Yellow Shirts To 'invade' Red Bastions

[cmsally]

In between all the usual pettiness we get on these threads, does anyone have any analysis of why the yellows want to invade the red centers? Nothing in politics happens in isolation and nobody does things just to rub noses in it. So what is it really all about?

One of the PAD leaders said that this initiative is to educate the people about "New Politics'. But why wouldn't he be concentrating on more receptive audiences?

First, many of those who supported PAD- at least on the side lines, are quite happy with Old Politics- now that they have a government more to their tastes.

But also- and maybe more cunning- Sonthi is playing an interesting little game here:

By inciting animosity for the mere presence of PAD rallies- ie, New Politics Information Seminars- , he is hoping to demonstrate to the country that those who oppose New Politics are hillbilly Thaksinistas- eventually this becomes a kind of 'meme' (thanks Dawkins by way of Hammered)- and thus when he brings his act (which is fundamentally aimed at overthrowing the present system of government- not just the government) to the more enlightened pockets of the nation (Bangkok)- the polarity will be set: either you support New Politics- or you are a Thaksinista.

Just a thought.

I would agree with this analysis. Those who think that the ultimate goal is not "New Politics" have very much missed the plot.

The point of new politics being to pave the way for the solidification of positions for all cronies who have noses to trough at present and for the events which will unfold within next 10 or so years and can't be mentioned here.

There are also other aspects (entwined with the above) which you might dig up with a bit of a search to do with genealogy which are quite illuminating.

[Plus]

Or, perhaps, PAD wants to do away with the notion that Thais cannot express different political opinions in Udon and other red strongholds.

Perhaps PAD is stressing that Thailand is a free country and people are free to think and campaign for whatever they want.

This notion has somehow entrenched itself in minds of some of our members. Some red supporters find the idea of free political campaigning abhorring, some think that it needs to be put down. Ironically they might be the same ones that call PAD "fascist".

>>>>

If people of Udon et al will see that it's possible to express different political opinions peacefully it would restrict reds penchant for blood and violence, it would be a big step towards reconciliation.

[hammered]

Cheers blaze, cyber, plus and cmsally. Interesesting. Cant say I disagree with any of it and dont think it is mutually exclusive.

I have always felt that at some time there will be a conflict between the PAD and the Dems. Interesting thing will be to see if at some point Abhisit will move against both PAD and reds. He could get a lot of popular support (and populist convert is he) if he did and establish his independence. However, it would mean making some powerful enemies, but thay may not be willing to go the whole hog of abolishing democracy totally if they couldnt get the Dems to go with the plan, and I dont think the Dems want to abolish democracy while they are in the ascendency - 50% pay raises for Kamnan and Headmen! Hundreds of Baht for school uniforms for all! 2000 baht for the monthly low paid! Farmers debt forgiveness! 1 billion for health care clinics sand workers! Free electric and water continued! BJT daily allowances and sign up fees that have PTP MPs drueling! Doesnt look like they are abandoning the electoral system to me. Looks more like they and their current allies are making sure they will win the next election or at least increasing the chances. Those PADites and supporters that do still want New Politics and there are some probably wont like these developments at all.

[justanothercybertosser]

Or, perhaps, PAD wants to do away with the notion that Thais cannot express different political opinions in Udon and other red strongholds.

Yes, and maybe not.

I believe that when i see PAD allowing the Red Shirts holding a meeting undisturbed in their strongholds. The last one though was violently disturbed, in Phuket. One Red Shirt needed stitches, one woman was stripped of her shirt, which was then burned.

http://www.koratdaily.com/board/board_read.asp?id=838

http://thaienews.blogspot.com/2008/11/blog-post_8022.html

[jdinasia]

Or, perhaps, PAD wants to do away with the notion that Thais cannot express different political opinions in Udon and other red strongholds.

Yes, and maybe not.

I believe that when i see PAD allowing the Red Shirts holding a meeting undisturbed in their strongholds. The last one though was violently disturbed, in Phuket. One Red Shirt needed stitches, one woman was stripped of her shirt, which was then burned.

http://www.koratdaily.com/board/board_read.asp?id=838

http://thaienews.blogspot.com/2008/11/blog-post_8022.html

Hmmmm isn't BKK considered "yellow" and ... oh well why bother. The reds will keep killing and then their defenders will cite ... phhhttttt

[WinnieTheKhwai]

50% pay raises for Kamnan and Headmen! Hundreds of Baht for school uniforms for all! 2000 baht for the monthly low paid! Farmers debt forgiveness! 1 billion for health care clinics sand workers! Free electric and water continued! BJT daily allowances and sign up fees that have PTP MPs drueling! Doesnt look like they are abandoning the electoral system to me. Looks more like they and their current allies are making sure they will win the next election or at least increasing the chances. Those PADites and supporters that do still want New Politics and there are some probably wont like these developments at all.

Well, who knows what they might like or dislike. I don't think there's a whole lot of unity right now on either the PAD side or on the Red side for that matter. Many on the PAD side just wanted a government catering more to the urban middle classes, i.e. a Democrat government. They're basically happy and have no incentive whatsoever to rock the boat further.

At the same time on the Red side, a faction are just fans of Thaksin, while others may have genuine concerns for developing a Thai political system that's more democratic and not a form of managed democracy that we see today.

It's looking a like a stable situation however with nobody really being able to do anything major. As we've seen, many people even on this forum support managed democracy, and frankly for foreigners this could be a good thing. (Esp those foreigners thinking mainly about themselves and not Thailand's future and political freedoms)

[Steve2UK]

Nowhere does it mention who the 'military' or army was ... for all you or I know from that article is that there were some 'army' emblazoned riot shields. Were they on loan to the Police? were there actual troops on loan to the police? But NO Army interference was noted in that entire article ... just a few pics showing riot shields

Yes, and the earth is flat...

Were military units deployed? Hmmmm........ tricky one.

There were hundreds of soldiers in the compound, with riot control gear. Soldiers relaxing on the ground stood and formed up, in a solid phalanx on the inside of the ornate fence.

http://blogs.straitstimes.com/2009/2/1/red-shirts-send-strong-signal

Pic shows rather more than just shields - looks like full army camouflage/riot gear, insignia etc (shame I don't know the commander personally - I could give him a credit here).

But, hey it's a blog in a newspaper......... so we can't let ourselves be taken in by that .

So, let's see............

March peaceful, at Govt House

By: BangkokPost.com

Published: 31/01/2009 at 11:46 PM

United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) protesters broke through all police and military barricades after a two-hour march and arrived at the gate of the Government House before midnight on Saturday.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/13...without-clashes

Hmmmm ...."broke through" - sounds like the police and military did try to stop them?

Police, soldiers ready for UDD

By: BangkokPost.com

Published: 31/01/2009 at 06:45 PM

Police and soldiers on Saturday evening jointly maintained security around Government House to prevent United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) demonstrators from breaking into the state compound.

The red-shirt protesters were scheduled to arrive at Government House at around 9pm, according to the UDD leaders.

Officers from the Crime Suppression Division, the Metropolitan Police Bureau and the Special Branch Police together with companies of soldiers from the Royal Thai Army and the Royal Thai Navy spread around Government House to keep the demonstrators from entering the compound.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/13...s-ready-for-udd

But....... that's only one national newspaper - surely there must be more elsewhere? Oh - it seems there is:

Protesters reach Government House's main gate

Red-shirted protesters fully occupied the Nakhon Pathom Road in front of the main gate of the Government House around midnight, with slight resistance from the troops of police and soldiers.

As their leaders said, they are prepared to leave the scene once they submit the requests.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...newsid=30094709

Hmmm........ "slight resistance" - seems again like the police and military did try to stop them?

Show of red force

By The Nation

Red-shirted supporters of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra showed their force late Saturday night by successfully breaking through barricades of police and soldiers to reach the fence of the Government House complex.

Following is the chronology of the incidents when the protesters began marching from Sanam Luang until dispersing from Government House:

<snipped for brevity>

Protesters managed to remove the barbed wires and moved forward. They walked past the power generator trucks and reached another defence line at the Misakawan Intersection before reaching the road that is next to the fence of the front of the Government House.

At the intersection, protesters encountered lines of police and soldiers, which were backed up with two detention trucks.

11:35 pm: While protesters were confronting soldiers, four explosions were heard. Officials opened the gate to allow reporters and some soldiers to go inside the Government House compound. The explosions were apparently noises of firecrackers lit by a protester.

<snipped for brevity>

Sunday

0:05 am: Central Investigation Bureau Commissioner Pol Lt Gen Teeradej Rodphothong would not give in to the protesters' demand. The angry protester pushed back the line of police and soldiers and reached the road next to the fence of the front of Government House. Protesters also threw bottles at security officials behind the fence. Soldiers and police formed lines to surround the fence and many were stationed inside the compound.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/search/rea...newsid=30094715

Well, call me irresponsible....... but, on the balance of probabilities, it does look to me like the military were deployed and did resist - just not very vigorously and so it all passed off pretty peacefully....... for which all concerned (protesters, police and military) should be congratulated.

OK, folks - sorry for the interruption and back to the topic...........

[Note to Mods: I know it's usually considered bad etiquette to highlight items in quotes from publications - but I have done so for a reason that should be understandable and in a way that makes it entirely clear that they are my highlights and do not appear in the original]

[grandpops]

I believe that when i see PAD allowing the Red Shirts holding a meeting undisturbed in their strongholds.

the rest is just about your inability to see what actually happens in Thailand

What is that now? Running out of reasonable arguments you have to resort to insulting accusations?

You aren't arguing that BKK is a Yellow stronghold are you? As for the rest .. you never once answered anything

Pehaps you havn't had it explained to you properly. We are not answerable to you, or any of the other PAD apologists.

If you look at todays tourism thread, you will see the Bank of Thailand estimate the PAD damage through the airport closures at 290 Billion Baht.

Perhaps they should compensate the country before they think about ruining whats left of the season up in Chiang Mai.

[hateful violence-inciting prose deleted]

[jdinasia]

I just saw Steve's MODIFIED posts from those papers and it does appear that military were there!

Wow that means by the reasoning used above that they were in collusion with the REDS!

[sbk]

Start playing nice, drop the name calling, the baiting, the insults and the childish tit for tat or warnings will be handed out to ALL participants.

[samgrowth]

It is the army alright. I think we have enough proof. Stop claiming that they are not.

[Journalist]

This notion has somehow entrenched itself in minds of some of our members. Some red supporters find the idea of free political campaigning abhorring, some think that it needs to be put down. Ironically they might be the same ones that call PAD "fascist".

Its a free country and they can rally wherever they like

There are Italian Fascist parallels with PAD, in the sense that it stands for upper class rule buttressed by manufactured mass enthusiasm.

PAD doesn't have similarity though with German National Socialism, - where, although masses were roused to enthusiasm, it was never in order to buttress an upper class, and it was not led by a class-oriented politician. Perversely, Thaksin is more the National Socialist.

Thailand is between the rock and the hard place !

[sriracha john]

Thaksin is more the National Socialist.

A more accurate description that do revolve around quite unlike European counterparts would be Southeast Asian tyrannical despotic dictator along the lines of Marcos and Suharto.

[justanothercybertosser]

PAD doesn't have similarity though with German National Socialism, - where, although masses were roused to enthusiasm, it was never in order to buttress an upper class, and it was not led by a class-oriented politician. Perversely, Thaksin is more the National Socialist.

Thailand is between the rock and the hard place !

Thaksin was authoritarian, but there is no similarity between him and German National Socialism - no revolutionary "kampfzeit", no extreme racism, no ideology of a superior race.

Also the comparison between Thaksin and Suharto is out of order. Suharto came to power by a coup, and has killed somewhere around one million people in only the first two years of his reign.

PAD is a proto-fascist organization still in the process of building its ideology. So far the trend has been increasingly right wing. We should in a few years know more of where exactly in the history of revolutionary right wing movements we can place the PAD.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin is more the National Socialist.

A more accurate description that do revolve around quite unlike European counterparts would be Southeast Asian tyrannical despotic dictator along the lines of Marcos and Suharto.

PAD doesn't have similarity though with German National Socialism, - where, although masses were roused to enthusiasm, it was never in order to buttress an upper class, and it was not led by a class-oriented politician. Perversely, Thaksin is more the National Socialist.

Thaksin was authoritarian, but there is no similarity between him and German National Socialism - no revolutionary "kampfzeit", no extreme racism, no ideology of a superior race.

Also the comparison between Thaksin and Suharto is out of order. Suharto came to power by a coup, and has killed somewhere around one million people in only the first two years of his reign.

We are in agreement that there are more similarities with Marcos than with Suharto.

[Journalist]

Yes, of course there are a myriad of differences between Thaksin and Hitler ! I realise that.

What I was getting at was that National Socialism was classless whereas Fascism was class politics.

I agree about the Ferdinand Marcos comparison. I haven't asked the question recently, but when I first came to Asia I often asked Filipinas, 'who was the best President of the Philippines?" And I never got an answer other than 'Marcos' ! So i'd reply 'You're mad, he was a disgrace, why not Aquino or Ramos?' and they'd say ' no we like Marcos'.

[Plus]

Its a free country and they can rally wherever they like

Last PAD meeting in Udon was violently dispersed by the reds. And so were meetings in Chiang Mai.

It's sad that apparently Phuket reds didn't get a warm welcome either, their attacks on PAD last year probably have set off a chain reaction, started a cycle of violence. That is another reason why it had to be nipped in the bud. Unfortunately the most the govt did was to take off the lynch mob leader of government salary. Not enough.

Thaksin is more the National Socialist.

Somehow I don't feel any better.

I also don't buy the argument that Thaksin was somehow classless. Despite all the rhetoric and endorsement from communists like Giles, he entrenched the power and position of the rich manyfold. Despite differences in the later years, ALL the rich people in Thailand had the biggest run in their lives, on the fastest gravy train ever, and his government relied on their support more than on anything else.

Just a quick test - the "people power" he relies on now can't get him anywhere. Without support of the upper echelons of the society he is nothing.

[Journalist]

Classless means that one can appeal to both sides.

He didn't say 'i'm a politician who you should vote for if you are poor and want change' or 'i'm a politician you should vote for if you are rich and don't want change'

i.e he wasn't left or right wing in the class sense. His was a nationalist platform.

yes, TS did help the industrialists and tycoons.

Being classless means that one can look to both the industrialists and the proles.

[dee123]

PAD backers (Army, some BKK Chinese very wealthy families, unmentionable, etc.) have ordered Sonthi out to the provinces to ram home the advantage. Last thing they want is so-far-unimpressive Mark to balls it up and lose an election to their mortal enemy, Thaksin.

SPOT ON AGAIN BRIGGSY. You, the Western media and people can see this.Many Thais now are also seeing it this way too. Won't be long

[dee123]

This notion has somehow entrenched itself in minds of some of our members. Some red supporters find the idea of free political campaigning abhorring, some think that it needs to be put down. Ironically they might be the same ones that call PAD "fascist".

Its a free country and they can rally wherever they like

There are Italian Fascist parallels with PAD, in the sense that it stands for upper class rule buttressed by manufactured mass enthusiasm.

PAD doesn't have similarity though with German National Socialism, - where, although masses were roused to enthusiasm, it was never in order to buttress an upper class, and it was not led by a class-oriented politician. Perversely, Thaksin is more the National Socialist.

Thailand is between the rock and the hard place !

don't get technical journalist ,keep it simple for us simpletons: Thai Nutter/ German Nutter/ Italian Nutter who just ALL happened to use Proppaganda:D

Edited February 18, 2009 by dee123

[tartempion]

Perhaps PAD is stressing that Thailand is a free country and people are free to think and campaign for whatever they want.

If people of Udon et al will see that it's possible to express different political opinions peacefully it would restrict reds penchant for blood and violence, it would be a big step towards reconciliation.

Yep, free to occupy Government house and close down the countries main airport for a week.

Try do that in any European capital.

And oh, Last Saturday, never saw Big C and Lotus parking lot that empty.

Seems people of Udon decided to stay at home to show respect for freedom of opinion.

Went for breakfast this Monday morning at Charoen hotel, the area behind the hotel was occupied with big tents: sleeping grounds for the yellows who invaded Udon, don't much think they were part of the Udon people

[Plus]

He didn't say 'i'm a politician who you should vote for if you are poor and want change' or 'i'm a politician you should vote for if you are rich and don't want change'

Actually, he did, though his message to the rich wasn't sent from national TV stations.

I don't see TRT as particularly different from Italian fascists, especially the role big business played in formulating government policies.

[justanothercybertosser]

Yes, of course there are a myriad of differences between Thaksin and Hitler ! I realise that.

What I was getting at was that National Socialism was classless whereas Fascism was class politics.

I agree about the Ferdinand Marcos comparison. I haven't asked the question recently, but when I first came to Asia I often asked Filipinas, 'who was the best President of the Philippines?" And I never got an answer other than 'Marcos' ! So i'd reply 'You're mad, he was a disgrace, why not Aquino or Ramos?' and they'd say ' no we like Marcos'.

That is not entirely true.

Even though many aristocrats did support Hitler, he still was very anti-aristocratic. Read his rants against aristocracy in "Mein Kampf", for example. Even though Thaksin's opponents accuse him of republicanism, there is no evidence that Thaksin actually harbored those thoughts. Hitler had such a disdain against parliamentarism that when he came to power, he dissolved parliament. Thaksin didn't.

There is no extreme racism in TRT, and one of the main pillars of National Socialims is exactly that.

Nowadays almost every large political party in the west has an appeal throughout the classes. That though does not make them similar to National Socialists. There are far more differences between National Socialism and Thaksin than similarities.

Thaksin was authoritarian, no doubt about that, but he was no dictator. I would put him somewhere between Mahatir and Lee Kuan Yew.

[ballpoint]

Yes, of course there are a myriad of differences between Thaksin and Hitler ! I realise that.

What I was getting at was that National Socialism was classless whereas Fascism was class politics.

I agree about the Ferdinand Marcos comparison. I haven't asked the question recently, but when I first came to Asia I often asked Filipinas, 'who was the best President of the Philippines?" And I never got an answer other than 'Marcos' ! So i'd reply 'You're mad, he was a disgrace, why not Aquino or Ramos?' and they'd say ' no we like Marcos'.

That is not entirely true.

Even though many aristocrats did support Hitler, he still was very anti-aristocratic. Read his rants against aristocracy in "Mein Kampf", for example. Even though Thaksin's opponents accuse him of republicanism, there is no evidence that Thaksin actually harbored those thoughts. Hitler had such a disdain against parliamentarism that when he came to power, he dissolved parliament. Thaksin didn't.

There is no extreme racism in TRT, and one of the main pillars of National Socialims is exactly that.

Nowadays almost every large political party in the west has an appeal throughout the classes. That though does not make them similar to National Socialists. There are far more differences between National Socialism and Thaksin than similarities.

Thaksin was authoritarian, no doubt about that, but he was no dictator. I would put him somewhere between Mahatir and Lee Kuan Yew.

Thaksin may or may not have harboured republican thoughts, but in todays Thailand it is understood that any one who intentionally makes an enemy of Prem is making a statement in that direction. Forget about what Prem stood for in the past, these days he is seen as the symbol of the Privy Council, and the power behind it.

Thaksin also had no need to dissolve the parliament, having recently bought the place.

[Plus]

It's been seventy years since Hitler and obviously Thaksin couldn't behave in exactly the same way.

He didn't dissolve the parliament, true, but that doesn't mean he gave it, or democracy any serious consideration. He hasn't appeared in parliament for years and couldn't care less what they were doing there. He had it under absolute control anyway. In this day and age it's impossible to dissolve the parliament and maintain any kind of international profile.

As for racism - again, open displays are now impossible. In reality we had more than enough talk about superiority of Asian race. He even set up regional political bodies open to Asians only. Certainly not as bad as Hitler, but to say that Thaksin hasn't played the racial card at all is disingenuous.

And Thaksin had enough rants about aristocracy setting out to get him, too, long before PAD. According to Chang Noi, he accused the old system as being behind Southern violence.

[Journalist]

Even though many aristocrats did support Hitler, he still was very anti-aristocratic. Read his rants against aristocracy in "Mein Kampf", for example.

He was anti aristocrat.

For obvious reasons he did not want the Kaiser's son back on a restored throne.

And:-

When he started out most of his Field Marshals had a 'Von' in their name. By the end, those stiff-necked Prussians were nowhere to be seen!

He did work with the big tycoons though, and there was a symbiotic relationship for each others mutual benefit.

[h90]

Even though many aristocrats did support Hitler, he still was very anti-aristocratic. Read his rants against aristocracy in "Mein Kampf", for example.

He was anti aristocrat.

For obvious reasons he did not want the Kaiser's son back on a restored throne.

And:-

When he started out most of his Field Marshals had a 'Von' in their name. By the end, those stiff-necked Prussians were nowhere to be seen!

He did work with the big tycoons though, and there was a symbiotic relationship for each others mutual benefit.

Well with the Prussians: Hitler was Austrian and long in Bavaria and that does not mix well together with the Prussians.

Even the language is horrible for the other area.....

He was anti aristocrat but I wouldn't take that as a good argument.

[justanothercybertosser]

It's been seventy years since Hitler and obviously Thaksin couldn't behave in exactly the same way.

He didn't dissolve the parliament, true, but that doesn't mean he gave it, or democracy any serious consideration. He hasn't appeared in parliament for years and couldn't care less what they were doing there. He had it under absolute control anyway. In this day and age it's impossible to dissolve the parliament and maintain any kind of international profile.

As for racism - again, open displays are now impossible. In reality we had more than enough talk about superiority of Asian race. He even set up regional political bodies open to Asians only. Certainly not as bad as Hitler, but to say that Thaksin hasn't played the racial card at all is disingenuous.

And Thaksin had enough rants about aristocracy setting out to get him, too, long before PAD. According to Chang Noi, he accused the old system as being behind Southern violence.

The rise to power by the Democrat Party and their involvement with the PAD show even less respect for the parliament and the law than Thaksin had. Thaksin has to be seen in context. Thaksin never had the parliament under "absolute control". TRT had the absolute majority, but at no point was Thaksin able to absolutely control his own party. Thaksin managed the different faction of his party rather well for a considerable time, until Sondhi, Chamlong, Sanoh, etc decided to split, but no more.

I do not understand your point of regional political bodies only open for Asians. What has that to do with racism? This is Asia, isn't it? Or are we going to invite Thailand now into the EU, or into Nafta?

I don't want to go here into the complex problem in the South, but there are more than a few academic studies available that do describe the Democrat Party patronage networks in the three southern provinces, and the problems they caused in terms of economical and political development in these provinces.

Thaksin was authoritarian, he had certain disdain towards parliamentary democracy. But that does not make him in any way similar to Hitler, or any other of the here mentioned dictators.

[justanothercybertosser]

Even though many aristocrats did support Hitler, he still was very anti-aristocratic. Read his rants against aristocracy in "Mein Kampf", for example.

He was anti aristocrat.

For obvious reasons he did not want the Kaiser's son back on a restored throne.

And:-

When he started out most of his Field Marshals had a 'Von' in their name. By the end, those stiff-necked Prussians were nowhere to be seen!

He did work with the big tycoons though, and there was a symbiotic relationship for each others mutual benefit.

True. But that still leaves more blatant differences between Thaksin and Hitler than similarities.

National Socialism is heavily based on leader oriented extreme nationalist and racist ideology, and i just can't see any of that in TRT.

Just because Thaksin was authoritarian, and his dual track economy (now also adopted by the Democrat Party but re-labelled "economic stimulus program") combined the needs of the poor and the corporations, makes him no National Socialist.

Edited February 18, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[justanothercybertosser]

Thaksin may or may not have harboured republican thoughts, but in todays Thailand it is understood that any one who intentionally makes an enemy of Prem is making a statement in that direction. Forget about what Prem stood for in the past, these days he is seen as the symbol of the Privy Council, and the power behind it.

Thaksin also had no need to dissolve the parliament, having recently bought the place.

Not really.

Samak Sundaravej has made more than a few harsh statements against his archenemy Prem, but he would be the last person anybody could accuse of republicanism.