P A D -bkk Protesters Aim To ‘re-educate’ Rural Thais

[tig28]

Why do PAD supporters keep bringing up this "vote-buying" excuse?

Particularly as it is almost certainly irrelevant !!

Excuse? Election Fraud is why the courts are involved in the Thaksin/TRT/PPP stuff AGAIN. Why call them elections if vote buying is OK? Please, if vote buying isn't going to be an issue for you then don't bother mentioning elections or democracy again. Then the question becomes Thaksin and Corruption alone (and since he's been convicted of abuse of power .....and has cases pending .... and is on the run to escape serving his sentence ...)

Needless to say JD any and all forms of corruption are one of the MAJOR and very real problems damaging this country. One can but hope that the seemingly universal acceptance of corruption can be corrected ---- for the benefit of Thailand.

But your continuing claims that "vote buying" invalidated the outcome of the election is not supported by the facts. If you care to check the results of the by-elections held under strict EC supervision in all areas where candidates were "carded" by the EC for such practices---you will find that (most/all --?) the "carded" candidates were confirmed and reelected---- therefore the "vote buying" had not "perverted" the outcome as is continually claimed by yourself and your friends. Without any factual back up !!!

NOTE: I say "most/all" as I do not claim to have checked EVERY result ---- but this WAS the case in the first 10 cases I tracked down. This is NOT definitive ---- but it is a convincing indication......

[younghusband]

Well I just wonder: Why nobody is wearing Yellow shirts today. Have you noticed anybody on BTS wearing yellow?

Even yesterday on MONDAY I could barely see anybody in yellow.

Does your eyesight cover the entire length and breadth of this Nation? Or is anyone exceeding the length of your vision a "nobody"?

btw, Sriracha witnessed a noticeable INCREASE in the wearing of yellow yesterday.

Yeah right.This must reflect the increasing national support which we've all noticed for the yellow shirted heroes at the airports.

[tig28]

And I don't understand your objection at all - if we agree that "Isanese" have learned/been taught that vote buying is acceptable they surely must be taught a different view. Call it re-education or de-programming, or just education - it doesn't matter, it can't be allowed to continue.

PLUS... the problem here is that "we" don't agree. Throughout the many posts recently yours have been marked by some of the most RACIST and CONDESCENDING remarks ----- all directed at the people of Isaan... It does you no credit and should be condemned at every opportunity.

You have an amazing capacity to target your bigotry at just one section of the Thai population --- apparently in your sad view corruption is nonexistent amongst your Bangkok peers ------- WHAT A JOKE !!! The views you express are contemptible as well as inaccurate!

[chrislarsson]

Much of the discussion in this tread is about whether rural people are educated enough to vote. Western people, generally, respond to this with great anger. Thai people are more cautious.

The common wisdom in the West is that if dictatorships just introduce democracy, they will become liberal democracies just like Western countries. That means having governments respecting human rights, freedom of religion and speech, equality under the law, impartial courts, separation of church and state, separation of powers with checks and balances, and so on. This attributes can be defined constitutional liberalism.

Constitutional liberalism is the GOAL. Democracy is NOT the goal; democracy is the MEANS to reach that GOAL.

The problem is that this is not what is happening. Democracy does not seem to lead to Constitutional Liberalism. A rising number of countries around the world are becoming ILLIBERAL democracies.

If this does not make sense to you, look at how democracy was developed in the West; In 1830 Great Britain allowed less than 2 percent of its population to vote, after 1867 this number rose to 7%, and reached around 40 percent in the 1880s. Only in the late 1940s did most Western countries become full democracies, with universal adult suffrage. But one hundred years earlier, most of them had adopted important aspects of constitutional liberalism.

In conclusion, constitutional liberalism seems to lead to democracy, but democracy does not seem to lead constitutional liberalism. Yet, the West keeps trying to impose democracy on countries around the world, which keep resulting in illiberal democracies. And illiberal democracies do not tend to mature into liberal democracies, rather the opposite.

The reason so many Thais are cautious about becoming a full democracy, is because they believe that Thailand was becoming an illiberal democracy under Thaksin.

You can read more about the subject in this article:

The Rise of Illiberal Democracy by Fareed Zakaria

Edited December 2, 2008 by chrislarsson

[rafval]

got to admit, maybe I mix with the wrong crowd, but most of the people I have meet from country areas, and they are very nice people, havent got any clue or interest in politics, I dont see how a democracy can successfully operate as a democracy when people have no idea or interest in what they are voting for

[Chaimai]

got to admit, maybe I mix with the wrong crowd, but most of the people I have meet from country areas, and they are very nice people, havent got any clue or interest in politics, I dont see how a democracy can successfully operate as a democracy when people have no idea or interest in what they are voting for

Are you serious - you think that some carrot-cruncher in the backwatwers of Norfolk/Cornwall/Hebrides or slum area of manchester/Liverpool/Birmingham/London (apologies to all those offended by exclusion) has any better knowledge of the intricacies of politics.!!

I agree that many rural Thais barely have the wit to ride a motorcycle (any many don't) it should not deny them a constitutional to vote. It is their country and ALL the electorate has to share some responsibility for the government they choose to elect.

[Chaimai]

The reason so many Thais are cautious about becoming a full democracy, is because they believe that Thailand was becoming an illiberal democracy under Thaksin.

If they can understand and rationalise this, then they deserve to have a vote

[Plus]

I've been caught between a rock and a hard place.

On one side Tig disagrees that vote buying is accepted as a norm in "Isan", on the other hand seemingly educated Younghusband argues that vote buying is not a sin in Thailand's democracy.

Make up your minds, people.

Tig, I think you are in serious denial if you state that vote buying is not widespread in "isan". And you are in need of serious re-education yourself if you think that it's accepted in Bangkok. I've lived here through countless elections and I haven't heard any of the kind.

YH, you pick up only what you like from Chiang Noi's article. Basically he says that the exact practice of handing over notes is just a part of a bigger, more elaborate package. When I talk about vote buying I mean all other forms of illegal influence on voters decisions, from giving away fish sauce to providing free food and entertainment. That's the view taken by the EC and Courts as well.

It is true that it is all bundled together with legit political pitches and promises, but it doesn't make it any more legitimate. It's like vodka in fruit punch - it's still an alcoholic drink, regardless of the amount of healthy vitamins, and the police will get you for drunk driving nonetheless, the argument that "I drank it because of the taste of the juice" will not fly.

[chrislarsson]

The reason so many Thais are cautious about becoming a full democracy, is because they believe that Thailand was becoming an illiberal democracy under Thaksin.

If they can understand and rationalise this, then they deserve to have a vote

I am not talking about whether someone deserve to vote or not. What I am trying to say is that if a country introduces democracy without having strong institutions in place that secures liberty, these institutions tend to be loose their footing under democracy (this is a very simplified statement)

One country that became a full democracy too quickly was Germany. This resulted in a democratically elected leader named Adolph Hitler. Did Germans deserve to vote in the 1930's or not?

Edited December 2, 2008 by chrislarsson

[tig28]

got to admit, maybe I mix with the wrong crowd, but most of the people I have meet from country areas, and they are very nice people, havent got any clue or interest in politics, I dont see how a democracy can successfully operate as a democracy when people have no idea or interest in what they are voting for

Hi rafval ----- Methinks perhaps your first statement may be true. Where I live (village NE) people do not much discuss politics --even now --- but a large number who--by their appearance/occupation/age etc-- may be expected to not be politically aware are surprisingly quite well informed and certainly opinionated !(just be silly enough to ask!!) The ramblings earlier in this post about "government controlled media brainwashing" are so unrealistic as to be laughable..... but it does take all types.....

Locally my rough guess is that 90% are "RED" & 10% are "YELLOW" no angst--no obvious conflict ---- basically your view is your view.

But If you would like to actually see how "the other half live" --- contact me --- happy to show you around this little section of one the most pleasant places in Thailand. One hours flight time from Bangkok..........*sigh*.....

all the best

[Chaimai]

One country that became a full democracy too quickly was Germany. This resulted in a democratically elected leader named Adolph Hitler. Did Germans deserve to vote in the 1930's or not?

Yes, the Germans 'deserved' to vote if theirconstitution so decreed.

It is the other checks and balances in the system that have to be right, to prevent such dictatorships.

Edited December 2, 2008 by endure
References to Monarchy removed

[tig28]

I've been caught between a rock and a hard place.

On one side Tig disagrees that vote buying is accepted as a norm in "Isan", on the other hand seemingly educated Younghusband argues that vote buying is not a sin in Thailand's democracy. PLUS... you haven't been paying attention again !! I have never suggested in any way that "vote buying" is not widespread THROUGHOUT Thailand. If anything I have said causes you to think that--- then I have worded it badly--- indicate same very happy to withdraw same ---or you have misinterpreted what I have said.

To confirm--- "vote buying" in many forms was extremely widespread in the last election.

Make up your minds, people.

Tig, I think you are in serious denial if you state that vote buying is not widespread in "isan".see above. And you are in need of serious re-education yourself if you think that it's accepted in Bangkok. I've lived here through countless elections and I haven't heard any of the kind. PLUS some only see and hear what they wish! None are as blind as.......

YH, you pick up only what you like from Chiang Noi's article. Basically he says that the exact practice of handing over notes is just a part of a bigger, more elaborate package. When I talk about vote buying I mean all other forms of illegal influence on voters decisions, from giving away fish sauce to providing free food and entertainment. Overseas trips---undeserved promotions --- loans---etc. That's the view taken by the EC and Courts as well. Wholeheartedly agree.

It is true that it is all bundled together with legit political pitches and promises, but it doesn't make it any more legitimate. It's like vodka in fruit punch - it's still an alcoholic drink, regardless of the amount of healthy vitamins, and the police will get you for drunk driving nonetheless, the argument that "I drank it because of the taste of the juice" will not fly.

[Samuian]

I think its unwise to read too much into a quote from someone whose first language is not English. I'm quite sure they don't mean to imply they need to start a campaign of brainwashing etc.

The fact is education is sorely lacking in Thailand, and its especially poor in the provinces, ask anyone who does business here. Thats not to say that there not educated people in the rural population but Im quite certain that you will find a higher standard of education in Bangkok it stands to reason.

A better educated population should be in a position to make better choices.

.........edited....

Wise words... didn't agreed with the edited part.. though!

It's what it is all about, change it and Thailand will be changed!

But there is a time factor and "Uncle Takky" will certainly do something about it, even if he has to move there iand live in a tent for the time being...but maybe he has again the stars against him and not very good karma, who can tell?

[tig28]

The reason so many Thais are cautious about becoming a full democracy, is because they believe that Thailand was becoming an illiberal democracy under Thaksin.

If they can understand and rationalise this, then they deserve to have a vote

I am not talking about whether someone deserve to vote or not. What I am trying to say is that if a country introduces democracy without having strong institutions in place that secures liberty, these institutions tend to be loose their footing under democracy (this is a very simplified statement)

One country that became a full democracy too quickly was Germany. This resulted in a democratically elected leader named Adolph Hitler. Did Germans deserve to vote in the 1930's or not?

Awwww---- here we go again ----- WRONG !!!! .... HITLER was never elected to ANY position in Germany-----

In the presidential election held on March 13, 1932, there were four candidates: the incumbent, Field Marshall Paul von Hindenburg, Hitler, and two minor candidates, Ernst Thaelmann and Theodore Duesterberg. The results were:

Hindenburg 49.6 percent

Hitler 30.1 percent

Thaelmann 13.2 percent

Duesterberg 6.8 percent

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, almost 70 percent of the German people voted against Hitler, causing his supporter Joseph Goebbels, who would later become Hitler's minister of propaganda, to lament in his journal, "We're beaten; terrible outlook. Party circles badly depressed and dejected."

Since Hindenberg had not received a majority of the vote, however, a runoff election had to be held among the top three vote-getters. On April 19, 1932, the runoff results were:

Hindenburg 53.0 percent

Hitler 36.8 percent

Thaelmann 10.2 percent

Thus, even though Hitler's vote total had risen, he still had been decisively rejected by the German people.

Hitler and his fellow members of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party, who were determined to bring down the republic and establish dictatorial rule in Germany, did everything they could to create chaos in the streets, including initiating political violence and murder. The situation got so bad that martial law was proclaimed in Berlin.

Political deadlocks in the Reichstag soon brought a new election, this one in November 6, 1932. In that election, the Nazis lost two million votes and 34 seats.

Attempting to remedy the chaos and the deadlocks, Hindenburg fired Papen and appointed an army general named Kurt von Schleicher as the new German chancellor. Unable to secure a majority coalition in the Reichstag, however, Schleicher finally tendered his resignation to Hindenburg, 57 days after he had been appointed.

On January 30, 1933, President Hindenburg appointed Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany. Although the National Socialists never captured more than 37 percent of the national vote, and even though they still held a minority of cabinet posts and fewer than 50 percent of the seats in the Reichstag, Hitler and the Nazis set out to to consolidate their power. With Hitler as chancellor, that proved to be a fairly easy task.

FROM: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, by William Shirer

Also at the risk of belaboring the obvious ---- does any of the last 4 paragraphs seem familiar ????

[Samuian]

.......edited..Basically he says that the exact practice of handing over notes is just a part of a bigger, more elaborate package. When I talk about vote buying I mean all other forms of illegal influence on voters decisions, from giving away fish sauce to providing free food and entertainment. That's the view taken by the EC and Courts as well.

It is true that it is all bundled together with legit political pitches and promises, but it doesn't make it any more legitimate. It's like vodka in fruit punch - it's still an alcoholic drink, regardless of the amount of healthy vitamins, and the police will get you for drunk driving nonetheless, the argument that "I drank it because of the taste of the juice" will not fly.

Cash is more likely to be the smallest part of the package, why has this government been in a rush to release the last budget, which was gigantic!?

The package contains of course contracts, infra stucture projects.... name it, that is hat it is all about!

If I, with this in mind then look around, the sorry state of infrastructure... many things became crystal clear.. corruption as a grand scheme, goes a long, long way and is an ugly dragon which eats everyone who dreams it will benefit him via his vote... except a few, who are at the receiving end.

[rafval]

As has been mentioned perhaps, democracy is no use without a working justice system, among other things. If politicians are above the law anything can happen, as we are seeing now.

Edited December 2, 2008 by rafval

[Samuian]

got to admit, maybe I mix with the wrong crowd, but most of the people I have meet from country areas, and they are very nice people, havent got any clue or interest in politics, I dont see how a democracy can successfully operate as a democracy when people have no idea or interest in what they are voting for

That is what the PAD is basically pointing out - that is what is meant with "re-education"... help them to understand and then make right or good decisions!

That why appointing and restricting elected politicians from governing - it's a possible cure!

Like a guided tour...

[rafval]

got to admit, maybe I mix with the wrong crowd, but most of the people I have meet from country areas, and they are very nice people, havent got any clue or interest in politics, I dont see how a democracy can successfully operate as a democracy when people have no idea or interest in what they are voting for

That is what the PAD is basically pointing out - that is what is meant with "re-education"... help them to understand and then make right or good decisions!

That why appointing and restricting elected politicians from governing - it's a possible cure!

Like a guided tour...

yes, as well as a working justice system a free media is also essential before democracy can work

[jasreeve17]

got to admit, maybe I mix with the wrong crowd, but most of the people I have meet from country areas, and they are very nice people, havent got any clue or interest in politics, I dont see how a democracy can successfully operate as a democracy when people have no idea or interest in what they are voting for

That is what the PAD is basically pointing out - that is what is meant with "re-education"... help them to understand and then make right or good decisions!

That why appointing and restricting elected politicians from governing - it's a possible cure!

Like a guided tour...

Do you actually believe this diatribe, or have you got so focussed and stuck in your one-sided argument that such comments self eminate?

I'd suggest that your / the Plebs Against Democracy's presumption that people that don't vote 'your way' are stupid and in need of re-education is somewhat flawed.

[blaze]

got to admit, maybe I mix with the wrong crowd, but most of the people I have meet from country areas, and they are very nice people, havent got any clue or interest in politics, I dont see how a democracy can successfully operate as a democracy when people have no idea or interest in what they are voting for

That is what the PAD is basically pointing out - that is what is meant with "re-education"... help them to understand and then make right or good decisions!

That why appointing and restricting elected politicians from governing - it's a possible cure!

Like a guided tour...

Do you actually believe this diatribe, or have you got so focussed and stuck in your one-sided argument that such comments self eminate?

I'd suggest that your / the Plebs Against Democracy's presumption that people that don't vote 'your way' are stupid and in need of re-education is somewhat flawed.

Actually education of the poor might not be a bad idea- no- it's a GREAT idea- providing that Giles U is assigned director of curriculum. Or maybe bring in some foreign teachers- Chavez and Morales would be a good start. HA! the elites would be BEGGING THaksin to return-

[chrislarsson]

The reason so many Thais are cautious about becoming a full democracy, is because they believe that Thailand was becoming an illiberal democracy under Thaksin.

If they can understand and rationalise this, then they deserve to have a vote

I am not talking about whether someone deserve to vote or not. What I am trying to say is that if a country introduces democracy without having strong institutions in place that secures liberty, these institutions tend to be loose their footing under democracy (this is a very simplified statement)

One country that became a full democracy too quickly was Germany. This resulted in a democratically elected leader named Adolph Hitler. Did Germans deserve to vote in the 1930's or not?

Awwww---- here we go again ----- WRONG !!!! .... HITLER was never elected to ANY position in Germany-----

Also at the risk of belaboring the obvious ---- does any of the last 4 paragraphs seem familiar ????

My mistake...Hitler did not get elected directly ...but I would still argue that Hitler was a product of democracy.

Link: How democracy produced a monster - International Herald Tribune

[Plus]

if we agree that "Isanese" have learned/been taught that vote buying is acceptable ..

PLUS... the problem here is that "we" don't agree...

That's the part that confused me, Tig.

[permanent_disorder]

all i know is that the PAD "education" programs are nothing more than brainwash and propaganda and is excatly that what we normally would describe as fascist or nazi ideology. that is at least that what a lot of acadamics say about the PAD.

and that the PAD the "more educated" ones are is a often repeated urban legend, but easy to expose as lie.

the leaders are dumb themself and only fouls can fall for PAD propaganda.

it's also proven FACT that ASTV falsify News or just report false news and propaganda lies. other events, the ones that really happen, you can see worldwide, reported from many agency, news like the shooting in front of the bangkok taxi radio, don't get covered by ASTV or TOC channel.

and yeah there are the "news" that happen to be can seen exlusive and only on ASTV. ever ask you why nobody else reported about it? it's a magic and illusion show by untalented con artists, so poorly staged that it gets at least some entertaining value because it's trash and campy.

if you visit them as independent journalist it's almost like in north korea now, you get two Guards as watchdogs that guide you trough the camp and tell you where is the good position to take a picture now. at this corner sit and wait a few people with plakard that they hold up when the next photographer comes.

they will bring you also to a corner where amputees and people in wheels chairs group-up and express on a dozen banner and posters their democratic voice. and if you visit another protest site the same day it can happen that two other guards bring you to the amputee corner where exactly the same people sitting you see earlier that day. i observed that, there is a pickup express or shuttle service for the amputees. and a "job" for 3-4 PAD guards is to pick up and taxi the amputees. no BS.

a talk with the PAD protestors is same like have a talk with Jehovah's Witnesses or bible students. except that those have their own book and quite a lot of topics they can communicate about. (maybe not fair to compare them with dumb PAD cult)

in a talk withs PAD cult fellowers it's only the finger pointing on others and that what they believe.

Watchtower to read or listen to PAD agitation might be sound great, but only if you are a passionate believer yourself.

PAD is nothing more than an other cult. words like "education" in connection whit PAD is the same misnomer like "democracy" in PAD nor are they the "people"

[tig28]

My mistake...Hitler did not get elected directly ...but I would still argue that Hitler was a product of democracy.

Link: How democracy produced a monster - International Herald Tribune

Holy whatchnot--- BATMAN--- did you actually read the link you posted to support this view ??? "but I would still argue that Hitler was a product of democracy"---- ( I"m starting to suspect that you are PLUS under an alias)

And whilst we are at it --Hitler didn't get elected directly--- indirectly or in any manner whatsoever ---- he was appointed!!

Anyway lets have a look at a part of YOUR link:

By 1930 it was effectively impossible to rule Germany without Nazi backing. But while Nazi electoral gains could block democracy, they were insufficient to bring Hitler to power.

From 1930 onward, therefore, the German state was locked in stalemate. Democratic forms remained. But democracy itself was in effect dead, or at least dying. The anti-democratic elites tried to broker solutions, but failed on account of Hitler's intransigence.

Ultimately, because he could find no other authoritarian solution, President Paul von Hindenburg appointed Hitler as head of government, or chancellor, on Jan. 30, 1933. What followed led to disaster for Germany, for Europe and for the world

Link: How democracy produced a monster

"But democracy itself was in effect dead" ... YOU SEE DEMOCRACY WAS DEAD THROUGH THE ACTIONS OF AN UNELECTED MINORITY AND CHAOS RULES AND IN THIS CASE YOU GET ----HITLER !!,

[spongeman]

Educate Rural Thais ? The bottom line is if the Democrats want to get back in they need to show the rural people the M O N E Y . The Democrats want to do it on da cheap!

They have no chance of winning votes up country. Maybe the PAD will come on and say they want a North and South Thailand ! Thats the only chance they have.

[KireB]

Do you actually believe this diatribe, or have you got so focussed and stuck in your one-sided argument that such comments self eminate?

I'd suggest that your / the Plebs Against Democracy's presumption that people that don't vote 'your way' are stupid and in need of re-education is somewhat flawed.

By ' dont vote your way', you must mean ' taking money for votes', as that's the issue here?

Some people are selling their votes, and yes those people should or be excluded or re-educated.

Seems fair to me.

[Steve2UK]

I've been caught between a rock and a hard place.

On one side Tig disagrees that vote buying is accepted as a norm in "Isan", on the other hand seemingly educated Younghusband argues that vote buying is not a sin in Thailand's democracy.

Make up your minds, people.

Even allowing for the now very familiar selection/twisting of what people say to suit your own ends, you give yourself away with the "Make up your minds, people" line. Hey, guess what - they're individuals with shades and differences of thought. That really shouldn't be such an alien concept for you to grasp.

To give you your due, you do at least put on some show of answering opposing points. I wish there were more like you and Animatic to state your case. All in all, the discussion in these threads has largely descended to a depressing cross between a kindergarten scrap and a drunken shouting match.

[rainman]

Schools and universities will now probably get mandatory "PAD Studies".

[LaoPo]

Exactly Lao Po, the current government does not supply sufficient education for children, maybe another reason why you might look at some of the PAD politics to educate (not indoctrinate) all of Thailand's poulation. Then the whole population would have a choice in who to vote for

You just shot yourself in the foot

You are right. The current government (which is gone now) doesn't/didn't supply enough education for children.

But to blame the present or last 2 or 3 governments is only partly correct as ALL of the past governments are to be blamed.

That's exactly the problem of Thailand. The ruling elites PREVENTED proper education for the rural poor because educated people have a voice, the un-educated rural poor (80% of the population), do not, until recently.

Don't forget that television is only here in Thailand since 40 years and Internet a mere 10-15.

Before that the elite ruled and decided what kind of education was ''enough'' for the poor. Before television became normal, the poor didn't even know what was going on in Bangkok.

But, the PAD and it's leaders is/are not the proper instrument/movement to (re)-educate the rural poor of Thailand.

If Mr. PAD/Sondhi cs was so touched and moved by the uneducated rural poor he should have stepped up a long time ago and search for opportunities to become minister of education instead of building his media empire and fight his former friend...

LaoPo

[rafval]

If Mr. PAD/Sondhi cs was so touched and moved by the uneducated rural poor he should have stepped up a long time ago and search for opportunities to become minister of education instead of building his media empire and fight his former friend...

whatever his motives hes managed to publicize an important issue so lets hope the issue isnt forgotten too soon