Thai Officials Blamed For Deaths

[animatic]

They were 'let off the leash' specifically and this is the result.

Not dissimilarly to the War On Drugs...

Just another hash mark on his Machiavellian chit sheet.

Then.

Now.

Seemingly the 'martial powers that be', are currently protecting the commanders asses,

because if it isn't stopped at the lower levels, then it would just rise through the ranks,

likely to the top, as it truly deserves to have done.

The bucks stops here has been handed down to the lowest denominator.

Not the highest of responsibles. As those who were lower have since moved upwards.

Who has been duped?

It was clear all along the brotherhood of the military won't clean it's own shop.

The pressure exerted on those judges must have been phenomenal....

How many men in this country have NOT donned a uniform? Not many.

It is ingrained in the countries fiber to stay in line come what may.

Doesn't make any of it RIGHT, just makes clear generational change

and cleaning house, will take more education and time than any of us like.

Nauseated silence in no way condones this travesty.

The south will not take this well, you can bet on that....

Edited May 31, 2009 by animatic

[justanothercybertosser]

And who was the Oberkommando at the time of the deaths? Your hero, Col Thaksin.

Yeah, right.

Only, at the Tak Bai incident you can accuse Thaksin at most of having made increadibly insensitive remarks in the aftermath. He hardly gave the orders to stack the detainees in the trucks. The sad irony here is that so far the only punishement that was actually given to the ranking officers involved on the ground was during Thaksin's time - a whopping transferral to inactive posts. For a short period of time...

That is actually a bit different than the drug war killings, where there would be a link to Thaksin (and others) if one would make the effort to search for one.

This one here is on the security forces alone.

[Oscheck]

I got almost killed bye security of a club, mainly consisting of police and army, because I caught a waitress stealing money from a customer and complained about it. I endured an attack on a stairs bye 7 security people and managed to get away within 15 seconds on the street, leaving me with a broken nose, broken and bruised ribs, hurt my head, knee, hips, arm and back. Pressed charges 3 times. Nothing happened. If I didn't get up that fast, they'd kick me to death and leave me in a ditch some where claiming I was robbed bye some gang and show my body on the local television whilst showing some boys caught boys with desperate faces, because they didn't do it.

I salute Thailand, LOS, feeling sorry for those who mean well.

Back to Europe taking my wife and kid, not free of corruption, but they won't kick you to death, just lock you up and/or fine you.

I remain in peace.

[Plus]

Were soldiers acting under emergency degree? If they were, you can't sue them.

Was there a need to transport about a thousand detained men to a military camp? It sure looks so.

Did they have enough trucks? Probably not. Did they have other transport? Probably not.

They failed to sound alarm when the first trucks arrived with people already dead.

Even if they did - did the truck drivers had enough manpower to check what was going on inside? There were probably only two-three soldiers per truck with about a hundred detainees, in the middle of the jungle.

The videos that made rounds after the incident were about the initial crackdown, and it was brutal. However, here's the same "emergency degree" question. If there was a degree, suing is useless.

There must political or internal military, not legal responsibility here. Politically Thaksin made it only worse, military won't be punishing themselves very hard in any case.

Surayud made a heartfelt apology but stopped there.

Now it's Abhisit's chance to go beyond some local court decision and promise that the attitude in Bangkok will change.

The matter is a lot bigger than two Songkla judges can handle, even if the verdict was different.

[hammered]

And who was the Oberkommando at the time of the deaths? Your hero, Col Thaksin.

Yeah, right.

Only, at the Tak Bai incident you can accuse Thaksin at most of having made increadibly insensitive remarks in the aftermath. He hardly gave the orders to stack the detainees in the trucks. The sad irony here is that so far the only punishement that was actually given to the ranking officers involved on the ground was during Thaksin's time - a whopping transferral to inactive posts. For a short period of time...

That is actually a bit different than the drug war killings, where there would be a link to Thaksin (and others) if one would make the effort to search for one.

This one here is on the security forces alone.

I think that is a fair statement. Both Tak Bai and Drug War killings should be condemned regardless of whether Thaksin can be linked. It is silly to try and reduce everything to Thaksin. That though is not to say on the drug war stuff he should get a pass. I hope the legal cases on Tak Bai do not stop here. There certainly seem to be grounds to take them further.

[bungy007]

If it was me, if my son had been killed in the back of those trucks because they stacked them like things instead of treating them like human beings, I would take up arms. I can understand why terrorist groups get started when governments commit atrocities against civilians and then clear everyone involved.

Have to agree This should be considered a watershed moment. I'm appauled but not overtly suprised given the lack of Thais' sense of decency and honesty If the south went on to declare that every dead Thai soldier killed by their malitia would be in atonement for this decision then I wouldn't object!

[oldsparrow]

The Thais say:

"You sure know what (Political) Party / พรรค (การเมือง) is the most powerful one in Thailand, it's พรรคพวก (Peer Party)."

Of course, it include the interest group, the same level of social structure.

That's why the Thais are not individualist. We need friends not official complain form to guarantee our right.

And why many Farangs with instinct of their money and law and order got rip off too often and losing energy analysing the corrupted in vain.

For this topic you may see WHAT happened but it's a waste of time using the news articles to get HOW and WHY.

[jayboy]

It is silly to try and reduce everything to Thaksin.

Doesn't stop some folks from trying though.Interesting that many unreconstructed Thaksinophobes have great difficulty in accepting even a whiff of military criminality in this or any other case, as opposed to condemning at every opportunity the police force where Thaksin is perceived to have influence.Actually he has influence in the army as well, though obviously this is quiescent at the moment.The reality of course is that the military and the police are generally both rotten, corrupt and incompetent institutions and in need of root and branch reform.

As to the protection to individual soldiers offered by an emergency decree, I'm still not clear whether this applies as an earlier poster pointed out.An honourable military would of course had an internal inquiry and identified and punished the guilty.However notwithstanding the standard military rhetoric of devotion to the nation, I don't think anyone with a functioning brain cell would regard the Thai military as "honourable."The harsh truth is that many of the participants in the massacre would not have regarded the Tak Bai victims as "Thais" at all.

[Losangels]

"The harsh truth is that many of the participants in the massacre would not have regarded the Tak Bai victims as "Thais" at all.

Agree with you but not only partipants think that way, a majority of people in the country also think that way. Usually people in the far south are refered to as Thai muslims instead of simply "Thais".

Looks like emergency laws in the south will still be enforced indefinately.

[jayboy]

"The harsh truth is that many of the participants in the massacre would not have regarded the Tak Bai victims as "Thais" at all.

Agree with you but not only partipants think that way, a majority of people in the country also think that way. Usually people in the far south are refered to as Thai muslims instead of simply "Thais".

Looks like emergency laws in the south will still be enforced indefinately.

It's a shifting perception of who is "Thai" and who is not, or who is partially "Thai" and who is fully "Thai".I place Thai in inverted commas because the concept of Thai -ness in fact a relatively recent construction.

Chang Noi explains eloquently in a piece on Tak Bai from 2004

http://www.geocities.com/changnoi2/newflag.htm

I'm personally always bemused at the sight of relatively recent descendants of Chinese immigrants (mostly Swatow coolies) pontificating about the Thai-ness of Southerners who have been resident for many hundreds of years.

[hammered]

"The harsh truth is that many of the participants in the massacre would not have regarded the Tak Bai victims as "Thais" at all.

Agree with you but not only partipants think that way, a majority of people in the country also think that way. Usually people in the far south are refered to as Thai muslims instead of simply "Thais".

Looks like emergency laws in the south will still be enforced indefinately.

It's a shifting perception of who is "Thai" and who is not, or who is partially "Thai" and who is fully "Thai".I place Thai in inverted commas because the concept of Thai -ness in fact a relatively recent construction.

Chang Noi explains eloquently in a piece on Tak Bai from 2004

http://www.geocities.com/changnoi2/newflag.htm

I'm personally always bemused at the sight of relatively recent descendants of Chinese immigrants (mostly Swatow coolies) pontificating about the Thai-ness of Southerners who have been resident for many hundreds of years.

Imho we are going to see a continuing rise in nationalism right through the period of big change coming down the line. Everyone will be outdoing everyone else to show their national pride and loyalty and more worryingly to quickly try to relabel others as lacking in these qualities. Regardless of who is in power, there will also no doubt be all kind of government schemes to raise Thainess, remind people of what is right and proper and out unThai behaviour/dress/etc. No doubt schools and universities will also join in as will local communities. It is likely going to be a period of retrenchment into traditonal and older values than a move into change and new ideas.

[plachon]

And who was the Oberkommando at the time of the deaths? Your hero, Col Thaksin.

Yeah, right.

Only, at the Tak Bai incident you can accuse Thaksin at most of having made increadibly insensitive remarks in the aftermath. He hardly gave the orders to stack the detainees in the trucks. The sad irony here is that so far the only punishement that was actually given to the ranking officers involved on the ground was during Thaksin's time - a whopping transferral to inactive posts. For a short period of time...

That is actually a bit different than the drug war killings, where there would be a link to Thaksin (and others) if one would make the effort to search for one.

This one here is on the security forces alone.

I think that is a fair statement. Both Tak Bai and Drug War killings should be condemned regardless of whether Thaksin can be linked. It is silly to try and reduce everything to Thaksin. That though is not to say on the drug war stuff he should get a pass. I hope the legal cases on Tak Bai do not stop here. There certainly seem to be grounds to take them further.

Agreed. There are far wider structural questions to be addressed that led to both deadly events. The police, the military and the bureaucracy's role in each are crucial to understanding how they were allowed to occur. And then there is the perhaps even more troubling question of wider Thai society's general lack of concern about these kind of events, where hundreds or even thousands (in the case of the Drugs War) can be maimed or killed by state officials with almost complete impunity.

However, having said this, it should not be forgotten that Tak Bai (and the terrible day of the Krue Sae mosque incident where over a hundred Thais lost their lives) did not come about in a vacuum. It is interesting to consider how the conditions came about for the clear escalation in violence in the South and who was in charge at the time. I remember around 2003/04 as the troubles escalated following the PM's new policy for the South was put into action and the chains of command were changed in the police and army (with a certain Chaisit Shinawatra being put in charge), how a slew of Thai books came out with titles like "Fai Mai Pak Tai", analysing the cause of the troubles. And that was before Tak Bai. And guess who they largely blamed for much of the problems. This was not farang armchair analysts, but Thai academics, some of them from Songkhla University and muslims.

Personally, I'd rather go with their opinion on who can be held responsible for the kind of incident seen at Tak Bai and one particular name cropped up a lot.

[caf]

The Thais say:

"You sure know what (Political) Party / พรรค (การเมือง) is the most powerful one in Thailand, it's พรรคพวก (Peer Party)."

Of course, it include the interest group, the same level of social structure.

That's why the Thais are not individualist. We need friends not official complain form to guarantee our right.

And why many Farangs with instinct of their money and law and order got rip off too often and losing energy analysing the corrupted in vain.

For this topic you may see WHAT happened but it's a waste of time using the news articles to get HOW and WHY.

Are you saying that Thais form social groups of friends and use corruption rather than law an order? I am not clear what you mean. It would be helpful if you or others could elaborate. What is peer party

[oldsparrow]

It's the connection and group protection system. The unwritten social mechanism.

The Thais and Asian in general at different degree, form group and ID themselves also by the group. when they cann't get thing done through official channel they ask friends to accommodate them.

Some ask for faster process.

Some ask for to secure their right.

Some ask beyond the regulation and law - corruption.

As you may have experience. If you know someone in the office you have business with, he/she can get thing done for you quickly.

The control mechanism is the "Boon-Khun", the favor system, the debt that they should or must pay back.

If we ask someone we must also do something when we can. If we don't want to pay back at uncomfortable level such as beyond the law, we should not ask such thing first.

To be branded "ungrateful person" is a social crime. To be branded dog eat dog is more serious.

Connection come from group membership or between person with common interest or sometime connection for connection itself.

ie. If you are powerful enough and want to ask a stranger (with some introduction of course) for a favor. THat guy mostly do it for you specially BUT one day he may ask you to return the favor. Both side know this.

Personal influence of most people through these connection or group membership is stronger than his own authorised power and wealth.

So the Thais like to form up group

ie.

In Thai web board like TV. We post and get to know each other personally. There became online group. At one point we make appointment to see the real persons. Then we form the Group or Team, set up the team name design the team logo, make T shirt, car sticker etc. This kind grouping happens all the time in most web board, sometime the web owner even set up new rooms for each team.

Other kind of group can be family, school class mate, military/Police academy class, University faculty/class.

[Plus]

There are far wider structural questions to be addressed that led to both deadly events. The police, the military and the bureaucracy's role in each are crucial to understanding how they were allowed to occur.

If only political structures had any credibility to "clean up" the military.

The reality was that the military had to clean up politics.

[jayboy]

There are far wider structural questions to be addressed that led to both deadly events. The police, the military and the bureaucracy's role in each are crucial to understanding how they were allowed to occur.

If only political structures had any credibility to "clean up" the military.

The reality was that the military had to clean up politics.

What have you been smoking? The Thai army, notorious for its brutality and corruption, has dominated and participated in politics since the 1930's.

[Plus]

I'm talking about last two coups.

When Prem retired and politicians took over, they discredited themselves in just a couple of years. When Suchinda overthrowed Chatichai "buffet" govt in 1991 no one shed a tear (the protests started only when Suchinda tried to cling to power).

2006 coup has been discussed to death. Thaksin and TRT screwed up the country so badly that the public generally welcomed the coup.

Junta installed Surayud and he was the first ever Thai leader to sincerely apologise for Tak Bai.

When democratic government returned after 2007 elections the PM went on TV saying the religious zealots were themselves to blame, they died because they were observing Ramadan.

My point is that politicians are in no position to lecture the military on anything, let alone on Tak Bai.

[SpoliaOpima]

I'm talking about last two coups.

When Prem retired and politicians took over, they discredited themselves in just a couple of years. When Suchinda overthrowed Chatichai "buffet" govt in 1991 no one shed a tear (the protests started only when Suchinda tried to cling to power).

2006 coup has been discussed to death. Thaksin and TRT screwed up the country so badly that the public generally welcomed the coup.

Junta installed Surayud and he was the first ever Thai leader to sincerely apologise for Tak Bai.

When democratic government returned after 2007 elections the PM went on TV saying the religious zealots were themselves to blame, they died because they were observing Ramadan.

My point is that politicians are in no position to lecture the military on anything, let alone on Tak Bai.

Bingo.

The military is corrupt, but never as bad as the national police, who Col Thaksin put in charge of southern security when he came to power. Tak Bai would never have happened in the first place without his destabilisation.

I also think the army officers in charge of the detainee transport should have received punishment by the courts, but that's just not going to happen in the Thai system, where transfer to inactive posts - or public apologies such as Surayud's - are more the norm.

As far as further alienating southern Thai muslims, I don't think it can get much worse.

As for the 'peer party' analysis, spot on. Patronage rules in all factions, red, yellow, green, blue.

[jayboy]

I'm talking about last two coups.

When Prem retired and politicians took over, they discredited themselves in just a couple of years. When Suchinda overthrowed Chatichai "buffet" govt in 1991 no one shed a tear (the protests started only when Suchinda tried to cling to power).

2006 coup has been discussed to death. Thaksin and TRT screwed up the country so badly that the public generally welcomed the coup.

Junta installed Surayud and he was the first ever Thai leader to sincerely apologise for Tak Bai.

When democratic government returned after 2007 elections the PM went on TV saying the religious zealots were themselves to blame, they died because they were observing Ramadan.

My point is that politicians are in no position to lecture the military on anything, let alone on Tak Bai.

But the reality politicians are not lecturing the military on Tak Bai or its other crimes in the South.It's just been swept under the carpet despite Abhisit's early comments that he would not hesitate to tackle the military's crimes.Draw your own conclusions.

Corrupt politicians can always be chucked out in a democracy.Military gangsters can't as we can see in Burma for example.Don't tell me the junta and its puppet government genuinely wished to loose the the reigns of power.They had no choice given the Thai public's hatred of their incompetence and indolence.As we know however they found other ways to continue military influence -which to use your phrase have already been discussed to death.

Thaksin was a disgrace and his remarks on Tak Bai were disgraceful.We can all agree on that.I have already acknowledged Surayud's decent apology although as noted it was never followed up with action against the military criminals involved.

Briefly on your TRT comment, despite your assumption it was axiomatic there is very dubious evidence that the public generally welcomed the coup.Don't bother to quote some half baked ABAC poll.If there was any positive reaction it was mainly because the political log jam was broken.The sheer stupidity and incompetence of the junta soon turned the nation against them despite.And yes economic management was infinitely better under Thaksin than the junta's appointees.

[hammered]

I'm talking about last two coups.

When Prem retired and politicians took over, they discredited themselves in just a couple of years. When Suchinda overthrowed Chatichai "buffet" govt in 1991 no one shed a tear (the protests started only when Suchinda tried to cling to power).

2006 coup has been discussed to death. Thaksin and TRT screwed up the country so badly that the public generally welcomed the coup.

Junta installed Surayud and he was the first ever Thai leader to sincerely apologise for Tak Bai.

When democratic government returned after 2007 elections the PM went on TV saying the religious zealots were themselves to blame, they died because they were observing Ramadan.

My point is that politicians are in no position to lecture the military on anything, let alone on Tak Bai.

But the reality politicians are not lecturing the military on Tak Bai or its other crimes in the South.It's just been swept under the carpet despite Abhisit's early comments that he would not hesitate to tackle the military's crimes.Draw your own conclusions.

Corrupt politicians can always be chucked out in a democracy.Military gangsters can't as we can see in Burma for example.Don't tell me the junta and its puppet government genuinely wished to loose the the reigns of power.They had no choice given the Thai public's hatred of their incompetence and indolence.As we know however they found other ways to continue military influence -which to use your phrase have already been discussed to death.

Thaksin was a disgrace and his remarks on Tak Bai were disgraceful.We can all agree on that.I have already acknowledged Surayud's decent apology although as noted it was never followed up with action against the military criminals involved.

Briefly on your TRT comment, despite your assumption it was axiomatic there is very dubious evidence that the public generally welcomed the coup.Don't bother to quote some half baked ABAC poll.If there was any positive reaction it was mainly because the political log jam was broken.The sheer stupidity and incompetence of the junta soon turned the nation against them despite.And yes economic management was infinitely better under Thaksin than the junta's appointees.

Basically Thailand is screwed or stuck up some blind alley thanks to the inability or refusal of those with power (politicans and others in all kinds of places) to work out a way forward that would benefit the country and its people but might mean they have to compromise away a few things. This is true of those on all sides. This kind of situation cant last forever even if some would like to see it do so. Either a compromise must be reached, a solution forced or increasingly anarchic things take place until a compromise or forced solution then comes about. In the meantime......

[Plus]

But the reality politicians are not lecturing the military on Tak Bai or its other crimes in the South

And don't expect them to. I don't know of any particular group in Thailand that has strong enough moral ground to straighten the military.

There are lots of people who love to critisise them but they haven't achieved anything important to make themselves count.

Abhisit is clean enough to raise the issue, but then he needed army help to build his coalition. He can start talking only when he can stand on his own and feels that he repaid his debt to the generals.

If there was any positive reaction it was mainly because the political log jam was broken

That's good enough to support my point that unless politicians learn how to untie their own shoes they shouldn't lecture the generals.

[harleyclarkey]

Where will it all stop in Thailand? The thugs in power can do as they like, when they like and with whoever they like.

I also am speechless.

[Plus]

The court said that the militiary was acting according to rules and regulations. It's unclear if they were legally immune from any prosecution while performing their duties but chances are they were.

Why is this ruling bad and must be Thaksin is exonerated because he was so popular at the time is beyond me.

Questions like why the only person ever to sincerely apologise for Tak Bai was the evil string pulling general and not a single politician is beyond "renowed" scholar's scope of mental masturbation.

Pravit in his recent Nation opinion acknowledged that essentially some people think that military is worse than Thaksin, and some people think that Thaksin is worse than the military. It will take several evolution cycles for the renowed scholar to realise existence of that other opinion.

There's nothing worse than suffering inflicted by listening to half-baked gurus publicly exposing their ignorance.

[Lite Beer]

Post referring to an article containing inappropriate Monarchy Content has been deleted.

[jayboy]

The court said that the militiary was acting according to rules and regulations. It's unclear if they were legally immune from any prosecution while performing their duties but chances are they were.

Why is this ruling bad and must be Thaksin is exonerated because he was so popular at the time is beyond me.

Questions like why the only person ever to sincerely apologise for Tak Bai was the evil string pulling general and not a single politician is beyond "renowed" scholar's scope of mental masturbation.

Pravit in his recent Nation opinion acknowledged that essentially some people think that military is worse than Thaksin, and some people think that Thaksin is worse than the military. It will take several evolution cycles for the renowed scholar to realise existence of that other opinion.

There's nothing worse than suffering inflicted by listening to half-baked gurus publicly exposing their ignorance.

Very Kafkaesque.We're not allowed to discuss the substance of the subject.We froth and foam backwards and forwards notwithstanding.You call internationally respected Thai scholars "half baked gurus".My view is that the academic experts don't always get it right and half the attraction of this forum is seeing how local knowledge can provide distinctive insights.In an ordered world this could be an interesting debate.

The best lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intensity.

[blaze]

I don't really understand all this talk about Thaksin in the context of this thread. Nor even of the behavior of the military. This is about a court judgement- a rather interesting court judgement, at that. ONe that may seem to suggest that during a state of emergency the powers entrusted to enforce order can behave with impunity providing their behavior is associated with keeping order. Would that suggest that the state apparatus could- for instance- legally abduct the children of a suspected terrorist and torture those children till the parent turns himself in to the authorities? One would hope not- yet the wording of the judgment seems to suggest that the authorities, acting under a state of emergency with the best interests of social order in mind, could not be prosecuted. Or have I missed a part of the ruling that establishes that there are some laws that even the military, during a state of emergency, must conform with?

Edited June 4, 2009 by blaze

[Plus]

Yesterday there was a letter about this in the Nation and editors left a note that the emergency degree part of the judgement needs to be clarified.

academic experts don't always get it right

What about always getting it wrong?

As I said, I can't bring myself to commenting on yet another elite conspiracy theory. I don't want to waste time on yet another charge that some invisible third hand issues orders to Abhisit. That's just <deleted>.

And I'd say fuc_k the scholar who says that the army ordered Songkran crackdown and Anupong was in charge.

[dee123]

READ THIS http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/1245 it will simplify things for those who get confused!

Edited June 8, 2009 by dee123

[Plus]

Any news on the emergency degree?

>>>

How many policemen do you think were at the station when a couple of thousand angry muslims were "demonstrating" outside. I think it's a valid reason for police to shit their pants and call on the army, and that's when everything went downhill.

If there was an emergency degree in place, whatever the soldiers did next is excempt from prosecution.

Overall it was a far bigger political failure, the army MO was probably straight from the rule book - tie the hands, face on the ground. They do the same routine with refugees and farmers, too.

[sriracha john]

Tak Bai decision contested

Relatives of victims to petition Criminal Court

Relatives of people who died in the 2004 Tak Bai crackdown will petition against a Songkhla court ruling which cleared security forces of any wrongdoing in their handling of those held in custody. They will lodge their petition with the Criminal Court on Ratchadaphisek Road in Bangkok today.

Yaena Salaemae, who represents the victims' relatives, said villagers were unhappy with the Songkhla court ruling and decided to lodge a petition to contest the court decision. If the Criminal Court agrees with the victims' relatives that members of the security forces should be held responsible, the prosecution could decide to recommend court action against those involved.

"Villagers respect the court decision but at the same time we feel unhappy and disappointed," she said. "Not all victims died of suffocation [while being transported in cramped conditions to an army camp]. Many were beaten and shot." Mrs Yaena said villagers had testified before the court several times and were disappointed that the court ruled in favour of the authorities.

Rassada Manurassada, a lawyer provided by the Lawyers Council of Thailand to represent the relatives of the victims, said accounts from witnesses and evidence including video footage indicated that officials were to blame for the deaths of the 78 protesters who had been piled into the trucks and were later found dead. "Petitioning to contest the court decision is not in contempt of court," Mr Rassada said.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1931...ision-contested

-- Bangkok Post 2009-06-29