kat Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Excellent post, John, and I think your advice is sound, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Hmmm, interesting response. Nowhere did I see myself suggesting that my experiences were more valid than others. I think I was trying to point out that different experiences can be had. And that occasionally, it seems to me, that in one person proposing one set of experiences, far too often the fact that others do not have those same experiences somehow seems to make that person's experiences called in to question or invalid. girlx is certainly right to say these are her experiences but her then dig at both Boo and myself regarding our husbands just goes to show to me that it seems that somehow she seems to think we are either exaggerating, making things up out of whole cloth or are somehow invalid because our experiences of Thai men don't mimic her own. As for being outside the dating scene, well that certainly is true, but character traits are just that, and shouldn't really matter that much whether the man is married, dating, or angling for a roll in the hay. The character traits that both kat and girlx outlined certainly exist and perhaps they are prevalent in the men out there dating, but my experience has been that it is not as widespread as perhaps either poster believes or else these men "hide their true selves" from me, someone they want nothing from and only show their "true selves" to single farang women? A scenario I find rather hard to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 far too often the fact that others do not have those same experiences somehow seems to make that person's experiences called in to question or invalid. bingo, I don't doubt that these have been girlx's expereinces, hel_l she has even strarted threads in here about her ex-bf's so we know what she has expereinced but dont then make me out to be a liar when I relate my positive expereinces to disagree with the blanket statement that "all thai men are this that or the other". I refuse to sit here & post nothing when someone slates the very people I am connected to through marriage & freindship. I feel grateful that the thai men I know, and I know quite a few from over the years who have all been good freinds to me, That isn't to say that some bad apples haven't tried to wheedle their way in but I don't accept people like that in my life. I beleive, as has been mentioned before, you get out of life what you put in & you get treated in the way you allow yourself to be treated, if something is not right, then do something to fix it. That is my opinion & my expereinces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) " ... but my experience has been that it is not as widespread as perhaps either poster believes or else these men "hide their true selves" from me, someone they want nothing from and only show their "true selves" to single farang women? A scenario I find rather hard to believe." No, my point is that how can you judge girlx or myself for exagerrating when you are not dating or interacting with Thai men in a dating scenario? I think Boo has done so more and probably has a more pertinent example as a relatively recent single woman in Thailand. Her experience was different; that's fair enough. However, even your different experience as a married woman doesn't lessen the very real cultural experiences of Thai women in male-dominated Thai culture. *I posted this before Boo's post above. Edited February 19, 2009 by kat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Once again, attacked for having a differing opinion. I do not date thai men, no, its true. But are you then suggesting that all my interactions with them as human beings are somehow invalid because they aren't trying to get into my pants? That values like honesty and courtesy are somehow only valid if dating? Because if that really is what you are saying then I will bow out of this conversation since clearly I do not have a clue what Thai men are "really like". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john b good Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 many thai women are engaged in the flesh trade because they want to be or because they were pimped out by their families. And lets not go down the "thai men deserting their wife & kids" route cause you can bet real money on the majority of farang men in thailand in relationships with thai women & having kids with them have probably run off & left their ex wife & kids at home in their own country. Maybe some support them but they still chose to go off to another country didn't they? So lets not start that route. There are plenty of single thai mums who dont' work in bars.And the thai women, would that be the millions of them in happy relationships with thai men or the ones who now work in the bar industry & who specifically target farang customers? It might have escaped your notice but it is commonly held by the (farang men) posting on thaivisa bgs will have a thai bf tucked away somewhere, funny that isn't it? I am not gonna get into some lengthy debate with you Boo (that would see me banned wouldn't it) but I think that your view of "on the majority of farang men in thailand in relationships with thai women & having kids with them have probably run off & left their ex wife & kids at home in their own country" is a tad cynical. I will not say any more (other than that I am a paid up member of the ex husbands / fathers club. No debts, not one satang, in any country on the planet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john b good Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Excellent post, John, and I think your advice is sound, too. Thank you kat. I have been in Thailand for twenty years and I think that I have picked up a little about the way things are here in that time. You have a good day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Once again, attacked for having a differing opinion. I do not date thai men, no, its true. But are you then suggesting that all my interactions with them as human beings are somehow invalid because they aren't trying to get into my pants?That values like honesty and courtesy are somehow only valid if dating? Because if that really is what you are saying then I will bow out of this conversation since clearly I do not have a clue what Thai men are "really like". Wow. Very interesting is your definition of "attacked". Where exactly am I attacking you, and why are you putting words in my mouth? It is obvious that you are not going to have experiences with Thai men as a single woman if you are not dating them! Are you going to experience the dishonesty of dating a married man who swears to high heaven that he is single, among other things? If you are going to take this thread in that direction simply because I state opionons that you do not like, you don't have to leave - why don't you just make it easier and ban me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 lets not all get into the dramatics of "oh I'll be banned" please. Both sbk & I are posting our opinion as you are posting yours. If someone does something worthy of moderation action then one of the others mods will take over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 other than that I am a paid up member of the ex husbands / fathers club. No debts, not one satang, in any country on the planet Not sure your point here but well done for meeting your responsibilities. And fyi, I only raised the point about absentee farang fathers now living in los to belabour the point (you raised about thai men abandoning their wives & kids) that it isn't a purely thai male trait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) OK, sorry ladies. Continuing: Not only lying about being married, but lying about his children or ever being married, while introducing me to his family (with his supposed non-existent son right there) and legion of male friends while he indeed was married? It is an undisputed fact that many if not most Thai men believe that mia nois and polygamist relationships are their right, and lying about it is no problem if the truth will be an obstruction in getting what they want. *edit: I just lost my edit for some reason, so I will try again. I have been on this forum for years, and I have a great deal of affection for both Boo and SBK, even though our viewpoints are radically different at times. SBK, I am not saying your experience is less than anything. How could I - you have more than 20 years of experience in Thailand. You are an intelligent woman. I am just pointing out the obvious that you have much less experience there as a single woman interacting with a variety of single Thai men within that context. SBK is a very sensitive soul, but I understand. ** I also know why I lost my first edit, it is because of one of these blinkered Thai advertisements - can they get any more intrustive right on the frickin' post now. Edited February 19, 2009 by kat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Not only lying about being married, but lying about his children or ever being married, while introducing me to his family (with his supposed non-existent son right there) and legion of male friends while he indeed was married? My sister, a single women with a 10 year old child had this happen to her (not the son bit) not a couple of months ago, right here in London. It is an undisputed fact that many if not most Thai men This is what I have a problem with when you & girlx are trying to make your point..., I can accept the many part of the above quote but then you just have to go in & put the "if not most" bit when it is patently clear to anyone with a brain cell (and I know you have those in spades kat) that not most thai men hold this beleif or think it is even acceptable to cheat on their spouces. It's actually an old tradition & one that is slowly fading away. That some men chose to still follow the practice doesn't make it fact that most = majority Thai men practice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 True story, Hubby has a group of about 5 close thai male friend, they have all know each other since childhood. All are either married or divorced (another interesting fact, the 2 who are divorced were left holding the kids whilst thai wifey went off to find her fame & fortune! in the big city). None have mia nois (and I would know as they discuss this stuff if you read on...) They also have another, older by 10 years freind, who is a cousin of one of the guys, he has a mia noi, he works in a mid level givernment job & is the subject of much mirth & ridicule from the others for being so daft as to want two wives. That to me is the general reaction of most normal thai men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) Really? Right there in London? I have never in all of my life been introduced to a man's parents, extended family and 10-year-old child (supposedly non-existent) as his girlfriend while his actual wife is sitting around somewhere in another city. And yes, mia nois are an ancient tradition in decline that modern Thai women are trying to scrap into the dustbin, but the brothel culture is still very much alive and just as ancient. In fact, part of the reason why mia nois are on the decline is because it is much easier to visit high-end brothels in these times. Depending on the circumstances, whether HIV/Aids is on the rise or the economy is on the decline, mia nois will be more or less popular with the gents. Let's not forget reality: It was pronounced as recently as 2004 in Parliment that mia nois and brothels were a Thai male's right, believed by 160 out of 40 members. *bit of a lag time. I was responding to post no. 102. Edited February 19, 2009 by kat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Let's not forget reality: It was pronounced as recently as 2004 in Parliment that mia nois and brothels were a Thai male's right, believed by 160 out of 40 members. But does that then mean that majority of thai men will take it up? it is a mans right to waglle his willy in the waning moon in a town in scotland but it doesn't mean the men will do it (ok I made the willy waggling bit up but the point is, there are equally stupid ruels/laws abound in the world, doesn't mean they will be taken up by all either) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 True story,Hubby has a group of about 5 close thai male friend, they have all know each other since childhood. All are either married or divorced (another interesting fact, the 2 who are divorced were left holding the kids whilst thai wifey went off to find her fame & fortune! in the big city). None have mia nois (and I would know as they discuss this stuff if you read on...) They also have another, older by 10 years freind, who is a cousin of one of the guys, he has a mia noi, he works in a mid level givernment job & is the subject of much mirth & ridicule from the others for being so daft as to want two wives. That to me is the general reaction of most normal thai men. Yeah, I could believe this also, amongst the younger, changing set. My guy was in his mid-thirties, though. But, as you pointed out, it is changing. I can agree that there are many "normal" Thai men that would have that reaction. But, what is "normal" to you and me? Your husband and his friends? Yeah, they sound normal to me, but are they normal to the mainstream Thai male population? Many would say not. But, I accept that there are also those who are changing, and change is naturally at time of transition, so we shall see. There are changes occurring in Thai society, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I do not appreciate your accusations kat. Extremely uncalled for. And since I am such a sensitive soul unwilling or unable to see real Thailand for what it is, I bow out of this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Let's not forget reality: It was pronounced as recently as 2004 in Parliment that mia nois and brothels were a Thai male's right, believed by 160 out of 40 members. it is a mans right to waglle his willy in the waning moon in a town in scotland but it doesn't mean the men will do it (ok I made the willy waggling bit up but the point is geez, I almost thought you were serious there for a minute. I had a couple of Scots waggle something at from under their kilts once in a bar in New York, but it was just enough to know that they don't wear underwear under there. Anyway, they got kicked out so that's another story, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I do not appreciate your accusations kat. Extremely uncalled for. And since I am such a sensitive soul unwilling or unable to see real Thailand for what it is, I bow out of this conversation. Do you mind pointing out these accusations and attacks SBK? At least I will know what I'm doing that is so completely out of the way of discussion. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 If you are going to take this thread in that direction simply because I state opionons that you do not like, you don't have to leave - why don't you just make it easier and ban me? Very unfair and, as you well know, untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kat Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 OK, I'm sorry about that. I think you are right there and I'm not just saying that because you are a mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john b good Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 lets not all get into the dramatics of "oh I'll be banned" please.Both sbk & I are posting our opinion as you are posting yours. If someone does something worthy of moderation action then one of the others mods will take over. But you do have to admit Boo that you have the big guillotine at your finger tips and it's been an option that has often been exercised in the past (by many who's views do not concur) What I am happy to see here is that there is at least one female who is prepared to challenge the opinions of some other women. I think that is very healthy. And can be nothing other than a good thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 But you do have to admit Boo that you have the big guillotine at your finger tips and it's been an option that has often been exercised in the past (by many who's views do not concur) I have the moderator options yes but as to the rest of it, the only time I would need to step in as a moderator in a thread I had contributed is when someone is being deliberately offensive or breaks one of the rules, not due to diagreeing with my opinion & I will appriciate an apology for that suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john b good Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 other than that I am a paid up member of the ex husbands / fathers club. No debts, not one satang, in any country on the planet Not sure your point here but well done for meeting your responsibilities. And fyi, I only raised the point about absentee farang fathers now living in los to belabour the point (you raised about thai men abandoning their wives & kids) that it isn't a purely thai male trait I never suggested that it is "isn't a purely thai male trait" but maybe your too far away from where it is happening. The facts are that Thai men are slow in meeting their responsibilities in respect of girls they have knocked up (and the resultant children) The facts stand and no matter what you might say, or what you might think, nothing is gonna alter that fact. If you do not accept this then you must be living in a different Thailand than the one in which I have lived for some 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girlx Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 (edited) girlx is certainly right to say these are her experiences but her then dig at both Boo and myself regarding our husbands just goes to show to me that it seems that somehow she seems to think we are either exaggerating, making things up out of whole cloth or are somehow invalid because our experiences of Thai men don't mimic her own. i get tired of you guys telling me i am wrong and that i only hang out with losers and that my opinion is invalid because it is different from yours etc... my statements are generalizations and i always put in the disclaimer that there are exceptions (NO all thai men are this or that, boo), which obviously you guys seem to have found and some i have found as well, but that does not negate the majority of my experiences over the past decade! so yeah, i think you deserve an occasional dig for your hypocrisy in writing off my posts and thinking yours are more valid. neither of you have been a solo farang female here as long as i have, i don't think, nor have you been in the dating scene recently. That some men chose to still follow the practice doesn't make it fact that most = majority Thai men practice it. the vast majority of thai men i have met, in all different areas of and social classes in thailand, are not faithful to their partners, whether their partners realize it or not. i know this as a single female because they often try to pick me up. Edited February 19, 2009 by girlx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john b good Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 But you do have to admit Boo that you have the big guillotine at your finger tips and it's been an option that has often been exercised in the past (by many who's views do not concur) I have the moderator options yes but as to the rest of it, the only time I would need to step in as a moderator in a thread I had contributed is when someone is being deliberately offensive or breaks one of the rules, not due to diagreeing with my opinion & I will appriciate an apology for that suggestion. Thank you for that Boo. But, as you are well aware I have been a contributor/member of TV for almost five years and I have seen it all. Maybe not you but some are armed with and have used the axe without mercy. If that is not an apology (i.e. acceptable) please advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 i have met, there you go, wasn't so hard was it? The men you meet are no good, not all thai men are no good so yeah, i think you deserve an occasional dig for your hypocrisy in writing off my posts and thinking yours are more valid. neither of you have been a solo farang female here as long as i have, i don't think, nor have you been in the dating scene recently. What hypocracy? I have never said my expereinces are more valid than yours either but you seem to like to harp on about how long you have been single in thailand like it makes you the world expert or something!!! All it means is you have had a bad time meeting men here. But I have a different experince to you & don't see why I should sit back why you, yet again, slate thai men for that that & the other. If you are going to post your expereinces then I am going to post my experinces, learn to deal with it without getting nasty & snide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyHeather Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I must be reading a different thread since I did not see boo or sbk tell girlx that her experiences were invalid. I read that we all have different experiences here. Which obviously has to be true. The life you lead, the friends you make and the experiences you have are all predicated on the basic person you are and the choices you make. Sure, there is bad luck, we've all had it. And bad luck isn't necessarily caused by anything other than bad luck. But if your experiences are all one thing or the other or recur on a regular basis then you have to take a look at yourself and ask yourself why the same things keep happening over and over again. Is it possible that all single Thai men in Thailand are this bad? I mean, really? And as for married men, is it possible that they all cheat? Really? I feel that broad based generalizations do not work if you are then going to base it on your experiences. Either its what you've experienced (which is quite specific to you and your life) or its a broad based generalization set upon the experiences of many. But to try to make it true both ways does not work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Thank you John, I try very hard to seperate myself from my mod duties when in discussions like this & don't think I have ever suspended a poster for not agreeing with my opinion, I think the fact that I have never suspended Kat or Girlx, whom I frequently disagree, is testament to that joke. I have though, on occasion had to step in as a mod when someone with whom I disagreed on the same thread, started flaming or being deliberately disruptive but that is a clear difference imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc2 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 my statements are generalizations and i always put in the disclaimer that there are exceptions (NO all thai men are this or that, boo), that was crystal clear from the beginning, at least to me. some truely bizzare reactions on this thread thats for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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