New Govt To Unveil Populist Policies

henryalleman · December 26, 2008

Economics in Beer Terms:

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce

the cost of your daily beer by $20."Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could

they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner

suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once

outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important.

They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

This calculations and conclusions are baloney and you know it. Furthermore its have nothing to do with the topic I wrote about China.

And this is said by a taxpayer who payed 45% taxes on his wages till he retired. Because when I retired, my pension money is 75% of my income, so I get a much higher pension than somebody with a low salary. In fact it can be 3 times more than average. So what I put in will come back.

Because my government provide a state pension, unlike the US, where they still believe in the survival of the fittest. Because they prefer to spend billions on the military instead of a social system who benefits everybody.

neverdie · December 26, 2008

Henry, I am struggling to understand you're point here about the taxes you paid on your income.....then you start talking about getting a higher pension....are you referring to superannuation?....what country are you from?

Venturalaw is spot on with his example....I have used the same one before BUT you can't explain this to some people, they just don't get it. I'm not actually having a shot at you....trying to understand what your point is about income tax and pensions?

venturalaw · December 26, 2008

This calculations and conclusions are baloney and you know it. Furthermore its have nothing to do with the topic I wrote about China.
And this is said by a taxpayer who payed 45% taxes on his wages till he retired. Because when I retired, my pension money is 75% of my income, so I get a much higher pension than somebody with a low salary. In fact it can be 3 times more than average. So what I put in will come back.

Because my government provide a state pension, unlike the US, where they still believe in the survival of the fittest. Because they prefer to spend billions on the military instead of a social system who benefits everybody.

You really should not speak about the US. for it is clear that you have no idea and therefore look foolish.

You said previously that you are not a socialist.

It is also clear that you just don't get it. Perhaps some social program could help you.

henryalleman · December 26, 2008

Henry, I am struggling to understand you're point here about the taxes you paid on your income.....then you start talking about getting a higher pension....are you referring to superannuation?....what country are you from?
Venturalaw is spot on with his example....I have used the same one before BUT you can't explain this to some people, they just don't get it. I'm not actually having a shot at you....trying to understand what your point is about income tax and pensions?

No problem, glad to help you out, because there is a great misunderstanding amongst US citizens about the so called welfare system in Europe.

I'm from Flanders (Belgium) and we have they highest taxes and social security rates in the world. They calculate the pension on your earned income on a 45 year career, so a full pension is 45/45

and its is 70% of your medium yearly income during your career. Of course the first years you earned less and there is also inflation. But the recalculate this earnings to the cost of living today. The times that you where unemployed or sick are calculated as the income if you where working on the salary of that period. So for instance if you get an hearth disease and can not work the last 10 years, they calculated as normal working years with an income that you would normaly had. Also they increase this theoretical income with the inflation rate. BTW the man with an hearth dissease who can not work anymore get an monthly income of 65% (married) of his last salary, also inflation secured. The fist 30 day's of sicknesss his employer must pay him his normal salary.

The pension office( government) pay your pension every month in your bankacount and every year in May you get an additional holliday check. This pension is inflation secured. Meaning they calculated the infalation every month, when the medium inflation during a period of 3 months is up 2%, your pension is also going up 2%. This to prevent that how older you are how lower your income if it was not inflation secured. Beside that every couple years its go up also to keep the gap between salary's and pensions limited.

You can retire early at the age of 60 but only if you worked 35 years than you get 35/45 of the normal pension. the taxes on income are lower than on normal wages.

The official pensions are limited to an certain amount I thinks its about 3000 Euro monthy I think.

Everybody who work benefit from this system, so also an untrained worker in some mediocer job.

Every EU country have in principal a pension system like that; In some EU countries the pesion is up to 90% of your last salary.

And thats why we don't minbd to pay high taxes because we get a lot in return. And thats also Europeans don't mind a retribution of wealth so everybody can habe an deacent life.

And of course their are leaches who f***k the system, but this is a small minority and most of the time they get caught.?

people who never worked get welfare money, and this is in Belgium about 600 Euro a month for a single and 800 EURO monthly for a family. If you know that the medium rent is about 550 Euro without gas, electric and heating you realy don't have much luxury.

If you like to inform yourself a litle bit more about the subject

http://www.socialezekerheid.fgov.be/en/index.htm

http://www.belgium.be/en/health/index.jsp

http://www.belgium.be/en/index.jsp

I would like to emphazise that there are countries in the EU with a much higher social protection than Belgium. And its in no way bragging or ranting about belgium, Its just giving the information asked for.

But reading all of this maybe know you understand that Obama is not a socialist at all in the eyes of Europeans, and wy we believ that the US system is not so good at all.

neverdie · December 27, 2008

Thanks for that Henry,

I was unaware of Belgium's tax and welfare system. I am not American, I am Australian and I thought we had some serious tax rates (& we do, however we certainly don't have the social welfare system that you guys have).

It may be the case that people from your country have the highest tax rates in the world, but the benifits would match that. If you were to look at the Australian taxation rates (not just income tax) and then looked at what state provided benifits are provided or allowed for people earning an income in the higher income tax brackets, you would see that Venturalaw's theory would most certainly apply.

For example, on Australian income of $400k, approx 192k Euro, you would pay about 163k (down from 178k) in personal income tax...ie: Nearly 41%. (Australia has a tiered rate of tax on income). Anyway, so after you've lost 41% of income on tax then you have to set out paying all the other taxes, as you move about the community, for example we have:

GST 10%

Capital Gains Tax

Superannuation Taxes

Excise tax

Property taxes

Inheritance taxes

Stamp duty

and a few others I can't think of immediately. THEN

we also have, levy (tax) where percentage fees are put on things such as insurance policies, fuel and other stuff like that.

In Australia there is a basic welfare system that hands out $ after $ to just about anyone that wants it (Please note, I do not object to helping out those in need....but prior to the current economic turndown or whatever you want to call it, it isnt uncommon to see townships in certain areas of Australia with high unemployment 20% ++ and businesses that can't fill a broad range of positions. The public health care system is broken, so high income earners (if they are smart) pay for private health insurance. It is likely that there will be no government pension system for someone my age & in any case it is means tested & any other benifits to high income earners are virtually non existent, depending on the circumstances.

Anyway, Belgium might have high taxes, they would certainly appear to reap the benifits of these. Australia has very high taxes & the benifits not so Generous.

It would seem, in Australia that Venturalaws beer story is a good one & that wage earners in the top tax brackets are constantly belted and critised by people that don't understand this theory.

Anyway, thanks for your reply

neverdie · December 27, 2008

Henry, I was also interested to compare other facts about Belgium compared to Australia & THAILAND, of course this affects the way taxation is applied too.

Belgium is only .397% the size of Australia, yes thats a little over one third of one percentage point. Australia actually has farms bigger than Belgium, in fact Australia has the largest 'farm'in the world, its a cattle farm which is 34,000 square kilometres in size, where Belgium is only 30,528 square km. Australias largest farm is much larger than anything in the United States, in fact USA doenst even get 2nd or 3rd place. At the present time there are 18 people living on that parcel of land. (That would be the equivalent of 16 people residing in belgium)

Belgium(approx 10.5 million) has about half the population size of Australia (21 million).

The GDP per capita is $36,200 for belgium & 37,300 for Australia.

There are many interesting facts that give insight into why taxes are different throughout the world, it would seem Belgium has a fantasic social service but you are all crammed into that place like maggots in a matchbox! If Australia had the same amount of people per km square as belgium we would have 2,644,274,400 people, THATS almost 2.7 trillion people.

Thailand has almost 65,500 million people, it is 514,000 square km, its GDP per capita just $8000. If Thailand had the same amount of people per km square it would have almost 1.7 trillion people.

Edited December 27, 2008 by neverdie

henryalleman · December 27, 2008

Thanks for that Henry,
I was unaware of Belgium's tax and welfare system. I am not American, I am Australian and I thought we had some serious tax rates (& we do, however we certainly don't have the social welfare system that you guys have).

It may be the case that people from your country have the highest tax rates in the world, but the benifits would match that. If you were to look at the Australian taxation rates (not just income tax) and then looked at what state provided benifits are provided or allowed for people earning an income in the higher income tax brackets, you would see that Venturalaw's theory would most certainly apply.

For example, on Australian income of $400k, approx 192k Euro, you would pay about 163k (down from 178k) in personal income tax...ie: Nearly 41%. (Australia has a tiered rate of tax on income). Anyway, so after you've lost 41% of income on tax then you have to set out paying all the other taxes, as you move about the community, for example we have:

GST 10%

Capital Gains Tax

Superannuation Taxes

Excise tax

Property taxes

Inheritance taxes

Stamp duty

and a few others I can't think of immediately. THEN

we also have, levy (tax) where percentage fees are put on things such as insurance policies, fuel and other stuff like that.

In Australia there is a basic welfare system that hands out $ after $ to just about anyone that wants it (Please note, I do not object to helping out those in need....but prior to the current economic turndown or whatever you want to call it, it isnt uncommon to see townships in certain areas of Australia with high unemployment 20% ++ and businesses that can't fill a broad range of positions. The public health care system is broken, so high income earners (if they are smart) pay for private health insurance. It is likely that there will be no government pension system for someone my age & in any case it is means tested & any other benifits to high income earners are virtually non existent, depending on the circumstances.

Anyway, Belgium might have high taxes, they would certainly appear to reap the benifits of these. Australia has very high taxes & the benifits not so Generous.

It would seem, in Australia that Venturalaws beer story is a good one & that wage earners in the top tax brackets are constantly belted and critised by people that don't understand this theory.

Anyway, thanks for your reply

Don't worry we have a lot of other taxes also

cars 21% vat

Food 6% vat

Water and softdrinks 21% vat

tax on fix accounts 15% VAT on interests

Restaurant 21% VAT

Road tax

Tax on telephone 21%

property tax depends on where your house is build

beer; wine, and spirists 21%

inheritance tax from 6 to 85% depend on relationship

The list is endless.

In General we work till 15 september for the government, the other 3,5 months we can start to work for ourself.

But on the + side we have a lot of support from the government

house owners get subsidized up to 75% fore put energy saving measures like solar energy cells, low energy heating burners, isolation and so on. The same they can deduct it from there taxes, so in fact its free. Also they promote the building industry by subsidizing renovations of houses, because this create a lot af different jobs.

If you get un-employed they invite you for an interview and you must follow schooling to learn new abbilities needed on the job market. If you refuse you loose your stamp money. They even training you to write your CV.

If you sell your car and don't buy a new one you get free public transport- for 3 year.

Children under the age of 12 and people over 65 can use the tram and busses free nationwide.

Companies who hire people over 50 get sunbsidized, also when they hire youngsters with no experience and low education will be subsidized.

The elderly get subsidized household help, shopping help, meals on wheels and house nurse to give them a bath and so on. The money paid depend on your income.

This is redistribution of wealth based on solidarity, the young don't mind pay this for the elederly because they know later they will get the same benefits and thats also why we don't put the system in question, because everybody benefits, also the rich.

And again this is not exclusive for Belgium, most EU countries have the same kind of benefits for their population. But this system is is only livable with a low unemployemt rate and a very high productivity.

But when you retire outside the EU, you still get your monthly pension money the same as you lived in belgium but it must be paid in a Belgian bankaccount and must pay belgian taxzs you can't have national healthcare anymore, but you still have to pay contributions.

i think that Thailand must aim in the long therm for such system who benefit the whole population

and not only pampering the already rich.

henryalleman · December 27, 2008

Henry, I was also interested to compare other facts about Belgium compared to Australia & THAILAND, of course this affects the way taxation is applied too.
Belgium is only .397% the size of Australia, yes thats a little over one third of one percentage point. Australia actually has farms bigger than Belgium, in fact Australia has the largest 'farm'in the world, its a cattle farm which is 34,000 square kilometres in size, where Belgium is only 30,528 square km. Australias largest farm is much larger than anything in the United States, in fact USA doenst even get 2nd or 3rd place. At the present time there are 18 people living on that parcel of land. (That would be the equivalent of 16 people residing in belgium)

Belgium(approx 10.5 million) has about half the population size of Australia (21 million).

The GDP per capita is $36,200 for belgium & 37,300 for Australia.

There are many interesting facts that give insight into why taxes are different throughout the world, it would seem Belgium has a fantasic social service but you are all crammed into that place like maggots in a matchbox! If Australia had the same amount of people per km square as belgium we would have 2,644,274,400 people, THATS almost 2.7 trillion people.

Thailand has almost 65,500 million people, it is 514,000 square km, its GDP per capita just $8000. If Thailand had the same amount of people per km square it would have almost 1.7 trillion people.

That's the reason why many Fleming immigrate to Australia, they like the relax Aussie way of live. In Victoria there is even a town called Antwerp.

In general Belgians and Flemings like Australia, maybe because we have many Aussie cyclists living in Belgium, and we have many Aussie TV soaps on Flemish TV.

neverdie · December 27, 2008

They must like victoria because its a cold sh#t of a place.

chrislarsson · December 27, 2008

But to take from those who are successful and to provide to those who have little initiative is flat out wrong.

Well, how Protestant of you in your views of the poor. They are poor because of lack of initiative and not due to circumstances such as geography, access to education, or access to credit. And of course your perceived success is completely due to your personal god-given initiative.

I can't believe how many of you neo-sahib ex-pats believe this nonsense. Onwards Christian Soldiers and a Merry Christmas to you all as you relish in your wealth and comfort. Baby Jesus would be so freakin proud.

Excellent postings Johpa

venturalaw · December 27, 2008

But to take from those who are successful and to provide to those who have little initiative is flat out wrong.

Well, how Protestant of you in your views of the poor. They are poor because of lack of initiative and not due to circumstances such as geography, access to education, or access to credit. And of course your perceived success is completely due to your personal god-given initiative.

I can't believe how many of you neo-sahib ex-pats believe this nonsense. Onwards Christian Soldiers and a Merry Christmas to you all as you relish in your wealth and comfort. Baby Jesus would be so freakin proud.

Excellent postings Johpa

Taking one phrase out of context, and then jumping to the conclusion that I feel that I have 'god-given' 'perceived success' to support your judgment about me is characteristic of the victim mentality. Praising it is equally simplistic. As I stated, it is my desire to see the poor become more successful. You chose to ignore this fact. Class envy is a virus that impedes growth at all levels. Your lack of ability to grasp this concept is unfortunately common, and very sad.

Johpa · December 27, 2008

Venturalaw is spot on with his example....I have used the same one before BUT you can't explain this to some people, they just don't get it. I'm not actually having a shot at you....trying to understand what your point is about income tax and pensions?

Well here goes my sad class envy on display again, but Venturelaw's example, the exact same moronic parable, word for word, that I have had sent to me in countless e-mails over the past several years, has at least one fatal flaw in its concept. It assumes that income distribution would be represented by a straight line slope on a graph and this is simply not the case.

As for class envy and jealousy charges being levied against anyone who criticizes those who imagine themselves to be of a higher economic class than the one doing the criticism, it is just a droll ad hominen attack. I would point out similar criticisms against sectors of the elite being made by the likes of Warren Buffet and Bill Gates Sr. directed at those who oppose the Estate Tax in the US. Are we to imagine that they too suffer from class envy? Now I am certainly not in the same economic class as are Buffet and Gates, but I may not be from a class significantly different from that of Venturalaw, but this is not a forum where any such claims could be verified so it becomes a moot point.

venturalaw · December 28, 2008

Venturalaw is spot on with his example....I have used the same one before BUT you can't explain this to some people, they just don't get it. I'm not actually having a shot at you....trying to understand what your point is about income tax and pensions?

Well here goes my sad class envy on display again, but Venturelaw's example, the exact same moronic parable, word for word, that I have had sent to me in countless e-mails over the past several years, has at least one fatal flaw in its concept. It assumes that income distribution would be represented by a straight line slope on a graph and this is simply not the case.

As for class envy and jealousy charges being levied against anyone who criticizes those who imagine themselves to be of a higher economic class than the one doing the criticism, it is just a droll ad hominen attack. I would point out similar criticisms against sectors of the elite being made by the likes of Warren Buffet and Bill Gates Sr. directed at those who oppose the Estate Tax in the US. Are we to imagine that they too suffer from class envy? Now I am certainly not in the same economic class as are Buffet and Gates, but I may not be from a class significantly different from that of Venturalaw, but this is not a forum where any such claims could be verified so it becomes a moot point.

The author of the recited "moronic parable" is Dr. David R. Kamerschen; a portion of his scholastic achievements are included hereinbelow:

B.S. Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)--June, 1959--Major in General Business

M.A. Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)--August, 1960--Major in Economics

Ph.D. Michigan State University--September, 1964--Major in Economics

Major area: Theoretical and Applied Microeconomics

Thesis topic: "An Estimation of the `Welfare Losses' from

Monopoly in the American Economy"

Teaching Experience:

Graduate Assistant: Miami University, 1959-60

Instructor: Miami University, 1960-61

Assistant Instructor: Michigan State University, Summer 1962; Summer 1964

Assistant Professor: Washington University, 1964-66

Associate Professor: University of Missouri, 1966-68

Professor: University of Missouri, 1968-74

Professor and Department Head: University of Georgia, 1974-1980.

Visiting Professor L'Université Jean Moulin (Lyon, France), Winter 1992, Winter 1995, Winter 1997, Winter 2001; University of Lodz (Lodz, Poland), Winter 1992

Professor: UGA Study Abroad Program: University in Avignon (France), Summer 2001

Distinguished Professor and holder of the Jasper N. Dorsey Chair, University of Georgia, 1980-Present.

Seminars and Conferences:

Served as speaker, discussant, chair, or attendee at such meetings as American Economic Association,

Industrial Organization Society, Midwest Economic Association, Southern Economic Association, Southeastern Public Utility Conference, Western Economic Association, and at numerous university (e.g., University of Chicago, Harvard, University of Wisconsin) and other association conferences and seminars.

Founder, Southeastern Annual Public Utility Conference, "Current Issues in Public Utility Economics," (Atlanta, 1981-present).

What are your qualifications?

Johpa · December 28, 2008

What are your qualifications?

My qualifications include having enough common sense to know that income distribution is not represented by a straight line slope as is implied in the moronic parable, and countless other nearly identical parables, attributed to any number of nameless degree holders, that have been making the e-mail rounds for the past several years. I would recommend that instead of paying heed to such silly e-mails, that you read some books by the likes of recent Nobel Laureates Stiglitz or Krugman, or other books on the subject from the likes of Pulitzer Prize winner David Cay Johnston or that upstart young radical Kevin Phillips.

permanent_disorder · December 28, 2008

But to take from those who are successful and to provide to those who have little initiative is flat out wrong.

Well, how Protestant of you in your views of the poor. They are poor because of lack of initiative and not due to circumstances such as geography, access to education, or access to credit. And of course your perceived success is completely due to your personal god-given initiative.

I can't believe how many of you neo-sahib ex-pats believe this nonsense. Onwards Christian Soldiers and a Merry Christmas to you all as you relish in your wealth and comfort. Baby Jesus would be so freakin proud.

capitalism is the coolest anarcho shit evar and have nothing to do with christianity and crusades. it is freedom, the absence of coercion of one man by a group of other mens. an individual don't have to sacrifice himself for that what a mob or a gang or collective, or the state, or a majority or a dictator demand.

Plus · December 29, 2008

Capitalism is an economic, not a social system. It was embraced by fascists, for example.

neverdie · December 29, 2008

Venturalaw is spot on with his example....I have used the same one before BUT you can't explain this to some people, they just don't get it. I'm not actually having a shot at you....trying to understand what your point is about income tax and pensions?

Well here goes my sad class envy on display again, but Venturelaw's example, the exact same moronic parable, word for word, that I have had sent to me in countless e-mails over the past several years, has at least one fatal flaw in its concept. It assumes that income distribution would be represented by a straight line slope on a graph and this is simply not the case.

As for class envy and jealousy charges being levied against anyone who criticizes those who imagine themselves to be of a higher economic class than the one doing the criticism, it is just a droll ad hominen attack. I would point out similar criticisms against sectors of the elite being made by the likes of Warren Buffet and Bill Gates Sr. directed at those who oppose the Estate Tax in the US. Are we to imagine that they too suffer from class envy? Now I am certainly not in the same economic class as are Buffet and Gates, but I may not be from a class significantly different from that of Venturalaw, but this is not a forum where any such claims could be verified so it becomes a moot point.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. Have you had your blood pressure checked recently?

hammered · December 29, 2008

But to take from those who are successful and to provide to those who have little initiative is flat out wrong.

Well, how Protestant of you in your views of the poor. They are poor because of lack of initiative and not due to circumstances such as geography, access to education, or access to credit. And of course your perceived success is completely due to your personal god-given initiative.

I can't believe how many of you neo-sahib ex-pats believe this nonsense. Onwards Christian Soldiers and a Merry Christmas to you all as you relish in your wealth and comfort. Baby Jesus would be so freakin proud.

capitalism is the coolest anarcho shit evar and have nothing to do with christianity and crusades. it is freedom, the absence of coercion of one man by a group of other mens. an individual don't have to sacrifice himself for that what a mob or a gang or collective, or the state, or a majority or a dictator demand.

Capitalism is by its nature exploitive. Plenty of individuals get sacrfiiced around the world under capitalism. Fact. It may be a system that works or does not depending on opinions but the expoitative nature of it cannot be denied. It is not a tool of freeing all at all.

animatic · December 29, 2008

It's funny...every time a Thai government does something to improve living standards for poor people...it's called populist

It might called populist as usually it does not improve the the living standards much, it is just populist.

Getting a credit to buy a new mobile phone from Thaksin, while never being able to pay it back.

Handing out millions to villages from which the head of village build himself a villa.

Handing out money for starting business, but in fact people buy mobile phones, motorbikes, pick ups and later they are not able to pay it back...

Therefor it is called populist. It is nice on the paper, it sounds nice, in real life it does not help much.

That sounds more like bad oversight of lending practices. Otherwise the idea of micro-loans seems to be a good idea. Why else would it deserve a Nobel Peace Prize?

I never heard anybody calling Muhammad Yunus a populist. And if I'm not wrong, mobile phones were one of the priorities in his micro-loans. Since when was investing in IT bad investment?

If only the concept of Micro-Loans was actually put to use here.

With appropriate local oversight. But who locally will observe and advise in

an official capacity,m that isn't co-opted by the local power structure.. oops catch 22

And the money was going to those places that voted TRT, and with held from those that didn't.

But it's as you say money is throw into the provinces and used for

'making face' over the neighbors in short term, or just sanuk.

It just fed the class wars: all 65 MILLION of them.

Each Thai appears to be in an individual class war combatant, with infinite

variables to any other Thai they EVERY meet, even their best friends'

Potjamin and her kunying friends, same as Granny Niet in Ubon and her circle.

Just how high that wai must go, how far up the arm to grab, how often and high the eyes can be raised.

Can I wear the new necklace or will it appear to be showing up the boss wife,

so hubby loses that next promotion, but if I like to down in the heel, he might not get it because

we look to low to be a good promotion prospect.

If there can be broad strokes to this class struggle

it is just a general grouping with it's myriad varibles drawing an economic line

and group some just made it's there, and we can now call them oppressors,

of their cousins that they just out earned by 10%.

A kow tow based culture has no hope of being classless,

but it also will have endless categories of classes.

It's not like the untouchables of India for instance. A smart fellow from Issan

CAN walk into Bangkok and prosper if his wants to. Not easy, but when is it easy?

The new focus on education is the best hope for sure.

At least people who understand the benefits seem to be moving on improving it.

animatic · December 29, 2008

But to take from those who are successful and to provide to those who have little initiative is flat out wrong.

Well, how Protestant of you in your views of the poor. They are poor because of lack of initiative and not due to circumstances such as geography, access to education, or access to credit. And of course your perceived success is completely due to your personal god-given initiative.

I can't believe how many of you neo-sahib ex-pats believe this nonsense. Onwards Christian Soldiers and a Merry Christmas to you all as you relish in your wealth and comfort. Baby Jesus would be so freakin proud.

capitalism is the coolest anarcho shit evar and have nothing to do with christianity and crusades. it is freedom, the absence of coercion of one man by a group of other mens. an individual don't have to sacrifice himself for that what a mob or a gang or collective, or the state, or a majority or a dictator demand.

I guess you haven't been observing ALL sectors of functional capitalism in application.....

For each Jean Val Jean using those methods for the good of all,

while being loved for it, and not being marxist in any way,

there is a Bernie Madoff, making a killing on the backs of his own people.

Or presidents of the big three car makers begging alms from the little people, like me,

while flying in corporate jets to do it, and preparing to lay off 10s of thousands of family supporting workers

because THE CEOs can't read the market properly.

I agree employers need some flexibility with staffing, vs the French jobs for life thing,

but there is also a need for limits and reciprocity in layoffs too.

Bonuses and bosses golden parachutes evaporate when large layoffs are needed. etc.

Retraining for other jobs should be mandatory for any kind of large working class layoff.

You must look at the local market that dried up and train them for one that hasn't dried up.

I also think employees make a company go much as the investing backers do.

BOTH sides want return on their investment of capital AND labor,

and deserve to be nailed by bad times equaly, not biased exclusively towards investors.

And I AM an investor, so don't start calling names. I understand FULLY what this means to me.

But you must look long term and globally or we get chaos.

One doesn't work without the other.

Edited December 29, 2008 by animatic

venturalaw · December 29, 2008

What are your qualifications?

My qualifications include having enough common sense to know that income distribution is not represented by a straight line slope as is implied in the moronic parable, and countless other nearly identical parables, attributed to any number of nameless degree holders, that have been making the e-mail rounds for the past several years. I would recommend that instead of paying heed to such silly e-mails, that you read some books by the likes of recent Nobel Laureates Stiglitz or Krugman, or other books on the subject from the likes of Pulitzer Prize winner David Cay Johnston or that upstart young radical Kevin Phillips.

In other words, no qualifications - just rage. Pity.

venturalaw · December 29, 2008

But to take from those who are successful and to provide to those who have little initiative is flat out wrong.

Well, how Protestant of you in your views of the poor. They are poor because of lack of initiative and not due to circumstances such as geography, access to education, or access to credit. And of course your perceived success is completely due to your personal god-given initiative.

I can't believe how many of you neo-sahib ex-pats believe this nonsense. Onwards Christian Soldiers and a Merry Christmas to you all as you relish in your wealth and comfort. Baby Jesus would be so freakin proud.

capitalism is the coolest anarcho shit evar and have nothing to do with christianity and crusades. it is freedom, the absence of coercion of one man by a group of other mens. an individual don't have to sacrifice himself for that what a mob or a gang or collective, or the state, or a majority or a dictator demand.

I guess you haven't been observing ALL sectors of functional capitalism in application.....

For each Jean Val Jean using those methods for the good of all,

while being loved for it, and not being marxist in any way,

there is a Bernie Madoff, making a killing on the backs of his own people.

Or presidents of the big three car makers begging alms from the little people, like me,

while flying in corporate jets to do it, and preparing to lay off 10s of thousands of family supporting workers

because THE CEOs can't read the market properly.

I agree employers need some flexibility with staffing, vs the French jobs for life thing,

but there is also a need for limits and reciprocity in layoffs too.

Bonuses and bosses golden parachutes evaporate when large layoffs are needed. etc.

Retraining for other jobs should be mandatory for any kind of large working class layoff.

You must look at the local market that dried up and train them for one that hasn't dried up.

I also think employees make a company go much as the investing backers do.

BOTH sides want return on their investment of capital AND labor,

and deserve to be nailed by bad times equaly, not biased exclusively towards investors.

And I AM an investor, so don't start calling names. I understand FULLY what this means to me.

But you must look long term and globally or we get chaos.

One doesn't work without the other.

Very well presented. I am more of a libertarian than a conservative, however, I agree with much of what you stated. By the way, perhaps you have noticed that I am not the author of insulting comments. Insults are primarily posted by the liberals who often brag of their unique sensitivity.

Samuian · December 29, 2008

..................edited........
Each Thai appears to be in an individual class war combatant, with infinite

variables to any other Thai they EVERY meet, even their best friends'

Potjamin and her kunying friends, same as Granny Niet in Ubon and her circle.

Just how high that wai must go, how far up the arm to grab, how often and high the eyes can be raised.

Can I wear the new necklace or will it appear to be showing up the boss wife,

so hubby loses that next promotion, but if I like to down in the heel, he might not get it because

we look to low to be a good promotion prospect.

If there can be broad strokes to this class struggle

it is just a general grouping with it's myriad varibles drawing an economic line

and group some just made it's there, and we can now call them oppressors,

of their cousins that they just out earned by 10%.

A kow tow based culture has no hope of being classless,

but it also will have endless categories of classes.

It's not like the untouchables of India for instance. A smart fellow from Issan

CAN walk into Bangkok and prosper if his wants to. Not easy, but when is it easy?

The new focus on education is the best hope for sure.

At least people who understand the benefits seem to be moving on improving it.

And this education should focus very much on weeding the above out, this is a prime reason for anyone to block or move anything!

Some sort of deep rooted "grass root" power, no matter what and how a decision has been made, if it was made by the "big Boy" it's always right and everyone will give it his nod, not because all agree, no because they have to!

It's the core of the problem, this country runs again, and again into the same snare, cause it is all set up and deep rooted to just this point and ready to be exploited by anyone who is able to draw the loyalty of the "big Boys", see Newin and the other Chief's of the Provinces it isn't accidental that they are the same time the Party bosses!

Suphanburi has become Banharn-City and few really think anything of it!

Ms.20% is a typical phenomena, drawn to excess with the Tax-Sin Administration!

Edited December 29, 2008 by Samuian

henryalleman · December 29, 2008