? Also, do you really think the Redshirts would be so committed to their cause if they were only being paid 500 baht per day to do this?

Do you see how this "vote-buying" excuse falls apart? PAD supporters are always using this vote-buying excuse, but they never entertain the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the Redshirts are there because they support their politicians.

Edited December 1, 2008 by dtarasin

[animatic]

I've been thinking about this situation more calmly and have changed some of my assertions. I now think the PAD started out with good intentions and even now genuinely think they are doing the right thing without ill intent. If one can trust the court ruled justly and Thaksin is a wanted Fugitive then he nor any proxy of his should hold such a high ranking position in the government. That is a legitimate grievance. I do think something radical needed to be done to blow past the usual Mai Bphen Rai and apathy that is rampant in this country and in some ways the seizure of the airport was tactically very clever. However they are now tilting towards a fascist extreme, arresting police and insisting only they hold the gauntlet of truth. Using terms like reeducation shows the bias has titled to far and they are becoming the very wrong they condemn.

It is also interesting how Buddhist the whole thing is being handled. So far this hasn't gotten violent and I really would like to see it stay that way. We can all pretty much chuckle that TIT is Thailand as long as no mass riot or mob on mob fights go down.

Wasabi, it is nice see to someone put thoughts into gear

rather than take a position and never deviate as things are learned.

In my observations of political movements, not 'the groups' but 'the actual changes'

I have noticed that most groups push for some goal beyond what they actually want,

so when shove comes back onto push it actual comes to rest,

somewhere near where they really want to be.

So I don't think PAD 'really expects' a fascist society to arise from their efforts,

but only a less corrupt one without Thaksin's neo-proto-fascist hand continually stirring troubles.

[jdinasia]

Why do PAD supporters keep bringing up this "vote-buying" excuse?

Excuse? Election Fraud is why the courts are involved in the Thaksin/TRT/PPP stuff AGAIN. Why call them elections if vote buying is OK? Please, if vote buying isn't going to be an issue for you then don't bother mentioning elections or democracy again. Then the question becomes Thaksin and Corruption alone (and since he's been convicted of abuse of power .....and has cases pending .... and is on the run to escape serving his sentence ...)

[dtarasin]

Why do PAD supporters keep bringing up this "vote-buying" excuse?

Excuse? Election Fraud is why the courts are involved in the Thaksin/TRT/PPP stuff AGAIN. Why call them elections if vote buying is OK? Please, if vote buying isn't going to be an issue for you then don't bother mentioning elections or democracy again. Then the question becomes Thaksin and Corruption alone (and since he's been convicted of abuse of power .....and has cases pending .... and is on the run to escape serving his sentence ...)

Did I say anywhere in my post that vote-buying is ok? Do you ever ask yourself that there's a possibility that the politicians are just giving money to voters who would've voted for them anyway?

PAD uses vote-buying like it's the only reason the PPP are in power.

Politicians make promises to do things that's important to the voters they want to win. Either they say they'll lower your taxes, help you build schools, give you free healthcare, or give you money. That's a fact of life.

I'm not saying vote-buying is ok, or that vote-buying doesn't exist. All I'm saying is that the PAD/Democrats should stop complaining about WHY they keep losing, and find out HOW they can win.

And in case you haven't figured it out already, I'm anti-PPP, too. I'm just not pro-PAD.

But then again, I guess your poor, uneducated mind cannot grasp the reality that there more than two sides to every story.

(yeah, I called you uneducated. Does that fire you up? That's what happens when you call people uneducated).

Edited December 1, 2008 by dtarasin

[animatic]

Animatic, perhaps an oversight, but you completely ignored a key question I asked you:

I've mentioned before that I find the notion that a weakened/discredited Thaksin could now come back and re-assume power really difficult to credit. Assume, just for argument's sake, that he can and does; just how long do you think the military would leave him there? Yet this is the "boogey man" argument that you reach for every time to justify most (all?) the agenda of PAD and their not-so-hidden-hand feudal backers.

Yes, I believe over sight, and maybe over medicated at that time.

Just had a small hospital stay and some lingering pain.

Both fore fingers don't bend to type and my toe is killing me.

Other than the zealot appellation, which I disagree with,

I do appreciate the Thinker/Philosopher bit.

Actually you put my cart before my horse.

It is not wanting Thaksin returning that is more

the issue for me than PADS shenanigans being justified.

You seem to think I think it's PAD as the reason and Thaksin the excuse.

A la contraire.

Not really sure how long he might be left in.

I think that really would depend on how he got in there,

and how vindictive he acted once in control.

Just doing the job, might give him some time,

but I doubt he could adequately restrain himself.

It's a trait not well displayed in his public nature.

His past track record of stepping on toes and slapping faces metaphorically

and authoritarian propensity wouldn't auger too well for a long tenure...

Potjamin's exit doesn't speak well for her expectations of his comeback....

I recently have been thinking her calculation was greatly scewed towards basic survival...

She's no Eva Braun type at all.

The chances to change the constitution to forgive all are quickly sliding past.

If it isn't done with a 'semblance of elected propriety' no matter how corrupted

it stands little chance of passing muster with most 'even minded folks'.

Which one must agree is the great majority of the country.

If he tries to field some form of counter coup to use as leverage,

that would be as treasonous, and disastrous, as most any action of any Thai over history.

He of course will couch it in terms of returning savior, etc, etc. We know his dialectic.

And he would only hold the PM, president or whatever name he calls himself by force.

No pretense of bulk public support, then it would come down to armed services factions.

Where the airforce goes, so goes the government to some extent.

As was noted one coup abruptly ended by the flight of 4 bombers

at 1000 feet over Bangkok with full bomb loads.

A message that can't be ignored.

How long... ah a good question!

Maybe as long as the amount of fungable assets, Potjamin flew out right after the coup,

that left for London in those 96 suitcases, take to run out...

But really there are too many variables to assess. All as opaque as Mekong mud.

Edited December 1, 2008 by animatic

[animatic]

"If they win what they have dubbed their “final battle,” Bangkok-based People’s Alliance for Democracy members say they will start a campaign to tell “the truth” to the country’s rural majority..."

Hmmm. Maybe they should have thought of that BEFORE they went in to the airports, holding the country hostage, and eliminating any chance of support they could have from the rural majority.

They DID try that many times,

but TRT and PPP controled mobs broke up the rally's QUITE violently...

Go read up on it.

Hense they were forced to use other measures.

Not all of which I can agree with.

.

Did I say to do it by rallying? There's plenty of ways of educating the rural population that doesn't involve confrontation. And "educating" shouldn't just mean telling them why they should be against the PPP, but also why they should be FOR the Democrats, ie. let them know how you're going to make their lives better.

PPP didn't even exist then...

Having a stage and talking publicly was enough to get a beating back then,

if you disagreed with Thaksin's programs. Dems, PAD or ANY disenting voices.

Simple as that. Go read up on it.

[dtarasin]

"If they win what they have dubbed their “final battle,” Bangkok-based People’s Alliance for Democracy members say they will start a campaign to tell “the truth” to the country’s rural majority..."

Hmmm. Maybe they should have thought of that BEFORE they went in to the airports, holding the country hostage, and eliminating any chance of support they could have from the rural majority.

They DID try that many times,

but TRT and PPP controled mobs broke up the rally's QUITE violently...

Go read up on it.

Hense they were forced to use other measures.

Not all of which I can agree with.

.

Did I say to do it by rallying? There's plenty of ways of educating the rural population that doesn't involve confrontation. And "educating" shouldn't just mean telling them why they should be against the PPP, but also why they should be FOR the Democrats, ie. let them know how you're going to make their lives better.

PPP didn't even exist then...

Having a stage and talking publicly was enough to get a beating back then,

if you disagreed with Thaksin's programs. Dems, PAD or ANY disenting voices.

Simple as that. Go read up on it.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of education by TV, print, radio, and the internet.

Besides, just because their message wasn't getting through by peaceful means doesn't give them any right to take over an airport and demonize those who don't agree with them. I thought the PAD were supposed to be the "educated" ones. Why don't they lead by example?

[Sarge]

So I don't think PAD 'really expects' a fascist society to arise from their efforts,

but only a less corrupt one without Thaksin's neo-proto-fascist hand continually stirring troubles.

the methods and actions resemble past fascist paramilitary movements in Europe, that were organised by the intellectuals and establishment figures linked to the armed forces. PAD activism, seem to grow bolder and more radicalised, so I doubt that once they achieve their stated goal (government resignation) they'll just peacefully return home. They tasted power and will hold at ransom the political discourse for times to come. Yes, I do think this is a movement rotten to the core, and your last comment really takes the biscuit. Sondhi is as just corrupt and devious. I find extraordinary, that westerners weaned to sophisticated democracies, would accept at face value the empty rhetoric of an unlawful movement led by a convicted criminal, with a personal grudge against an ex PM. This movement would never be taken seriously in Europe, US, Australia etc.. even if the incumbent administration were corrupt and inept. History will judge Sondhi and his movement as an act of monumental personal vanity. He was best friend with Thaksin, never forget that, never. He once famously said: "Thaksin is the best prime minister our country has ever had." Boy, didn't those words came back to haunt him

here's the face of PAD's uncouth brigade

[snuggzzz]

Re- educate............................... Democracy is not about re-education but one person, one vote, plus freedom of speech without retribution..............!!!!!

[nikster]

The way Thaskin was able to move to the position of adoration he recieved was by managing the media..

More than a few journalist are counted amoung the "disapeared" group.

Those that fought against corruption...same thing...many disappeared.

I take the words of the PAD to mean they will allow a free press/radio/television in Thailand so people can hear opposing views.

The PAD should be campaigning for free press and I would be all for them. But it doesn't look like that to me.

Thaksin didn't just manage the media better than anyone. He also owned most of the media . In addition, he backed the propaganda with actions, and I think that's what counts most in Thai people's minds. They are used to being lied to on TV, but Taksin actually introduced the 30 baht health care scheme and loans to villages. The BKK elite, on the other hand, never gave the people anything.

The PAD and educated Thais know that Thaksin is a huge danger to the country but getting the point across to rural Thais will be hard. Particularly because a lot of Thaksin supporters want to violently dispose of the PAD...

[monteith]

Is there anyone who doesn't think that if the "PPP" are ordered disbanded by the courts, that they won't simply regroup as the "QQQ" party? And if necessary, as the "RRR" party later? So the next time, it won't be Thaksin's brother-in-law as the PM, it might be his cousin, or his second cousin removed, or perhaps a good friend? And if the "word" is put out that this is the "regrouping" of TRT then they won't win the next election?

The PPP has already decided to call themselves the Puea Thai party after they are disbanded & has started organizing at Thaksin's sister's house.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=130822

TIT, you can't make this stuff up. As disgusting as the PAD has become, how can anyone support this ridiculous facade of a "democratically elected" government anymore?

[barryjohnson]

That's for the offer. Rural Thais already have compulsary free education (6 years) provided by the state. Thanks anyway.

[LaoPo]

That's for the offer. Rural Thais already have compulsary free education (6 years) provided by the state. Thanks anyway.

1. Is that just rural Thai or ALL Thai ?

2. 6 years is not enough; at least 4 to 6 years extra is needed to boost the population of the country in education.

3. And what about the quality of the education ? Which country can it be compared with ?

4. Do they teach at least one foreign language ?

I could go on...

LaoPo