Financial Crisis

[Naam]

If the UK and US were to nationalise their respective banks, wouldn't that in effect mean the nationalization of the Fed?

Regards.

dont realy understand your point? what has the UK got to do with the US federal reserve?

Tony B[ootlicker] Liar has reversed history and made the UK an american colony. Brown is keeping up the good job

[samuibeachcomber]

If the UK and US were to nationalise their respective banks, wouldn't that in effect mean the nationalization of the Fed?

Regards.

dont realy understand your point? what has the UK got to do with the US federal reserve?

Tony B[ootlicker] Liar has reversed history and made the UK an american colony. Brown is keeping up the good job

but he did well out of it...........how many homes does he now own?plus getting son into prestigious university in USA,plus his mid-east envoy job.Reckon he was bought by the white house,and paid accordingly.

[12DrinkMore]

Well, really, here we are in the midst of the biggest global financial crisis since 1930 (and I wonder when the previous biggest was, or was 1930 the biggest ever? Until now?) and our illustrious and hardworking leaders have the following timetable

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/po...en-1658970.html

TIMETABLE

Today's events

Gordon Brown and President Barack Obama hold talks in 10 Downing Street, followed by 10am joint press conference.

4pm President Obama meets Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, China's President Hu Jintao and the Queen.

6pm G20 leaders meet for a drinks reception hosted by the Queen at Buckingham Palace.

8.30pm G20 leaders convene for dinner, which is to be held in the State Dining Room at 10 Downing Street and will be hosted by Gordon Brown.

Tomorrow

7.30-8.25am Leaders arrive at ExCel.

8.30am Leaders and finance ministers have separate working breakfasts.

10am Leaders' "family photograph".

10.20am– 1pm Opening session.

1- 2.30pm Leaders and finance ministers have separate working lunches.

2.30-3.30pm Afternoon session.

3.30-4pm Closing press conference.

Yeah, well my hopes are certainly not set on a solution being "worked out" over the "working breakfast and lunch" parties. And the whole effort is all over in less than eight hours or so?

WELL DONE, our true and trusted elected and non elected leaders of the world, and THANK YOU for spending so much time together. "We can sort it out"

Why did you bother coming? The food in the UK is hardly appetising and Brown is not the most inspiring human on the planet.

Oh well, let's get back to the depressing depression.

Edited April 1, 2009 by 12DrinkMore

[AlexLah]

Nooooooooooooooooooo, 12.

These people are so smart, they only need a few nods and winks and mumbling to understand each other.

Very effective indeed!

Did you know the final end speech was already written before this theater even started?

There goes another few Million of taxpayers money, ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Hopefully the Police have some serious rioting to do solve tomorrow, at least then someone worked for it.

Edited April 1, 2009 by AlexLah

[samuibeachcomber]

the demos already started,broke into the offices of RBS.although many are "rent a crowd"the general consensus from emails from the general public is "good on them".I think the UK public are so fed up they dont care who does the demonstrating or what they do.......................someones got to do it.

[Jake1]

Well, really, here we are in the midst of the biggest global financial crisis since 1930 (and I wonder when the previous biggest was, or was 1930 the biggest ever? Until now?) and our illustrious and hardworking leaders have the following timetable

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/po...en-1658970.html

TIMETABLE

Today's events

Gordon Brown and President Barack Obama hold talks in 10 Downing Street, followed by 10am joint press conference.

4pm President Obama meets Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, China's President Hu Jintao and the Queen.

6pm G20 leaders meet for a drinks reception hosted by the Queen at Buckingham Palace.

8.30pm G20 leaders convene for dinner, which is to be held in the State Dining Room at 10 Downing Street and will be hosted by Gordon Brown.

Tomorrow

7.30-8.25am Leaders arrive at ExCel.

8.30am Leaders and finance ministers have separate working breakfasts.

10am Leaders' "family photograph".

10.20am– 1pm Opening session.

1- 2.30pm Leaders and finance ministers have separate working lunches.

2.30-3.30pm Afternoon session.

3.30-4pm Closing press conference.

Yeah, well my hopes are certainly not set on a solution being "worked out" over the "working breakfast and lunch" parties. And the whole effort is all over in less than eight hours or so?

WELL DONE, our true and trusted elected and non elected leaders of the world, and THANK YOU for spending so much time together. "We can sort it out"

Why did you bother coming? The food in the UK is hardly appetising and Brown is not the most inspiring human on the planet.

Oh well, let's get back to the depressing depression.

All they need is a few hours. The major Oil producers can come out and say they will only accept Gold for their Oil, Gold gets bid up high enough as to where it can cover all debts, and paper is shown to be the trash that it really is.

Problem solved, crisis ended, All currency now competes with Gold freely.

[stumonster]

Good article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

extremely good article lannarebirth - thank you

and to those calling us doom and gloom merchants - put this in the optimistic pipe and smoke it

UN chief Ban Ki-moon has warned that failing to act to halt the global economic crisis could lead to widespread social unrest and failed states

from an article in the Guardian

[AlexLah]

Come on guy's, share some positive stuff.

No worry, it'l soon all be over...................

http://www.chrismartenson.com/blog/social-...ral-years/15944

[sabaijai]

After reading these articles, I've decided to dig a fish pond and plant some vegetables

[lannarebirth]

After reading these articles, I've decided to dig a fish pond and plant some vegetables

Me too. But there's good news too, at least for stocks. The fact that these companies will be given virtual carte blanche to falsify earnings is tremendously bullish. Then they can sell their "re-valued" assets to the government and its happy days once more..

[midas]

Good article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

Lannar this is a good article and it reminded me about the link you provided in Post #1281.

" Accounting Brothel Opens Doors for Banker Fiesta: ". Do you happen to know

if the Financial Accounting Standards Board proposal to ignore severe long-term price declines

has been passed?

Is this has gone through or does goes through - how can this possibly be reconciled with what

world leaders are saying at the G 20 today about tougher monetary regulations?

[midas]

After reading these articles, I've decided to dig a fish pond and plant some vegetables

Me too. But there's good news too, at least for stocks. The fact that these companies will be given virtual carte blanche to falsify earnings is tremendously bullish. Then they can sell their "re-valued" assets to the government and its happy days once more..

So how many years do think it will take for the house of cards to fall again ?

[flying]

After reading these articles, I've decided to dig a fish pond and plant some vegetables

The best investment you will ever make.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Will people still buy stock when they know the financial statements don't mean squat?

[midas]

Will people still buy stock when they know the financial statements don't mean squat?

I am thinking this every day but the markets dont seem to worry

[lannarebirth]

Will people still buy stock when they know the financial statements don't mean squat?

Past behavior seems to indicate they would.

[lannarebirth]

Good article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

Lannar this is a good article and it reminded me about the link you provided in Post #1281.

" Accounting Brothel Opens Doors for Banker Fiesta: ". Do you happen to know

if the Financial Accounting Standards Board proposal to ignore severe long-term price declines

has been passed?

Is this has gone through or does goes through - how can this possibly be reconciled with what

world leaders are saying at the G 20 today about tougher monetary regulations?

Well Midas, my FASB comments were a little bit tongue in cheek, but I never know which emoticon to use to convey that. FASB changes to MTMA are not nearly so beneficial as hyped. Its enough to trigger a short squeeze but as a basis for a Bull Market, I don't think so.

As for the world leaders, their aims are different from corporations, investors and each other. They want growth again and they want someone else to pay for it. The FASB stuff just buys time, which is very important in and of itself. My biggest gripe about it as that it can be used to hike prices on assets going forward not backward that may then in turn get "sold" to the government.

Personally I'd like to see Geithner get his supreme powers to intercede in corporations and start busting some up. Unfortunately, I don't think very much of his capabilities and of course he can wield this power arbitrarily which in no ones best interests.

[ronz28]

Changing asset valuation rules for some assets from mark to market back to discounted cash flow methods as followed prior to the meltdown should be approved by FASB today and will increase regulatory capital for U.S. banks permitting them to loan more and thus inject more funds into the economy. This should stop the death spiral of asset valuations that was caused by applying mark to market in illiquid markets where only fire sale prices were available.

Also the banks serve as securities custodians for private and public funds and must price their customer assets consistent with FASB rules. When the banks change their valuation methods for their own assets, that should also increase the valuations for the same and similar assets held and priced for their customers consequently increasing the returns to investors that the bank pricing service write downs took away last year. As 401k and other customer savings accounts start to return to prior levels, to me, the wealth effect will convince some consumers to spend again.

Edited April 2, 2009 by ronz28

[lannarebirth]

Changing asset valuation rules for some assets from mark to market back to discounted cash flow methods as followed prior to the meltdown should be approved by FASB today and will increase regulatory capital for U.S. banks permitting them to loan more and thus inject more funds into the economy. This should stop the death spiral of asset valuations that was caused by applying mark to market in illiquid markets where only fire sale prices were available.

Also the banks serve as securities custodians for private and public funds and must price their customer assets consistent with FASB rules. When the banks change their valuation methods for their own assets, that should also increase the valuations for the same and similar assets held and priced for their customers consequently increasing the returns to investors that the bank pricing service write downs took away last year. As 401k and other customer savings accounts start to return to prior levels, to me, the wealth effect will convince some consumers to spend again.

That is certainly the bullish view ronz28. For the sake of balance, here's another view:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

[midas]

Changing asset valuation rules for some assets from mark to market back to discounted cash flow methods as followed prior to the meltdown should be approved by FASB today and will increase regulatory capital for U.S. banks permitting them to loan more and thus inject more funds into the economy. This should stop the death spiral of asset valuations that was caused by applying mark to market in illiquid markets where only fire sale prices were available.

Also the banks serve as securities custodians for private and public funds and must price their customer assets consistent with FASB rules. When the banks change their valuation methods for their own assets, that should also increase the valuations for the same and similar assets held and priced for their customers consequently increasing the returns to investors that the bank pricing service write downs took away last year. As 401k and other customer savings accounts start to return to prior levels, to me, the wealth effect will convince some consumers to spend again.

So you could say we have hit the bottom?

[ronz28]

I think the bottom is in (Nov 21, 2008) in the stock market and successfully retested on lower volume on March 6, 2009. I guess the economy has a little further to go.

[12DrinkMore]

Here come the Chinese

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

April 2 (Bloomberg) -- China’s leaders, increasingly concerned about the nation’s $740 billion of U.S. Treasuries, are making it easier for trading partners and consumers to do business in yuan.

The People’s Bank of China has agreed to provide 650 billion yuan ($95 billion) to Argentina, Belarus, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Malaysia and South Korea through so-called currency- swaps. More such arrangements are being planned so importers can avoid paying for Chinese goods with dollars, the central bank said. In Hong Kong, which has pegged the currency to its U.S. counterpart since 1983, stores from Park’n Shop supermarkets to jewelers accept yuan.

On another drift, there has been a little speculation about the possibility of a country dropping out of the Euro. But I wonder just how it would work. Take as an example Ireland. Sure they could say, OK you peeps (thanks Alex), we are now dropping the Euro and going back to the Punt. But how could they force the peeps to start using the Punt?

Can the government do anymore than the following?

1. Issue tax bills and collect tax in Punts

2. Issue government debt in Punts

3. Pay civil servants in Punts

If the peeps didn't agree, and somehow I really don't think that the Irish peeps would want to convert their personal Euros to Punts, then what could happen is that shops would dual price, banks would offer multi-currency accounts, and there would be the distinct possibility that the new Irish Punt would be subject to rapid devaluation, with peeps converting their Punts to Euros asap, or insisting that that they are paid in Euros.

Would it be legally possible for the Irish government to insist that all bank accounts be converted from Euros into Punts and that Irish peeps can only legally own Punts? I cannot see that happening.

And would it be legal for the Irish government to suddenly state that all government bonds are now to be converted into Punts? Again, I don't believe it would be possible. But I suppose they could force the issue by defaulting on the debt and offering Punts as compensation. But would anybody want them?

Any ideas what would really happen if say the Irish Government dropped the Euro?

[AlexLah]

If EU parliament is that scared about MEP sceptic's about Europe and the Euro, do you really think that they would even think of allowing an EU member to drop out? I tried to find something on the EU website that would explain the process if a country would consider dropping out but so far not lucky.

Will keep digging, I might find something somewhere.

But I think it would be very difficult for a country to do, most likely has to do with contracts and stuff. But anyway an interesting question that makes me think of some other things as well.

Edited April 2, 2009 by AlexLah

[midas]

That is certainly the bullish view ronz28. For the sake of balance, here's another view:

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/

OMG....So it wasnt just the scandal of the bonuses ................

Indeed, our sources as well as press reports suggest that the CDS contracts written by AIG may have included side letters, often in the form of emails rather than formal letters, that essentially violated the ISDA agreements and show that the true, economic reality of these contracts was fraud plain and simple. Unfortunately, by not moving to seize AIG immediately last year when the scandal broke, the Fed and Treasury may have given the AIG managers time to destroy much of the evidence of criminal wrongdoing.

[ronz28]

Posters on market ticker are shooting from the hip without facts. ISDA agreements often are boiler plate terms and conditions with actual settlement, payment terms etc. included in side letters. No big deal and certainly the existence of a side letter is no evidence of fraud and is usual and customary in Swaps, etc. No one company like AIG could destroy a paper trail as copies are at numerous other advisors, brokers, auditors, public record filings, etc.

[AlexLah]

Objection!!!!!!!

All that is so far based on hearsay, I have not seen any of those side letters (and we will most likely never see them).

Do you really think these corporations would do that? Come on, these are such big influential company's they would never take such risk now would they.

Do you really think Paulson, Benny and Timmy and that zombie looking guy Khaskari did knew about this all?

And is that why everything had to be done so swiftly?

Ha ha ha, shafted again!!!!!!!! Next Enron please.

OK 12, from the EU constitution it seems rather easy but there are a few "Barriers" to take and some burning loops/hoops to jump through when a country wants to get out. See for yourself.

[ace]

TA types - any opinions on the current rally, upside resistance ?

[lannarebirth]

Posters on market ticker are shooting from the hip without facts. ISDA agreements often are boiler plate terms and conditions with actual settlement, payment terms etc. included in side letters. No big deal and certainly the existence of a side letter is no evidence of fraud and is usual and customary in Swaps, etc. No one company like AIG could destroy a paper trail as copies are at numerous other advisors, brokers, auditors, public record filings, etc.

I'm sure you'd agree ronz28, that to enter into a contract that one knows they can not make good on, is both fraudulant and the contract generated is unenforceable.

[ronz28]

Take your pick on Technical projections of resistance for the S&P at:

http://charts3.barchart.com/procal.asp?sym=SPY

I am guessing between 92-97 on the SPY until we have a significant retrace but I will be frequently monitoring Mr. Market as he has a mind of his own.

I don't know the details of the AIG holdings and how much of the money flowing to counter-parties was actual settlements and how much was just posting of collateral until settlement. I suspect a lot of it was settlements on bad bets but understand some of the AIG people are being retained until the positions are settled or sold off. AIG's risk management apparently failed but that doesn't mean any one of their contracts were not enforceable until bankruptcy. However, this is just my view, and I am no lawyer and have no knowledge of AIG's specific contracts.

[12DrinkMore]

And yet more drivel and alarming excrement emanating from the twit Brown

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/po...ck-1660207.html

The G20 countries are to make available an additional $1trillion through the International Monetary Fund to boost the world economy, Gordon Brown said today.

I am surprised the Chinese are not demanding more influence on this lot.

But anyway, so how the fukc are they suppose to make 1,000,000,000,000 (these numbers are just incredible) USDs available? Come on, give as clue, Brown. But THEN we have THIS!

The "unprecedented fiscal expansion" already under way would mean a five trillion dollar injection by the middle of next year, he said, helping save or create millions of jobs.

Central banks had agreed to "maintain expansionary policies as long as they are needed using the full range of options available to them".

Oh jesus, FIVE TRILLION INJECTION BY NEXT YEAR.

Is this man sane or what? And as for jobs, well, I suppose five trillion, aka, five times one million times one million, so with all this cash he can create five million millionaires. WOWOOWOWOWOWO! Fukc, am I impressed, where do I send in the application form? Is this to mark the end of the Dollar? Or is Brown planning on printing a humongous number of soon-to-be-worthless Quids?

I am staggered, utterly gobsmacked, what the fukc is going on?????

Who is going to pay for this? Where are all these bits of paper coming from?

The countries had also restated their commitment to the millennium development goals and to helping tackle poverty, he added.

The summit had agreed measures totalling $50 billion to assist the poorest countries.

OH WONDERFUL, HOW VERY CONSIDERATE OF THEM. So the profligate debtors, mostly the UK and the USA are dishing out to themselves FIVE TRILLION and the poorest countries are inline for 1% of this (correct me if I am wrong, these numbers now fail to compute in my brain). But still, here is the

question, WHERE THE FUKC DOES ALL THIS MONEY COME FROM??????

Well, here we go, some 20% comes from

The Prime Minister said the trillion dollars was "new money" from the EU, China, Japan and other nations - generated through the IMF.

WELL REALLY, and it is NEW MONEY? <deleted> is going on here? Generated through the dinosaur of the IMF? And where are the massive debtors in this list? UK and USA? Can't they generate a bit of NEW MONEY as well?

quote...

In a overt warning to countries tempted by protectionist measures, he said: "Members were made very much aware that action that is protectionist will be named and shamed."

"This time of financial crisis is no time to walk away from our commitment to the world's poorest," Mr Brown insisted. "We will not pass by on the other side."

...quote

I am now MADDER than I have EVER been.

Just listen to the fukcing idiot. "Named and Shamed", Yeah, devalue your own currency 30%. Name yourself BROWN and be SHAMED. Bastard.

But a word of truth pops in there, "commitment to the world's poorest", well, who are they????

YES, it's the UK TAXPAYER and well, HELLO, you have BROWN's commitment. (To condemn you to penury for generations)

Never, since I started this thread, have I been so absolutely pissed off by the crap that gushes out of the oral orifices of "Our Illustrious Leaders".

If these policies are put into action, the West is utterly screwed. I hope that the rest of the world is NOT talking the same crap and Brown is well out on his own.

There are three large beers in my fridge. They will be empty by the morning. I am REALLY angry.