New Three-way Thai-english English-thai Dictionary

[Steve2UK]

Hi all,

Having previously ordered Thai language books & CD-Rom's from Paiboon, I've just received an e-mail from them and thought I'd pass on the info:

Sawatdii ka,

Paiboon Publishing is proud to announce our new Three-Way

Thai–English, English–Thai Pocket Dictionary, available for ordering

immediately from paiboonpublishing.com .

Whether you are visiting Thailand for a short while or living there

permanently, you will find most of the vocabulary used in everyday

life, including basic medical, cultural, political and scientific

terms. Completely updated and expanded with more than 28,000 entries

and 36,000 definitions, as well as a new, large font size that is easy

on the eyes, this next-generation Paiboon dictionary now lists over

15,000 classifiers along with nouns. There is an extensive intro to

speaking and writing Thai, with a handy font chart to help you read

signs and newspaper headlines.

This practical Thai–English, English–Thai dictionary is designed to

help English speakers like you communicate in Thai, whether or not you

can read the Thai alphabet. All Thai words are listed in both Thai

script and an easy-to-learn, English-like pronunciation system that

fully expresses the Thai sound, including the tones and everything

else you need to speak and understand Thai words correctly. It's a

perfect fit with our other books, such as Thai for Beginners. Unlike

traditional dictionaries, there are three sections: you can look up an

English word in the English section, look up a Thai word you read

using the Thai Script section, or look up a Thai word you hear by its

sound in the unique Thai Sound section.

It's the one dictionary you can really use! And it comes in a

portable size that is easy to carry around Thailand.

Book Details

- Author: Benjawan Poomsan Becker and Chris Pirazzi

- Book: Paperback. 982 pages.

- Stock ID: 1037B

- Size: 4.1" x 5.6"

More info and sample pages at: http://www.paiboonpublishing.com/details.php?prodId=68

(price seems to be about Bt600 - the link above shows $18)

[Gaccha]

Whether you are visiting Thailand for a short while or living there

permanently, you will find most of the vocabulary used in everyday

life, including basic medical, cultural, political and scientific

terms. Completely updated and expanded with more than 28,000 entries

and 36,000 definitions, as well as a new, large font size that is easy

on the eyes, this next-generation Paiboon dictionary now lists over

15,000 classifiers along with nouns.

Who on earth is this really aimed at? It seems it is trying to please everyone and anyone and failing to please anyone. With so many entries that could only be utilised by an advanced speaker it seems to be for an advanced speaker. But then there are no example sentences, so how does the speaker learn to use the words...

Perhaps it is aimed at the novice; it does have transliterations of the Thai. But could they, would they, should they need so many words...?

My suggestion for Paiboon is to do this:Release a dictionary of 2,500 words with a breakdown of their meanings and around 8,000 simple sentences, and use transliterations (I recommend the International Phonetic Alphabet), with a very large font size.

Release another dictionary with 28,000 words, with a smaller font size, with transliterations, but concentrate on tough sentences.

For the time being, I will continue to use Concise of Windows of Languages for Thai-English, and the Eng-Thai dictionary compact edition that is the only small dictionary with sentences. Is that fair?

[mangkorn]

Oh, I don't think you should be so dismissive of it. Every resource can be valuable. I still carry my second badly tattered, held together by duct tape copy of Poomsan Becker's original compact Thai-English/English-Thai dictionary with a transliteration section, and find it useful. For example, if you hear a word that you aren't sure of the spelling, it may be very easy to find in that section by knowing the sound of the initial consonant. Otherwise, you may have to look in several places in the Thai section before you find it. I use it for quick reference, and then write down the Thai spelling in a notebook for later reference and memorization. (I have five other dictionaries, but I can't carry any of them around with me very easily).

[Rikker]

The old version is a bookstore staple; other than Se-ed, one that you could always find on the shelves -- I personally never thought it was very good, but I'm told it has always been a very good seller.

When they started out making this new one, Chris Pirazzi (of the website slice-of-thai.com) and I corresponded some about ideal dictionary features, and improvements they planned to make. While I wasn't directly involved in the production, I think it will be a big step up from the old one. Entries include icons to tell you which register a word belongs to (slang, royal, vulgar, etc.), and entries for nouns also give the relevant classifier (a feature I always liked about Haas).

The dimensions are 4.1" x 5.6" and it's 982 pages long ... sounds like it stretches the definition of pocket dictionary. More like a backpack dictionary. How many pages was the old one? Anyway, I'm always glad to see competition in the Thai dictionary market. It's the only way to encourage excellence. I look forward to getting my hands on a copy.

The above kind of reads like an ad, but it's not. Just my opinion.

[Edit: I'm also told they plan to eventually release a mid-sized desk dictionary and a large "unabridged" dictionary in the future. Paiboon is getting very ambitious!]

Edited February 6, 2009 by Rikker

[withnail]

I agree with mangkorn. I have a copy of the original Becker dictionary in a similar condition to his one. I haven't used it for a long time mainly because I now have a copy of Lexitron on my symbian mobile phone and because at higher levels it becomes a bit limited. I also own other dictionaries which I prefer such as Haas which is my favourite.

However, my old Becker dictionary probably taught me more vocab in the old days than any of my other dictionaries have. It's the only dictionary you can recommend to someone starting out and is great for transitioning from transliterated Thai to Thai script. As mangkorn pointed out the phonetic section is useful even after you've learnt to read Thai.

I will probably buy this when I see it.

[DavidHouston]

I don't want to pile on here but I have to agree with Khun Mangkorn and Khun Withnail. Creating a dictionary is not a precise science. Much of a language's vocabulary does not have a precise one-to-one relationship with words in another language. A historical perspective helps the careful learner and reader to discern the change in meanings over time. The Mary Haas dictionary was published in 1964, if I am not mistaken; the George Bradley McFarland, M.D., dictionary was compiled in 1941. Neither are contemporary with the Thai language of today but both are useful to gain understandings of how words have developed and meanings have migrated over time.

If one were to learn Thai solely from these two sources, one would quickly find oneself outdated, like a relic from the past. A range of dictionaries from the historical to the slang is the optimum.

In short, no dictionary is "the best" but they each have their uses.

[Lithobid]

I also don't want to pile on, but want to stress the importance of learning to read and write. Would you learn to speak english by reading and writing Russian? GET OUT OF TRANSLITERATIONS. Learn the Thai alphabet.

I know this dictionary does include both, but until your ready to completely leave the Roman alphabet your wasting your time. Just my opinions, hope I didn't offend.

Cheers

Lithobid

[kriswillems]

To be honest, I didn't like the first dictionary. I use a dictionary at 2 places:

1. At home I use sealang, the RID or thai2english on my computer

2. When I travel, I take a small Thai-English dictionary with me and almost never an English-Thai dictionary (because I am not English, so sometimes I also don't know the English word and because I can explain most things in Thai by using words I already know).

For me a good dictionary should have a high usefulness per kilogram.

I only use Thai/English, so only 1/3 of the original dictionary.

The number of entries in the original dictionary is limited and the explanation of the words too short.

The so the usefulness/kilogram is very low (for me).

My 75 Baht SE-ED "new compact Thai/English dictionary" has more entries and is smaller. It not the best dictionary but the best dictionary is just too heavy to carry around and easier to use on a computer.

I think the solution withnail uses (symbian phone + lexitron) has a very high usefullness/kilogram (but it's out of my budget).

Edited February 6, 2009 by kriswillems

[DavidHouston]

What is a "Symbian phone" and how does one get Lexitron on it?

[Richard W]

I also don't want to pile on, but want to stress the importance of learning to read and write. Would you learn to speak english by reading and writing Russian? GET OUT OF TRANSLITERATIONS. Learn the Thai alphabet.

I know this dictionary does include both, but until your ready to completely leave the Roman alphabet your wasting your time. Just my opinions, hope I didn't offend.

Consider the difficulty of looking up [H]sap, [L]set or [H]maai, especially if one is struggling with tone recognition. Admittedly, Thai generally lacks the extreme obscurity English has in words like /mi:sis/.

Does this phonetic section cope with words like [M]ka[M]yaan 'bicycle'?

[withnail]

What is a "Symbian phone" and how does one get Lexitron on it?

Go here http://dictionarymid.sourceforge.net/

Or there's always LekLekDict http://project-ile.net/lulu/leklekdict/

You can run these on some other types of phones, PDAs etc. Symbian is basically an operating system for mobile phones, most of the decent Nokias use it and some Sony Ericsons I think.

Regarding Lithobid's post, although I agree that learning to read Thai is essential, I don't think that using dictionaries with English in is a bad idea. The RID although good does not always explain words in a way that is useful for learners of Thai, that's not what it is designed for. Having transliterations in with the Thai is also a good idea to show irregular pronunciation and if there is a separate section, as with Becker's, for looking up words that you have heard.

Edited February 8, 2009 by withnail

[DavidHouston]

What is a "Symbian phone" and how does one get Lexitron on it?

Go here http://dictionarymid.sourceforge.net/

Or there's always LekLekDict http://project-ile.net/lulu/leklekdict/

You can run these on some other types of phones, PDAs etc. Symbian is basically an operating system for mobile phones, most of the decent Nokias use it and some Sony Ericsons I think.

Regarding Lithobid's post, although I agree that learning to read Thai is essential, I don't think that using dictionaries with English in is a bad idea. The RID although good does not always explain words in a way that is useful for learners of Thai, that's not what it is designed for. Having transliterations in with the Thai is also a good idea to show irregular pronunciation and if there is a separate section, as with Becker's, for looking up words that you have heard.

Withnail,

To find a word or phrase on a telephone with a downloaded dictionary, how does one input the word? Do you need a phone with a full keyboard or can you use the telephone keypad? Is entering Thai via the latter method a pain in the neck?

[withnail]

You use the phone keypad like when you write an SMS. I find it useful because predictive text can help you with Thai spelling.

[njpski]

i actually have this book

It is pretty good but is restricted in its vocabulary of "adult" - eg not all body parts are included and certainly no "vulgar" words, expressions.

But it is compact and follows the same transliteration conventions as her other books

[Rikker]

njpski, are you sure this isn't the earlier edition? From talking with Chris Pirazzi, the co-author, he said Benjawan observes no taboos in this dictionary -- it has the gamut of vulgar words in both Thai and English.

This one is brand new -- not even in bookstores yet, but for all I know the website is already shipping it. Does anyone have a confirmed copy of it, with this cover?

Edited February 12, 2009 by Rikker

[wstefanc]

I have a copy which showed up at my house in the US on Tuesday. Haven't spent much time with it yet. At first glance, it appears to be a big improvement over the previous edition. I haven't had the opportunity to look for vulgar terms, yet. What would you all like me to look for...

njpski, are you sure this isn't the earlier edition? From talking with Chris Pirazzi, the co-author, he said Benjawan observes no taboos in this dictionary -- it has the gamut of vulgar words in both Thai and English.

This one is brand new -- not even in bookstores yet, but for all I know the website is already shipping it. Does anyone have a confirmed copy of it, with this cover?

[Rikker]

It's not that we want you to look for them. Simply that it has them -- njpski saying it didn't tipped me off that he must be talking about a different dictionary.

Anyhow, my copy is on the way. Look forward to getting it.

[Rikker]

I got my copy today. My first impression is generally favorable. I'll post some more thoughts when I've had a closer look, and I'll also blog about it.

[Gaccha]

This one is brand new -- not even in bookstores yet

It is now. Saw it today for the first time. And didn't buy it. 495 bahts. You must be %*^*Y*(& joking...

[Rikker]

I agree that the price is a downside. Would be nice if it were cheaper. Especially when full-size dictionaries like Domnern/Sathienphong, Matichon and RID are in the ฿600 range.

It's doing some things very right, though, especially for a pocket dictionary (though at its size it's really more like a backpack dictionary).

It indicates stressed/unstressed syllables using - and ~ ... so the word สนทนา is romanized sǒn-thá~naa. So while it still shows you the formal tone of the middle syllable (high), the ~ also tells you that in practice it's unstressed, and so the tone is neutralized in fluid speech. You could do the same with Thai and avoid Roman (สน-ทะ~นา), but it's still a cool feature.

It also shows where to place direct and indirect objects in relation to verb phrases. For example:

worry vt. ทำให้_เป็นห่วง

So those are a couple of things I like about it so far.

Kudos also for the use of icons for register/jargon (talking head for colloquial, crown for royal, etc.) -- this is a very effective way of conveying this information in a compact way, and more kudos for the inclusion of classifiers for all nouns.

[Gaccha]

It indicates stressed/unstressed syllables using - and ~ ... so the word สนทนา is romanized sǒn-thá~naa. So while it still shows you the formal tone of the middle syllable (high), the ~ also tells you that in practice it's unstressed, and so the tone is neutralized in fluid speech. You could do the same with Thai and avoid Roman (สน-ทะ~นา), but it's still a cool feature.

Now this is interesting. I have often thought tone (i.e. pitch) is privileged in discussions on learning Thai. I feel the stresses are more important. Go shopping and go pitich neutral but get all the stresses right and everything is understood. This fascinates me. Takes a lot of practice to kill all the tones though.