Financial Crisis

[mccw]

First hand knowledge. Hong Kong over 4% .

Amazing! Congratulations, you actually contributed a piece of information to the thread.

Indeed 4% is not too bad. I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format cheers, that's what makes me not worry about a missed few % by keeping a healthy PMs reserve just in case some those major "end of the world" risks, old Mervin was talking about the other day, ever came to pass

[midas]

Your right and for many of those buyers they would rather just have it to use themselves. But within the market there are probably not billionaires but millionaires on high salaries bought with leverage. Also I've read a few articles + adverts for funds that invest and or renovate such properties.

It's not about to trigger a crash in the economy or anything. I just mention since a much repeated mantra seems to be "prime" property will be the only section to go up and up and up .......

talked to an old friend of mine and asked him how his two boys are doing and whether it paid to send them to a fancy UK boarding school and university. he told me that one got a good job with McKinsey based in Paris and the other one started a year ago asan investment banker with Deutsche Bank, London. he rents a tiny 25m² studio apartment and pays 850 Pounds. when i whistled and said "but that's more than a thousand EURos!" he added "per week, not per month!"

Quite.

And then there are council towers in central London with people living on hand outs contributing nothing to society. The government should send em all up north and sell the land. Probably billions of £s total to be had. Better still run government like business and invest in development to bring in new revenue stream and stimulate economy.

I cant see why gov can't run like a business and make a profit. Just need the balls to break union miscreants if they stand in the way.

This is how Singapore does so well apparently.

/

Edited October 28, 2012 by midas

[midas]

Quite.

And then there are council towers in central London with people living on hand outs contributing nothing to society.

Advances in technology and innovation especially in robotics are meaning, and increasingly will mean, there is not enough work to go around. However the same or more wealth will be created.

This will mean a seismic shift socially and a method will need to arise whereby people who don't work get an equitable share of the world's bounty.

Perhaps you could see your council tenants in Central London as an early forerunner of that and save yourself the blood pressure you're obviously generating.

you have the same kind of " logic " as this woman

[yoshiwara]

Your right and for many of those buyers they would rather just have it to use themselves. But within the market there are probably not billionaires but millionaires on high salaries bought with leverage. Also I've read a few articles + adverts for funds that invest and or renovate such properties.

It's not about to trigger a crash in the economy or anything. I just mention since a much repeated mantra seems to be "prime" property will be the only section to go up and up and up .......

talked to an old friend of mine and asked him how his two boys are doing and whether it paid to send them to a fancy UK boarding school and university. he told me that one got a good job with McKinsey based in Paris and the other one started a year ago asan investment banker with Deutsche Bank, London. he rents a tiny 25m² studio apartment and pays 850 Pounds. when i whistled and said "but that's more than a thousand EURos!" he added "per week, not per month!"

Quite.

And then there are council towers in central London with people living on hand outs contributing nothing to society. The government should send em all up north and sell the land. Probably billions of £s total to be had. Better still run government like business and invest in development to bring in new revenue stream and stimulate economy.

I cant see why gov can't run like a business and make a profit. Just need the balls to break union miscreants if they stand in the way.

This is how Singapore does so well apparently.

/

Singapore has a large public sector accommodation provision.

[yoshiwara]

First hand knowledge. Hong Kong over 4% .

Amazing! Congratulations, you actually contributed a piece of information to the thread.

Indeed 4% is not too bad. I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format cheers, that's what makes me not worry about a missed few % by keeping a healthy PMs reserve just in case some those major "end of the world" risks, old Mervin was talking about the other day, ever came to pass

The point to be made about housing is that it is not just one market and generalising from one very expensive property is not applicable.

The second is that over a period of time one's returns will improve if rents go north. The key point is what one can expect as ROI now if one enters the market.

And 1% is not that figure.

[mccw]

First hand knowledge. Hong Kong over 4% .

Amazing! Congratulations, you actually contributed a piece of information to the thread.

Indeed 4% is not too bad. I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format cheers, that's what makes me not worry about a missed few % by keeping a healthy PMs reserve just in case some those major "end of the world" risks, old Mervin was talking about the other day, ever came to pass

The point to be made about housing is that it is not just one market and generalising from one very expensive property is not applicable.

The second is that over a period of time one's returns will improve if rents go north. The key point is what one can expect as ROI now if one enters the market.

And 1% is not that figure.

True that; I hate generalisation about the property market also, since every micro market is different. This is why I suggest looking at rental return as the true measure value over future guess/ hope on capital appreciation.

The super prime at 1 or 2 % I'd consider over priced and your HK 4or 5 is not too bad. So there it is in action. I'd guess in NY and HK etc there are places also at 1 and 2% when others = 4 and this is how one can spot an over stretch in asking price.

[manarak]

every 3 or 4 pages something useful is posted in this thread.

[Naam]

First hand knowledge. Hong Kong over 4% .

Amazing! Congratulations, you actually contributed a piece of information to the thread.

Indeed 4% is not too bad. I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format cheers, that's what makes me not worry about a missed few % by keeping a healthy PMs reserve just in case some those major "end of the world" risks, old Mervin was talking about the other day, ever came to pass

yield of rental property in Singapore less than 1.5% after taxes. i'm quite surprised to see the HK yield at 4%.

[mccw]

I just finished reading the "crash course", thanks who ever put the link up, and so thinking to the future 10, 20, 40 years and further. The ideas of the three levels of wealth, basically the energy, ore or farm as the first, the developed product derived from the first is the second, and the third is a paper or electronic claim on some of the first or second forms. Next year we intend to secure ourselves a stable source of the primary kind, ie good quality farm land and water resources.

Has anyone else here read it?

Yes many times and highly recommend it. There are many small communities forming around those ideas, and we have one up here in Pai. We irrigate our land with gravity-powered water and fertilize it with locally produced organic materials. Farmland and other sustainable natural resources should have been at the apex of Exter's pyramid IMO. Unlike the US, no tax on land or government minders cracking down on raising a few of your own chickens in LOS, at least so far.....

Hello

Interesting to hear of what you are doing. It's great the freedom in Thailand to just crack on and do what you feel to do with out the government interfering at every step; another reason it's a better/ more adaptable place to be long term. The way food and supply chain are so far removed from people's live in west is seriously dangerous I think.

I've been pondering more and more about new energy reality and future economy will be like 10-50 years and onwards. So as well as a good sized farm run sustainably; I also think an investment (as soon as possible before costs of everything explode) in to the area of energy production itself could be a nice future income stream. I'm thinking bio gas bottling and solar farm. Also compost and bricket fuel production from waste.

Do you have similar already?

What do think/ other ideas on diversified income for the future economy? If only a farm then risk of pestilence, weather and such could lead to suffering. More strings to the bow the better is my thinking; as the preppers like to say "not just survive but thrive" or something to that effect.

I also thought to training as renewable energy engineer while still here in uk so could Start systems instillation company when living in Thailand. Any falang run/ speaking operating now I don't know- I'm at first stages of this longer term plan. But actually would love to just sell up now and move over ASAP if I didn't have the ties I do now. I hope and pray there's another 3-5 years left at least before any major disruptions in the global system.

Do you know of any consultancy services that cover all these kinds of farming and renewable technology things? Like for example how much animal shit = how much gas and how much land, water etc to the sustain the equation. Best breeds etc. I'll be researching more extensively myself of course but any input you might have would be much appreciated.

Cheers

[LaoPo]

I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format

.....where's that? do you rent out rooms only...how, where and what?; in a house or apartment building? Your info is meager unless I've missed an earlier post of course

Just curious

[mccw]

I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format

.....where's that? do you rent out rooms only...how, where and what?; in a house or apartment building? Your info is meager unless I've missed an earlier post of course

Just curious

I have detailed it before I think.

Basically look UK high demand area and apply the rental return technique to the market research but then think rather than whole house or flat see how many rooms it can be subdivided to. Example a 4 bed family home with a large living room + diner can come to be 7 rental rooms. Leverage with a mortgage and minus this cost and utilities from the gross income and if selected right should be 28-33%. (If cash then only 13 or so %.) Can then add extra income buy building studio rooms in extension or annex if you can select the house on suitable plot.

[mccw]

"Cliff divers"

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2019542457_cliffdivers28.html

What d'y'all make of this?

Edited October 28, 2012 by mccw

[LaoPo]

I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format

.....where's that? do you rent out rooms only...how, where and what?; in a house or apartment building? Your info is meager unless I've missed an earlier post of course

Just curious

I have detailed it before I think.

Basically look UK high demand area and apply the rental return technique to the market research but then think rather than whole house or flat see how many rooms it can be subdivided to. Example a 4 bed family home with a large living room + diner can come to be 7 rental rooms. Leverage with a mortgage and minus this cost and utilities from the gross income and if selected right should be 28-33%. (If cash then only 13 or so %.) Can then add extra income buy building studio rooms in extension or annex if you can select the house on suitable plot.

Hmmm...I'm in real estate myself and know about your mathematics in your example

.

I don't know about the UK but in my country there's NO bank or financial institution who would give you the mortgage in your example and I doubt if they would in the UK!

Rental income is considered a very weak income since people renting rooms are very unreliable and can disappear overnight and thus NO bank will step in and certainly not in these crisis times.

[mccw]

I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format

.....where's that? do you rent out rooms only...how, where and what?; in a house or apartment building? Your info is meager unless I've missed an earlier post of course

Just curious

I have detailed it before I think.

Basically look UK high demand area and apply the rental return technique to the market research but then think rather than whole house or flat see how many rooms it can be subdivided to. Example a 4 bed family home with a large living room + diner can come to be 7 rental rooms. Leverage with a mortgage and minus this cost and utilities from the gross income and if selected right should be 28-33%. (If cash then only 13 or so %.) Can then add extra income buy building studio rooms in extension or annex if you can select the house on suitable plot.

Hmmm...I'm in real estate myself and know about your mathematics in your example

.

I don't know about the UK but in my country there's NO bank or financial institution who would give you the mortgage in your example and I doubt if they would in the UK!

Rental income is considered a very weak income since people renting rooms are very unreliable and can disappear overnight and thus NO bank will step in and certainly not in these crisis times.

75 and 80% LTVs available fairly easily for it as a whole house (up to four beds) and if needs be can switch over to a multiple tenancy one at 65%. I expect the rules will tighten over the coming years though. When I first took the loans I didn't need to show any evidence of anything, just check my credit rating and away I went. I expect when I sell in 3-5years I'll limited to cash investors only; still 13 or 14% return I'll look to resale at 8-10% (ie nice capital increase for me) % which is still a great return in today's environment.

[yoshiwara]

First hand knowledge. Hong Kong over 4% .

Amazing! Congratulations, you actually contributed a piece of information to the thread.

Indeed 4% is not too bad. I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format cheers, that's what makes me not worry about a missed few % by keeping a healthy PMs reserve just in case some those major "end of the world" risks, old Mervin was talking about the other day, ever came to pass

yield of rental property in Singapore less than 1.5% after taxes. i'm quite surprised to see the HK yield at 4%.

4%+ gross (prior to new non-resident purchase tax)

[yoshiwara]

I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format

.....where's that? do you rent out rooms only...how, where and what?; in a house or apartment building? Your info is meager unless I've missed an earlier post of course

Just curious

I have detailed it before I think.

Basically look UK high demand area and apply the rental return technique to the market research but then think rather than whole house or flat see how many rooms it can be subdivided to. Example a 4 bed family home with a large living room + diner can come to be 7 rental rooms. Leverage with a mortgage and minus this cost and utilities from the gross income and if selected right should be 28-33%. (If cash then only 13 or so %.) Can then add extra income buy building studio rooms in extension or annex if you can select the house on suitable plot.

I think you should only really quote the cash ROI figure which gives the base return for all investors undertaking such a rental type.

[LaoPo]

75 and 80% LTVs available fairly easily for it as a whole house (up to four beds) and if needs be can switch over to a multiple tenancy one at 65%. I expect the rules will tighten over the coming years though. When I first took the loans I didn't need to show any evidence of anything, just check my credit rating and away I went. I expect when I sell in 3-5years I'll limited to cash investors only; still 13 or 14% return I'll look to resale at 8-10% (ie nice capital increase for me) % which is still a great return in today's environment.

I wonder in what kind of world you live in...

[mccw]

I'll still stick with my 30 + % rooms format

.....where's that? do you rent out rooms only...how, where and what?; in a house or apartment building? Your info is meager unless I've missed an earlier post of course

Just curious

I have detailed it before I think.

Basically look UK high demand area and apply the rental return technique to the market research but then think rather than whole house or flat see how many rooms it can be subdivided to. Example a 4 bed family home with a large living room + diner can come to be 7 rental rooms. Leverage with a mortgage and minus this cost and utilities from the gross income and if selected right should be 28-33%. (If cash then only 13 or so %.) Can then add extra income buy building studio rooms in extension or annex if you can select the house on suitable plot.

I think you should only really quote the cash ROI figure which gives the base return for all investors undertaking such a rental type.

12-14% ROI then and work out what ever leverage you fancy then.

The point I was making was the 1-2%ers are over priced/ top of a bubble.

If looking to diversify or otherwise invest in property with out the leg work or potential tenant head aches of what i do then currently I'd advise to track down a good 7-10 % middle of the road option; stable decent return and less potential for a dramatic drop. Too be honest I'm thinking to swap over to these bit by bit so can leave to an agent to take care when we come back to Thailand ASAP. What I'm doing now is only really worth the hassle because the extra income is badly need to cover the private 24hrs care costs of my parents to keep living at home with out any the government help; its why I'm work so hard and feel so sick to see my tax money given to bloody lazy lay about benifits scrounges

[mccw]

^Take care parents, take care kids, family, future. Real life by your own plan. Not suckle on the teat of state or put faith in the company pension pot.

[mccw]

^Excuse me- just the news pissing me off and looking forward to Monday morning;)

One ray of sunshine is the Home Secretary seems to of grown a pair ands started revoking the British citizen ship of Islamic extremists captured overseas. No arsing about the the courts, just bang , your not welcome back

[Naam]

the Home Secretary seems to of grown a pair...

what's the meaning of "of grown"?

[yoshiwara]

12-14% ROI then and work out what ever leverage you fancy then.

The point I was making was the 1-2%ers are over priced/ top of a bubble.

If looking to diversify or otherwise invest in property with out the leg work or potential tenant head aches of what i do then currently I'd advise to track down a good 7-10 % middle of the road option; stable decent return and less potential for a dramatic drop. Too be honest I'm thinking to swap over to these bit by bit so can leave to an agent to take care when we come back to Thailand ASAP. What I'm doing now is only really worth the hassle because the extra income is badly need to cover the private 24hrs care costs of my parents to keep living at home with out any the government help; its why I'm work so hard and feel so sick to see my tax money given to bloody lazy lay about benifits scrounges

I think the high-level stuff, the trophy properties, are in a category that is really out of most of our leagues, so I would not get hung up on them.

As you know the higher return with the multi-occupancy has an additional time overhead so you have to be more around when necessary to take care of things, even manage the agents who are only available/willing to do so much. If your personal needs necessitate this (ie supporting your parents) then that is what you do.

However....if you can and want to reduce your time overhead and the returns justify the expenditure then one option is to sell the property portfolio and reinvest the lot in one/two low maintenance high location apartments with good quality tenants and get more time for yourself. Of course it depends what the portfolio would bring, takes time to sell with the ongoing disruption to income plus capital gains tax considerations. Where to? near the City is worth a look, but the entry price is not cheap and may not fit in with your business model.

[cloudhopper]

The way food and supply chain are so far removed from people's live in west is seriously dangerous I think.

I've been pondering more and more about new energy reality and future economy will be like 10-50 years and onwards. So as well as a good sized farm run sustainably; I also think an investment (as soon as possible before costs of everything explode) in to the area of energy production itself could be a nice future income stream. I'm thinking bio gas bottling and solar farm. Also compost and bricket fuel production from waste.

Do you have similar already?

What do think/ other ideas on diversified income for the future economy? If only a farm then risk of pestilence, weather and such could lead to suffering. More strings to the bow the better is my thinking; as the preppers like to say "not just survive but thrive" or something to that effect.

I also thought to training as renewable energy engineer while still here in uk so could Start systems instillation company when living in Thailand. Any falang run/ speaking operating now I don't know- I'm at first stages of this longer term plan. But actually would love to just sell up now and move over ASAP if I didn't have the ties I do now. I hope and pray there's another 3-5 years left at least before any major disruptions in the global system.

Do you know of any consultancy services that cover all these kinds of farming and renewable technology things? Like for example how much animal shit = how much gas and how much land, water etc to the sustain the equation. Best breeds etc. I'll be researching more extensively myself of course but any input you might have would be much appreciated.

Cheers

With increasing complexity comes both increased vulnerability and unpredictability. You have many good ideas but no one can do all things so those who can integrate themselves into a cooperative community will do the best, regardless of their individual skills. The TV farming forum is a great resource.

[mccw]

^ yes; that's the plan when I can afford to do so. But I'd only consider freehold, never leasehold. I'm thinking a couple of freehold buildings (ex large 4or four level town houses) which can be subdivide to 3 or 4 self contained flats each block. Sell a couple of the flats on new 99year leases and keep the rest for rent through agents. This way should max returns. Not often such properties come to market anymore since most were converted already in the naughties. I have my locations figured out; its not central London but still high demand. The more central one goes the worse the ROI it seems from my research.

(I only mentioned the super prime as a talking point since I'm always hearing people repeat that that's the best or only place to make money in the market these days; really it makes no difference to me at all)

[mccw]

Reading some tax details it seems I, or anyone else in a similar position to me looking to move overseas and reposition investments, would be best to move first and declare non resident / non Dom status. Then sell all assets with no capital gains tax to pay, reinvest and declare your non Dom status on yearly returns so the rental income is not subject to any income tax either!

Looks like you must stay away for minimum 5 years and not come back for any more than 90days per year.

Happy days.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/faqs_capgains.htm

Edited October 29, 2012 by mccw

[cloudhopper]

^ yes; that's the plan when I can afford to do so. But I'd only consider freehold, never leasehold.

Any property taxed by the state is never freehold IMO.

[yoshiwara]

Reading some tax details it seems I, or anyone else in a similar position to me looking to move overseas and reposition investments, would be best to move first and declare non resident / non Dom status. Then sell all assets with no capital gains tax to pay, reinvest and declare your non Dom status on yearly returns so the rental income is not subject to any income tax either!

Looks like you must stay away for minimum 5 years and not come back for any more than 90days per year.

Happy days.

http://www.hmrc.gov....qs_capgains.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/nr-landlords.htm

[yoshiwara]

Reading some tax details it seems I, or anyone else in a similar position to me looking to move overseas and reposition investments, would be best to move first and declare non resident / non Dom status. Then sell all assets with no capital gains tax to pay, reinvest and declare your non Dom status on yearly returns so the rental income is not subject to any income tax either!

Looks like you must stay away for minimum 5 years and not come back for any more than 90days per year.

Happy days.

http://www.hmrc.gov....qs_capgains.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov....r-landlords.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/tax-leave-uk.htm

[mccw]

"UBS has confirmed it is cutting 10,000 jobs as it looks to drastically shrink its ailing investment bank which has a large presence in London.

Switzerland's biggest bank announced the plans as part of its third-quarter results which revealed a loss of 2.2 billion Swiss francs (£1.43bn) compared to a profit of 1.02 billion (£0.67bn) in the same period last year."- RT app

[Naam]

^ yes; that's the plan when I can afford to do so. But I'd only consider freehold, never leasehold.

Any property taxed by the state is never freehold IMO.

taxhold?