Financial Crisis

[Naam]

siamamerican

Really! This nonsense is still unending. A few on this forum have
an unfathomable gift of forecasting the opposite of what transpires.
America's personal wealth has almost completely recovered and the
deficits are starting to drop as a percentage of GDP.

the nonsense is indeed unending especially when economic ignorants

are accepting the often spread BS that debt can be serviced with GDP.

replacing a smart bomb dropped on Baghdad generates GDP and the

same applies to the replacement of a Hellfire rocket, fired from a drone

and killing a dozen Afghani civilians but does not reduce debt.

debt service, namely interest and redemption, can only be done with

revenue. google "revenue" to obtain more information.

[midas]

In New Zealand, you may as well bury your money under the ground. Because there is no
incentive to keep it in the bank ?

Deposits are historically not guaranteed in New Zealand, though they were between 2008 and 2011 and the taxpayer incurred hefty losses over the failure of South Canterbury Finance.

and their excuse is .................

"Deposit insurance is widely used in Europe, including Cyprus, but hasn't prevented banking failures, as we saw during the global financial crisis." ........so no need to bother then ???

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10873059

Fraud charges involving South Canterbury Finance thought to constitute New Zealand's largest fraud case.

The $1.7 billion fraud charges involving South Canterbury Finance are expected to allege the company duped Treasury when it applied for admission to the Crown retail deposit guarantee scheme, the Serious Fraud Office has indicated.

http://www.odt.co.nz/source/apnz/190137/scf-charges-focus-guarantee-scheme

Edited April 15, 2013 by midas

[yoshiwara]

Really! This nonsense is still unending. A few on this forum have an unfathomable gift of forecasting the opposite of what transpires. America's personal wealth has almost completely recovered and the deficits are starting to drop as a percentage of GDP. Get a grip, the world is going to be just fine and those that realize this will make lots of money while the doomers perverted dream of Armageddon will become more of a joke. The internet has given a voice to nutters that get ridiculed in real life's non internet debates.

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination claiming the world isn't currently confronting financial and societal problems. Do the doomers here have any historical perspective or has life just past you by with little recollection. Humans as a whole, if given the opportunity, will spend beyond their means which has created the 1000's of bubbles throughout history.

As I stated back in December 2008, the USA will recover and Europe will take a little longer. I was laughed at on this forum because for some irrational reasons, Europeans thought that the excessive debt and the housing bubble were an American phenomenon. I was told I didn't understand the EU banking system and its inherent strength. Lots of savvy investors here

Where has "Flying" disappeared to? Probably scampered back to America to re-enter the construction industry and hoping those evil banks loosen their lending standards so people have money to inflate the value of homes. Rinse and repeat!

Midas, how about expressing a simplistic original thought. Any thought will do. We know you can't do it. Intellectually challenge links to articles of fringe self appointed economists will be your next move.

To doomers - stop being turds and pretending you know your arse from your noggin.

The people of Planet Eventually will always be with us. There is no escape.

[siamamerican]

siamamerican

Really! This nonsense is still unending. A few on this forum have

an unfathomable gift of forecasting the opposite of what transpires.

America's personal wealth has almost completely recovered and the

deficits are starting to drop as a percentage of GDP.

the nonsense is indeed unending especially when economic ignorants

are accepting the often spread BS that debt can be serviced with GDP.

replacing a smart bomb dropped on Baghdad generates GDP and the

same applies to the replacement of a Hellfire rocket, fired from a drone

and killing a dozen Afghani civilians but does not reduce debt.

debt service, namely interest and redemption, can only be done with

revenue. google "revenue" to obtain more information.

Nam the self appointed financial guru again spouting his superior knowledge. At least you didn't brag about your personal wealth which I presume was not intended.

Oh yes, the GDP rant yet again. Well genius it is far from meaningless for those that can look beyond its deficiencies which obviously you struggle with to no end. Why is it that when GDP numbers have been a a great reflection of a countries economy? I guess we could tally how much a country poops in a given year as a basis of economic health.

Just because you post on this forum more than any other means nothing or maybe it does. Midas has also found an audience here and you both probably have much in common. Get a real life dude! Live is too short to tell people you will never meet how cool and rich you are and how much money the wife spends.

Hey Midas, here is a link you might enjoy.

http://modernsurvivalblog.com/current-events-economics-politics/2013-will-debt-lead-to-world-war/

[mccw]

Siam American

Y you reply to the rubbish but not answer my reasoned response?

I was hoping for a bit of sensible debate on here for a change.

[mccw]

On a positive side. Particularly related to some UK articles I read today. Net UK populations wealth (private assets after subtracting debts) is now over 7trillion £s for the first time and 40% of all property sales are made in cash. Matching up this reality with the debt ballon government spending and pound creation is somewhat perplexing. Maybe the same / similar thing in USA is confusing you also?

My thinking is a large part of this wealth is due to the inflated prices due to government support of stock and housing prices. But still 40% of home sales are cash purchased. This indicates a lot of secure cashed up value at what ever price the market dictates. So all is not lost and there is a stable base to build on if only the government would act in the nations interests, accept the pain n tell people strait "we need to live with in our means and build a sustainable economy". The risks of the money printing and stacking the ever higher debt mountain is far more dangerous than a period of contraction and restructuring. But they have chosen the path we are on and its bound to end badly, its practically a math mathematical certainty.

[Naam]

siamamerican

Really! This nonsense is still unending. A few on this forum have

an unfathomable gift of forecasting the opposite of what transpires.

America's personal wealth has almost completely recovered and the

deficits are starting to drop as a percentage of GDP.

the nonsense is indeed unending especially when economic ignorants

are accepting the often spread BS that debt can be serviced with GDP.

replacing a smart bomb dropped on Baghdad generates GDP and the

same applies to the replacement of a Hellfire rocket, fired from a drone

and killing a dozen Afghani civilians but does not reduce debt.

debt service, namely interest and redemption, can only be done with

revenue. google "revenue" to obtain more information.

Nam the self appointed financial guru again spouting his superior knowledge. At least you didn't brag about your personal wealth which I presume was not intended.

Oh yes, the GDP rant yet again. Well genius it is far from meaningless for those that can look beyond its deficiencies which obviously you struggle with to no end. Why is it that when GDP numbers have been a a great reflection of a countries economy? I guess we could tally how much a country poops in a given year as a basis of economic health.

Just because you post on this forum more than any other means nothing or maybe it does. Midas has also found an audience here and you both probably have much in common. Get a real life dude! Live is too short to tell people you will never meet how cool and rich you are and how much money the wife spends.

Hey Midas, here is a link you might enjoy.

http://modernsurvivalblog.com/current-events-economics-politics/2013-will-debt-lead-to-world-war/

the usual yada yada yakety-yak personal attack of a loser without any shame who has no valid arguments to challenge crystal clear facts.

reminds of some characteristics the Right Honourable SiamAmerican displayed a few years ago in this forum.

-somebody opened a thread with the topic "How Much Do You Pay For Electricity Per Month?"

-quite a number of people participated.

-after i answered the question and posted that there are months when my bill exceeds 11,000 Baht by far he came up with a tirade "flaunting wealth and bragging".

well my good man... it so happened i got my electricity bill today. it says:

meter reading 16/03/56..........12,424

meter reading 15/04/56.........16,286

kilowatts used..........................3,862

energy surcharge.....................2,009

vat 7%.....................................1,191

-------------------------------------------------

total........................................18,214 (addition difference Satang not considered)

=============================

eat your heart out

[mccw]

Do you live in a 10 room house and run aircon in every room 24/7 naam Or maybe you have an exceedingly large wine collection in a temperature controlled warehouse next door? Haha

[Naam]

Do you live in a 10 room house and run aircon in every room 24/7 naam Or maybe you have an exceedingly large wine collection in a temperature controlled warehouse next door? Haha

it's my dogs Mccw. they want it cool. whenever i turn my back they are after the aircon remotes.

[midas]

Really! This nonsense is still unending. A few on this forum have an unfathomable gift of forecasting the opposite of what transpires. America's personal wealth has almost completely recoveredand the deficits are starting to drop as a percentage of GDP. Get a grip, the world is going to be just fine and those that realize this will make lots of money while the doomers perverted dream of Armageddon will become more of a joke. The internet has given a voice to nutters that get ridiculed in real life's non internet debates.

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination claiming the world isn't currently confronting financial and societal problems. Do the doomers here have any historical perspective or has life just past you by with little recollection. Humans as a whole, if given the opportunity, will spend beyond their means which has created the 1000's of bubbles throughout history.

As I stated back in December 2008, the USA will recover and Europe will take a little longer. I was laughed at on this forum because for some irrational reasons, Europeans thought that the excessive debt and the housing bubble were an American phenomenon. I was told I didn't understand the EU banking system and its inherent strength. Lots of savvy investors here

Where has "Flying" disappeared to? Probably scampered back to America to re-enter the construction industry and hoping those evil banks loosen their lending standards so people have money to inflate the value of homes. Rinse and repeat!

Midas, how about expressing a simplistic original thought. Any thought will do. We know you can't do it. Intellectually challenge links to articles of fringe self appointed economists will be your next move.

To doomers - stop being turds and pretending you know your arse from your noggin.

siamamerican you make some very sweeping remarks which I have to say I don't agree with?

For example, you said “ America's personal wealth has almost completely recovered “.?

So where is it? “ Show me the money “

Americans don't seem to have very much at all in savings and 1 in 4 have NO savings

More Than 25% of Americans Have No Emergency Savings

http://www.newsmax.com/StreetTalk/Survey-Americans-Emergency-Savings/2012/06/25/id/443355

Nearly Half Of Americans Have Less Than $500 In Savings

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/22/americans-savings-500_n_2003285.html

And if your comment is based on the pumping up of the stock market and you are claiming their 401k's have recovered , they are already tapping into that as well …..

More Americans raiding 401(k)s to pay the bills

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/more-americans-raiding-401-k-s-pay-bills-1B7989986

Edited April 15, 2013 by midas

[manarak]

go open a new thread about the derivatives!

here is an interesting article:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/04/15/uk-france-bonds-idUKBRE93E0KL20130415

I think the EUR stands and falls with France.

[muchogra]

I have both disdains and praises for the die-hards Then, I realize life is short! Stubbondness gets one nowhere| All investments lie in one single rule - The Timing!

I can't offer you much advice except that people talk history and neglect wha's at hand - that's timing! For these people, they are no investors to me. Sorry! But, of course, if you are independently rich and risk youself I hope your fruits coe to ripe before you hit the bucket for being persistent!

[mccw]

Soros is predicting a recession in Germany

Chese growth at 7.7 rather than 7.9 is nothing in my opinion that is still strong

""""Chinas economic growth has lost momentum, its GDP expanded 7.7% in the first quarter, missing the 7.9% benchmark of the previous quarter, a sobering reality that global recovery is slowing.

China has been coined by America as an economic sleeping giant: a power that will suddenly awake at any moment and supersede the US as the worlds biggest economy.

But the numbers are telling a different story. According to the data from the National Bureau of Statistics in Beijing, the GDP missed its forecast, an indicator that even China isnt immune to global recession.

The Shanghai Composite Index has fallen on the GDP news and is down 10% from an early February high. It fell 1.1% on Monday down to 2,181.94 at market close, the lowest level since December 24.

The disappointing data shows the recovery is much weaker and bumpier than expected, dragged down by soft domestic demand, Zhu Haibin, chief China economist at JPMorgan in Hong Kong, told Bloomberg.

In a speech in Frankfurt last week, billionaire investor George Soros warned that Germany is heading for a recession of its own making, which Soros predicts will hit in September.

The IMF has trimmed its forecast for US growth, predicting it will only expand 1.7% instead of the forecasted 2%, according to a draft of the World Economic Outlook obtained by Bloomberg.

The Tiger Index (Tracking Indexes for the Global Economic Recovery) a sort of pulse rating of the global financial condition,has deemed the economy "unable to achieve lift-off and facing the risk of stalling", according Professor Eswar Prasad, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution."""- rt app

[mccw]

Garage has some new friends in Germany?

"""A new political party has been formed in Germany with the sole aim to get the country out of the Euro amid the rising economic burden that Germans share to keep the currency afloat in wake of the ongoing financial crisis in the bloc.

Some 1500 delegates from the Alternative for Germany Party (AfD) met in Berlin on Sunday to officially launch the organization, openly calling for orderly dissolution of the euro. AfD also asks for the return of some sovereignty from the EU to the member states, as well as the introduction of Swiss-style referendums at the federal level.

The euro is dead. What we do right now is we put it under special surgery, we give it infusions. But actually it is already dead, but our politicians havent recognized that yet , AfD member Paul Hampel told RT.

The party created by economists and professors dissatisfied with the euro now boasts 7,500 members. It aims to debut in Septembers general elections and challenge Chancellor Merkels policies.

We find it ridiculous that our Federal Chancellor tries to turn the lovely people of Greece, Italy and France into Prussians. She will never manage to do that. It will not work and it will bring disunity instead of unity in Europe , Christof Heimann of AfD said."""

-rt app

[lannarebirth]

Interesting day in the markets. You can see money flowing out of lots of speculative assets but you can't really see anyplace it is going.

[Naam]

Interesting day in the markets. You can see money flowing out of lots of speculative assets but you can't really see anyplace it is going.

i have seen quite some movements (sovereign bonds) from one high/risk high/yield asset (Venezuela) into another hig/risk high/yield asset (Argentina).

reason: Maduro wins Venezuela elections with a tiny margin. contender Capriles not amused and shouts "election fraud!"

[yoshiwara]

Interesting day in the markets. You can see money flowing out of lots of speculative assets but you can't really see anyplace it is going.

i have seen quite some movements (sovereign bonds) from one high/risk high/yield asset (Venezuela) into another hig/risk high/yield asset (Argentina).

reason: Maduro wins Venezuela elections with a tiny margin. contender Capriles not amused and shouts "election fraud!"

Venezuela Vs Argentina is a bit like midas Vs mccw Edited April 16, 2013 by yoshiwara

[Naam]

Interesting day in the markets. You can see money flowing out of lots of speculative assets but you can't really see anyplace it is going.

i have seen quite some movements (sovereign bonds) from one high/risk high/yield asset (Venezuela) into another hig/risk high/yield asset (Argentina).

reason: Maduro wins Venezuela elections with a tiny margin. contender Capriles not amused and shouts "election fraud!"

Venezuela Vs Argentina is a bit like midas Vs mccw

but a much more profitable result.

[midas]

Interesting day in the markets. You can see money flowing out of lots of speculative assets but you can't really see anyplace it is going.

i have seen quite some movements (sovereign bonds) from one high/risk high/yield asset (Venezuela) into another hig/risk high/yield asset (Argentina).

reason: Maduro wins Venezuela elections with a tiny margin. contender Capriles not amused and shouts "election fraud!"

Venezuela Vs Argentina is a bit like midas Vs mccwVenezuela Vs Argentina is a bit like Yoshiwara Vs Siamamerican Edited April 16, 2013 by midas

[mccw]

Two things to be taken from below

First that its another example of corporate lobby power over common sense etc

Second, that the powers that be are so desparate to keep inflation down they are prepared to risk the nations health in order to achieve higher yields

Mice the %s of each reasoning how you like, but they are both plain.

""""The claims that There is no difference between GMO corn and NON Gmo corn are false, says Honeycutt, who adds she was floored after reading the study.

According to the analysis, GMO corn tested by Profit Pro contains a number of elements absent from traditional cord, including chlorides, formaldehyde and glyphosate. While those elements dont appear naturally in corn, they were present in GMO samples to the tune of 60 ppm, 200pm and 13 ppm, respectively.

Honecutt says that the United States Environmental Protection Agency (FDA) mandates that the level of glyphosate in American drinking water not exceed 0.7 ppm and adds that organ damage in some animals has been linked to glyphosate exposure exceeding 0.1 ppm.

Glyphosate is a strong organic phosphate chelator that immobilizes positively charged minerals such as manganese, cobalt, iron, zinc [and] copper, Dr. Don Huber attested during a separate GMO study recently released, adding that those elements are essential for normal physiological functions in soils, plants and animals.

Glyphosate draws out the vital nutrients of living things and GMO corn is covered with it, adds Honeycutt, who notes that the nutritional benefits rampant in natural corn are almost entirely removed from lab-made seeds: in the samples used during the study, non-GMO corn is alleged to have 437-times the amount of calcium in genetically modified versions, and 56- and 7-times the level of magnesium and manganese, respectively.

These studies come on the heels of a recent decision on Capitol Hill to approve an annual agriculture appropriations bill, even though a provision within the act contained a rider that frees GMO corporations such as the multi-billion-dollar Monsanto Company from liability. The so-called Monsanto Protection Act, written by a lawmaker that has lobbied for the agra-giant, says biotech companies wont need federal approval to test and plant GMO-crops, even if health risks are unknown.

The provision would strip federal courts of the authority to halt the sale and planting of an illegal, potentially hazardous GE crop while the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) assesses those potential hazards, reads a letter to the House of Representatives that was delivered to Congress last month with the signatures of dozens of food businesses and retailers, as well as interest groups and agencies representing family farmers. Further, it would compel USDA to allow continued planting of that same crop upon request, even if in the course of its assessment the Department finds that it poses previously unrecognized risks."""

-rt app

[yoshiwara]

Two things to be taken from below

First that its another example of corporate lobby power over common sense etc

Second, that the powers that be are so desparate to keep inflation down they are prepared to risk the nations health in order to achieve higher yields

Mice the %s of each reasoning how you like, but they are both plain.

""""The claims that There is no difference between GMO corn and NON Gmo corn are false, says Honeycutt, who adds she was floored after reading the study.

According to the analysis, GMO corn tested by Profit Pro contains a number of elements absent from traditional cord, including chlorides, formaldehyde and glyphosate. While those elements dont appear naturally in corn, they were present in GMO samples to the tune of 60 ppm, 200pm and 13 ppm, respectively.

Honecutt says that the United States Environmental Protection Agency (FDA) mandates that the level of glyphosate in American drinking water not exceed 0.7 ppm and adds that organ damage in some animals has been linked to glyphosate exposure exceeding 0.1 ppm.

Glyphosate is a strong organic phosphate chelator that immobilizes positively charged minerals such as manganese, cobalt, iron, zinc [and] copper, Dr. Don Huber attested during a separate GMO study recently released, adding that those elements are essential for normal physiological functions in soils, plants and animals.

Glyphosate draws out the vital nutrients of living things and GMO corn is covered with it, adds Honeycutt, who notes that the nutritional benefits rampant in natural corn are almost entirely removed from lab-made seeds: in the samples used during the study, non-GMO corn is alleged to have 437-times the amount of calcium in genetically modified versions, and 56- and 7-times the level of magnesium and manganese, respectively.

These studies come on the heels of a recent decision on Capitol Hill to approve an annual agriculture appropriations bill, even though a provision within the act contained a rider that frees GMO corporations such as the multi-billion-dollar Monsanto Company from liability. The so-called Monsanto Protection Act, written by a lawmaker that has lobbied for the agra-giant, says biotech companies wont need federal approval to test and plant GMO-crops, even if health risks are unknown.

The provision would strip federal courts of the authority to halt the sale and planting of an illegal, potentially hazardous GE crop while the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) assesses those potential hazards, reads a letter to the House of Representatives that was delivered to Congress last month with the signatures of dozens of food businesses and retailers, as well as interest groups and agencies representing family farmers. Further, it would compel USDA to allow continued planting of that same crop upon request, even if in the course of its assessment the Department finds that it poses previously unrecognized risks."""

-rt app

After reading 'Glyphosate draws out the vital nutrients of living things' I came down with a serious attack of MEGO.

[mccw]

A sign of where growth is still to coming

""Digger manufacturer JCB has defied a slump in the global construction market to record the highest-ever profit in its 67-year history.

The family-owned company saw its 2012 earnings rise to £365m on a turnover which remained virtually unchanged from the previous year at £2.7bn.

Although the Staffordshire-based manufacturer experienced weak construction equipment sales in some areas of the world, it saw business in Africa double and registered growth of 12% in the Middle East."""

-sky news app

[yoshiwara]

A sign of where growth is still to coming

""Digger manufacturer JCB has defied a slump in the global construction market to record the highest-ever profit in its 67-year history.

The family-owned company saw its 2012 earnings rise to £365m on a turnover which remained virtually unchanged from the previous year at £2.7bn.

Although the Staffordshire-based manufacturer experienced weak construction equipment sales in some areas of the world, it saw business in Africa double and registered growth of 12% in the Middle East."""

-sky news app

Yes, and I read the WSJ which is owned by the Dirty Digger. Keep the great info coming.

[mccw]

Banksters is really an apt word indeed:

""""Italian police are holding around $2.3 billion destined for the Japanese bank Nomura because its former European branch chief is being investigated over an alleged derivatives fraud with the Italian lender Monte dei Paschi.

The prosecutor's office in Siena, the hometown of the worlds oldest bank Monte dei Paschi, ordered the freezing of "a total of around 1.8 billion euros from Nomura International, AFP reports.

Former head of Nomura for Europe, Middle East and Africa Sadeq Sayeed as well as Monte dei Paschis managing director for fixed income sales Raffaele Ricci are under investigation.

The prosecutor's office said Sayeed and Ricci were suspected of "gravely obstructing" the activities of supervisory authorities and putting out "false statements".

Prosecutors also seized a total of 14.4 million euros from three former managers of the troubled Italian bank, who are also under investigation.

Italy's third biggest bank has been rocked by the scandal over the non-transparent derivatives connected to the costly 2007 acquisition of its rival Banca Antonveneta. The involvement of Nomura is being investigated.

Last month, David Rossi a spokesman of Monte Paschi di Siena was found dead at the bank's Siena headquarters after apparently committing suicide."""""

-RT app

[mccw]

It's not just gold down but all commodities. Doesn't that signal a failure in belief of the inflation story; of the growth story? If economy is about to pick up and recovery for real then surely commodities and energy etc should be going up not crashing like a recessions just around the corner! If the stock market takes the Q that's what I means then rough ride and self fulfilling no? Liquids dry up.

Oops unintended concequences of the manipulators move?

[manarak]

It's not just gold down but all commodities. Doesn't that signal a failure in belief of the inflation story; of the growth story? If economy is about to pick up and recovery for real then surely commodities and energy etc should be going up not crashing like a recessions just around the corner! If the stock market takes the Q that's what I means then rough ride and self fulfilling no? Liquids dry up.

Oops unintended concequences of the manipulators move?

Except for the last line of your post you are pretty much spot on.

The seventies knew the period of stagflation, high inflation with no economic growth, causing in 1980 a spike in gold prices before it slumped down together with other commodities and started a period of recession in the eighties.

We might be in for a secondary depression/recession, but without much inflation, because the central banks have learned their lesson on this one.

Edited April 16, 2013 by manarak

[midas]

Here's an interesting case being pursued by an 18 year old Irish guy. Good on him !

On 21st of January Thomas Darcy won his appeal against Allied Irish Bank and was directed by an Irish Judge ( Judge Dunne ) to report to the matter to the police in Ireland on the basis that the bank had committed numerous criminal Acts in obtaining their Banking licence and to ” bring criminal charges against the AIB plc and its Directors and agents for the breaches and violations of the laws of Ireland.”

http://americankabuki.blogspot.com/2013/04/allegations-of-big-irish-banks.html

Edited April 17, 2013 by midas

[midas]

And it sounds like once again, the Irish banking system is on shaky grounds

“Reggie Middleton uncovers extremely unnerving omissions, misrepresentations and what appears to many lay persons as outright fraud in the Irish banking system “

Edited April 17, 2013 by midas

[mccw]

It's not just gold down but all commodities. Doesn't that signal a failure in belief of the inflation story; of the growth story? If economy is about to pick up and recovery for real then surely commodities and energy etc should be going up not crashing like a recessions just around the corner! If the stock market takes the Q that's what I means then rough ride and self fulfilling no? Liquids dry up.

Oops unintended concequences of the manipulators move?

Except for the last line of your post you are pretty much spot on.

The seventies knew the period of stagflation, high inflation with no economic growth, causing in 1980 a spike in gold prices before it slumped down together with other commodities and started a period of recession in the eighties.

We might be in for a secondary depression/recession, but without much inflation, because the central banks have learned their lesson on this one.

What do you mean "the central banks have learned thier lesson"?

[midas]

Feds charge 24 IRS workers in TN with theft

Workers accused of lying to get unemployment benefits, welfare, food stamps, housing vouchers

" First it was the families of dead people and state employees. Now, authorities say Internal Revenue Service employees in Tennessee were stealing unemployment and other benefits while fully employed.

On Thursday, 13 of those employees were indicted on federal charges that they lied to get unemployment, food stamps, welfare and housing vouchers. An additional 11 have been indicted on state charges of theft greater than $1,000."

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20130417/NEWS03/304180030/24-former-current-IRS-employees-charged-benefit-fraud-case?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News&nclick_check=1