Financial Crisis

[mccw]

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20451176

[Naam]

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20451176

what's new about tax evasion and how do corporate service providers relate to "financial crisis"?

[mccw]

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20451176

what's new about tax evasion and how do corporate service providers relate to "financial crisis"?

in the context of other news this week of major corporations paying no corporation tax, along with all the bank bailouts and market manipulation, just another example of how this financial crises is laying bare systemic ills ; a destroyed tax base and broken markets.

[Naam]

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20451176

what's new about tax evasion and how do corporate service providers relate to "financial crisis"?

in the context of other news this week of major corporations paying no corporation tax, along with all the bank bailouts and market manipulation, just another example of how this financial crises is laying bare systemic ills ; a destroyed tax base and broken markets.

these problems have always existed but are not the reasons of "the crisis".

[midas]

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20451176

what's new about tax evasion and how do corporate service providers relate to "financial crisis"?

in the context of other news this week of major corporations paying no corporation tax, along with all the bank bailouts and market manipulation, just another example of how this financial crises is laying bare systemic ills ; a destroyed tax base and broken markets.

these problems have always existed but are not the reasons of "the crisis".

They might not be the reasons for the crisis but they are certainly a huge contributing factor that will exacerbate the crisis even further. The USA and Europe are examples of entitlement societies at their worst and with unemployment at staggering rates I believe what mccw’s article reminds us of is that that there will be a tipping point in the not too distant future where people will be unwilling or unable to pay enough taxes for governments to maintain social cohesion.

Edited November 26, 2012 by midas

[mania]

there will be a tipping point in the not too distant future where people will be unwilling or unable to pay enough taxes for governments to maintain social cohesion.

I think social cohesion has never been a problem tax.

I do think the tipping point is when folks decide they are no longer represented by the government they pay to represent them.

When they decide they will no longer fund unfunded wars & do not want their children to either.

When they have seen enough of the bailing out of those who never deserved to be paid for their indiscretions.

Social cohesion is cheap in comparison & can be easily handled at the State level ( using USA as an example here )

I think most folks have never had a problem with contributing to their futures, fire departments,roads,schools,police etc.

But contributing to their own demise is a horse of another color. That is where we stand today.

[Naam]

They might not be the reasons for the crisis but they are certainly a huge contributing factor that will exacerbate the crisis even further. The USA and Europe are examples of entitlement societies at their worst and with unemployment at staggering rates I believe what mccw’s article reminds us of is that that there will be a tipping point in the not too distant future where people will be unwilling or unable to pay enough taxes for governments to maintain social cohesion.

people who work don't have the option "unwilling to pay taxes" because taxes are deducted from their salaries/wages or added a indirect taxes on prices for goods and services. it goes without saying that people who are unable (as in cannot afford) to pay taxes are either unemployed or earn below an applicable tax bracket.

it also goes without saying that, irrespective of "crisis or no crisis", the entitlements for welfare/social nets in most (but not all) European countries cannot be maintained.

the argument "tipping point / taxes" is therefore irrelevant, notwithstanding the fact that more and more social unrest will happen. however, social unrest can neither create income for the unrestive nor generate revenue for the government. a zero sum game even if the masses "win" as they did in Algeria, Tunesia, Libya and Egypt where life goes on as it did before.

for the poor and/or unemployed citizens of the heavily indebted European countries the outlook is even worse even if the unrestive masses are able to force their governments to default on their debt which means no access to finance which is necessary for growth.

[midas]

there will be a tipping point in the not too distant future where people will be unwilling or unable to pay enough taxes for governments to maintain social cohesion.

I think social cohesion has never been a problem tax.

I do think the tipping point is when folks decide they are no longer represented by the government they pay to represent them.

When they decide they will no longer fund unfunded wars & do not want their children to either.

When they have seen enough of the bailing out of those who never deserved to be paid for their indiscretions.

Social cohesion is cheap in comparison & can be easily handled at the State level ( using USA as an example here )

I think most folks have never had a problem with contributing to their futures, fire departments,roads,schools,police etc.

But contributing to their own demise is a horse of another color. That is where we stand today.

Where are the states going to get enough money from ? Out of 50 there are only TWO financially solvent states in USA ( Montana and North Dakota ) with 10 insolvent and expected to file for bankruptcy. Even 42 municipalities have gone bankrupt.

Any finaicial "safety net " at any level of government these days can evaporate pretty quickly

Edited November 26, 2012 by midas

[midas]

They might not be the reasons for the crisis but they are certainly a huge contributing factor that will exacerbate the crisis even further. The USA and Europe are examples of entitlement societies at their worst and with unemployment at staggering rates I believe what mccw’s article reminds us of is that that there will be a tipping point in the not too distant future where people will be unwilling or unable to pay enough taxes for governments to maintain social cohesion.

people who work don't have the option "unwilling to pay taxes" because taxes are deducted from their salaries/wages or added a indirect taxes on prices for goods and services. it goes without saying that people who are unable (as in cannot afford) to pay taxes are either unemployed or earn below an applicable tax bracket.

it also goes without saying that, irrespective of "crisis or no crisis", the entitlements for welfare/social nets in most (but not all) European countries cannot be maintained.

the argument "tipping point / taxes" is therefore irrelevant, notwithstanding the fact that more and more social unrest will happen. however, social unrest can neither create income for the unrestive nor generate revenue for the government. a zero sum game even if the masses "win" as they did in Algeria, Tunesia, Libya and Egypt where life goes on as it did before.

for the poor and/or unemployed citizens of the heavily indebted European countries the outlook is even worse even if the unrestive masses are able to force their governments to default on their debt which means no access to finance which is necessary for growth.

I think ‘ social unrest ‘ in USA when people can no longer get their stuff will be dramatically different to anything we saw in Algeria, Tunesia, Libya and Egypt

[mania]

Where are the states going to get enough money from ? Out of 50 there are only TWO financially solvent states in USA ( Montana and North Dakota ) with 10 insolvent and expected to file for bankruptcy. Even 42 municipalities have gone bankrupt.

Any finaicial "safety net " at any level of government these days can evaporate pretty quickly

Same place they always have.

But it needs to be restarted. Things like insane unions need to be ousted

Number need to be recalculated. Budgets need to be realistic & adhered to.

This will all happen one way or another.

There will be a collapse whether we want one or not.

This prolonging is only making it ultimately worse in size & pain to be dealt later.

But at the first steps of rebuilding this is where it will start.

It is too bad they could not see & react sooner but here we are now.

What Naam said is true many,most have no choice as their taxes are drawn from their

pay before they see it. This will lead to a bigger & bigger black market of services & goods.

The government may try to intercept this with a VAT or the cessation of physical currency all together. who knows?

Neither does anyone know how long it will take or if it will even be noticed initially. When things change slow enough

sometimes they go unnoticed.

If they throw another link onto the chains of bondage one at a time many will in fact not notice. Such is the complacency today.

[Naam]

They might not be the reasons for the crisis but they are certainly a huge contributing factor that will exacerbate the crisis even further. The USA and Europe are examples of entitlement societies at their worst and with unemployment at staggering rates I believe what mccw’s article reminds us of is that that there will be a tipping point in the not too distant future where people will be unwilling or unable to pay enough taxes for governments to maintain social cohesion.

people who work don't have the option "unwilling to pay taxes" because taxes are deducted from their salaries/wages or added a indirect taxes on prices for goods and services. it goes without saying that people who are unable (as in cannot afford) to pay taxes are either unemployed or earn below an applicable tax bracket.

it also goes without saying that, irrespective of "crisis or no crisis", the entitlements for welfare/social nets in most (but not all) European countries cannot be maintained.

the argument "tipping point / taxes" is therefore irrelevant, notwithstanding the fact that more and more social unrest will happen. however, social unrest can neither create income for the unrestive nor generate revenue for the government. a zero sum game even if the masses "win" as they did in Algeria, Tunesia, Libya and Egypt where life goes on as it did before.

for the poor and/or unemployed citizens of the heavily indebted European countries the outlook is even worse even if the unrestive masses are able to force their governments to default on their debt which means no access to finance which is necessary for growth.

I think ‘ social unrest ‘ in USA when people can no longer get their stuff will be dramatically different to anything we saw in Algeria, Tunesia, Libya and Egypt

what will it achieve?

[Naam]

On the upcoming Catalan elections and vote for independence -

"The president of the Spanish Military Association, Colonel Leopoldo Snchez, suggested to Dutch television channel Niewsur that Spain has the right to declare a state of war over threats of separatism.

Catalan members of parliament condemned the rhetoric, calling it inconceivable,fascistic and war-time arguments."

-RT

storm in a tea cup. catalan voters have spoken in yesterday's election and applied a haircut to the "secession master" Señor Artur Mas.

Mas had asked the electorate to give him an absolute majority to lend weight to his Convergence and Union party's center-right policies, including the call for a referendum. Instead, voters have left him 18 votes short and in need to make a coalition to guarantee staying in power.

His party now has 50 seats in the 135-seat regional legislature.

[midas]

They might not be the reasons for the crisis but they are certainly a huge contributing factor that will exacerbate the crisis even further. The USA and Europe are examples of entitlement societies at their worst and with unemployment at staggering rates I believe what mccw’s article reminds us of is that that there will be a tipping point in the not too distant future where people will be unwilling or unable to pay enough taxes for governments to maintain social cohesion.

people who work don't have the option "unwilling to pay taxes" because taxes are deducted from their salaries/wages or added a indirect taxes on prices for goods and services. it goes without saying that people who are unable (as in cannot afford) to pay taxes are either unemployed or earn below an applicable tax bracket.

it also goes without saying that, irrespective of "crisis or no crisis", the entitlements for welfare/social nets in most (but not all) European countries cannot be maintained.

the argument "tipping point / taxes" is therefore irrelevant, notwithstanding the fact that more and more social unrest will happen. however, social unrest can neither create income for the unrestive nor generate revenue for the government. a zero sum game even if the masses "win" as they did in Algeria, Tunesia, Libya and Egypt where life goes on as it did before.

for the poor and/or unemployed citizens of the heavily indebted European countries the outlook is even worse even if the unrestive masses are able to force their governments to default on their debt which means no access to finance which is necessary for growth.

I think ‘ social unrest ‘ in USA when people can no longer get their stuff will be dramatically different to anything we saw in Algeria, Tunesia, Libya and Egypt

what will it achieve?

it doesnt have to acheive anything ?

Evidently it is part of people's psyche now that they must fight for whatever they want.....

In Roseville, California, a dispute over women’s undergarments at Victoria’s Secret led to a massive fistfight drawing in spectators of both genders, it seems.

http://www.theblaze....ctorias-secret/

Edited November 26, 2012 by midas

[midas]

Where are the states going to get enough money from ? Out of 50 there are only TWO financially solvent states in USA ( Montana and North Dakota ) with 10 insolvent and expected to file for bankruptcy. Even 42 municipalities have gone bankrupt.

Any finaicial "safety net " at any level of government these days can evaporate pretty quickly

Same place they always have.

But it needs to be restarted. Things like insane unions need to be ousted

Number need to be recalculated. Budgets need to be realistic & adhered to.

This will all happen one way or another.

There will be a collapse whether we want one or not.

This prolonging is only making it ultimately worse in size & pain to be dealt later.

But at the first steps of rebuilding this is where it will start.

It is too bad they could not see & react sooner but here we are now.

What Naam said is true many,most have no choice as their taxes are drawn from their

pay before they see it. This will lead to a bigger & bigger black market of services & goods.

The government may try to intercept this with a VAT or the cessation of physical currency all together. who knows?

Neither does anyone know how long it will take or if it will even be noticed initially. When things change slow enough

sometimes they go unnoticed.

If they throw another link onto the chains of bondage one at a time many will in fact not notice. Such is the complacency today.

I just can’t visualise anything other than a total breakdown just based on what we saw in the case of Katrina and Sandy? Even on a smaller scale like that while the rest of the country was functioning " normally " in those areas when one component in the system failed there was a chain reaction leading to the failure of all components and a complete break down of law and order.

[midas]

They might not be the reasons for the crisis but they are certainly a huge contributing factor that will exacerbate the crisis even further. The USA and Europe are examples of entitlement societies at their worst and with unemployment at staggering rates I believe what mccw’s article reminds us of is that that there will be a tipping point in the not too distant future where people will be unwilling or unable to pay enough taxes for governments to maintain social cohesion.

people who work don't have the option "unwilling to pay taxes" because taxes are deducted from their salaries/wages or added a indirect taxes on prices for goods and services. it goes without saying that people who are unable (as in cannot afford) to pay taxes are either unemployed or earn below an applicable tax bracket.

it also goes without saying that, irrespective of "crisis or no crisis", the entitlements for welfare/social nets in most (but not all) European countries cannot be maintained.

the argument "tipping point / taxes" is therefore irrelevant, notwithstanding the fact that more and more social unrest will happen. however, social unrest can neither create income for the unrestive nor generate revenue for the government. a zero sum game even if the masses "win" as they did in Algeria, Tunesia, Libya and Egypt where life goes on as it did before.

for the poor and/or unemployed citizens of the heavily indebted European countries the outlook is even worse even if the unrestive masses are able to force their governments to default on their debt which means no access to finance which is necessary for growth.

a zero sum game even if the masses "win" as they did in Algeria, Tunesia, Libya and Egypt where life goes on as it did before.

Yes and what happens if there are no more golden eggs if something happens to the goose ( or geese )............?

Egypt likely needs over $10 billion aid - senior EU official

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/9/13/worldupdates/2012-09-12T173309Z_1_BRE88B182_RTROPTT_0_UK-EU-EGYPT&sec=Worldupdates

[mccw]

On the upcoming Catalan elections and vote for independence -

"The president of the Spanish Military Association, Colonel Leopoldo Snchez, suggested to Dutch television channel Niewsur that Spain has the right to declare a state of war over threats of separatism.

Catalan members of parliament condemned the rhetoric, calling it inconceivable,fascistic and war-time arguments."

-RT

storm in a tea cup. catalan voters have spoken in yesterday's election and applied a haircut to the "secession master" Señor Artur Mas.

Mas had asked the electorate to give him an absolute majority to lend weight to his Convergence and Union party's center-right policies, including the call for a referendum. Instead, voters have left him 18 votes short and in need to make a coalition to guarantee staying in power.

His party now has 50 seats in the 135-seat regional legislature.

"With two other, smaller separatist parties taking a total of 16 seats, all four pro-independence parties are now dominating 60 per cent of Catalan Parliament.

Mas will now likely push forward with a promised referendum on independence from Spain, which he and his supporters see as a way to drag Catalonia out of a worsening financial crisis."

[Naam]

"With two other, smaller separatist parties taking a total of 16 seats, all four pro-independence parties are now dominating 60 per cent of Catalan Parliament.

Mas will now likely push forward with a promised referendum on independence from Spain, which he and his supporters see as a way to drag Catalonia out of a worsening financial crisis."

i realised later that the information depends what Cat newspaper one reads. but whatever the outcome is, a secession of Catalunya from Spain is nearly impossible. only recently the province was begging the central government in Madrid for cash (i posted that information in this thread) because of its high indebtedness.

last not least... if there is a secession it has no relevance to the "crisis" discussed here and an independent Catalunya has certainly no relevance or impact on Mr Mccw retiring in his self-supporting home located in Northern Thailand, on Mr Midas when harvesting his proverbial rice fields or on Mr Naam who considers Catalunya as remote as the north-western part of Manchuria.

[Naam]

some connection to "the crisis" is the often mentioned "fiscal cliff" potentially threatening the social peace in the Greatest Nation on Earth™. here some interesting comments:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/stop-calling-it-a-fiscal-cliff-2012-11-14

[mccw]

"With two other, smaller separatist parties taking a total of 16 seats, all four pro-independence parties are now dominating 60 per cent of Catalan Parliament.

Mas will now likely push forward with a promised referendum on independence from Spain, which he and his supporters see as a way to drag Catalonia out of a worsening financial crisis."

i realised later that the information depends what Cat newspaper one reads. but whatever the outcome is, a secession of Catalunya from Spain is nearly impossible. only recently the province was begging the central government in Madrid for cash (i posted that information in this thread) because of its high indebtedness.

last not least... if there is a secession it has no relevance to the "crisis" discussed here and an independent Catalunya has certainly no relevance or impact on Mr Mccw retiring in his self-supporting home located in Northern Thailand, on Mr Midas when harvesting his proverbial rice fields or on Mr Naam who considers Catalunya as remote as the north-western part of Manchuria.

They are one the most prosperous region but they must give huge amounts of tax to a central government who returns very little to their region. This region in Spain is really a micro reflection of the problem of larger EU. The issues of separatism and how it would work for Scotland and other areas is a serious question for EU and the nations involved- like, how would existing debt be divided or not; its already been said any new countries must re apply for EU membership. How about trade, currency, rights of movement, employment, property ownership etc etc. I expect independence movements will continue to gain momentum as this drags on and becomes ever more painful, as the populas look to localy find solutions due to the inadequacy and unrepresentative national and supranational politics. So it really has everything to do with the crises.

Spain without Catalonia tax receipts would be screwed. So this little remote region as you put it could bring down the whole EU.

Scotland is not so vital for UK I don't think. But the consequences of the events are worth debate and consideration.

[Naam]

They are one the most prosperous region but they must give huge amounts of tax to a central government who returns very little to their region.

local experts either agree or beg to differ. it all depends on their individual point of view. i haven't seen any tangible figures yet but will try to find out.

[jacnl2000]

They still have a "butter mountain"?

i think the Butterberg has melted since years.

Peaking EU beef- and butter-mountains of the 80s and 90s have disappeared. Subsidies no longer reinforce production. After these changes in landscapes one wonders whether or not most children still know where their milk is coming from?

(...snipped...)

Updated 26-11-2012.

Financial meltdown reaches pockets of farmers.

Especially today (26.11) and tomorrow (27.11) it shall become quite clear again in Brussels where milk is coming from:

Scaling down lifestyles of cows in a recessionary situation is not an easy job. Guess I would keep my most efficient super-cow for survival and be happy not to have specialized too much.

Milk quotas are to be fully lifted in 2015. Who survives?

I always wondered what's super-cow doing by the [high]way in ban Khao Yai:

[mccw]

Former Goldman banker to be governor of the Bank of England

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-20501990

The FSA will be dispanded and its powers given to the bank apparently also.

Fox guarding the chicken coop?

[mccw]

Interesting piece on the state of the welfare state

http://bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20431729

I hope the Silver lining of all this will be the abandonment of the handouts at hardworking people's expense.

[cheeryble]

I hope the Silver lining of all this will be the abandonment of the handouts at hardworking people's expense.

I wonder how you're going to take it as technology, IT, and robotics makes people increasingly redundant.....when, say, there is only work for 50% or less of the "working" population.

This is going to necessitate a very decisive sharing out of the world's bounty in some form or other. If properly done it might just be a wonderful step forward for mankind and a step back for drudgery.

The fact is this is already probably happening to some degree.

If you're against handouts then I hope you're not one of the unfortunate ones.....

ps: did you know the Vikings had an early form of social insurance? If you lost a boat the community would take on the work of replacing it to the extent of two thirds of the loss.

Edited November 26, 2012 by cheeryble

[mccw]

I hope the Silver lining of all this will be the abandonment of the handouts at hardworking people's expense.

I wonder how you're going to take it as technology, IT, and robotics makes people increasingly redundant.....when, say, there is only work for 50% or less of the "working" population.

This is going to necessitate a very decisive sharing out of the world's bounty in some form or other. If properly done it might just be a wonderful step forward for mankind and a step back for drudgery.

The fact is this is already probably happening to some degree.

If you're against handouts then I hope you're not one of the unfortunate ones.....

ps: did you know the Vikings had an early form of social insurance? If you lost a boat the community would take on the work of replacing it to the extent of two thirds of the loss.

I'm not pro starving people to death or anything. I'm anti idleness. There are always plenty of jobs to do and there always will be; its just a question of organisation. Why instead of cash handouts to sit idle the unemployed can not be set to work removing graffiti, sweeping streets or any number of other unskilled or semi skilled things? If cost is more a little then pay them proportionally less or better still just directly paid in something like "food stamps" redeemable against excess stock from the needed food security surpluses and waste from retail ie just past sell by. However; Without some kind of clean technology revolution this system is totally unsustainable in the long run anyway and is ultimately doomed no matter what tinkering takes place.

What needs to happen is a total rethink and conclusions drawn, not likely to be acceptable to religion or most modern societies. Things like population control and truly sustainable agriculture-industry-life. If robots can do lots of work that's great, maybe a small planetary population can live a good standard of living and have time to study and advance science and such. Maybe robots aren't needed or even desirable though and some kind of human labour driven agrarian economy would be better. If action were taken today theoretically it could be accomplished in 3-5 generations.

Maybe some "mad" scientist will release a virus and make the switch in 1 or maybe the earth will do it to us with in a couple. So we keep going as now until the seas are dead, the land exhausted, aquifers empty etc etc and the billions are forced to turn on and eat each other; Zombie apocalypse style!

[cheeryble]

. Maybe robots aren't needed or even desirable though and some kind of human labour driven agrarian economy would be better. !

With Mccw leading by example and volunteering to cut cane in the sweltering sun for the rest of your life........that's very generous.

Edited November 27, 2012 by cheeryble

[mccw]

http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-372-max-keiser/

Deals with a question I asked here a few pages back:

-what happens if investors dump western sovereign bonds? /popping of bond bubble?

Max seems to think boom go interest rates and Armageddon for the home owners / everyone in debt ie mostly everyone!

But what I see happening now "50% of debt currently bought by BoE" would just step in / continue to maintain super low rates since they already know what the result would be. The collapse would be in the value of the currencies on the fx markets and bang goes up imported food, energy, petrol etc, PMs

The Big Bang would be when china announces the gold backed Yuan or many another possible trigger.

Or not; just a steady march on to 100% debt monetization and nothing too much happens? Would seem incredible if so.

[Naam]

as expected... BYE BYE BASEL III

http://derivative-ne...sche-bank-2763/

see you later Basel III

FRANKFURT, Nov 26 (Reuters) - Germany's BdB bank association has urged European regulators to delay new Basel III bank capital rules until 2014, arguing European banks would be at a competitive disadvantage if they introduced the rules before U.S. rivals.

"The introduction of Basel III in the European Union should be as closely timed as possible with the U.S. and in no way should it occur before the start of 2014," BdB president Andreas Schmitz said on Monday.

"Because a date for introduction by American banks cannot be foreseen, Europe should seek to avoid a competitive disadvantage for domestic institutions," Schmitz added.

The European Banking Federation last week wrote to EU regulation commissioner Michel Barnier to ask for a delay of the introduction of Basel III to 2014 from a planned start date of January 2013.

The BdB represents Germany's private-sector banks, including the country's top two lenders, Deutsche Bank and Commerzbank.

Germany's Finance Ministry on Monday said it expected only minimal delays to the introduction of Basel III in the European Union despite the fact U.S. regulators cast doubt on the timeframe due to a flood of industry comments on the proposals.

The Basel III bank rules are the world's regulatory response to the 2007-09 financial crisis and would force banks to triple the amount of capital they hold in a bid to avoid future taxpayer bailouts.

Responding to the banks, the European Commission said it would seek a coordinated approach with the United States but added it was important to wrap up internal European discussion of the rules, so that they could start being applied in 2013.

BdB also said it had elected Deutsche Bank co-chief executive Juergen Fitschen to become chief lobbyist for the association from April 15.

http://uk.reuters.co...E8MQ59320121126

[Mosha]

BBC Business News, reported that even taking into account last years floods. The Thai economy grew by 0.1% , an interest rate cut may be on the cards.

[Mosha]

BBC Business News, reported that even taking into account last years floods. The Thai economy grew by 0.1% , an interest rate cut may be on the cards.

Edit sorry that is 0.5%