Financial Crisis

[yoshiwara]

per se, debt is not a problem and certainly not slavery. Debt actually liberates business opportunity. Without debt any economy would struggle. Also a necessary part of raising debt is risk and risk assessment. The idea of the elimination of debt and risk being achievable or even desirable is a nonsense.

Edited May 27, 2012 by yoshiwara

[lannarebirth]

It will be a fascinating next three weeks. My money is on Angela Merkel holding her nerve. Whether Hollande will is another matter.

without Merkel anything concerning EU debt/finances is a stillborn baby. but somehow i have the feeling that she might cave in even though politically she is between a rock and a hard place, not to forget the federal elections next year.

That's what I think too. I'm glad I don't have any money directly riding on it though.

[midas]

per se, debt is not a problem and certainly not slavery. Debt actually liberates business opportunity. Without debt any economy would struggle. Also a necessary part of raising debt is risk and risk assessment. The idea of the elimination of debt and risk being achievable or even desirable is a nonsense.

yes but how about even just a clue on how its paid back.... just a clue ????

over to you financial Wizard

[midas]

Lloyd's 'has plans for euro collapse'

The insurance market Lloyd's of London is preparing contingency plans for the possibility of the euro collapsing, its chief executive has said.

With Greece facing new elections in June and anti-bailout feelings high, there are fears Athens may be forced to exit the eurozone.Mr Ward is one of the first bosses of a large UK business to admit he is planning for the end of the euro.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/n...siness-18226128

Edited May 27, 2012 by midas

[12DrinkMore]

If I now feel this way, then, once the immensity of what is about to hit the UK in particular, including all the 1,000,000 ex pat pensioners and their families, where will it lead to? The Icelandic government is besieged, in Greece there have been riots. The Brits can take a lot, but once they get riled then the fighting becomes very bitter.

Do you really think that the people have kept their sense, and ability to revolt ? Good for you, it leaves some hope. As for myself, I don't.

General De Gaulle was right. Speaking about the french people he says : "The french are... veals". I know, not very nice, but so true.

People are passive, with a liquefied brain.

Panem et circenses.

Why they made a revolution in 1789 ? Because no bread... But today ? Even with a very deep crisis, they will keep their pint of beer, some KFC or McDonald, and some TV show or football matches... Largely enough to keep them quiet.

I totally agree. Modern day "slavery" (ie debt) is too numbing, and gives people the illusion that one day it will all be ok, if they just keep working hard. It is almost worse than actual slavery in a way -- at least when there were slaves there was something to inspire a revolution. What would the average joe rather do, turn on his credit bought 42 inch plasma and watch kim kardashian's ass bounce around with a coors light in his hand, or start a revolution. The answer to that is evident, and will be for quite some time.

Blimey, that's a blast from the past. When did I post that? 25 January 2009. This HAS been going on a long time.

The "numbing debt" feeling and "what can I do?", coupled with the "heads down and grind off the nose" works OK as long as you can still put food on the table, a coors in the hand and turn on the 42"er.

The Greeks are finding that they can't.

The Icelanders in fact seem to have emerged from their mess OK. They killed the banks and started again.

But I've more or less resigned myself to accepting that as long as the UK peeps have TV's , football, reality dross, and can afford to get pissed out of their brains every night, there will be no revolution.

Yep, you're right.

But Kim Kardashian?

http://www.emirates247.com/news-in-images/kim-kardashian-storms-cannes-with-style-2012-05-27-1.460072

Her arse is far too big for my tastes....

But there again, most of the UK women I get to see have humongous <deleted> and a similar attitude.

[yoshiwara]

per se, debt is not a problem and certainly not slavery. Debt actually liberates business opportunity. Without debt any economy would struggle. Also a necessary part of raising debt is risk and risk assessment. The idea of the elimination of debt and risk being achievable or even desirable is a nonsense.

yes but how about even just a clue on how its paid back.... just a clue ????

over to you financial Wizard

For individuals, many of us at some time in our life take on a housing mortgage, something with an element of risk which we pay off with our career incomes over quite long periods of time. For a buiness it is important to raise capital in order to say purchase capital equipment for developing that business. States raise money for a whole range of activities. On a daily basis, most of us borrow money when we use a credit card. I would guess that every airline on the planet borrows money in one form or another to purchase or lease aircraft. Debt oils the system. Maybe you would like to return to pre-capitalist economic formations.

[midas]

per se, debt is not a problem and certainly not slavery. Debt actually liberates business opportunity. Without debt any economy would struggle. Also a necessary part of raising debt is risk and risk assessment. The idea of the elimination of debt and risk being achievable or even desirable is a nonsense.

yes but how about even just a clue on how its paid back.... just a clue ????

over to you financial Wizard

For individuals, many of us at some time in our life take on a housing mortgage, something with an element of risk which we pay off with our career incomes over quite long periods of time. For a buiness it is important to raise capital in order to say purchase capital equipment for developing that business. States raise money for a whole range of activities. On a daily basis, most of us borrow money when we use a credit card. I would guess that every airline on the planet borrows money in one form or another to purchase or lease aircraft. Debt oils the system. Maybe you would like to return to pre-capitalist economic formations.

this sounds nothing like that

[yoshiwara]

Lloyd's 'has plans for euro collapse'

The insurance market Lloyd's of London is preparing contingency plans for the possibility of the euro collapsing, its chief executive has said.

With Greece facing new elections in June and anti-bailout feelings high, there are fears Athens may be forced to exit the eurozone.Mr Ward is one of the first bosses of a large UK business to admit he is planning for the end of the euro.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/n...siness-18226128

On one level it is important that the mood music coming out of the EU ratchets up and increases pressure on Greece that their vote means potential exit. Raising the heat is positive.

[midas]

Lloyd's 'has plans for euro collapse'

The insurance market Lloyd's of London is preparing contingency plans for the possibility of the euro collapsing, its chief executive has said.

With Greece facing new elections in June and anti-bailout feelings high, there are fears Athens may be forced to exit the eurozone.Mr Ward is one of the first bosses of a large UK business to admit he is planning for the end of the euro.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/n...siness-18226128

On one level it is important that the mood music coming out of the EU ratchets up and increases pressure on Greece that their vote means potential exit. Raising the heat is positive.

Greece also ratchets up

" Greece’s public finances could collapse as early as next month, leaving salaries and pensions unpaid unless a stable government emerges from the June 17 election, according to Lucas Papademos, the technocrat prime minister who left office after this month’s inconclusive vote.

Mr Papademos warned that conditions were deteriorating faster than expected with cash flow likely to turn negative in early June amid a sharp fall in tax revenues and a loosening of spending controls during two back-to-back election campaigns.

Mounting anxiety that Greece is headed for further political instability and a possible exit from the euro has prompted many Greeks to postpone making tax payments, and has also accelerated outflows of deposits from local banks.

Athens bankers estimate that more than €3bn of cash withdrawn since the May 6 election has been stashed in safe-deposit boxes and under mattresses in case the country is forced to readopt the drachma."

http://globaleconomi...ollapse-as.html

Edited May 28, 2012 by midas

[Naam]

"GRexit" = hopefully soon! rather an end with terror than terror without an end. ah sez "let them go down the drain and default on their recently restructured debt!" even though all of us with substantial assets will face considerable [book]losses due to global paranoia and risk aversion.

[yoshiwara]

"GRexit" = hopefully soon! rather an end with terror than terror without an end. ah sez "let them go down the drain and default on their recently restructured debt!" even though all of us with substantial assets will face considerable [book]losses due to global paranoia and risk aversion.

You might be disappointed for some time if the polls move further towards the Coalition Parties and continued dissembling. Maybe it is slowly permeating the thick heads of Greek public sector employees that they might be paid in new Drachmas.

Edited May 28, 2012 by yoshiwara

[flying]

"GRexit" = hopefully soon! rather an end with terror than terror without an end. ah sez "let them go down the drain and default on their recently restructured debt!" even though all of us with substantial assets will face considerable [book]losses due to global paranoia and risk aversion.

But would that be the end or the start of a dominoes effect?

[midas]

"GRexit" = hopefully soon! rather an end with terror than terror without an end. ah sez "let them go down the drain and default on their recently restructured debt!" even though all of us with substantial assets will face considerable [book]losses due to global paranoia and risk aversion.

You might be disappointed for some time if the polls move further towards the Coalition Parties and continued dissembling. Maybe it is slowly permeating the thick heads of Greek public sector employees that they might be paid in new Drachmas.

and based on Iceland's experience that might not be a bad thing

Welcome to the Currency War, Part 1: Iceland and the Tragedy of the Commons

So regardless of whether the eurozone dissolves or endures, devaluation is the centerpiece policy. Either the drachma, peseta and lira are revived at a 50% discount, or the euro is devalued by a similar amount. There’s no sound-currency solution to all this debt.

and i know Yoshiwara that you will not like the last 3 words of this article....

http://dollarcollapse.com/inflation/welcome-to-the-currency-war-part-1-iceland-and-the-tragedy-of-the-commons/

[churchill]

"GRexit" = hopefully soon! rather an end with terror than terror without an end. ah sez "let them go down the drain and default on their recently restructured debt!" even though all of us with substantial assets will face considerable [book]losses due to global paranoia and risk aversion.

But would that be the end or the start of a dominoes effect?

Once selling starts who knows where it will end ... Euro down , Markets down , USD up ...

Perhaps the beginning of the end of the Euro ... Bank runs following on in Spain will make matters worse , lack of confidence in Europe ..will effect UK ... stronger USD will hurt the US ..

So then perhaps we get another round of QE ...

But politicians have had years of meeting , road maps are in place .. problem is nobody believes them .

[churchill]

Linda Yueh ‏@lindayueh

#Spain gov has informed ECB of plans to recapitalize lenders through state bonds; ECB not objecting: RTRS citing Spanish gov source

[churchill]

Goldman’s O’Neill talks football ... also, Greece

Commentary: Will Hellenic Republic be relegated or stay in euro zone?

http://www.marketwat...25?pagenumber=2

'“China creates the economic equivalent of Greece in 11 ½ weeks,” he said. “Whether Greece is either in or out of the union is neither here nor there. The issue is: Can it be managed without horrible contagion?”

The question of a potential Greek exit has been posed repeatedly to O’Neill in recent weeks, and he has said that he expects the Hellenic Republic to stay put.'

...

'And the silver lining in this “complete mess”?

“In many ways, I think it’s great that Greece has put this huge spanner in the works,” he said, “because now [France and Germany] have got to decide whether they want this dam_n thing or not.”

Edited May 28, 2012 by churchill

[Naam]

“Whether Greece is either in or out of the union is neither here nor there. The issue is: Can it be managed without horrible contagion?”

no it cannot. various crises provide hard evidence that the paranoia of investors, aka the famous "Mr. Market", can be and most of the times was virtually unlimited concerning risk aversion.

the latter spreads like an avalanche and i am betting my [not so] sweet butt that the value of yak milk butter in Tibet, shrink heads in Papua New Guinea, icebergs in the North Atlantic and shares of single malt distilleries in Scotland will fall if Greece opts out of the €UR for a new Drachma and defaults on its recently restructured debt.

most probably it will even affect the bar fines in Pattaya's Walking Street and the price of som tam in Nakhon Nowhere

[churchill]

“Whether Greece is either in or out of the union is neither here nor there. The issue is: Can it be managed without horrible contagion?”

no it cannot. various crises provide hard evidence that the paranoia of investors, aka the famous "Mr. Market", can be and most of the times was virtually unlimited concerning risk aversion.

the latter spreads like an avalanche and i am betting my [not so] sweet butt that the value of yak milk butter in Tibet, shrink heads in Papua New Guinea, icebergs in the North Atlantic and shares of single malt distilleries in Scotland will fall if Greece opts out of the €UR for a new Drachma and defaults on its recently restructured debt.

most probably it will even affect the bar fines in Pattaya's Walking Street and the price of som tam in Nakhon Nowhere

How likely is it for Greeks for vote to have their savings , property .. devalued by 60% ..

I think they will vote a party to keep Greece in the Euro ..

Which means death by 1000 cuts ....

[midas]

“Whether Greece is either in or out of the union is neither here nor there. The issue is: Can it be managed without horrible contagion?”

no it cannot. various crises provide hard evidence that the paranoia of investors, aka the famous "Mr. Market", can be and most of the times was virtually unlimited concerning risk aversion.

the latter spreads like an avalanche and i am betting my [not so] sweet butt that the value of yak milk butter in Tibet, shrink heads in Papua New Guinea, icebergs in the North Atlantic and shares of single malt distilleries in Scotland will fall if Greece opts out of the €UR for a new Drachma and defaults on its recently restructured debt.

most probably it will even affect the bar fines in Pattaya's Walking Street and the price of som tam in Nakhon Nowhere

How likely is it for Greeks for vote to have their savings , property .. devalued by 60% ..

I think they will vote a party to keep Greece in the Euro ..

Which means death by 1000 cuts ....

BUT

" With all of the talk of Greece leaving the Eurozone and forfeiting the Euro as its currency;

what if it does not?

That, my friends, is now the question. The current estimation of Greece’s GDP is $308.3 billion. All of the debt of Greece, direct, derivatives and guaranteed is $1.3 trillion giving the country an actual debt to GDP ratio of 421.67%. "

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/were-not-wonderland-anymore-alice-and-true-greek-debtgdp-ratio-4217

[yoshiwara]

"GRexit" = hopefully soon! rather an end with terror than terror without an end. ah sez "let them go down the drain and default on their recently restructured debt!" even though all of us with substantial assets will face considerable [book]losses due to global paranoia and risk aversion.

You might be disappointed for some time if the polls move further towards the Coalition Parties and continued dissembling. Maybe it is slowly permeating the thick heads of Greek public sector employees that they might be paid in new Drachmas.

and based on Iceland's experience that might not be a bad thing

Welcome to the Currency War, Part 1: Iceland and the Tragedy of the Commons

So regardless of whether the eurozone dissolves or endures, devaluation is the centerpiece policy. Either the drachma, peseta and lira are revived at a 50% discount, or the euro is devalued by a similar amount. There’s no sound-currency solution to all this debt.

and i know Yoshiwara that you will not like the last 3 words of this article....

http://dollarcollaps...of-the-commons/

You should have read the article before posting. It suggests that part of Iceland's success is due to imposing capital controls and increasing welfare payments. Both of which you are no doubt in favour of. Yes?

Edited May 28, 2012 by yoshiwara

[Naam]

based on Iceland's experience that might not be a bad thing

Iceland is not a country. it's a remote island on which fewer inhabitants live than in one of Bangkok's suburbs.

[midas]

based on Iceland's experience that might not be a bad thing

Iceland is not a country. it's a remote island on which fewer inhabitants live than in one of Bangkok's suburbs.

its quality not quantity... at least this small group had backbone

Edited May 29, 2012 by midas

[yoshiwara]

based on Iceland's experience that might not be a bad thing

Iceland is not a country. it's a remote island on which fewer inhabitants live than in one of Bangkok's suburbs.

its quality not quantity... at least this small group had backbone

To up welfare payments. The Greek Radical Left Party will be as excited as you about that one.

[midas]

You might be disappointed for some time if the polls move further towards the Coalition Parties and continued dissembling. Maybe it is slowly permeating the thick heads of Greek public sector employees that they might be paid in new Drachmas.

and based on Iceland's experience that might not be a bad thing

Welcome to the Currency War, Part 1: Iceland and the Tragedy of the Commons

So regardless of whether the eurozone dissolves or endures, devaluation is the centerpiece policy. Either the drachma, peseta and lira are revived at a 50% discount, or the euro is devalued by a similar amount. There’s no sound-currency solution to all this debt.

and i know Yoshiwara that you will not like the last 3 words of this article....

http://dollarcollaps...of-the-commons/

You should have read the article before posting. It suggests that part of Iceland's success is due to imposing capital controls and increasing welfare payments. Both of which you are no doubt in favour of. Yes?

according to twitter that is coming

eWallstreeter.com ‏@ewallstreeter

Capital Controls Coming to Greece and Switzerland http://bit.ly/K5YIy7

https://twitter.com/...269322178048000

http://hoosierdome.blogspot.com/2012/05/capital-controls-coming-to-greece-and.html

Edited May 29, 2012 by midas

[churchill]

'Capital Controls Coming to Greece and Switzerland http://bit.ly/K5YIy7'

If they do that won't it cause panic in other areas ... Spain++

[Naam]

capital controls coming to Switzerland

[Asiantravel]

'Capital Controls Coming to Greece and Switzerland http://bit.ly/K5YIy7'

If they do that won't it cause panic in other areas ... Spain++

anyone that still has their

money in the banks in these countries must be crazy ?

I mean what are they waiting for ?

Edited May 29, 2012 by Asiantravel

[Naam]

based on Iceland's experience that might not be a bad thing

Iceland is not a country. it's a remote island on which fewer inhabitants live than in one of Bangkok's suburbs.

its quality not quantity... at least this small group had backbone

the quality and backbone of fraudsters and thieves who get away with their loot is indeed admirable. what next? knighthood for armed robbers?

[Naam]

'Capital Controls Coming to Greece and Switzerland http://bit.ly/K5YIy7'

If they do that won't it cause panic in other areas ... Spain++

anyone that still has their

money in the banks in these countries must be crazy ?

I mean what are they waiting for ?

they are waiting for you to digest "capital controls in Switzerland". but your questions indicate clearly that you suffer from indigestion

[midas]

capital controls coming to Switzerland

Some major banks sense vulnerability. "The honeymoon for the SNB is over," said Paul Meggyesi, a currency strategist at JPMorgan Chase JPM -1.38% & Co. in a research note to clients Monday. A break in the floor is a matter of time, the U.S. bank said. "We are more comfortable in predicting the ultimate demise of the floor...than in calling the timing of such a shift," it said.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303807404577432052138232784.html