Equality For Thai Wives

[CosmicSurfer]

It came up in the thread on the New Non-Immigrant regulations....

A number of posters said that a Thai wife should sue the government for the unconstitutional treatment she receives in the disparity between Thai Wife - Farang Husband relationships as compared to Thai Husband and Farang wife relationships.

As this directly effects me, It makes me wonder if a USA style "Class Action" suit is a possibility here? and if so, Why hasn't one been put together.

One thing is SURE.. no constructive change will ever happen here unless a proactive approach is taken, and change is forced down by the courts. Recent events alone have proven this.

I don't have the money to pursue this action on my own, but together on this Board, we must have the means to help each other.

I'm sure that the Legal skills and help are available, and if we all contribute, maybe the costs will be reasonably. Of course, if some Board member wants to contribute his/her legal expertise on a Pro Bono basis that would be real solidarity.

I volunteer my Wife as the lead litigant if Necesssary... (She, of course, doesn't know anything about this.. and will probably kill me when she finds out.)

But seriously... I can understand and excuse many of the recent actions and regulations by Thai Immigration... but isn't it time that Thailand became a civilized country?

Or is EVERYTHING here just about SEX ??? and Money??? and Denial???

CS

Edited December 4, 2008 by CosmicSurfer

[torrenova]

Great in theory but people here are so "glad" to be here at all they don't want to rock the boat. As for lawyers, anyone heard anything about Somchai recently. His wife hasn't either

http://www.upiasia.com/Human_Rights/2008/0...ai_lawyer/2381/

Disappeared on my birthday.

[ubonjoe]

It bothers the heck out of me every time I read the rules for extension and naturalization that it is not equal.

My thoughts have been to try and get the wives to start an organization to push for changes.

I even have a name for it. It could be called "Mia Farangs".

With the thousands of mia farangs there are it would only take a small donation from each member to get something going.

I think a petition drive would have the most effect. And might get faster results.

Edited December 4, 2008 by ubonjoe

[wolfmanjack]

A small donation of 1,000 baht each would build one h3ll of a war chest to push this through the courts. You can count me in.

[Mario2008]

As said in another forum, there is a famous human rights case about a similar case, in Mauritius.

The case is: aumeeruddy-cziffra vs mauritius and can be found here: http://www.chr.up.ac.za/centre_publication.../ahrlr-text.pdf

It leafs no doubt that the new immirgation rules are in violation of a Thai wives human rights, as she is treated differently then Thai men.

[CosmicSurfer]

A small donation of 1,000 baht each would build one h3ll of a war chest to push this through the courts. You can count me in.

WOW... I thought some people might be receptive to this idea.

Thanks for the support.

I see no reason why this should be considered "Rocking the Boat"...

It's only Thai citizens demanding their constitutional rights.

True it may set an example for the country in how a REAL democracy works, and could even lead to the beginning of real change.

Besides, it seems to me that our ability to live in Thailand is increasingly in jeapordy anyway.

Do we really have anything to lose?

Change is only made reluctantly, and will not be just given up voluntarily, especialy to those who chose not to fight for it.

It has to start somewhere, somehow ... sometime.... So why not Here, Now, With US ????

If we are serious about this, then making a few posts is not enough.

We need to organize.

We need to get Legal advise.

We need to raise money.

If you are worried about posting here, send me a PM.

But also consider that the more support we show here in this thread, the more comfort other Members will have signing on to this idea.

Also think not only about yourself and your wife... think of the others you are helping out here in Thailand by your presence... or you kids... or future kids... Isn't it time they saw how much you love their country, and how willing you are to fight to make this a better place to live for all ??? Or are you willing to give it all up down the road, if you no longer can manage to satisfy the ever changing criteria required by the Immigration Department.

Support your Thai Wife,

(Discussion about whether "Palayia" or "Mia" Farang is more appropriate should be left up to a group discussion....

maybe Another Group name could be ... "Love for my Farang Husband".)

Lets keep this idea alive and make it more Reality than idea.

I Love my Thai Wife,

CS

[skippybangkok]

LOL..........

How long have you been in Thailand ?

Save ur money (or give it to me if u want to waste it ) - u aint got a hope in h.ell.

[Lordfoul]

Thank God the "Lay down and take it" brigade is here.

Quick say "This is Thailand" so we can all nod our heads in agreement and smile knowingly.

If you do nothing you will get nothing!

LOL..........

How long have you been in Thailand ?

Save ur money (or give it to me if u want to waste it ) - u aint got a hope in h.ell.

[Mario2008]

LOL..........

How long have you been in Thailand ?

Save ur money (or give it to me if u want to waste it ) - u aint got a hope in h.ell.

The law is clear and I would give Thai judges a bit more credit.

As said, there is already a similair ruling on this from a UN human rights boddy. Thailand is not bound by this ruling, but a judge will have a lot of explaining to when he rules differently.

[ubonjoe]

LOL..........

How long have you been in Thailand ?

Save ur money (or give it to me if u want to waste it ) - u aint got a hope in h.ell.

Are you married to a Thai?

Why do people have to be so negative and skeptical?

I think it's worth a try and for each individual it wouldn't be much money.

A few years ago a change to the naturalization act made it all way to parliament but was never brought to a vote. Mostly because nobody was pushing it hard enough.

Edited December 5, 2008 by ubonjoe

[Canada]

Interesting topic. I would throw in my two cents. But I also think that "skippy" might not be far off the mark.

[Mario2008]

I agree with Joe. It certainly is worth a try.

Often in this kind of cases when people try to a state to court things gets settles before it reaches the courts. And Thailand has its own woman rights group, who might be interested in such a case.

[wolfmanjack]

LOL..........

How long have you been in Thailand ?

Save ur money (or give it to me if u want to waste it ) - u aint got a hope in h.ell.

i don't know. From what i have seen in the courts they are pretty fair except for the Labor courts.

[Pdaz]

How about if all the disgruntled Thai wives all go and camp out at Swampybum for a week ?

The last time a group of disinfranchised Thai's demonstrated there their complaints got a lot of attention....

[torrenova]

Logistics is the nightmare even if you were lucky enough to get a Thai lawyer who would risk it (perhaps a bored retired law professor ?) and who would not rip you off. Just how much do you think it would cost and how long would it drag on ?

Some simple maths.

If the total cost was 10m baht over 10 years and you had 100 people then it would cost each of them Bt10,000 a year and people would not pay that. Get down to Bt1000 a person and you'd need the support of 1000 people over 10 years. Totally impractical, nevermind the administration charges.

Then you have the very real possibility that they make an example of one person and suddenly he is out of a job or has his visa revoked. What then ? It is not your country and though it would be the wives pushing for change, it would be the individuals who suffer.

The only way I see it could come through would be for a human rights group (and they have more to worry about than this) or a Thai womans group to take it on.

It is wrong but there are some battles you fight and some you walk away from.

[Mario2008]

Judicial costs are always high. But as I said before, there is good change it wouldn't even come to a trail. Thailand has woamn rights group and this relates directly to them. Also ASEAN wants to establish a human rights commission of its own. Thailand doesn't want to be the first to be investigated.

[george]

Forget it! Someone tried this a few years ago on a minor scale. A miserable failure, unfortunately.

[Cuban]

How many Thai men / farang women marriages would be affected if the courts simply re-worded the relavent acts to be equal - but at the less farang freindly terms.

[Mario2008]

How many Thai men / farang women marriages would be affected if the courts simply re-worded the relavent acts to be equal - but at the less farang freindly terms.

That is indeed a good point. A Thai court could only say that the rules must be equal for men and women. Not that the rules for Thai men would have to be applied for Thai women married to a foreigner too.

The Thai human rights commission is an option and is free. They will come with a stetement and present it to parlement. Then it would be up to parlement to do something.

But I'm interested in why the attempt George mentioned failed.

[Shotime]

"Or is EVERYTHING here just about SEX ??? and Money??? and Denial???'

Yes, except I'm not sure about the denial part.

[Heng]

Attention visitors, please remember to keep your arms and legs inside the monorail. When in doubt, remember to grab your ankles and remain in the bent over position and continue to enjoy your stay in the magic kingdom.

[CosmicSurfer]

Logistics is the nightmare even if you were lucky enough to get a Thai lawyer who would risk it (perhaps a bored retired law professor ?) and who would not rip you off. Just how much do you think it would cost and how long would it drag on ?

Some simple maths.

If the total cost was 10m baht over 10 years and you had 100 people then it would cost each of them Bt10,000 a year and people would not pay that. Get down to Bt1000 a person and you'd need the support of 1000 people over 10 years. Totally impractical, nevermind the administration charges.

Then you have the very real possibility that they make an example of one person and suddenly he is out of a job or has his visa revoked. What then ? It is not your country and though it would be the wives pushing for change, it would be the individuals who suffer.

The only way I see it could come through would be for a human rights group (and they have more to worry about than this) or a Thai womans group to take it on.

It is wrong but there are some battles you fight and some you walk away from.

And having an negative attitude from the start is no way to win a fight or get some Change....

At this time we have no idea what the cost would be, or how long it would take to acheive some resolution to the problem...

We also have no idea if a lawyer would be willing to take the case, but I am much more optimistic than you are that there are lawyers in this town that are more concerned with Equal rights and having an effective constitution then you may think.

Times in Thailand are beginning tio change.. playing ostrich is no answer to an ongoing problem, and a negative defeatist attitude has no reward, except continued abuse..

If you continue to allow yourself to be bullied, then you will never gain any respect.

Hooking up with a Thai Woman's Rights organization sounds like a great idea.

And again I'm much more optimistic than you about their interest in joining us.

It is in their best interest to join us if we have a winnable case.. any win is a plus for Women's rights.

The more rights that they can claim the more public perception of the importance of Gender Equality is established.

This is a classic Win / Win situation for the women's rights movement.

Don't be defeatist.. be positive.

CS

[beano2274]

Just a quick question to those here

Why is it that we, as Farangs, have to prove we can maintain a good standard of living i.e proof

about income, when married to a Thai Woman, however, if a Thai and Thai are married no proof

of income are necessary, surely this is discrimination. I am not aware of such a rule in other countries,

maybe someone else knows different.

[Mario2008]

Website of the National Human Rights Commission Thailand:

http://www.nhrc.or.th/index.php?lang=EN

[sbk]

My understanding, as a western woman married to a Thai man, and from my experience with our applications, is that Immigration, at least, views the man as the head of the family and the man must be able to provide for his wife. This is reinforced in that when I fill out the extension application my husband must also fill out an application requesting permission for his wife to stay. My visa is down to him, not me. He must show that he earns income and pays taxes as well.

Now, for the western man, you are not a citizen of this country and therefor must jump through quite a few hoops in order to work here. Given that you are the one who is the head of the household, you must show that you can also provide for your Thai wife. and given that many of you are not working you must be able to prove that you can take care of your wife without working.

Not saying its fair, but that is my understanding of the thinking behind the policy.

And yes, it is pretty darn sexist, but this is not my country, I don't make the rules, I just have to abide by them. As for the class action suit, well, good luck.

[beano2274]

Website of the National Human Rights Commission Thailand:

http://www.nhrc.or.th/index.php?lang=EN

Section 30. All persons are equal before the law and shall enjoy equal protection under the law. Men and women shall enjoy equal rights. Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of the difference in origin, race, language, sex, age, physical or health condition, personal status, economic or social standing, religious belief, education or constitutionally political view, shall not be permitted. Measures determined by the State in order to eliminate obstacle to or to promote persons' ability to exercise their rights and liberties as other persons shall not be deemed as unjust discrimination under paragraph three.

[ozinthailand]

u cant be serious..... move on......

[ubonjoe]

My understanding, as a western woman married to a Thai man, and from my experience with our applications, is that Immigration, at least, views the man as the head of the family and the man must be able to provide for his wife. This is reinforced in that when I fill out the extension application my husband must also fill out an application requesting permission for his wife to stay. My visa is down to him, not me. He must show that he earns income and pays taxes as well.

Now, for the western man, you are not a citizen of this country and therefor must jump through quite a few hoops in order to work here. Given that you are the one who is the head of the household, you must show that you can also provide for your Thai wife. and given that many of you are not working you must be able to prove that you can take care of your wife without working.

Not saying its fair, but that is my understanding of the thinking behind the policy.

And yes, it is pretty darn sexist, but this is not my country, I don't make the rules, I just have to abide by them. As for the class action suit, well, good luck.

Thank for your input SBK.

It's fine that they expect us to be head of household. But at least make it easier for us to earn some money. The only break we get is the reduction of the number of employees and income that a business has to make. Why not some type of general work permit that would alow us to work in any non prohibited job.

The same rule for getting Thai citizneship that you have would be good. You don't have to get a PR first we do and don't even get much of break to get it other than the income and the fee reduction.

Before the new change in rules I could use my wifes income to help meet the requirement now thats gone. I don't need her income now but I might later. We don't need 40,000 baht to live we own our home and land outright with almost no monthly to bills to pay.

You say your husband has to show income but it is not called out in the rules.

I am not sure the law suit is the best way or the only way. It might be good to have two prong attack a law suit and a petition drive to get some political attention.

Sorry for the rant its not meant for you.

Joe

[beano2274]

My understanding, as a western woman married to a Thai man, and from my experience with our applications, is that Immigration, at least, views the man as the head of the family and the man must be able to provide for his wife. This is reinforced in that when I fill out the extension application my husband must also fill out an application requesting permission for his wife to stay. My visa is down to him, not me. He must show that he earns income and pays taxes as well.

Now, for the western man, you are not a citizen of this country and therefor must jump through quite a few hoops in order to work here. Given that you are the one who is the head of the household, you must show that you can also provide for your Thai wife. and given that many of you are not working you must be able to prove that you can take care of your wife without working.

Not saying its fair, but that is my understanding of the thinking behind the policy.

And yes, it is pretty darn sexist, but this is not my country, I don't make the rules, I just have to abide by them. As for the class action suit, well, good luck.

thanks for the answer, but actually my wife has to sign a piece of paper as well, asking for permission for me to stay here, but glad to hear the story from the other side.

Does he have to show income of 40,000 baht? or less?

Edited December 5, 2008 by beano2274

[CosmicSurfer]

Forget it! Someone tried this a few years ago on a minor scale. A miserable failure, unfortunately.

Hmmm... well... Times Change... and the constitution has changed.

Sometimes these things just take time and repeated attempts before Justice prevails.

But this is interesting:

The Complaints Procedure and Investigation of Complaints

Under the National Human Rights Commission Act B.E 2542 (1999), the Commission is authorized:

1) To investigate alleged human rights violation case which is not pending or judged in the Court of Law

2) To investigate alleged human rights violation on its own initiative;

3) To act upon complaints regarding governmental and non-governmental commissions or omissions of acts which violate human rights;

4) To summon individuals or agencies concerned to give written statement of facts or opinions concerning the case, to deliver objects, documents or other related evidence, and to send a representative to give statements;

5) To summon individuals, juristic persons or private agencies concerned to give evidence;

6) To request the court to issue a warrant for entering into a dwelling or any place for investigation.

What to expect after filing a complaint?

The complainant should be notified of the receipt by the NHRC within 3 days.

Provided that the complaint is within the Commission's jurisdiction and with reasonable ground, the investigation will be conducted.

If it is proved that the human rights violation is committed, the Commission will propose remedial measures to responsible individuals or organizations.

Procedure to File Complaint - National Human Rights Commission

If I get a chance.. I just may go visit them next week.

CS