Financial Crisis

[12DrinkMore]

12, what do you make of this kind of " disconnect " between the so called signs of recovery :-

No disconnect.

"Rightmove" have a vested interest in pushing the housing market, they represent "20,000 estate agents" (surely far too many?). But they are only talking about "asking prices", a totally meaningless number. The only figure of interest is the actual selling price. And if you read their report

http://miranda.hemscott.com/static/cms/5/2...286/2118458.pdf

They make a couple of conflicting statements, but first they state the average asking price is 227,441 Quid, which is WAY WAY above the 160,000 average house price that other sources quote.

New sellers push up asking prices by 2.4%, driven by a mixture of ambition, optimism and necessity

So they are only referring to NEW sellers, now how about this enlightening sentences just beneath the above one?

Prospective buyers with nothing to sell are increasingly active, encouraged by 59,072 properties reducing asking prices by 2% or more in the last 4 weeks, with an average reduction of 6.8%

WELL!!! What can I say, an AVERAGE reduction to SELL the property of 6.8% in just FOUR weeks. BLOODY hel_l! Now who says that prices aren't in for more falls???? I think we are being a bit mislead by the Bloomberg headline.

No comment on the building society downgrade, the whole financial industry has been downgraded it is surely only a matter of time before the UK is downgraded. It is possibly only due to a lot of behind the scenes begging by Darling/Brown/King that UK debt has not already been downgraded.

And to repeat what we already know, the report mentions the "Equity Releasers", who are now unable to sell.

‘Equity releasers’ who habitually withdrew cash during the 2001-2008 re-mortgage spree. Encouraged by cheap and easy credit and rising property values they funded their lifestyles by regular re-mortgaging and equity release. Figures from the Council of Mortgage Lenders show that in the eight years from 2001 to 2008, the total value of remortgages increased by 460% compared with the period from 1993 to 2000. With falling prices, many will now have been left

without enough equity to fund a move

SOM NUM NA!!!

BTW I have just sent the following email to the author of the Bloomberg report...

>>>

I am a little perturbed by the inaccurate report that you posted on the well respected Bloomberg site.

If you read the actual report that Rightmove published

http://miranda.hemscott.com/static/cms/5/2...286/2118458.pdf

Then you will see that it is only a few optimistic, ambitious and needy (not my words, they are in the report) NEW sellers that have pushed up ASKING prices.

But just read a few lines down and then you will come across the following

"Prospective buyers with nothing to sell are increasingly active, encouraged by 59,072 properties reducing asking prices by 2% or more in the last 4 weeks, with an average reduction of 6.8%"

So how about THAT for a real headline?

"UK Home Sellers reduced average price by 6.8% in four weeks to encourage buyers"????????

Slightly different, eh?

>>quote

I wonder if she will change the report?

Edited May 19, 2009 by 12DrinkMore

[12DrinkMore]

Bit corny, but anyway...

How the Stimulus Plan works

Three contractors are bidding to fix a broken fence at the White House.

One is from Chicago, another is from Tennessee, and the third is from Minnesota. All three go with a White House official to examine the fence.

The Minnesota contractor takes out a tape measure and does some measuring, then works some figures with a pencil.

"Well," he says, "I figure the job will run about $900: $400 for materials, $400 for my crew and $100 profit for me.

"The Tennessee contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then says, "I can do this job for $700: $300 for materials, $300 for my crew and $100 profit for me."

The Chicago contractor doesn't measure or figure, but leans over to the WhiteHouse official and whispers, "$2,700."

The official, incredulous, says, "You didn't even measure like the other guys! How did you come up with such a high figure?"

The Chicago contractor whispers back, "$1000 for me, $1000 for you, and we hire the guy from Tennessee to fix the fence.

"Done!" replies the government official.

And that, my friends, is how the new stimulus plan will work.

But my problem is.... who is the guy from Tennessee? :D

[flying]

Bit corny, but anyway...

I like it

[Abrak]

Going back to the argument about biflaton - I fully with basic concept but still dont understand why it didnt really seem to be a sensible strategy in the great drepression.

I would also offer some following facts for consideration.

First is a chart showing wheat against gold...

(Feel free to read it as you wish)

Next when examining wheat prices you need to consider other variables.

1) Meat consumption - it takes 5-7 pounds of wheat to generate one pound of beef. However, meat consumption is not falling and never fell during the drepression - it actually increased as it is doing now.

2) Stocks of grain have halved over the last 20 years. Land devoted to production has remained constant but increasing yields have kept production per capita roughly constant.

3) Prices are very tied to oil dues principally to fertilizer demand. Concentration of farming also means that the food that reaches your table needs to travel much further than before (it is estimated that the food the ave. american eats for breafast lunch and tea has travelled roughly 37,000 miles larger than the circumference of the earth.)

Apologies to organics or where these stats dont apply but you are statistically insignificant at present.

All this makes a pretty convincing argument to be say buying wheat on a 5 year view but I cant help but think I am missing something especially in view of depression stats.

[12DrinkMore]

Here we go, the call for the Fed to fire up inflation to clear the debts.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

“I’m advocating 6 percent inflation for at least a couple of years,” says Rogoff, 56, who’s now a professor at Harvard University. “It would ameliorate the debt bomb and help us work through the deleveraging process.”

And this would lead to the next issue

Given the Fed’s inability to cut rates further, Mankiw says the central bank should pledge to produce “significant” inflation. That would put the real, inflation-adjusted interest rate -- the cost of borrowing minus the rate of inflation -- deep into negative territory, even though the nominal rate would still be zero.

If Americans were convinced of the Fed’s commitment, they’d buy and borrow more now, he says.

Which would presumably send us back to square one, and another debt created crisis. What goes around comes around, and so maybe our Leaders are intent on sending us into a ten year cycle of boom & bust.

For the Americans there is one piece of legislation that is long overdue, and that is to stop people simply being able to hand back the keys and walk away from negative equity in their houses. It should surely be made possible to claim on all their assets and earnings, or have them made bankrupt. I suspect this is a major factor in the subprime mess, the banks lent the money realising the risk, but then "securitised" it and sold the can of worms off to some other sucker.

But are our Leaders still relying on the stupidity of the population to fuel another boom? It seems like this is very possibly the case. Instead of encouraging people to pay off debts, they want another credit driven consumer frenzy, with people scrambling to borrow and spend today before the price goes up. Well really, how about if we consumers don't play the game? Maybe the great CONSUMER is not going to consume on debt. Maybe he is fed up with working all hours just to pay off the interest payments, basically a debt slave, a modern day serf to the wealthy, allowing the Leaders to reap massive profits.

There are signs that this is happening, and that people are paying down debt. Savings are increasing. I hope that the populations are now realising that the government is not going to provide pensions, the company pension schemes are abused and essentially bankrupt anyway, and it is now down to everybody to look after themselves. Maybe with the internet people are now better able to educate themselves and see alternatives, rather than rely on the drivel that we are spoon fed through the press and TV.

As Alex remarked, my initial rant against the banks and the politicians has evolved into 2,000 posts. Amazing. I must admit that I have occasionally gone well over the top, as my frustration level increased, seeing the way these dam_n politicians behave, there are a couple of posts I wish I hadn't made, but they are in the past. But I never expected the thread to carry on for so long. Thanks to all those who have made a positive contribution, look forward to many more.

Edited May 19, 2009 by 12DrinkMore

[Abrak]

12D,

Rather questioning your own thinking perhaps you should think of it this way.

The US consumer took on a 108% MPC between 2000 and 2008. Now logically this could only be based the theory that he wouldnt have to repay the resulting debt in real terms. On that basis the underlying assumption must be that the banks were stupid to lend those loans.

Now just because you didnt do something because it required the assumption of the inherent stupidity of the other party doesnt make you wrong = in fact when you do deals on the basis that the other person is a fool you often find out the opposite.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Abrak

[12DrinkMore]

Hi,

I must admit that I don't quite understand what you are trying to argue.

The US consumer took on a 108% MPC between 2000 and 2008. Now logically this could only be based the theory that he wouldnt have to repay the resulting debt in real terms. On that basis the underlying assumption must be that the banks were stupid to lend those loans.

Well yes, assuming that is the figure and we are referring to the marginal private cost of buying some stuff, maybe a house or car, I agree that the banks were stupid in in lending the loans. Particularly when the so called assets were over priced and the consumer unlikely to be able to afford to pay off the debt. What exactly went through the brain of the consumer as he eagerly signed on the dotted line, it is difficult to say. Presumably along the lines

I am living the dream and can afford it because the nice finance company thinks I can

Unfortunately I have this opinion based on decades of observation that people will take what they can get, and so I believe that the responsibility of lending money lies with the lender to determine that the borrower can afford it and has the security against the loan. That's the only way it works. And, in the financial crisis we are discussing, the lenders were utterly negligent in this, particularly because the money they were lending out was not even theirs, but OURS, and we had lent it to these "respectable and responsible" organisations with the conviction that they were, indeed, "respectable and responsible". And this has been shown not to be the case.

Now just because you didnt do something because it required the assumption of the inherent stupidity of the other party doesnt make you wrong

Well, that statement has too many negatives and I am struggling to work out what it means, do you really mean to say

"Just because you do something because it requires the assumption of the inherent stupidity of the other party makes you right"???

Words defeat me.

in fact when you do deals on the basis that the other person is a fool you often find out the opposite.

I hope that the consumer is now reaching this stage of enlightenment. But I fear otherwise.

Peter Schiff, who remains one of the most clear headed speakers, has issued his latest VLOG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf0soEx0UD0...feature=channel

It is difficult to argue against his ideas that China and India, by developing their own internal markets, have a huge potential. 37% of the world's population is in these two rapidly developing countries. And just 4.5% of the world's population is represented by the US, the world's biggest debtor. Those figures knocked me back.

The US, as the world's largest economy and largest debtor has just 4.5% of the world's population.

Just think about the ramifications of that. It's amazing that the USD is the world's reserve currency, a simple printed USD supported by the guarantee that it is worth, well, 1 USD, which are being printed cost free in their trillions by the fed.

Edited May 19, 2009 by 12DrinkMore

[flying]

It's amazing that the USD is the world's reserve currency, a simple printed USD supported by the guarantee that it is worth, well, 1 USD, which are being printed cost free in their trillions by the fed.

Amazing almost fall short of the description fitting this situation. This paper is backed by nothing more than a promise of a govt. that cannot manage its own finances......It is based on that govt. speaking for its prisoner's.....errrrmm citizens who......you guessed it ....cannot manage their own finances.

I am by default a US citizen & even to my mind I am amazed at the gullibility of the rest of the world when it comes to this subject. Just because it has *always* worked in the past is not an indicator that this illusion can continue.

Your mention of Schiff's numbers should make that obvious.

The US, as the world's largest economy and largest debtor has just 4.5% of the world's population.

For me these other things about who is more wrong the lenders or the consumers is just a diversion & not really the main problem.

I am living the dream and can afford it because the nice finance company thinks I can

Of course it is both parties responsibility. If you sign a contract you have a responsibility to fulfill it of course......common sense.

But at the same time if a lender has a contract for you to sign that as a lender & looking at your finances they know dang well you will not be able to fulfill the contract?? Well I see little mercy for them when the inevitable comes due.

But again as I said this is imho just a diversion to blame this level. The truth is we are born & bred to be consumers. Goes back to that 4.5% & wonder why...

Edited May 19, 2009 by flying

[lannarebirth]

A little long, but a good read:

http://www.safehaven.com/article-13364.htm

[Abrak]

I2D,

I at no point meant to imply that you were being unintelligent in your underlying thinking my point was

1) If your underlying MPC is 108% you should only do do this on the basis that future inflation will lead to negative interest rates and therefore taking on debt to finance existing expenditures was logical.

2) On the other hand, lending debt on this basis would seem inherently illogical and except under very strange circumstances (for instance buying the underlying asset yourself would be more logical), any financing must be dependent on an illogical funding base.

Inherently I cannot see how an economy with an MPC of over 100% cam justify the title 'reserve currency' but I could also make the same argument against Bernanke who believes simply by definition the US has no bad debt problem because it owns the printing presses.

[flying]

That news I mentioned in post http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Financial-Cr...47#entry2744747

Is getting a lot of TV news play here today.

China, Brazil Research Conducting Trade in Yuan, Real (Update1)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...r=latin_america

[cloudhopper]

A little long, but a good read:

http://www.safehaven.com/article-13364.htm

This isn't going to end well.

[flying]

A little long, but a good read:

http://www.safehaven.com/article-13364.htm

Thanks good article...........

This was funny...

The good news today is that this uncertainty has disappeared. For we now know with probability that everything sucks everywhere. Welcome to a risk free world!

how true this is

No such identification is possible since the three developments highlighted in the chart and their improbable synergies are different from anything we have seen before.

How scary this is....

The answer may well determine whether we face a future of peace and prosperity, or of war and privation. As a personal aside, this author has never been more concerned than he is now about the economic state of the nation.

Overall a very scary bit of reading.

Much is beyond my understanding but looking at everything as objectively as possible....I wonder if it can be repaired at all?

[midas]

12, you would think after the expenses scandal this guy would at least try to salvage the last bit of credibility he might have had left.

What whores these people are - they will say anything to stay in power

Alistair Darling has predicted that the recession will be over by Christmas, brushing aside doubts that his Budget forecasts are overoptimistic.

In an interview with The Times, the Chancellor defied a gloomy assessment of Britain's recovery prospects set to emerge today in an annual economic health check from the International Monetary Fund.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle6322567.ece

[flying]

OK ALL DONE NOW

Seeing red? Me too

Jeez...........U.S. Considers Stripping SEC of Powers in Regulatory Overhaul

You will never guess who will run the show instead?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

If this is their idea then Nobama is really turning out to be a BIG mistake IMHO

The proposal, still being drafted, is likely to give the Federal Reserve more authority to supervise financial firms deemed too big to fail. The Fed may inherit some SEC functions, with others going to other agencies

I wonder who the other agencies are? Well who cares if they plan on letting the Fed Reserve oversee.... this game over anyway

Edited May 20, 2009 by flying

[Abrak]

There are signs that this is happening, and that people are paying down debt. Savings are increasing. I hope that the populations are now realising that the government is not going to provide pensions, the company pension schemes are abused and essentially bankrupt anyway, and it is now down to everybody to look after themselves. Maybe with the internet people are now better able to educate themselves and see alternatives, rather than rely on the drivel that we are spoon fed through the press and TV.

I spotted this paragraph and just wish to make 2 comments...

1) While US savings have increased they have not by much and forecasts by the CBO and FED assume they will decline once bank lending to the consumer returns to what they consider normal levels - MPC is current around 99%. In other words they are banking on a consumer led recovery.

2) The reason that future medicare/pension liabilities are not included in the US balance sheet as they should be under US GAAP is that they argue that they can cancel these commitments at anytime and on that basis they are not liabilities. This is a perfectly valid argument but if we take it at face value we should naturally assume they have no intention of meeting these obligations.

[midas]

OK ALL DONE NOW

Seeing red? Me too

Jeez...........U.S. Considers Stripping SEC of Powers in Regulatory Overhaul

You will never guess who will run the show instead?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

If this is their idea then Nobama is really turning out to be a BIG mistake IMHO

The proposal, still being drafted, is likely to give the Federal Reserve more authority to supervise financial firms deemed too big to fail. The Fed may inherit some SEC functions, with others going to other agencies

I wonder who the other agencies are? Well who cares if they plan on letting the Fed Reserve oversee.... this game over anyway

Flying tell me this is not for real.............

or tell me the American public would never stand for this

This is too amazing for words..........not the bloody Fed again !

Surely the shareholders associations in USA will make a fuss about this

or someone...................................?

[flying]

Flying tell me this is not for real.............

or tell me the American public would never stand for this

This is too amazing for words..........not the bloody Fed again !

Surely the shareholders associations in USA will make a fuss about this

or someone...................................?

Seems to be for real & has all the markings.

Classic really when you read it things like.......

SEC Chairman Mary Schapiro’s agency has been mostly absent from negotiations within the administration on the regulatory overhaul, and she has expressed frustration about not being consulted,

That is classic they move quick & try to slam it while they can.

Same way the Fed came into existence

Then they also have so much support now with whack jobs like this helping...

Committee Chairman Barney Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat, is planning hearings with the aim of drafting a bill by the end of June.

And to top it off.............

Former Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, Geithner’s predecessor, urged Congress in a March 2008 “blueprint” for overhauling financial rules to give the Fed broader powers to oversee risk in the system.

Really if this continues stick a fork in us cause we are done.

You think this doesn't have Bilderberg written all over it.

PS: You know they could only do this bigger by letting Bernie Madoff run it.

Edited May 20, 2009 by flying

[cloudhopper]

OK ALL DONE NOW

Seeing red? Me too

Jeez...........U.S. Considers Stripping SEC of Powers in Regulatory Overhaul

You will never guess who will run the show instead?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

If this is their idea then Nobama is really turning out to be a BIG mistake IMHO

The proposal, still being drafted, is likely to give the Federal Reserve more authority to supervise financial firms deemed too big to fail. The Fed may inherit some SEC functions, with others going to other agencies

I wonder who the other agencies are? Well who cares if they plan on letting the Fed Reserve oversee.... this game over anyway

Looks like a step toward fascism. Another one I mean.

[midas]

Really if this continues stick a fork in us cause we are done.

You think this doesn't have Bilderberg written all over it.

PS: You know they could only do this bigger by letting Bernie Madoff run it.

No no ! I am just thinking about this-surely this is not a difficult point

to get across to the general public-how bizzare does it sound to have a small

group of Wall Street bankers ( the ones that people have grown to

hate ) setting the rules and regulations for companies that

are so vital to the 401K investments of so many Americans?

Where are the Michael Moore's of this world and surely the Republican Party

will not sit by and let this kind situation develop? What about people like

Ron Paul and you can at least rely on Rupert Murdoch's organization

to get the message across. Or are you saying there is no effective way

for people to fight back ?

[AlexLah]

Please let me know if this really reflects the average American. If so I have little hope left.........

[midas]

Please let me know if this really reflects the average American. If so I have little hope left.........

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious

[lannarebirth]

There are signs that this is happening, and that people are paying down debt. Savings are increasing. I hope that the populations are now realising that the government is not going to provide pensions, the company pension schemes are abused and essentially bankrupt anyway, and it is now down to everybody to look after themselves. Maybe with the internet people are now better able to educate themselves and see alternatives, rather than rely on the drivel that we are spoon fed through the press and TV.

I spotted this paragraph and just wish to make 2 comments...

1) While US savings have increased they have not by much and forecasts by the CBO and FED assume they will decline once bank lending to the consumer returns to what they consider normal levels - MPC is current around 99%. In other words they are banking on a consumer led recovery.

2) The reason that future medicare/pension liabilities are not included in the US balance sheet as they should be under US GAAP is that they argue that they can cancel these commitments at anytime and on that basis they are not liabilities. This is a perfectly valid argument but if we take it at face value we should naturally assume they have no intention of meeting these obligations.

All my financial planning is with that hpart I highlighted in mind. If I get any of it, I just consider that a bonus.

[12DrinkMore]

Just had the following offer from the Royal Bank of Scotland.

http://www.bankofscotland-international.co...-calculated.asp

The FTSE 100 Index doesn't even have to go up in order for you to earn 8% p.a. in any of the five years – it just mustn't go down!

In order to assess the FTSE 100 Index performance over each year of the deposit we do the following calculation:

Step 1: We record the closing level of the FTSE 100 Index on the Index start date (close of business 26th June 2009).

Step 2: On each business day between 26th May and 26th June (inclusive) of each year of your deposit we will record the closing levels of the FTSE 100 Index. We calculate the average closing level by adding up each of the daily closing levels and dividing the resultant figure by the number of days.

Step 3: We then compare this average closing level of the FTSE 100 Index to the level recorded on the Index start date.

Step 4: If the average closing level is the same or higher than the level recorded on the index start date then the 8% p.a. return is paid. Otherwise no return is paid for that year.

How on earth can these guys offer that sort of return? They hardly need the deposits, as the UK government has already bailed them out massively.

If the FTSE simply REMAINS where it is today, then you get a massive 47% return over the next five years!

Now, I am not stupid and neither are these guys making the offer (at least I have to assume that...). So what are they thinking? The only possible reason I can think of is that they expect the FTSE to fall and the UK economy to not recover over the next five years. Which I basically agree with.

But here it is, the big chance, agree with Darling that the UK economy will recover and stuff all your cash into the RBS scheme or side with RBS and move the lot out of the UK before it's too late?

Your call.....

[MJP]

Just had the following offer from the Royal Bank of Scotland.

http://www.bankofscotland-international.co...-calculated.asp

The FTSE 100 Index doesn't even have to go up in order for you to earn 8% p.a. in any of the five years – it just mustn't go down!

In order to assess the FTSE 100 Index performance over each year of the deposit we do the following calculation:

Step 1: We record the closing level of the FTSE 100 Index on the Index start date (close of business 26th June 2009).

Step 2: On each business day between 26th May and 26th June (inclusive) of each year of your deposit we will record the closing levels of the FTSE 100 Index. We calculate the average closing level by adding up each of the daily closing levels and dividing the resultant figure by the number of days.

Step 3: We then compare this average closing level of the FTSE 100 Index to the level recorded on the Index start date.

Step 4: If the average closing level is the same or higher than the level recorded on the index start date then the 8% p.a. return is paid. Otherwise no return is paid for that year.

How on earth can these guys offer that sort of return? They hardly need the deposits, as the UK government has already bailed them out massively.

If the FTSE simply REMAINS where it is today, then you get a massive 47% return over the next five years!

Now, I am not stupid and neither are these guys making the offer (at least I have to assume that...). So what are they thinking? The only possible reason I can think of is that they expect the FTSE to fall and the UK economy to not recover over the next five years. Which I basically agree with.

But here it is, the big chance, agree with Darling that the UK economy will recover and stuff all your cash into the RBS scheme or side with RBS and move the lot out of the UK before it's too late?

Your call.....

I call . . .

Let's get out of here, Scooby!!!!

[flying]

Really if this continues stick a fork in us cause we are done.

No no ! I am just thinking about this-surely this is not a difficult point

to get across to the general public- Or are you saying there is no effective way

for people to fight back ?

No what I am saying is *If This Continues*

Meaning if folks do not wake soon then we are done.

But I do see how well they have planned this out.

The *crisis* will keep folks heads down as usual nose to the grindstone

trying not to sink. There is little they see or hear at these points.......wait till it gets much worse.....Then what? Any govt official need only say we think this will help & give relief.....Same as they said way back for the Tarp that everyone I know & myself called our reps & said NO WE VOTE NO...You are suppose to be our proxy please vote no. They did as you know & then in the 2nd vote under the scare tactics presented by The Fed...Bush...Obama et al they turned & voted yes.

We see the result....basically they have lost control of it & cannot really even say with certainty where the money is.

Folks I know that are aware are looking for alternatives. Many are assuming a total loss here & just want to know how to minimize theirs & how to survive.

We will see...wont we

[flying]

China dealing with Brazil

Russia changes basic reserve from USD to Euro

Writing on the wall is getting bolder....We should have a raffle

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article10755.html

[flying]

These are Good!

You know Jesse needs more people skills & needs to learn

how to crush troll like this Brian but good watch anyway...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGkXRkKvHro...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuaD6zbZqdQ

[Hanzkneez]

Three contractors are bidding to fix a broken fence at the White House.

One is from Chicago, another is from Tennessee, and the third is from Minnesota. All three go with a White House official to examine the fence.

The Minnesota contractor takes out a tape measure and does some measuring, then works some figures with a pencil.

"Well," he says, "I figure the job will run about $900: $400 for materials, $400 for my crew and $100 profit for me.

"The Tennessee contractor also does some measuring and figuring, then says, "I can do this job for $700: $300 for materials, $300 for my crew and $100 profit for me."

The Chicago contractor doesn't measure or figure, but leans over to the WhiteHouse official and whispers, "$2,700."

The official, incredulous, says, "You didn't even measure like the other guys! How did you come up with such a high figure?"

The Chicago contractor whispers back, "$1000 for me, $1000 for you, and we hire the guy from Tennessee to fix the fence.

"Done!" replies the government official.

And that, my friends, is how the new stimulus plan will work.

Thai Business model also

[teletiger]

Remember those "green shoots"?

Quote:

"There are concerns finally coming through about where the underlying growth is going to come from," said Justin Urquhart Stewart, investment director at Seven Investment Management.

"We need a growing level of demand. There's a certain amount of restocking happening, and unfortunately the market has been taking that as a sign of a recovery, which it is not," he said.

Full thing: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8060842.stm

Regards.