How To Gain Parental Rights As A Father When Not Married

[Mario2008]

How to gain parental rights as a father when not married.

When a baby is born, it is clear who the mother is. Who the father is remains the question. If the mother is married the the law will asume that the husband is the father of the child. One goes to the amphur and registers the child with both parents name on the birth certificate and the baby is considered to be the husbands.No matter who makes the registration.

If the mother is not married, the law makes no such assumption. The fahter must be named on the birth certificate, but that is not enough. Anyone can be named on a birth certificate as the father, without that person knowing him. Therefor if the parents are not married the law wants the father to confirm he is indeed the father. In Thailand that is done by the fahter registering the baby himself.

If someone else registers the baby, the fahter didn't legalise the baby and he is not considered the legal father of the baby.

So remember, if you are not married and want to be the legal father of your child register the baby yourself at the amphur. Registration of a newborn has to be made within 15 days.

What to do if you didn't do the registration of the birth yourself.

If your name is on the birth certificate but you didn't register the child yourself you have the option of going to the amphur together with the mother and child. The registrar at the amphur can then legitimise you as the father if both mother and child consent.(If they don't accompany you the registrar will send them a letter asking to confirm that the person claiming to be the father is indeed the father).

Reports have been made that the registrar refuses legitimisation. What the powers of a registrar are to refuse legitimisation is unclear to me. If the registar refuses legitimistion one can fill a request with the courts to get approval. In this procedure the court will take the child's interest at hearth. Being legalised is normaly considered beneficial for a child.

Note that if your name is on the birth certificate and you marry the mother at a later date the child is automaticaly legitimised by the marriage.

It is always important to also check your own country rules regarding legitimisation with your embassy.

EDIT: 19 Jan. 2010: The fact if you legalise a child by being the one who registers the birth is being questioned. It seems that now this DOES NOT make you the legal father. The court may be the only option.

See: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Article-Chil...dy-t327932.html

[Bastian]

How to gain parental rights as a father when not married.

If the mother is not married, the law makes no such assumption. The fahter must be named on the birth certificate, but that is not enough. Anyone can be named on a birth certificate as the father, without that person knowing him. Therefor if the parents are not married the law wants the father to confirm he is indeed the father. In Thailand that is done by the fahter registering the baby himself.

If someone else registers the baby, the fahter didn't legalise the baby and he is not considered the legal father of the baby.

So remember, if you are not married and want to be the legal father of your child register the baby yourself at the amphur. Registration of a newborn has to be made within 15 days.

lol, I should have known that earlier, would have saved me four months and 15000 baht. The hospital staff was just too eager to help and did the registration for us. Well, in the future we'll know better and choke off any effort they make trying to 'help us' with the paperwork.

[torrenova]

lol, I should have known that earlier, would have saved me four months and 15000 baht. The hospital staff was just too eager to help and did the registration for us. Well, in the future we'll know better and choke off any effort they make trying to 'help us' with the paperwork.

Yes but as I found out in the last two weeks, it is not as clear as all that. Despite the hospital also handling some paperwork for our child, the question of who actually registered the baby can be disputed. Now I am trying to deal with a foreign bureaucracy here but it is apparent that there is a difference between someone registering the baby and the person who hands in the physical forms. The Amphur in my case is Banglamung with subsidiary enquiries in both Buriram and Korat.

The way the English wording is phrased is that it has to be the father who registers the birth, not even the mother. There could be confusion if the mother and father went together but she spoke in Thai as he did not.

Additionally, the whole issue is potentially thrown open if a Thai passport is obtained. This is because the father and the mother have to be present and both sign. By the very fact that the Thai government are accepting the "father's" signature, they are acceding to the fact that he is the father, irrespective of any confusion over who handed in the birth registration. This argument is not proven to the best of my knowledge but would be a critical argument in UK law.

In essence, a father's parental rights are only disputed to the degree where fatherhood is acknowledged. One part of a flawed Thai law states that this only occurs when the father registers the birth. Clearly this is not so as Thai passports require a father to sign and once produced, must be a permanent government record that both the mother and father agreed that he was the father upon application and this application and legal statement was accepted as true by the government, a higher authority than a local Amphur.

During my quest with this it is equally apparent that Amphurs do not follow a set of stringent guidelines from one region to another. Thus, you will receive a different answer at many different Amphurs, just as I have. Passport applications however have to follow far stricter guidelines and one could argue that they are the true test of fatherhood.

Nevertheless, I advise fathers to make sure this is done at the Amphur and for prospective fathers, raise the issue with the hospital and doctor.

My personal thanks goes out to Mario who has made a sterling contribution to digging into this and to Isaan Lawyers who have offered balanced and useful advice on this subject.

[paulyturner]

This is a tremendously useful thread and its enlightened me, however just wish i'd have read it prior to allowing the Bumrungrad hospital staff registering the birth, whilst my names on the certificate etc..i had thought that this was enough, my fiance kept alluding to visiting a judge, now i know she was talking about going to the Amphur as we are currently unmarried.

At least one nugget of comfort is that we will be married, with luck come October/november time, and if i'm reading this correctly then my son is automatically legally recognised at that point, was also unaware of the facts about the thai passport which do of course make total sense.

As my little boy was born in january, Am I still able to go the local Amphur to declare fatherhood? and if so I wonder which one to go to, he should have been born in Saraburi, however he came too early (10hours after i got off the plane!!) and we had to rush them to Bumrungrad, so would it need to be in Bangkok? or to the town where his home is registered?

I love Thailand lol however just as one question is answered there always seems to be another that pops up !

[Mario2008]

You are correct, when you get married you will automatically legitimise your child under Thai law.

Believe it is not possible to legitimise you child before he is 7 years old other wise, but you might be able to do it under your own national law. Inquire at your embassy for this.

[Rikker]

This is news to me, and I'm in the same situation. Legally married abroad, never registered our marriage here to avoid loss of her rights. Daughter born in Thailand, hospital registered the birth for us. Both our signatures were on the passport application form. We've traveled abroad with her several times, but never me without the wife.

My wife has never heard anything about this. Could someone please point me to documents on this topic in the original Thai? I'm lacking some of the necessary legal vocabulary here, and my wife thinks this isn't correct.

Can someone also suggest a real-world scenario where not having gained these parental rights will come back to bite you? My wife believes that in all cases the birth certificate with my name will be sufficient. I don't want to put myself at risk here through inaction. Thanks.

[Mario2008]

This is news to me, and I'm in the same situation. Legally married abroad, never registered our marriage here to avoid loss of her rights. Daughter born in Thailand, hospital registered the birth for us. Both our signatures were on the passport application form. We've traveled abroad with her several times, but never me without the wife.

My wife has never heard anything about this. Could someone please point me to documents on this topic in the original Thai? I'm lacking some of the necessary legal vocabulary here, and my wife thinks this isn't correct.

Can someone also suggest a real-world scenario where not having gained these parental rights will come back to bite you? My wife believes that in all cases the birth certificate with my name will be sufficient. I don't want to put myself at risk here through inaction. Thanks.

Rikker, you were married before the child was born right? Then you are the father by law. The fact that you were married in another country doesn't matter, nor that you didn't register the marriage in Thailand.

As to loss of rights for your wife, there is no such thing. In the past your wife coudn't own land, but that has been abolished.

[Rikker]

That eases my mind -- I was worried that we might get bitten for not registering our marriage here.

As for the loss of rights, I've heard lots of anecdotal evidence both ways. Is there somewhere this is definitively discussed/laid to rest on ThaiVisa? Most recently, my wife's sister (also married to a foreigner, but not registered in Thailand) was told by the condo people she could not purchase a condo if she was legally married to him, because the bank would reject her loan application because of it.

[Mario2008]

The bank won't reject the loan application, but will not take into account the foreign husbands income.

[Rikker]

There seems to be a discrepancy between theory and practice, though. Certainly the condo people have no business reason to spread false or outdated information, since it would deprive them of a condo sale. I don't really doubt that the law is as you say, but I'd like to read primary documents. Are there any you can point me to (in Thai or English)?

[Mario2008]

Better ask your question in the real-estate section, there are the guys with the real knowledge about this.

[Rikker]

Will do. Sorry to steer off topic, but there isn't exactly a lot of discussion going on here. Thanks!

[torrenova]

Someone should really get hold of these hospitals and stop them doing the registering. In the UK, you'd sue them into bankruptcy.

I raised the passport versus birth certificate thing of the father not registering the birth but having to attest that he was the father to get the Thai passport with a lawyer (again) the other day and made the point about the intention of the father and mother at the time of the birth of the baby. I coupled this with my argument that the person taking the documents to register the birth would be acting merely as a courier and that in fact, one could perhaps get a sufficiently trained dog or monkey to carry the documents.

Our conversation (our meeting was for another purpose) circled around the intention and whether there was any intention to deprive an unmarried father of rights which, as Mario states, cannot be regained until the child is of a certain age (age is not specified) or through marriage.

Certainly one could sue the hospital. He made the argument that hospitals should actually be pro active and inform the couple of the law (which he thinks is an ass in this area). The passport argument, given that it must occur at a later date than birth, proves that the mother recognised the named father as the father and as such, there was no reason to assume that it was her intention to deprive the father of rights at birth or at any time between birth and a passport application. He agreed that the passport is the higher document but stated that Thai law was inconsistent and the rights were based on the birth certificate. We touched on DNA but insufficiently to warrant comment.

My feelings are that the law has not been challenged in this area or certainly not with enough capital to follow it through the courts if need be. I suspect that if you have the resources to challenge it all the way then you are way past the price where either you can just have something fixed or have her paid off. The sticking point seems to be the Thai way of ignoring something and the old head in the sand trick and loss of face to admit that there is something fundamentally wrong with their system.

[StaffsShot]

I`m only finding out now that when registering the babys` birth at the amphur the father must be named, unlike UK where it can be left blank.

My girlfriend gave birth in January to our son and as I couldn`t be there her Uncle is named as the father. i`ve met him and his family several times and am amazed he can be named as the father, just for the purpose of paperworks. He lives in Chonburi, my girlfriend in Korat.

Is it true I only needed to send a copy of my passport to her to register me as the father ?

She told me the names can be changed later, when I return on my next trip. Is this correct ?

[Mario2008]

I`m only finding out now that when registering the babys` birth at the amphur the father must be named, unlike UK where it can be left blank.

My girlfriend gave birth in January to our son and as I couldn`t be there her Uncle is named as the father. i`ve met him and his family several times and am amazed he can be named as the father, just for the purpose of paperworks. He lives in Chonburi, my girlfriend in Korat.

Is it true I only needed to send a copy of my passport to her to register me as the father ?

She told me the names can be changed later, when I return on my next trip. Is this correct ?

Correct, any male can be named as the father on the BC. Your girlfirend should have named you on the BC, that she didn't will make things much more complicated.

You didn't recognized the child as yours (legalise it) and now you are in trouble getting this rectified. On the Thai side you ight be able to get it recitified if you marry the mother or when the child turns about 7 years old and can testify that you are his father. I would recommend consulting a lwayer, as you are not named on the BC. That might complicate things. I suggest contacting forum sponsor isaan lawyers, you find them at the top of this page.

Also for registering the child as yours with your own country you might be in trouble, as you are not named on the BC. Contact your embassy about what to do.

[Mario2008]

My feelings are that the law has not been challenged in this area or certainly not with enough capital to follow it through the courts if need be. I suspect that if you have the resources to challenge it all the way then you are way past the price where either you can just have something fixed or have her paid off. The sticking point seems to be the Thai way of ignoring something and the old head in the sand trick and loss of face to admit that there is something fundamentally wrong with their system.

The treaty on the rights of the child give judges a great deal of power to handle in the interest of the child. In a European court you would have no problems challenging the law. But I can't tell you how that will be under Thai law and how willing a Thai judge will be to ignore Thai law and rule under international law instead.

What can be said is that Thai judges take the interest of juvinels as their prime concern.

[OxfordWill]

does this mean that if you have a child but do not with to claim to be the father, nobody can do anything about it if you dont communicate with the amphur?

[Mario2008]

does this mean that if you have a child but do not with to claim to be the father, nobody can do anything about it if you dont communicate with the amphur?

If you have a child but are not married, you have to register the child yourself at the amphur. If not, you are not considered the legal father of the child.

Other ways of legitimising the child are getting married with the mother or by aprovel of both mother and child. For that the child has to be able to testify you are the fahter. Amphurs often require the child to be 7 years old.

If you do not claim to be the father, the mother and child can still initiate a paternity suit and have a judge determine you are the father and should pay child support.

[StaffsShot]

I`m only finding out now that when registering the babys` birth at the amphur the father must be named, unlike UK where it can be left blank.

My girlfriend gave birth in January to our son and as I couldn`t be there her Uncle is named as the father. i`ve met him and his family several times and am amazed he can be named as the father, just for the purpose of paperworks. He lives in Chonburi, my girlfriend in Korat.

Is it true I only needed to send a copy of my passport to her to register me as the father ?

She told me the names can be changed later, when I return on my next trip. Is this correct ?

Correct, any male can be named as the father on the BC. Your girlfirend should have named you on the BC, that she didn't will make things much more complicated.

You didn't recognized the child as yours (legalise it) and now you are in trouble getting this rectified. On the Thai side you ight be able to get it recitified if you marry the mother or when the child turns about 7 years old and can testify that you are his father. I would recommend consulting a lwayer, as you are not named on the BC. That might complicate things. I suggest contacting forum sponsor isaan lawyers, you find them at the top of this page.

Also for registering the child as yours with your own country you might be in trouble, as you are not named on the BC. Contact your embassy about what to do.

Thanks mario 2008, i thought as much that it will not be easy to change names on the bc.

Being on different continents when baby is born / registered is not ideal.

Thanks for your help and advice, will follow it through

[Mario2008]

Thanks mario 2008, i thought as much that it will not be easy to change names on the bc.

Being on different continents when baby is born / registered is not ideal.

Thanks for your help and advice, will follow it through

Yes, consult a good lawyer.

The following article will be of interest of you: section 1554 gives you a 3 month window to appeal against the uncle being named the father.

http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaici...l%20code%20.pdf

on page 16.

[OxfordWill]

I think this is one area of law which will change quickly and suddenly in the future rather than slowly over time, but im not expert. It just seems a bit behind the progression.

[earthpig]

How to gain parental rights as a father when not married.

When a baby is born, it is clear who the mother is. Who the father is remains the question. If the mother is married the the law will asume that the husband is the father of the child. One goes to the amphur and registers the child with both parents name on the birth certificate and the baby is considered to be the husbands.No matter who makes the registration.

If the mother is not married, the law makes no such assumption. The fahter must be named on the birth certificate, but that is not enough. Anyone can be named on a birth certificate as the father, without that person knowing him. Therefor if the parents are not married the law wants the father to confirm he is indeed the father. In Thailand that is done by the fahter registering the baby himself.

If someone else registers the baby, the fahter didn't legalise the baby and he is not considered the legal father of the baby.

So remember, if you are not married and want to be the legal father of your child register the baby yourself at the amphur. Registration of a newborn has to be made within 15 days.

What to do if you didn't do the registration of the birth yourself.

If your name is on the birth certificate but you didn't register the child yourself you have the option of going to the amphur together with the mother and child. The registrar at the amphur can then legitimise you as the father if both mother and child consent.(If they don't accompany you the registrar will send them a letter asking to confirm that the person claiming to be the father is indeed the father).

Reports have been made that the registrar refuses legitimisation. What the powers of a registrar are to refuse legitimisation is unclear to me. If the registar refuses legitimistion one can fill a request with the courts to get approval. In this procedure the court will take the child's interest at hearth. Being legalised is normaly considered beneficial for a child.

Note that if your name is on the birth certificate and you marry the mother at a later date the child is automaticaly legitimised by the marriage.

It is always important to also check your own country rules regarding legitimisation with your embassy.

I have a two year old illegitimate child with my thai gf and wish to get 100% custody now that we wish to split. She is agreeable. The question is how to do this legally in a way that will allow foreign travel and is not subject to the mother changing her mind.

At present i have legally 0% custody as I never registered the child at the amphur, having assumed that my name on the birth certificate was sufficient. But i presume that registering the child is still not enough, as that act would not give me 100% custody.

The child has a USA passport, and no Thai passport. The child was born in Thailand and so has dual citizenship.

My concern is that if I attempt to travel with the child I may have trouble entering Hague convention countries, despite the fact that the child does have my last name on both the birth certificate and the USA passport. Moreover, if the child's mother changes her mind in the future, she could block issuance of a renewal american passport (renewals every 5 years required her signature as well as mine.)

So is there a formal way for a mother to relinquish her 100% custody to me? Can it be done contractually, or does it have the case have to be heard by a court? Is it necessary to first reregister the child in my name at the amphur, if in fact they will allow that?

Thanks.

[Mario2008]

You would want to be recognised as the legal father first. Given the age of your child, you will need to go petition the court for that. But if the mother agrees that shouldn't be a problem. At the same time you could take care of the costudy issue.

I suggest you contact our forum sponsor Isaan Lawyers, who have great expertise in family law and can ell you everything about the steps tht need to be taken and how much it is going to cost.

[earthpig]

You would want to be recognised as the legal father first. Given the age of your child, you will need to go petition the court for that. But if the mother agrees that shouldn't be a problem. At the same time you could take care of the costudy issue.

I suggest you contact our forum sponsor Isaan Lawyers, who have great expertise in family law and can ell you everything about the steps tht need to be taken and how much it is going to cost.

many thanks for your quick response!

[torrenova]

You would want to be recognised as the legal father first. Given the age of your child, you will need to go petition the court for that. But if the mother agrees that shouldn't be a problem. At the same time you could take care of the costudy issue.

I suggest you contact our forum sponsor Isaan Lawyers, who have great expertise in family law and can ell you everything about the steps tht need to be taken and how much it is going to cost.

As the child is only 2 years old in this last example, does that not mean that court is out of the question until the approximate 7 years old as the child could not testify that the guy in question was trhe father ? I refer to your previous posts in this thread referencing court and the age of 7.

Or, is there another dispensation for the mother to petition the court and appoint an agreeable male as the legitimate father ?

Seems we are at odds here somewhat.

[Mario2008]

You would want to be recognised as the legal father first. Given the age of your child, you will need to go petition the court for that. But if the mother agrees that shouldn't be a problem. At the same time you could take care of the costudy issue.

I suggest you contact our forum sponsor Isaan Lawyers, who have great expertise in family law and can ell you everything about the steps tht need to be taken and how much it is going to cost.

As the child is only 2 years old in this last example, does that not mean that court is out of the question until the approximate 7 years old as the child could not testify that the guy in question was trhe father ? I refer to your previous posts in this thread referencing court and the age of 7.

Or, is there another dispensation for the mother to petition the court and appoint an agreeable male as the legitimate father ?

Seems we are at odds here somewhat.

I think my post you are referring to was some what incomplete, sorry for that.

Thai law gives 3 ways of legitimising a child, when you didn't do it by registering the child yourself.

(section 1547)

1. by subsequent marriage to the mother

2. by going to the amphur with mother and child and declare you are the father. (for this the child has to be at least 7 years old and both the mother and child will need to cooperate)

3. By petitioning the court, for which mother and child don't have to cooperate.

(section 15480

See http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaici...l%20code%20.pdf on page 16.

[t.s]

after copious searching of this and other sites, as well as reading the code over several times, i still cannot find anywhere that speaks of the either of 15 day limit on the fathers registration of legitimisation or the stipulation that the child must be 7 years old.

where are these discussed? i have been through the following translation of the act and can determine no single instance supporting these time time constraints with the permission of the mother.

[Mario2008]

The 15 day registration limit is the time in which the child has to be registered at the amphur. it is not part of the family law section, but another section of law. You can find it on the website of the department of provicial administration. http://www.dopa.go.th/English/servi/birth.htm

Note that child can only be registered once, so if the unmarried father didn't do the registration himself he can't go within 15 days to the amphur by himself and simply state he is the father to legalise the child to fix it.

The law doesn't give an age for the child, it merely states that the child has to make a decleration as well. Most amphurs seem to require that the child is at least 7 years to be able to make such a statement. The website of the department of provicial administration also doesn't give an age: http://www.dopa.go.th/English/servi/myson.htm

[torrenova]

I'm thinking here that there is so serious an issue and such a large window of virtually no opportunity for fathers (until 7 year old) that this must have been challenged in the courts. Any such challenge would presumably make case law but I don't know whether case law has any standing in Thai courts.

Take a situation where the mother and father are not in agreement and the child is much younger than 7 years old. In such a case, it must sometimes be the case that the father cannot petition the court for one reason or another, most likely finance, connections and location I would assume. In such a situation and given that the regulations are so obviously poorly drafted and the consequences not thought out, that it must surely have been successfully challenged in the courts. That decision would usually become the authority on the subject.

Does anyone know about any legal challenges to this ?

[patrickq]

Interesting topic, can you clarify something ... if the birth registration is submitted by the hospital, with both parents named, and collected from the registrar's office by the father (with passport/signature supplied for doing so) does this mean he is, or isn't, legally recognised?

Thanks.