Promises, Promises

[Bone-tired]

For all the flames about dirt-bags coming to Thailand to teach, a small reality check: Businesses must have a certain minimum capital and 4 Thai nationals for every alien they employ. Teaching ends up being the default job even if you are qualified to repair the engines on a 777. The banks could certainly use more efficient procedures, but that's partly due to Bank of Thailand and local practice. Those not teaching usually end up working in logistics/freight forwarding or something else connected to export. Which is not to say that even there that you will be paid as well as the locals. Several banks refuse to allow aliens to even open savings accounts without a work permit - which is not founded but done anyway.

One could go to court - the Civil Court is on Ratchadapisek (cn take the subway/underground most of the way there) so long as you are willing to fork over as a deposit, 3% of the claimed value of the action. There are procedures for filing as a poor person (in forma pauperis in the west) and the court *might* appoint a translator for you but that's doubtful. Maybe 3 to 5 % of the lawyers in Thailand speak English, so the gene pool is already pretty small.

Companies routinely promise work permits and don't deliver. Why? Because they don't have to. They can pay taxes on your salary so they don't have a problem with the Revenue Department but the Labor Court, on Rama 4, is extremely employer oriented and most of the "judges" aren't even trained as lawyers. If you don't have an extremely competent translator and try and do it on your own, and are owed any substantial sum of money, say goodnight, as the probability of collecting are miniscule.

This despite the fact that it is a crime in Thailand to pay someone less than what is offered. Not a civil problem, a CRIMINAL problem for the employer. Additionally, if the employer loses in Labor Court, they pay a fine twice as much as the amount owed, so it is easier to "enhance" the judges retirement plan than it is to pay you.

Should you then try and take on a Thai in criminal court you will quickly discover that the COURTS DO NOT ALLOW TRANSCRIPTS! The *judges* make up the transcripts summaries. Transcript summaries are then typed up by the court's clerk and all attending parties and their attorneys are required to sign/initial. You have the option of refusing to sign which the judge is required to note before finalizing.

It is routine for foreigners to hear locals testify that they have lied about what they said before and for the judge to disregard the lie and accept it as truth. It's even fine for someone to say that he/she's a lawyer and act as one without being a lawyer - even though the law states that the judge is *required* to have such persons arrested immediately and jailed. Since registration is a variable item here, make sure that you have your attorney show you their bar card - it's yellow and has a termination date stamped on it.

Appeals are supposed to be forwarded to the appropriate appeallate body within 1 month of the final lower court determination. Don't count on your lawyer to follow through - check yourself that it has happened. And check with the appellate body.

For those intending on staying or perhaps getting married and thinking of buying a house - banks might give you a mortgage (assuming you have a work permit) but you will have to show you are making over 100,000 Baht/month and then only for 12 years. At the moment you can functionally forget about buying a verhicle for anything less than cash - although legally speaking they're much easier to repossess. Houses have a 5 year wait for foreclosure.

As far as collecting from Thai businesses, plan on at least 180 days, more likely 1 year before complete payment. If it's enough, you could go to Bankruptcy/Insolvency Court but take a long hard look at TPI to understand the rocky road that put's you on.

In short, collecting what you have agreed upon is, imho, something of a rarity in Thailand where contracts are written in sand, not Sanskrit. For those who feel compelled to stay (without having their own business) a phrase to get translated:

"Doesn't matter; Up to you; Pay for me."

[sriracha john]

Appreciate all your research and for pointing out the plethora of shortcomings in Thai law...certainly doesn't make for a level field.

[thaihome]

Except for your last statement "In short, collecting what you have agreed upon is, imho, something of a rarity in Thailand ", everything you say can be true. The company I work for (American multi national) has been doing business in Thailand for well over 20 years and we have collected everything due to us. Even from some bankrupt companies after '97. It took a couple of years, but we collected.

My main disagreement is you seem to think this treatment is limited to foreigners and foreign companies. Thais and Thai owned companies have all the same problems.

TH

[pedro01]

For all the flames about dirt-bags coming to Thailand to teach, a small reality check: Businesses must have a certain minimum capital and 4 Thai nationals for every alien they employ. Teaching ends up being the default job even if you are qualified to repair the engines on a 777. The banks could certainly use more efficient procedures, but that's partly due to Bank of Thailand and local practice. Those not teaching usually end up working in logistics/freight forwarding or something else connected to export. Which is not to say that even there that you will be paid as well as the locals. Several banks refuse to allow aliens to even open savings accounts without a work permit - which is not founded but done anyway.

  One could go to court - the Civil Court is on Ratchadapisek (cn take the subway/underground most of the way there) so long as you are willing to fork over as a deposit, 3% of the claimed value of the action. There are procedures for filing as a poor person (in forma pauperis in the west) and the court *might* appoint a translator for you but that's doubtful. Maybe 3 to 5 % of the lawyers in Thailand speak English, so the gene pool is already pretty small.

   Companies routinely promise work permits and don't deliver. Why? Because they don't have to. They can pay taxes on your salary so they don't have a problem with the Revenue Department but the Labor Court, on Rama 4, is extremely employer oriented and most of the "judges" aren't even trained as lawyers. If you don't have an extremely competent translator and try and do it on your own, and are owed any substantial sum of money, say goodnight, as the probability of collecting are miniscule.

   This despite the fact that it is a crime in Thailand to pay someone less than what is offered. Not a civil problem, a CRIMINAL problem for the employer. Additionally, if the employer loses in Labor Court, they pay a fine twice as much as the amount owed, so it is easier to "enhance" the judges retirement plan than it is to pay you.

   Should you then try and take on a Thai in criminal court you will quickly discover that the COURTS DO NOT ALLOW TRANSCRIPTS! The *judges* make up the transcripts summaries. Transcript summaries are then typed up by the court's clerk and all attending parties and their attorneys are required to sign/initial. You have the option of refusing to sign which the judge is required to note before finalizing.

   It is routine for foreigners to hear locals testify that they have lied about what they said before and for the judge to disregard the lie and accept it as truth. It's even fine for someone to say that he/she's a lawyer and act as one without being a lawyer - even though the law states that the judge is *required* to have such persons arrested immediately and jailed. Since registration is a variable item here, make sure that you have your attorney show you their bar card - it's yellow and has a termination date stamped on it.

   Appeals are supposed to be forwarded to the appropriate appeallate body within 1 month of the final lower court determination. Don't count on your lawyer to follow through - check yourself that it has happened. And check with the appellate body.

   For those intending on staying or perhaps getting married and thinking of buying a house - banks might give you a mortgage (assuming you have a work permit) but you will have to show you are making over 100,000 Baht/month and then only for 12 years. At the moment you can functionally forget about buying a verhicle for anything less than cash - although legally speaking they're much easier to repossess. Houses have a 5 year wait for foreclosure.

   As far as collecting from Thai businesses, plan on at least 180 days, more likely 1 year before complete payment. If it's enough, you could go to Bankruptcy/Insolvency Court  but take a long hard look at TPI to understand the rocky road that put's you on.

   In short, collecting what you have agreed upon is, imho, something of a rarity in Thailand where contracts are written in sand, not Sanskrit. For those who feel compelled to stay (without having their own business) a phrase to get translated:

"Doesn't matter; Up to you; Pay for me."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BS

Despite what you say - since I have been in Thailand I have.....

Got 2 jobs doing what I am qualified to do (IT) - never had to consider teaching - 25 Thais in the current company & 1 me - so the 4 Thais per farang rule is hardly a restriction unless you want to work in a very small business.

The capital requirements for hiring a farang are so small for any decent sized company that it's laughable to even mention it. 4 million Baht isn't it ? $100K - that's peanuts.

What the minimum hires & capital requirement does do is try to prevent people setting up Mickey Mouse companies to get themselve a work permit to stay here.

I have taken a Thai company to court for non-payment of my BONUS & was awarded $30K. The Thai company didn't pay, so we reposessed all their hardware & furniture. They still didn't pay, so we took them to criminal court & won.

The judge was well qualified - she was a retired high court judged and gave me a fair hearing.

I borrowed money for a car here - put 50% down & paid the other 50% over 12 months. Could have had longer but didn't need it. A foreigner is considered a higher default risk, so just pay more of the prinicpal & they'll be OK - their ass is covered.

I have a 15 year mortgage on my house in Bangkok and have been offered a mortgage on the second house I am buying in Pattaya.

Perhaps you aren't being mistreated because you are a foreigner. Perhaps you are being mistreated because you are YOU

Have you taken a moment to wonder why you get treated this way ???

It's not handed to you on a plate here, for sure but it's certainly easier than you make out....

Edited January 26, 2005 by pedro01

[taxexile]

for those who would like to see what MAY happen to foriegners when they seek justice in the courts here i recommend a look at the cases highlighted on the website below.

this section of the website has been banned by some web providers in thailand so you may not be able to access it.

the cases are lengthy and will take a while to read through but will prove informative and give some insight as to how some of the courts work here some of the time with some foriegners.

to the poster who succeeded in getting his 30,000 back , well done.

but if you are fighting for something more than , with respect , just 30,000 , then you should be prepared to come up against some pretty unjust tactics in your search for justice.

i have absolutely no experience of the thai judicial system and hope i never gain any. my opinions come from what i have read and what i have been told by those who have been through the courts here.

Adventures in Thai Justice: Four real-life case studies of foreigners' experiences

in the Thai legal system, and the indifference of the Thai authorities to ...

www.camblab.com/thai_02.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

[pedro01]

for those who would like to see what MAY happen to foriegners when they seek justice in the courts here i recommend a look at the cases highlighted on the website below.

this section of the website has been banned by some web providers in thailand so you may not be able to access it.

the cases are lengthy and will take a while to read through but will prove informative and give some insight as to how some of the courts work here some of the time with some foriegners.

to the poster who succeeded in getting his 30,000 back , well done.

but if you are fighting for something more than , with respect , just 30,000 , then you should  be prepared to come up against some pretty unjust tactics in your search for justice.

i have absolutely no experience of the thai judicial system and hope i never gain any.  my opinions come from what i have read and what i have been told by those who have been through the courts here.

Adventures in Thai Justice: Four real-life case studies of foreigners' experiences

in the Thai legal system, and the indifference of the Thai authorities to ...

www.camblab.com/thai_02.htm - 7k - Cached - Similar pages

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree - some scary stuff happens here but...

The initial post on this thread claims that:

- the only job you can get here is teaching, even if you are qualified elsewhere

- laws for employing foreigners are too restrictive ($100K & 4 Thais aint restrictive)

- employers won't sort out your work permit.

- you can't win in labour court - I'd say it's your best chance - if you have contracts

- even if you do get a job, you can't get a mortgage

- you can't borrow money for a car

All of these are incorrect in my experience.

I'd say the guy came here a little green in the gills, got screwed & is looking to lay blame elsewhere

[taxexile]

I'd say the guy came here a little green in the gills, got screwed & is looking to lay blame elsewhere

well he does sound like he needs an aspirin and a glass of hot milk.

[PvtDick]

The Labour Court is EXTREMELY employee-oriented, not the other way around. I'm too lazy to point out the other inaccuracies (and exaggerations) in this whiner's post.