Bma Boost Security Measures In Buildings After Night Club Fire

[samgrowth]

This is what I call Fire Fighting the problems.

[MEGALITHIC]

Don't fully trust me on this but at least it happened and the majority of the people really are concerned about it. Thais have never concerned about anything reported on the media more than today. People will surely be more aware of this, pub crawlers and owners alike. The main shareholder of the Santika though he is one of the "ruling class", he will have to pay the price. NGOs are advising the victims and their families their "suing options" and rights and this has never happened before. May be I am too optimistic on this.

Really, blaming it on every single Thai in the country for being too corrupted and careless is just not very clever.

After all these complaints and dissatisfaction about this place, why not go back to the developed West and live the safety life?

Before anyone can be sued, it has to be shown - usually in a civils court - that someone, or something, was in breach of clearly defined, and stated, HSE codes or regulations. Does such a thing exist in this country? It probably does but, I would suspect, it will be liberally interpreted and the fines that will eventuate from any legal action will take months, or years, to be handed down to those deemed to be in breach. To make matters worse the compensation to the victims will, more than likely, be a pittance.

I don't think anyone on here is saying all Thais are corrupt and careless, I'm certainly not as I know that is clearly incorrect. However, there are certain groups of people in this country - generally those that possess most of the wealth - that are, more often than not, self serving, self centered and plainly bend the rules to suit themselves.

There are some well constructed and very safe buildings in this country. Places like Paragon I would rate as good as anything I've seen in other parts of the world. The thing is though that the majority of international standard buildings normally tend to be only in the areas where tourists go. The fact is that the people most at risk from the lack of any proper safety standards in this country are the Thai's themselves. Go to MBK and have a look around and see if there are large, clearly defined signs that points to the fire escapes (stair wells) on each floor. Are there enough stairwells to cope with the numbers that would be in there on a weekend if a fire broke out? Something to think about.

[vitalia]

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.

It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.

On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

Sorry to sound a bit cynical but after 20 years here, you get to see many of the same things over and over again.

Does anyone remember the Royal Jomtien Resort fire in 1997? Sure there were fire exits but...they were all locked.

How about the Kader Toy Factory fire in 1993? Same thing but this time, 188 workers killed due to exits being locked.

I could go on.

The fact is that the cost of upgrading or in most cases, completely rebuilding venues (adding fire exits) is simply too much for owners to bear. Perhaps new buildings will be required to have proper safety installed but I seriously doubt that established places will be upgraded. Futhermore, once the dust settles, I suspect all will go quiet again and the tragedy will be forgotten, much like the fires I mentioned above. I am also positive that the owners of Santika will not see one minute behind bars.

Safety is simply not a big concern in this country. However, money is.

T.I.T.

[mrgolf]

I really hope they do something about safety but I doubt they will. Ever notice the "SAFETY FIRST" banners hanging by the exposed wires at head level in BKK?

[mrtoad]

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.

It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.

On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

Sorry to sound a bit cynical but after 20 years here, you get to see many of the same things over and over again.

Does anyone remember the Royal Jomtien Resort fire in 1997? Sure there were fire exits but...they were all locked.

How about the Kader Toy Factory fire in 1993? Same thing but this time, 188 workers killed due to exits being locked.

I could go on.

The fact is that the cost of upgrading or in most cases, completely rebuilding venues (adding fire exits) is simply too much for owners to bear. Perhaps new buildings will be required to have proper safety installed but I seriously doubt that established places will be upgraded. Futhermore, once the dust settles, I suspect all will go quiet again and the tragedy will be forgotten, much like the fires I mentioned above. I am also positive that the owners of Santika will not see one minute behind bars.

Safety is simply not a big concern in this country. However, money is.

T.I.T.

I think there are a number of valid points that you have made, and it is easy to be cynical.

The Kader fire was a prime example of negligence by a very influential family (CP), it was not just that the fire exits were locked, but workers were actually told to carry on working as it was only a small fire. Of course it was nothing of the sort. The difference here thouygh, and it shouldn't be, is that the Kader fire factory didn't affect Bangkok Urbanites (middle class/hi-so)or foreigners. This incident has, and it has probably been a bit of a wake up call to those that have contniued to accept the corrupt practices of officials and the negligence of business owbners, whose only desire is profit above anything else. Those that lost loved ones in this fire, will certainly have more influence, and may not be so easily fobbed off.

One musn't forget that Santika had a 40 million baht upgrade last year, but for some reason, none of it was spent on safety. I really hope hope that all of those involved in the operation of Santika are bought to justice. This is a time for the governemnt and the BMA to actually make sure that the point is made, that these rogue and unsafe operations should not be allowed to flounce the law. I hope it happens, but until the investigation and prosecution is concluded, then all we can do is guess. As you say TIT, where anything could happen.

[crocodilexp]

On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Appears is the key word here. Thais are probably the most skilled people in the world for appearing to do something well when they have no clue (or no intention to do it properly).

Take Suvarnabhumi or democracy, for instance...

[Suzy]

How about clamping down on the graft that allowed this situation to arise?

[ucomservices]

Well,

You Folks have enlightened me through your postings about the Corruption Levels in Thailand.

Frankly, I have wrong notions about the country. About it,s peope being straight forward and God-Fearing - but you have introduced me to a new world alltogether.

So, many folks cannot be wrong in their notings, so it has led me to change my thoughts about Thailand.

A similar tragedy happened in India called the UPHAAR Cinema tragedy in which lots perished because of Fire-Exits not being OK.

Justice was imparted to the wrong doers after a very long time for GOOD.

And I thought that Thailand was better Off than India.

Thanks, folks for opening my eyes to the world !!

[Smithson]

Hub of (ineffective) crackdowns?

If they were serious then Lucifer's in Pattaya and Bkk would be closed immediately. Both places have a single narrow entrance and are real deathtraps.

I was going to suggest we come up with a list of unsafe places, but it would be much easier to come up with a list of clubs that have fire exits. Can anyone name a place that has clearly marked fire exits? Or even a place that has more than one entrance?

[rockyysdt]

I sincerely hope something comes out of this.

Unfortunately, judging by past experience and my limited knowledge of this country the following thoughts spring to mind:

1. What have the authorities been doing for the last thirty years? Everyone knows rules are worthless without audits and enforcement.

2. I wonder what the going rate will be for a new raft of bribery?

3. I can't help but think that this new focus on fire safety will peter out in time once the dust settles down.

Once they realise the cost to implement, thay'll probably back down.

I'd say my thoughts are closer to being realistic, rather than cynical.

Edited January 7, 2009 by rockyysdt

[quiksilva]

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.

It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.

On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

You beat me to it. For those that doubt this, I refer you to the Hillsborough Disaster which is a perfect example of tragedies leading to improved safety standards in buildings, in the UK.

[Smithson]

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.

It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.

On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

You beat me to it. For those that doubt this, I refer you to the Hillsborough Disaster which is a perfect example of tragedies leading to improved safety standards in buildings, in the UK.

How long have you been here? There is a long list of fires in Thailand that haven't resulted in major changes. The vast majority of clubs still have only one exit and they will be open tonight. This isn't the UK, safety and prevention are unknown here. You will see more effort put into appeasing spirits than into preventing the next disaster.

When the Phoenix club caught fire last year, lots of ppl on TV saw this much greater disaster happening.

[henryalleman]

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.

It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.

On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

Yes, we had in Volendam - Netherlands, a similar case in .. 2000/01: 14 dead, 180 injured, far over 600 guests, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volendam.

Now, ALL bars, restaurants etc are NOT allowed to have anything burnable inside. Very tight fire prevention. And be sure, government checks it ! 100%. No way to escape.

The same happened on new years evening in an hotel in Antwerp, before strong safety measures where implemented. Even now after almost 15 years not yet all the victims are compensated, some went bankrupt because of there medical bills. And this happened in a so called modern and civilised western country. So don't be too harsh in your comments towards Thailand.

http://www.sp.se/en/index/research/switel/Sidor/default.aspx

[Smithson]

Yes, but Thailand has already had two fires with much higher casualties and is still full of deathtrap buildings.

Unlike the west, this is a fatalistic culture, safety and prevention are non-existing. The roads are ridiculously dangerous as are theme parks like Suan Siam.

[BkkAnimalover]

We are in Thailand so do not expect any radical changes, the new safety rules will follow the Thai Rules and the Thai Way . I listen or read almost every day Harsh critics and comments about the Thai Way and the Thai Style not just for this matter. My point of view is that first of all we are guest so it's not so nice do that , we choose to came year and we are free to go somewhere else , nobody is pointing us a gun to prevent our leave. I love Thailand , Thais and Thai ways too , in a global vision , my personal point of You is that this is best place to stay so I stay here and I'm happy about my choice , I do not understand who live here permanently and almost do not agree or like any thing about this Country. I saw people living here for years spending half of the day to blame Thailand and Thais . Sorry , why You live here if You do not like the life style or the Thai Ways ? I'm not a Thai that complain about foreign criticism I'm a foreigner that do noy understand some foreigners. Probably for this comment I will receive many harsh replay and severe judgment , but this is what I think and I will not change my mind on this point . I respect the others point of You and I hope the others will respect mine.

[markokang]

We are in Thailand so do not expect any radical changes, the new safety rules will follow the Thai Rules and the Thai Way . I listen or read almost every day Harsh critics and comments about the Thai Way and the Thai Style not just for this matter. My point of view is that first of all we are guest so it's not so nice do that , we choose to came year and we are free to go somewhere else , nobody is pointing us a gun to prevent our leave. I love Thailand , Thais and Thai ways too , in a global vision , my personal point of You is that this is best place to stay so I stay here and I'm happy about my choice , I do not understand who live here permanently and almost do not agree or like any thing about this Country. I saw people living here for years spending half of the day to blame Thailand and Thais . Sorry , why You live here if You do not like the life style or the Thai Ways ? I'm not a Thai that complain about foreign criticism I'm a foreigner that do noy understand some foreigners. Probably for this comment I will receive many harsh replay and severe judgment , but this is what I think and I will not change my mind on this point . I respect the others point of You and I hope the others will respect mine.

I think most (not all) people complain about the place they live because it IS: 'The place they live'. For me being here 8 years now I think of it as my home. When I lived in NZ, I criticized the government and other things because it affects MY LIFE. Yes, I love to stay here in Thailand because I love it here, and like having a child you love, you tend to criticize it to make it a better person/place. In this case, the prevention of people dying is quite a serious and VALID thing to criticize. Telling people to "go home" if they don’t like something is nonsense. In this global world, we can all learn from each other, Thai’s can learn about “safety first” and I can learn how to be more “Jai Yen”. I accept my criticisms, not always willingly but most of the people that criticise me are my friends and want me to have a better (and longer) life.

Criticism is not a bad thing as long as its done in the right way. What ‘way’ that is I am not really sure because everyone takes criticism in different ways. But the main point is, I am pretty sure (most) people do it for good reasons.

[Old Man River]

I think most (not all) people complain about the place they live because it IS: 'The place they live'. For me being here 8 years now I think of it as my home. When I lived in NZ, I criticized the government and other things because it affects MY LIFE. Yes, I love to stay here in Thailand because I love it here, and like having a child you love, you tend to criticize it to make it a better person/place. In this case, the prevention of people dying is quite a serious and VALID thing to criticize.

That pretty much sums up how I feel as well.

[Smithson]

I don't think I'm complaining/criticizing or even being cynical. My opinion comes from over a decade of having lived here, safety just isn't a concern. Look at the all the expensive cars on the road, I've never seen one with a baby seat.

[swillowbee]

Seems the farang community is in broad agreement:

1. Bribes will be offered up [again]; of COURSE!, it's what they know to do best;

2. Of course, no one will be "closed immediately" [as the BMA threatens]; blah, blah, blah, hubba, hubba, hubba; and,

3. Nothing will change; change requires introspection, facing the reality of who you are, and accepting accountability for your actions; Thai culture is incapable of any of those; thus, no change is possible.

Seems the group here proposes a pretty defensible analysis for any logical thinker with years observing Thai behavior. For the newbies who might harbor some Pollyanna-ish delusion of meaningful change, you need to come out of your insulated cocoons and dig a bit deeper into the culture in which you've chosen to live.

The antiquated Thai culture shapes Thai values. Thai values shape Thai behavior. And Thai culture is rife with lying, cheating and stealing.

Jeez, just look at the governments seated here election after election after election. Guess what? Representative government works! Thai elected officials are indeed reflections of the greater Thai population. And they will do only what their Thai culture teaches them.

[Jey]

Guys - dont be too hard on Thailand.

Shutting the door after the horse has bolted? Ok, yep, sure. But to be honest, most of OUR western health and safety rules are in place under precisely those circumstances.

It unfortunately takes a terrible tragedy for people to learn from their mistakes, identify the problems and try to do something about it.

On the face of it, Thailand is doing something. Yeah, it may be too little too late, but at least it appears to be a step in the right direction.

Frankly, it's better then doing nothing isnt it?

yes you are right, I agree with you (guys, is does make it sense or not?)

[GomerPyle]

Seems the farang community is in broad agreement:

1. Bribes will be offered up [again]; of COURSE!, it's what they know to do best;

2. Of course, no one will be "closed immediately" [as the BMA threatens]; blah, blah, blah, hubba, hubba, hubba; and,

3. Nothing will change; change requires introspection, facing the reality of who you are, and accepting accountability for your actions; Thai culture is incapable of any of those; thus, no change is possible.

Seems the group here proposes a pretty defensible analysis for any logical thinker with years observing Thai behavior. For the newbies who might harbor some Pollyanna-ish delusion of meaningful change, you need to come out of your insulated cocoons and dig a bit deeper into the culture in which you've chosen to live.

The antiquated Thai culture shapes Thai values. Thai values shape Thai behavior. And Thai culture is rife with lying, cheating and stealing.

Jeez, just look at the governments seated here election after election after election. Guess what? Representative government works! Thai elected officials are indeed reflections of the greater Thai population. And they will do only what their Thai culture teaches them.

Very true, though very sad.

I couldn't have said it better.

And those who think that Abhisit is going to change things in this country, will be as disappointed as those thinking Obama is going to change things in the US.

Nope can't do.

[samgrowth]

Frankly, the way I see it, is that BMA wants a share in the corruption pie which is now mainly pocket by the police, and maybe, to a smaller extend, the admin court.

What's next? The club owner also have to pay the fire department under the table as well (to get a cert of approval every 3 months), and the local council (any cert of approval every 1 month), ..., etc. The list could go endless.

[atlas_shrugged]

Yes, there's a saying:

"Learn from other people's mistakes. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."

-Atlas

True that you have to learn from your mistakes, but the really wise once can learn from the mistakes of others. All of Scandinavia and a lot of Northern Europe learned their lesson in the 1998 disco fire in Goteborg that killed 63. We did not need a fire in each country to tell us something was really wrong, all we had to know is that clubs burn just as well in Denmark as they do in Sweden (or Thailand for that sake). I think Thailand sometimes need to be better at learning from the rest of the world, instead of being "a bit to" nationalistic and self proud. But I truly hope they will learn from this one! Else it will surely happen again!

Jakob

[BkkAnimalover]

We are in Thailand so do not expect any radical changes, the new safety rules will follow the Thai Rules and the Thai Way . I listen or read almost every day Harsh critics and comments about the Thai Way and the Thai Style not just for this matter. My point of view is that first of all we are guest so it's not so nice do that , we choose to came year and we are free to go somewhere else , nobody is pointing us a gun to prevent our leave. I love Thailand , Thais and Thai ways too , in a global vision , my personal point of You is that this is best place to stay so I stay here and I'm happy about my choice , I do not understand who live here permanently and almost do not agree or like any thing about this Country. I saw people living here for years spending half of the day to blame Thailand and Thais . Sorry , why You live here if You do not like the life style or the Thai Ways ? I'm not a Thai that complain about foreign criticism I'm a foreigner that do noy understand some foreigners. Probably for this comment I will receive many harsh replay and severe judgment , but this is what I think and I will not change my mind on this point . I respect the others point of You and I hope the others will respect mine.

I think most (not all) people complain about the place they live because it IS: 'The place they live'. For me being here 8 years now I think of it as my home. When I lived in NZ, I criticized the government and other things because it affects MY LIFE. Yes, I love to stay here in Thailand because I love it here, and like having a child you love, you tend to criticize it to make it a better person/place. In this case, the prevention of people dying is quite a serious and VALID thing to criticize. Telling people to "go home" if they don't like something is nonsense. In this global world, we can all learn from each other, Thai's can learn about "safety first" and I can learn how to be more "Jai Yen". I accept my criticisms, not always willingly but most of the people that criticise me are my friends and want me to have a better (and longer) life.

Criticism is not a bad thing as long as its done in the right way. What 'way' that is I am not really sure because everyone takes criticism in different ways. But the main point is, I am pretty sure (most) people do it for good reasons.

I'm not telling people to "go home" and I do not use words as nonsense to describe foreigner that use to criticize Thai Ways . I say that this is my personal point of view . If i don't like a place I move from there , I want to live in a place "already as I like" I do not want to go in a place where I have to spend half of my time in a not good mood bcoz of the life style of the locals and I don't want to spend the remaining time trying to change their style and their way of think. I agree on any single word when You write " In this global world, we can all learn from each other, Thai's can learn about "safety first" and I can learn how to be more "Jai Yen". I accept my criticisms, not always willingly but most of the people that criticise me are my friends and want me to have a better (and longer) life.

Criticism is not a bad thing as long as its done in the right way. What 'way' that is I am not really sure because everyone takes criticism in different ways. But the main point is, I am pretty sure (most) people do it for good reasons." But You have to understand that This is our angle to see the world , this is what we learn and what we believe is right . Sometimes even in our western country there are different points of view and angles between groups of citizen of the same country that are talking the same idioma and believe in the same Good . After that try to think which kinds of radicals different point of views we could have with people of a different country, different Continent , different race and not enough also different Religion..... For sure there are some areas where what we see as black ...they see as white ! I do not try to teach the colors to someones that see white what I see black and I also do not say that my angle is the right ones , or is better than the other's angle that is wrong. I think that the best to leave in that place ,having an happy life and avoiding wasting time head aces in this is : do not even think if it's right or wrong , it's good or bad , just think that here is like that and when I say "like that" I mean that here almost all the citizen think like that doesn't matter social category , good level or culture or not, financial status or position . When You say Thai Ways You should already understand the answer . You cannot change it to be americans ways or german ways or england or wherever ways as well You cannot change our ways to match the local way . Thai ways is the same angle adopted from all the Thai from the PM to the security guard of Your parking . What I'm trying to say is that it's only a matter of how You want to live , do You want to live happy and in harmony with the place and the locals ? having fun as much You can ? Follow this old Thai dict ..... "When You go in a new province, if You want to live well and serene getting all the things well done easy You must to learn how the locals blink their eyes " You say that You live here 8 years , trust me it's not yet enough time to have good result trying to understand a so different way to think . I live here more than 15 years , I speak Thai better than English and 99% of my friends are Thai ...well sometimes ( very limited ) I still find myself gettin a bad mood and criticize Thai Way . Following this explanation I include in my mail sometingh that I cosider as good Tips to leave here. Never criticize Thai Way ,Thailand and Thais when a Thai is there. He will not say nothingh , but trust me He will deeply hate You , doesn't matter what You are saying , wrong or right , good or bad , You are a welcome guest that is not entiteled to do that. I repeat trust me even if You disagree or You think that it's impossible and take it also as a simple example of what I'm talking about . Here the criticism of someone talking with other is seen as very unpolite, even in the business . Describe The benefit of Your products could drive You to a purchase order , mention and even demonstrate the week point of the competitor will not , mostly you will simply gonna be seen as Impolite. One more eample a Foreign boss loves the employers that spot out and notice his mistake , foeign angle see this as an help to do better , to improve company's performance and sales....A Thai boss even at the highest management level of local branches of well know international company with an oversea bachelor degree .... Trust me again will not love that or better will deeply hate any employer will do that ! His angle do not see this as an help but see this as a think that made him loose his face ..( one of the highest concern for Thais that could drive to really "big" problem. Ask this to any of Your Thai friends and U will get the same words. Sorry for my long explanation , I do not do that pretending to teach anyone , It's simply the explanation of what I think based on 15 years of Thailand Residence

[Navalator]

The best prevention of the firetraps is for people not to patronize them. The second best prevention is the abolition of corruption. Neither one is going to be realized in Thailand.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Navalator

[Africanteacher]

Hello!

I have not been following the progress on the findings about the fire at Santika.

What's the outcome?

Who's been charged? Sentenced?

Thanks