Bank Fraud

[johnjohnson]

I live here in thailand and use my american visa check card to get money from the atm. I have a $400 limit per day.

I just looked online and my account was emptied. $1,700 in one day. Transaction line on my online banking only reads "ATM BANGKOK BANK/BR.523 0000000000 ". It didn't say the city or anything else. A normal entry on my onlie bank reads "ATM WITHDRAWAL - BANGKOK BANK/BRBANGKOK BA 0000000000TH 5548". It also showed they deposited the same amounts each time even though it really subtracted from my accoutnt. It is imposibble to deposit money to my american bank from a bangkok bank atm. My atm card has been with me the whole time and I always cover my hand when I type my pin. I have a safe at home so all my stuff is locked up when I have a overnight guess.

Can someone make sense of this for me?

I called my bank and made a fraud claim. If they determine its fraud I will get all my money back. I'm sure there won't be a problem since this must be some kind of computer hacking. With the funny branch ID and the deposits made that could never be made, it should be obvious to the fraud department.

Edited December 3, 2008 by johnjohnson

[syd barrett]

It seems to me that the Bangkok Bank has the worst record for internal fraud. Most other international banks know this and after some time you will get your money refunded.

There are no 100% safe banks in Thailand; the best way to go is a savings account with NO atm card.

I make a point of never using my home bank ATM card in Thailand. If you need cash wire-it to a Thai Savings account.

Good luck and report back on progress.

[MeetJohnDoe]

I am a little confused as to what actually happened. It sounds like you used an American bank's debit card that is linked to a savings or checking account. It appears that someone (outside the bank?) obtained your debit card number and PIN and used them to drain the account. Is this not an inherent danger of having/using debit cards. They are offered as basically electronic checks and people like their convenience. However, unlike a credit card where money is lent to the user for repayment in the future, when one uses a debit card, like a check, the money is immediately deducted from the linked account. Therefore, if there is any fraud, the money is already gone from the account holder (as opposed to the bank's money with a credit card) and it is more difficult to get one's money back.

Basically, if someone gets hold of one's debit card details, it's the same as them getting hold of your ID and checkbook and writing themselves a bunch of checks for goods or cash. By the time you discover the fraud, the money's gone. For this reason, I do not use debit cards...ATM cards at machines and credit cards at reputable retailers for large purchases and online but never debit cards. When my bank sends them to me, I cut them up and continue to use only the standard ATM card linked to my accounts.

As an aside, in 10 years of banking with Bangkok Bank, I have never had a fraud problem with them...maybe just lucky.

[Fore Man]

I am a little confused as to what actually happened. It sounds like you used an American bank's debit card that is linked to a savings or checking account. It appears that someone (outside the bank?) obtained your debit card number and PIN and used them to drain the account. Is this not an inherent danger of having/using debit cards. They are offered as basically electronic checks and people like their convenience. However, unlike a credit card where money is lent to the user for repayment in the future, when one uses a debit card, like a check, the money is immediately deducted from the linked account. Therefore, if there is any fraud, the money is already gone from the account holder (as opposed to the bank's money with a credit card) and it is more difficult to get one's money back.

Basically, if someone gets hold of one's debit card details, it's the same as them getting hold of your ID and checkbook and writing themselves a bunch of checks for goods or cash. By the time you discover the fraud, the money's gone. For this reason, I do not use debit cards...ATM cards at machines and credit cards at reputable retailers for large purchases and online but never debit cards. When my bank sends them to me, I cut them up and continue to use only the standard ATM card linked to my accounts.

As an aside, in 10 years of banking with Bangkok Bank, I have never had a fraud problem with them...maybe just lucky.

Ditto here...after 5 years with BKKBK; using USA bank ATM card.

[richm7]

I live here in thailand and use my american visa check card to get money from the atm. I have a $400 limit per day.

I just looked online and my account was emptied. $1,700 in one day. Transaction line on my online banking only reads "ATM BANGKOK BANK/BR.523 0000000000 ". It didn't say the city or anything else. A normal entry on my onlie bank reads "ATM WITHDRAWAL - BANGKOK BANK/BRBANGKOK BA 0000000000TH 5548". It also showed they deposited the same amounts each time even though it really subtracted from my accoutnt. It is imposibble to deposit money to my american bank from a bangkok bank atm. My atm card has been with me the whole time and I always cover my hand when I type my pin. I have a safe at home so all my stuff is locked up when I have a overnight guess.

Can someone make sense of this for me?

I called my bank and made a fraud claim. If they determine its fraud I will get all my money back. I'm sure there won't be a problem since this must be some kind of computer hacking. With the funny branch ID and the deposits made that could never be made, it should be obvious to the fraud department.

Something not right here. The bank in the US applies the withdrawal limit, so how come it allowed multiple withdrawals in the same day? It won't even let you do that in the US. Also, if it shows a corresponding deposit each time, how come it "drained your account"? You are leaving out some important information. If it was a computer glitch that just repeated the original withdrawal amount a few times it is quite likely that it also automatically reversed those transactions by posting a "deposit". Surely the Bank was able to enlighten you when you called them?

BTW, don't use standalone ATM's. Only use those attached to a Bank branch. Hard to spot scanners are being attached to the front of the card slot which captures your information, including PIN, so it is easy to make a clone, especially with primitive USA origin cards. It continues to amaze me that US issuers still refuse to put smart chips on their cards.

The good news is you'll get your money back, it being a US bank. It could have been a Thai bank and you'd be up sh*t creek.

[johnjohnson]

Something not right here. The bank in the US applies the withdrawal limit, so how come it allowed multiple withdrawals in the same day? It won't even let you do that in the US. Also, if it shows a corresponding deposit each time, how come it "drained your account"? You are leaving out some important information. If it was a computer glitch that just repeated the original withdrawal amount a few times it is quite likely that it also automatically reversed those transactions by posting a "deposit". Surely the Bank was able to enlighten you when you called them?

BTW, don't use standalone ATM's. Only use those attached to a Bank branch. Hard to spot scanners are being attached to the front of the card slot which captures your information, including PIN, so it is easy to make a clone, especially with primitive USA origin cards. It continues to amaze me that US issuers still refuse to put smart chips on their cards.

The good news is you'll get your money back, it being a US bank. It could have been a Thai bank and you'd be up sh*t creek.

I wish I did leave something out but I didn't. That's whats so confusing. For every withdraw there is an equal amout deposited but it was the bank that added up the fraud to $1700 which was about what I had at the time.

It makes no sense. As far as the bank helping, the lady just took the info and submitted the report. When I asked her about the deposit/withdraw issue she just sounded annoyed and said "who knows why criminal do ahat they do". I said "they do what they do to make as much money as possible and depositing makes no sense". She had no answer. I said surely you have some experience in this area, can't you explain it? She said "no". She gave me the number to the fraud dpartment and gave me my report number and there phone number. I will call tonight.

I always use the same ATM mounted in the bank but I was just in Laos and used some atm that was embaeded in a window in a mini mart. I could see wires hanging out the back and it never gave me any money even though it sounded like it was giving money. I bet that's were they got me. I didn't see the poor install till after itt didn't give me money. I was in a hurry and since i have been here for four years and laos many times I didn't think much of this. I have been using this card for four years without a problem.

Since my bank has limits per day it only makes sense that this was some kind of computer hacking fraud.

If it still doesn't make sense thent join the club. I can't figure it out but I believe it should be obvious to the fraud department and thats all that counts now.

Thanks for the replies

Chok-Dee all

[johnjohnson]

Something not right here. The bank in the US applies the withdrawal limit, so how come it allowed multiple withdrawals in the same day? It won't even let you do that in the US. Also, if it shows a corresponding deposit each time, how come it "drained your account"? You are leaving out some important information. If it was a computer glitch that just repeated the original withdrawal amount a few times it is quite likely that it also automatically reversed those transactions by posting a "deposit". Surely the Bank was able to enlighten you when you called them?

BTW, don't use standalone ATM's. Only use those attached to a Bank branch. Hard to spot scanners are being attached to the front of the card slot which captures your information, including PIN, so it is easy to make a clone, especially with primitive USA origin cards. It continues to amaze me that US issuers still refuse to put smart chips on their cards.

The good news is you'll get your money back, it being a US bank. It could have been a Thai bank and you'd be up sh*t creek.

I wish I did leave something out but I didn't. That's whats so confusing. For every withdraw there is an equal amout deposited but it was the bank that added up the fraud to $1700 which was about what I had at the time.

It makes no sense. As far as the bank helping, the lady just took the info and submitted the report. When I asked her about the deposit/withdraw issue she just sounded annoyed and said "who knows why criminal do ahat they do". I said "they do what they do to make as much money as possible and depositing makes no sense". She had no answer. I said surely you have some experience in this area, can't you explain it? She said "no". She gave me the number to the fraud dpartment and gave me my report number and there phone number. I will call tonight.

I always use the same ATM mounted in the bank but I was just in Laos and used some atm that was embaeded in a window in a mini mart. I could see wires hanging out the back and it never gave me any money even though it sounded like it was giving money. I bet that's were they got me. I didn't see the poor install till after itt didn't give me money. I was in a hurry and since i have been here for four years and laos many times I didn't think much of this. I have been using this card for four years without a problem.

Since my bank has limits per day it only makes sense that this was some kind of computer hacking fraud.

If it still doesn't make sense thent join the club. I can't figure it out but I believe it should be obvious to the fraud department and thats all that counts now.

Thanks for the replies

Chok-Dee all

[dotcom]

It is fraud & they will catch the thief & you will get your money back - eventually.

It amazes me that these idiots think they can get away with this stuff.

Some Somchai just lost his good paying job at a bank.

Edited December 4, 2008 by dotcom

[MeetJohnDoe]

You description of events sounds somewhat implausible and I am beginning to suspect a possible troll

However, if it did occur, it may be that you were a victim of one of those ATM machine card scanner frauds...especially if you used your card to get some money out of a [private?] ATM machine in Laos. One must be careful only to use actual BANK ATMs and not many of the "private" money dispensing machines put-up by various private businesses. Even with the bank ones, it has gotten to where you must examine the card intake slot carefully to see it is part of the machine and not one of the fakes.

In any case, if this is what happened, it is not the bank's fault...it wasn't even their ATM. That is why debit cards are so dangerous...if the information gets in the wrong hands the money can be quickly drained from one's account. Review the literature that you received when you received the Visa debit card to see if you have any recourse.

[johnjohnson]

It all makes sense now. It wasn't fraud, it was a atm/computer problem. When I was attemping to get money that night the atm kept saying i was over my limit even though I wasn't. The problem was that the computers told my bank I was getting the money even though nothing came out.

I made four attempts that night since I know i wasn't over my limit, and each one deducted from my acount then showed a reversal, thus the deposit / withdrawl of the same amounts.

The problem is that the credit was pending so it still deduted from my account, and it even went so far as to go into overdraft off my visa account.

I just looked at my online and all the transactions are gone and my money is there and my visa overdraft was never overdrafted.

I'm glad this happened though. I'm going to be extra carefull in the future.

tx

[dotcom]

I do wires now & use my BKK Bank ATM card. reason? It can take 1 to 3 days for your balance in USA to get updated.

Glad you solved it.

Instead of hitting an ATM at night - take your passport to a bank branch & do "foreign exchange" 20k or so.

[Groongthep]

I'm glad everything turned out OK and your bank account wasn't cleaned out. For future reference though a good way to prevent a large scale loss to any bank account is to do something similar to this: In the US I have 2 checking accounts, my primary account at Bank of America from which I pay the bulk of my day to day expenses and another checking account at Navy Federal Credit Union in which I only keep a small balance. As has been discussed many times before on TV, Bank of America is notorious for very high out of network fees, but in spite of this they are good because they have a great online banking service, a large number of in-network ATMs and name recognition world wide. NFCU has a much inferior online banking service and a very small network. Their overseas ATM fees however are lower than Bank of America overseas ATM fees.

So what I have done is set up my NFCU account as a payee in the online "bill payer" section of my BofA account so I can transfer money into the NFCU account without any fee by using my laptop computer. Bill payer is one of the few BofA transactions that is free. When in Thailand (or anywhere else outside the US) I can transfer just enough money into the NFCU account that I need to withdraw. Once the transfer is made from the BofA into the NFCU account I use my NFCU ATM (CUCARD) to withdraw the money from the Thai ATM at a lower fee than if I had used the BofA card. Even if I am a victim of fraud, the most anyone can get is what I transferred into the NFCU account and my primary (larger) account at BofA remains safe. Once you set up the original bill payer account it is a very quick and simple process to complete.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Groongthep

[johnjohnson]

I'm glad everything turned out OK and your bank account wasn't cleaned out. For future reference though a good way to prevent a large scale loss to any bank account is to do something similar to this: In the US I have 2 checking accounts, my primary account at Bank of America from which I pay the bulk of my day to day expenses and another checking account at Navy Federal Credit Union in which I only keep a small balance. As has been discussed many times before on TV, Bank of America is notorious for very high out of network fees, but in spite of this they are good because they have a great online banking service, a large number of in-network ATMs and name recognition world wide. NFCU has a much inferior online banking service and a very small network. Their overseas ATM fees however are lower than Bank of America overseas ATM fees.

So what I have done is set up my NFCU account as a payee in the online "bill payer" section of my BofA account so I can transfer money into the NFCU account without any fee by using my laptop computer. Bill payer is one of the few BofA transactions that is free. When in Thailand (or anywhere else outside the US) I can transfer just enough money into the NFCU account that I need to withdraw. Once the transfer is made from the BofA into the NFCU account I use my NFCU ATM (CUCARD) to withdraw the money from the Thai ATM at a lower fee than if I had used the BofA card. Even if I am a victim of fraud, the most anyone can get is what I transferred into the NFCU account and my primary (larger) account at BofA remains safe. Once you set up the original bill payer account it is a very quick and simple process to complete.

That's a good idea since i have my brokerage account with the same bank. It's not accessable throught the atm, but I still worry.

I'm familiar with all the bill pay services so it should be easy for me.

Thx

[MJP]

I live here in thailand and use my american visa check card to get money from the atm. I have a $400 limit per day.

I just looked online and my account was emptied. $1,700 in one day. Transaction line on my online banking only reads "ATM BANGKOK BANK/BR.523 0000000000 ". It didn't say the city or anything else. A normal entry on my onlie bank reads "ATM WITHDRAWAL - BANGKOK BANK/BRBANGKOK BA 0000000000TH 5548". It also showed they deposited the same amounts each time even though it really subtracted from my accoutnt. It is imposibble to deposit money to my american bank from a bangkok bank atm. My atm card has been with me the whole time and I always cover my hand when I type my pin. I have a safe at home so all my stuff is locked up when I have a overnight guess.

Can someone make sense of this for me?

I called my bank and made a fraud claim. If they determine its fraud I will get all my money back. I'm sure there won't be a problem since this must be some kind of computer hacking. With the funny branch ID and the deposits made that could never be made, it should be obvious to the fraud department.

Bad news dude. I had this happen but my bank detected the fraud and stopped it. These clowns (in Thailand) tried to purchase £700 worth of electrical goods whilst I was in the UK.

Anyway, talk to your bank and see if they do a device called a 'PIN Sentry'. It looks like a small pocket calculator and use it for additional security. Change PIN, online banking access codes etc. My bank gave me one free.

You'll get your money back.

[cali4995]

that happened to me once, the atm shuddered and coughed but never gave me the money?

later-on, worrying about it i went and checked my acct online and it showed a 10k debit? the

amount i had requested but was never given. i also had a spaz-fit and suspected fraud but

the funds were credited back to the acct the next day. dodgy. since then i've been very

paranoid about which atm's i use. usually only outside a currency exhange booth during

working hours because so many of the machines are left unattended and unpredictable.

[MyphuketLife]

that happened to me once, the atm shuddered and coughed but never gave me the money?

later-on, worrying about it i went and checked my acct online and it showed a 10k debit? the

amount i had requested but was never given. i also had a spaz-fit and suspected fraud but

the funds were credited back to the acct the next day. dodgy. since then i've been very

paranoid about which atm's i use. usually only outside a currency exhange booth during

working hours because so many of the machines are left unattended and unpredictable.

I have had the same happen several times, machine counts the money... then not enough in the machine. Go to the next machine, and it won't let me withdraw, look online shows i took out the money. The next day, all is fixed funds placed back into my account.

Its like the ATM sends a widthraw request, gets the ok, and terminates the connection, but then not enough money in the machine, it never sends back the oh wait ATM failed, last charge not valid....