Longnecks

[keithkarmann]

Can anyone give me any information about the Thai Longnecks. 1. Where to find their village (somewhere near Chiang Duo I believe) 2. Are they worth going to see? I have heard that it is cruel and just carried on for the tourists. 3. Can we drive to the village in a Toyota Vios and can we get in the village without a tour guide? 4. How much is it to go in the village.

keithkarmann

[Ajarn]

They are not Thai, nor are they longnecks either.

[keithkarmann]

They are not Thai, nor are they longnecks either.

O/K they are not Thai and their necks are not long but if you are not answering my questions why bother replying?

[IanForbes]

I can't help you other than to say go with a tour guide the first time and pay attention to the directions for a return trip on your own. Most tours are dirt cheap and great value for the money. I bring a GPS everywhere I go so I have some idea of how to return.

[taxexile]

if you like gawking at people who have been mutilated for the express purpose of attracting gawking tourists , then by all means go.

just be aware that you will be encouraging this barbaric practice , and encouraging the people traffiking these burmese hill tribe people to continue doing so.

there is nothing cultural about this , it is purely a money making operation run by thais that exploits a disadvantaged group for the benefit of gullible tourists.

roll up roll up , come and see the amazing two headed baby , the bearded lady , the playful dwarves , the man with the pointed head and the thai longnecks.

[Ajarn]

They are not Thai, nor are they longnecks either.

O/K they are not Thai and their necks are not long but if you are not answering my questions why bother replying?

To show your stupid ignorance and to tell you the truth.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Ajarn

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Keith,

Start here :

http://www.friendsofthekaren.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_people

http://www.karenhilltribes.org.uk/index.ph...9&Itemid=90

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559...n_(people).html

~o:37;

[IanForbes]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Keith,

Start here :

http://www.friendsofthekaren.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_people

http://www.karenhilltribes.org.uk/index.ph...9&Itemid=90

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761559...n_(people).html

~o:37;

Thanks for the informative reply without the insults.

There have been barbaric practises throughout the world for centuries, and most are NOT done for commercial purposes. The horrific practise of genital mutilation of young females is just one of many.

[sceadugenga]

There's a signposted village just north of Chiang Rai on the main road.

For reasons already discussed, many people... myself included, choose not to patronise these places.

[gpdjohn]

Here is the only long neck I'll look at...

and pay for.

[BSJ]

Budweiser.....give me a break gpdjohn! Try something enjoyable!

[keithkarmann]

if you like gawking at people who have been mutilated for the express purpose of attracting gawking tourists , then by all means go.

just be aware that you will be encouraging this barbaric practice , and encouraging the people traffiking these burmese hill tribe people to continue doing so.

there is nothing cultural about this , it is purely a money making operation run by thais that exploits a disadvantaged group for the benefit of gullible tourists.

roll up roll up , come and see the amazing two headed baby , the bearded lady , the playful dwarves , the man with the pointed head and the thai longnecks.

Thanks taxexile and everybody else for their constructive critisism especially Ajarn,I will probably give the Longnecks a miss now that I am more informed but the amazing two headed baby and the playful dwarves sound interesting-no info required I'll do my own research.

keithkarmann

[taxexile]

I will probably give the Longnecks a miss

a wise decision if i may say so.

[gpdjohn]

Budweiser.....give me a break gpdjohn! Try something enjoyable!

Gosh, I know...terrible stuff Buttweiser, but the only pic of a "Longneck" I could find.

Here's one I wish I could find here.. Finally sumptin' those boys from Texas can be very proud of!

[bunta71]

IMHO any beer you can see through ain't hardly worth drinkin' That aside and back on track, maybe a question for one of my neighbors about the Long Necks. I had heard that New Zealand had offered and built homes for 50 Karen families along with visas,etc. Then when the time came to move them, the folks making all the money from exhiting these "prisoners" wouldn't allow it to happen. Anyone else any insight?

Edited February 9, 2009 by bunta71

[fred2007]

Budweiser.....give me a break gpdjohn! Try something enjoyable!

Great Brew

[FolkGuitar]

Can anyone give me any information about the Thai Longnecks. 1. Where to find their village (somewhere near Chiang Duo I believe) 2. Are they worth going to see? I have heard that it is cruel and just carried on for the tourists. 3. Can we drive to the village in a Toyota Vios and can we get in the village without a tour guide? 4. How much is it to go in the village.

keithkarmann

While it IS carried on very much for the tourist trade, it's that same tourist trade that gives these Karen people cash money to spend on food, medicine, gas, clothing, in fact, everything that they can't grow or trade for! Their necks actually do not get longer. Instead, the collar bone gets pressed down giving the appearance of an elongated neck. They are a very friendly group of people trying to earn some cash to take back home. They've been wearing the neck rings for generations before, and will most likely be wearing them for many generations to come. Some of them say it began as a way to keep tigers from attacking them (none have been attacked for the last 75 years so maybe it works!) while others say that it was for beauty. It's real roots have been lost in antiquity, although some scholars claim that they know the 'real' reason. I hope so. They can tell the Karen!

Yes, they are terribly exploited by entrepreneurial Thais who establish 'villages' with houses that they rent to the Karen for very high fees. But these same Karen return to Burma after 6 months or a year with a pocket full of money... A lot MORE money than their fellow Burmese who have remained in Myanmar! Not a lot by western standards, but then, they don't live on a western economy. I spent a lot of time with them in the course of my business, making good friends with several over the years. They would come and go during the course of a year, returning either to the same village or one in a different area. I would see a family for a while then they would leave and go back to Myanmar. I'd see them again a year or two later, back with another load of things to sell.

If tourists do NOT go to visit these people, they do NOT get any money to live on. They DO farm for their food as much as possible, but you can't trade chickens for having the hospital fix a broken arm any more, and very few shoe stores will accept wooden carvings for shoes for the kids. They NEED cash in these modern times. It would be great to be able to go back 100 years when every hill tribe was basically self sufficient, but if you'll remember, the Hmong 'cash crop' was opium. Can't grow as much of that today as they might like which is why the government stepped in and instituted the Royal Agricultural Projects to generate cash for the hill tribe people. Unfortunately, in these modern times people need cash money to survive. It's a sad commentary on the growth of society, but it's a fact of life. Today, these people NEED to become tourist attractions just to make ends meet. Unless, of course, there are some philanthropic folks out there willing to offer them employment for more than 100 baht a day...

You can find a very nice multi-cultural village just 30 minutes north of Chiang Mai. This village houses Long Neck Karen, Lahu, Hmong, and sometimes Paduang people, all of them friendly and inviting tourists to take photos of them and with them, while of course hoping that the tourists will purchase the things that they have to offer; jewelery, hand woven cloths, carvings, etc. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE THERE!! I never found them to be pushy (in THIS village) when trying to sell, and always willing to smile. We often shared a meal with our friends in this village. You can find it just by going north on the Mae Rim road, turning left, (west) into the Mae Sa valley heading up towards the elephant camp. About 200 meters before the elephant camp there is a large restaurant complex on the left side of the road with a small road to the left just before the parking lot. Take this small road about 400 meters to the parking area of the village.

There are two other villages established in the Mae Hong Son area (too far to drive for a day trip,) and one north of Fang (another longer drive.) In the Chiang Dao region you will encounter more Lisu villages as well as Hmong people. No Long Neck Karen that I'm aware of. However, on Tuesday mornings there is a wonderful Farmer's Market right in the middle of the village of Chiang Dao (straddling both sides of the main road) where you will see many Lisu, Lahu, Hmong, and Paduang villagers doing their shopping and selling of excess crops. This market is ONLY on Tuesday and only in the mornings. After the market drive another few klicks to the Chiang Dao cave and see the carvings in living stone behind the temple buildings! The restaurants there are great for having a plate of pad thai and some BBQ chicken!

[ozzieovaseas]

you lost me at the mention of elephants..id rather see animals with long trunks before humans with long necks!

[Blinky Bill]

There have been barbaric practises throughout the world for centuries, and most are NOT done for commercial purposes. The horrific practise of genital mutilation of young females is just one of many.

But what about the barbaric practise of genital mutilation of young males to satisfy those that want a young girl that wasn't born a young girl?

[eek]

Interesting post FolkGuitar. I have at times thought about what is right and what is wrong regarding the Karen Tribe tours..so many of the points members have made have come into my consideration..and im still left not knowing. When I first arrived in Thailand, I went on an organised day-tour, and a visit to the tribe was part of the itinerary. At first I was really amazed as it was a new experience for me, but within a short time i felt really uncomfortable about looking at the people as if they were monkeys in a zoo.

But, im finding this a really informative thread. Hope to read more viewpoints to help me understand better.

----

KeithCarmann, if you do decide to go along, may I suggest that you buy some of their crafts. Also, at the time I went, there was a man selling small ice-creams, so if he is there, the kids there will enjoy if you buy an ice cream for them.

[eek]

There have been barbaric practises throughout the world for centuries, and most are NOT done for commercial purposes. The horrific practise of genital mutilation of young females is just one of many.

But what about the barbaric practise of genital mutilation of young males to satisfy those that want a young girl that wasn't born a young girl?

Both pretty horrific.

[Mossfinn]

Some good posts on here, some constructively anti and then the usual rant and some pretty good constructive ones, particularly by Folk Guitar, after reading the thread, I am again wondering the moral way forward.

I tend to agree it sounds like a human zoo and there have been good links in the past, sorry I didn't get to read yours '37, both for and anti the Karen tourist scene.

But if they are better off, as FG states, then well and good, it is the exploitation by others I have a problem with.

[FolkGuitar]

Some good posts on here, some constructively anti and then the usual rant and some pretty good constructive ones, particularly by Folk Guitar, after reading the thread, I am again wondering the moral way forward.

I tend to agree it sounds like a human zoo and there have been good links in the past, sorry I didn't get to read yours '37, both for and anti the Karen tourist scene.

But if they are better off, as FG states, then well and good, it is the exploitation by others I have a problem with.

The trouble is, it IS a human zoo. But unfortunately it is serving the the needs of the Karen people to a small degree while lining the pockets of the Thai entrepreneurs to a large degree. But then, that is exactly what is going on with most large international charity organizations too. Someone once said that for the really large ones, only 5% of the money raised actually gets to the needy. The rest goes to the people running the charity.

I occasionally asked some of the people in the villages (I also routinely visited a Red Karen village on Doi Inthanon) if they minded the tourists coming to gawk and stare. One young teenaged girl said she felt a bit embarrassed FOR the tourists, that they would travel so far and spend so much money just to come to a poor village with dirt paths and thatched roofed wooden houses to watch ordinary people do ordinary things. The most common reply of the adults was that they felt lucky that the tourists came, and wished more would come and spend even more money! After all, that's what they were there for...

Usually, when you visit these villages you see mostly women and kids. The men are off doing manual labor, illegally of course. But at least they can get some work. There is none to be had back in Myanmar. Go to Yangon and see all the adult men and women just sitting on the streets looking beaten down. Count the number of child monks, 4-5 year olds, in saffron not because of religious reasons but because that's the only way they can legally beg for food. Mom and Dad can't afford to feed them. When you go to the Long Neck Karen villages you see well fed children. You see healthy children. The parents CAN afford to feed them. Thanks to the tourists' baht.

Yeah... the situation sucks. That they have to do this to feed and clothe the kids is sad. So is the poor 19 year old guy walking with his wife, his kid, and his elephant down the street trying to get some food for Dumbo and the baby. The situation sucks. But the situation is. I sure wish I had a more comfortable solution... but I don't. So I go to the villages. And when I'm there I buy the trinkets that I really don't want. They cost me the equivalent of a lunch buffet at the Empress. To the locals, that is three day's pay. I wish I had some sort of permanent solution but I don't. So I do what I can. Anyone have some ideas how to change the world?

[eek]

Just wish to say thank you so much FolkGuitar for taking time to write really informative posts.

[Mossfinn]

Just wish to say thank you so much FolkGuitar for taking time to write really informative posts.

What is good to see is someone with such burning desire, recounting his views philosophically, reasoned and with intelligent clarity, rather than fired up vitriol, that can neither be constructive, nor intelligent.

Good Luck

Moss

[FolkGuitar]

Just wish to say thank you so much FolkGuitar for taking time to write really informative posts.

No need for thanks. These folks were friends of mine, not some academic or philosophical project with which I was involved. They were people I would meet with several times a week. This can really open one's eyes to the reality of the situation. It's all too easy to sit back and say that the tourist villages are bad, without stopping to think what it is that actually makes them so terrible. It's certainly not the viewing of the people. We pay money to do that all the time, be it at a circus (where we really watch the people perform,) or the theater, the movies, or even strolling down the Sunday Shopping street. Bizarre costumes, odd music, physical activities, etc., etc., etc. How different is the contortionist at the circus, who will be a virtual cripple later in life, than the Big Ear Karen or their cousins, the Long Neck Karen?

The shame of it is that it is needed today because of the advance of 'civilization.' The shame of it is that the ones who need the money earned from these villages have to pay such usurious fees to the entrepreneurs. Then again, in all fairness to these entrepreneurial village owners, the owners are paying usurious fees to the government workers as 'tea money' so that the Burmese can remain in the Kingdom without worry. I was in the village one day when one such government employee was there having (helping) the Burmese fill out forms and have their pictures taken for some sort of ID cards that would permit them to stay. My language skills weren't enough to find out exactly what these papers were, or which governmental office, but I was 'asked' NOT to take a picture of the guy who was wearing the white shirt and tie.... To be sure, he wasn't doing it for free. In fact, it was the only day when I say all the men of the village there during the day time. They needed their papers too. That was 50-75 illegal aliens being given paper to make them legally able to stay in Thailand. They didn't even have to ride the VIP bus to Mae Sai! But they did have to pay cash. The entrepreneurial village owners won't take chickens and neither will the government employee.

Some years ago, a large group of armchair environmentalists got enough names on a petition to have fur trapping made illegal around the Maryland side of Chesapeake Bay in the US. They said fur trapping was terrible and should be abolished because it was killing off all the cute little furry creatures. There were enough names so the lawmakers passed the ruling. Within two years of the ban on trapping, the incidence of Rabies had increased 40%. By the third year it was up 200%. When, at the end of the fourth year it was 400% higher than before the ban went into effect, the law was rescinded. Within two years the incidence of Rabies was back to the level it had been before the ban went into effect. The armchair environmentalists had all the best motives. They really wanted to do something to help the cute little furry creatures. What they didn't have was the knowledge that in today's society, with human encroachment on animal's eco-system removing most of their natural predators who would normally kill off the weaker or sickly animals, trapping was what was replacing that culling effect, keeping the animal population in check. Today, in modern society with its restrictive forces applied to the indigenous hill tribes, 'something' has to replace the system for keeping these people alive. The Royal Agricultural Projects is one such effort that is helping to rebuild the Hmong community. We need other projects to help the other tribes.

[waza]

Hi, I saw the Karon people in a small village outside Chang Mai. There was only elderly men and women there, as the men are still in Burma fighting for survival againt the Bumese army. They were paid 3000 baht each a month, by their Thai handler, who supplied the village they were staying in. They didnt look exploited, but they did have to keep their mobile phones hidden from the tourists.

[el jefe]

I've been to several "Long Neck villages" both here and in Myanmar and have spoken to many of the inhabitants, many of whom speak excellent English. I'll continue to visit; I'll continue to bring friends and relatives; and I'll continue to spend money there based on what I've heard and seen.

Folk Guitar, you've saved me a lot of typing. And said it better than I ever could.

No need for thanks. These folks were friends of mine, not some academic or philosophical project with which I was involved. They were people I would meet with several times a week. This can really open one's eyes to the reality of the situation. It's all too easy to sit back and say that the tourist villages are bad, without stopping to think what it is that actually makes them so terrible. It's certainly not the viewing of the people. We pay money to do that all the time, be it at a circus (where we really watch the people perform,) or the theater, the movies, or even strolling down the Sunday Shopping street. Bizarre costumes, odd music, physical activities, etc., etc., etc. How different is the contortionist at the circus, who will be a virtual cripple later in life, than the Big Ear Karen or their cousins, the Long Neck Karen?

The shame of it is that it is needed today because of the advance of 'civilization.' The shame of it is that the ones who need the money earned from these villages have to pay such usurious fees to the entrepreneurs. Then again, in all fairness to these entrepreneurial village owners, the owners are paying usurious fees to the government workers as 'tea money' so that the Burmese can remain in the Kingdom without worry. I was in the village one day when one such government employee was there having (helping) the Burmese fill out forms and have their pictures taken for some sort of ID cards that would permit them to stay. My language skills weren't enough to find out exactly what these papers were, or which governmental office, but I was 'asked' NOT to take a picture of the guy who was wearing the white shirt and tie.... To be sure, he wasn't doing it for free. In fact, it was the only day when I say all the men of the village there during the day time. They needed their papers too. That was 50-75 illegal aliens being given paper to make them legally able to stay in Thailand. They didn't even have to ride the VIP bus to Mae Sai! But they did have to pay cash. The entrepreneurial village owners won't take chickens and neither will the government employee.

Some years ago, a large group of armchair environmentalists got enough names on a petition to have fur trapping made illegal around the Maryland side of Chesapeake Bay in the US. They said fur trapping was terrible and should be abolished because it was killing off all the cute little furry creatures. There were enough names so the lawmakers passed the ruling. Within two years of the ban on trapping, the incidence of Rabies had increased 40%. By the third year it was up 200%. When, at the end of the fourth year it was 400% higher than before the ban went into effect, the law was rescinded. Within two years the incidence of Rabies was back to the level it had been before the ban went into effect. The armchair environmentalists had all the best motives. They really wanted to do something to help the cute little furry creatures. What they didn't have was the knowledge that in today's society, with human encroachment on animal's eco-system removing most of their natural predators who would normally kill off the weaker or sickly animals, trapping was what was replacing that culling effect, keeping the animal population in check. Today, in modern society with its restrictive forces applied to the indigenous hill tribes, 'something' has to replace the system for keeping these people alive. The Royal Agricultural Projects is one such effort that is helping to rebuild the Hmong community. We need other projects to help the other tribes.

[C4Chilli]

If tourists do NOT go to visit these people, they do NOT get any money to live on. They DO farm for their food as much as possible, but you can't trade chickens for having the hospital fix a broken arm any more, and very few shoe stores will accept wooden carvings for shoes for the kids. They NEED cash in these modern times. It would be great to be able to go back 100 years when every hill tribe was basically self sufficient, but if you'll remember, the Hmong 'cash crop' was opium. Can't grow as much of that today as they might like which is why the government stepped in and instituted the Royal Agricultural Projects to generate cash for the hill tribe people. Unfortunately, in these modern times people need cash money to survive. It's a sad commentary on the growth of society, but it's a fact of life. Today, these people NEED to become tourist attractions just to make ends meet. Unless, of course, there are some philanthropic folks out there willing to offer them employment for more than 100 baht a day...

You can find a very nice multi-cultural village just 30 minutes north of Chiang Mai. This village houses Long Neck Karen, Lahu, Hmong, and sometimes Paduang people, all of them friendly and inviting tourists to take photos of them and with them, while of course hoping that the tourists will purchase the things that they have to offer; jewelery, hand woven cloths, carvings, etc. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE THERE!! I never found them to be pushy (in THIS village) when trying to sell, and always willing to smile. We often shared a meal with our friends in this village. You can find it just by going north on the Mae Rim road, turning left, (west) into the Mae Sa valley heading up towards the elephant camp. About 200 meters before the elephant camp there is a large restaurant complex on the left side of the road with a small road to the left just before the parking lot. Take this small road about 400 meters to the parking area of the village.

mmm. I always said that I would never go to see the Longnecks, circus show, exhibits etc.

I suppose there are different ways of interpreting many things that are happening in this world and Folk Guitar has just made us aware of a situation which would not be apparent to many, myself included.

I think the next time I'm in Chiang Mai I will pay them a visit to buy some trinkets and carvings that I don't really need

I used to live near the Mae Sa valley and have ridden along this road many times but was unaware this village existed.

Thanks again for the very informative post.

[john b good]

They are not Thai, nor are they longnecks either.

O/K they are not Thai and their necks are not long but if you are not answering my questions why bother replying?

Keith,

If you follow TV you will see many inane responses by some (no names but "read" between the lines)

As to where you might see these people (women with long necks regardless of whether they are Thai or where they come from "maybe the dark side of the moon") you will see them a plenty in and around Mae Hong Son.

With regards to "is it worth going to see them" I would say not worth it in my book.

Edited February 11, 2009 by john b good