Worried About The Legality Of My Bike!

[LopBuriJeff]

Bought a 2nd hand Kawasaki in good faith from a renowned big bike dealership in Bangkok about 2 years ago.

I was perfectly satisfied with it until last week when I discovered it was listed on a website as a stolen bike from japan

I'm pretty sure the Thai green book is legit as I went by myself to check the engine and frame number for the ownership transfer...

Import duty, taxes and insurance have been paid, all the numbers in the green book are matching with what is stamped on the bike, the date of entry on Thai soil even matches with the year it has been stolen in Japan.

Obviously the frame number hasn't been restamped as it appears like the same number and bike model on the website I was previously taking about...

I really need some advices here...

Is it considered legal in Thailand, as it apparently has all the proper registration? Would I be able to get an insurance for my bike?

In short, am I fully legal driving it or not?

PS: No way I will be able to get my money back, that's a certitude!

[thaicbr]

1st question where is this website, Thailand or Japan. 2nd if it is legit here do you think that the average BIB even looks at the internet. Dont worry about it. But if your are worrying so much. How much do you want for it and what Kawasaki is it?

Allan

[AnthonyR1]

^^ if you're registered then you can get insured, no problems.

what website lists stolen bikes?

[Travelmate]

Here ya go AntR1 check here.

http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~cbx/index-e.html

[xbusman]

A very high percentage of big bikes sold here are stolen. How high, no one really knows but the dealers have told me they think its close to 100%. Lets put aside the moral problem, buying and owning stolen property poses an ethical dilemma for me but not for everyone, and talk strictly about the potential ramifications.

All frames and engines exported and imported have to list their serial numbers on the documents. Now I can assure you that Japan, the EU and the US all punch those numbers into a computer to see if they show up as stolen. Therefore, its a pretty safe bet that the export Bill of Lading was not the same as the Import Bill of Lading. Thats pretty tough to do but in Thailand, all things can be done and obviously this is one of them.

So even if you have a legal green book and good import papers, something was dummied up on the way to get around the small detail of being hot goods.

About every ten years, Japans insurance group gets bent about the mass of stolen vehicles they are subsidizing to SE asia and Africa. The Japanese police descend in a foreign country and raise sand for a little while and then go home to karaoke. Other than that, nothing much happens, yet....

I do not think Thailand has either the ability, the will or the interest to sort this problem out. Too many higher ups making some serious money off the black market.

To answer your questions.

Is it legal? No, its never legal in any country to deal in or own stolen goods. There are international agreements in place requesting compliance with enforcement. So you are breaking the law somewhere, some how. Being that there is no law in Thailand, its hardly relevant. You comply with the laws in Thailand to the extent that they can possibly check and you could be reasonably expected to check.

Insurance? No problem at all but in the event you really need insurance to pay one day, there is a door in which they could escape paying you. Be aware of that however improbable.

[AnthonyR1]

Insurance? No problem at all but in the event you really need insurance to pay one day, there is a door in which they could escape paying you. Be aware of that however improbable.

well said bus!

[0Mix1up]

there in poses a question

would you knowingly buy and ride a stolen bike?

i dont think i would, bad kharma and all even though

if insured more a corporate crime than personal

[LopBuriJeff]

Thanks for the answers... Even though they are not really reassuring ! Yes, that is the website I was talking about.

No, I would not knowingly buy a stolen bike, that's for sure. It's also why I bought it in that shop for a very dear price and checked everything to make sure it was legit. It seems it wasn't enough.

But what am I supposed to do... Getting my money back is impossible! I'm not going to throw the bike away like that.

The thing that worries me the most is the insurance. I was planning to get a 1st class accident insurance, but not sure I will do it now

[0Mix1up]

oh jeff i was no way insinuating that you knew it was stolen

just posing a generic question to all.

it certainly is a sticky situation your in

paid up big and now stuck with a bike of ill repute.

sell it in parts? sell it to another unsuspecting buyer? punt it and keep it?

[xbusman]

Well, no one can fault you for making a western assumption when buying from an Eastern vendor. Takes a while to get the hang of how things are done here. The asian way of doing business is "dont ask, dont tell".

Now that you know, you are cornered into an ethical dilemma. The way I would do it is to try and contact the original owner and dump the ethical problem on him. I would go through the motions of doing the right thing with every expectation that there is no way in hel_l the owner would even contemplate taking possession of the bike.

I learned a little bit about what goes down in Japan and why it is such a problem. Despite all appearances to the contrary, the Japanese are indeed Asian. They share an aversion to things used, both as a matter of face and as a matter of karma. For whatever reasons, they love the latest and greatest. The used market, just like here, is terrible. Hard to sell anything used at any price. So to keep themselves in new vehicles, they pay the local Yakuza to disappear it for the insurance check. Japan is small with a terribly efficient police force, I mean efficient to the point of dont litter in your own backyard at midnight. So stolen goods are rare, exactly where would you hide it in a country that small anyway? Most of the thefts that end up here are complicit with the owners knowledge. Those websites that list stolen bikes are generally set up by the insurance companies.

The possibility that the Japanese owner wants the bike back is in my opinion far far smaller than the remotest possibility that you might have trouble with the Thai authorities on the paperwork. Besides bad karma, the expense of getting the bike back, the potential condition on return, and having to return the insurance money... well you get the idea.

The insurance company has already paid out. I doubt they are interested in paying a chunk of yen to get it boxed up and shipped to Japan. The freight is probably more than the bike is worth at this point.

I would have about a 95% expectation that they would either forget it or ask for a token payment to transfer Japanese ownership to you. Really, I doubt you would ever get an answer. If it did get sticky, I would take the Japanese letter into a thai court and sue the dealership. Thats the kind of thing Thailand and its courts hates to see in public. While you have no chance of winning in a Thai court, you might get a wee bit back to shut up and go away.

In the end you will have satisfied your high ethical standards, removed any doubt about the legality and insurance coverage, and be able to sleep better at night. In the future, when you go to buy a condo or a car, you will be a wiser consumer schooled in the ancient ways of asia.

Best of Luck

xbusman

[Kf6vci]

That's terrible! Still, you bought the bike in good faith and blowing the whistle would bring trouble and lead to the loss of your bike.

Can you afford to return the bike and face all the hassle?

If not - ride on. don't tell ever again.

Chris

[LivinLOS]

there in poses a question

would you knowingly buy and ride a stolen bike?

i dont think i would, bad kharma and all even though

if insured more a corporate crime than personal

Not a bats chance in hel_l I would buy a bike I knew to be nicked, and have always demanded a 'promise' the seller thought it was straight to the best of thier knowledge with unbooked bikes..

But if I was caught out like the OP.. I dont know how I would go about trying to undo the issue.. Having bought it with papers in the system thats tough..

[AnthonyR1]

Bought a 2nd hand Kawasaki in good faith from a renowned big bike dealership in Bangkok about 2 years ago.

which shop?

[LopBuriJeff]

Well, no one can fault you for making a western assumption when buying from an Eastern vendor. Takes a while to get the hang of how things are done here. The asian way of doing business is "dont ask, dont tell".

Now that you know, you are cornered into an ethical dilemma. The way I would do it is to try and contact the original owner and dump the ethical problem on him. I would go through the motions of doing the right thing with every expectation that there is no way in hel_l the owner would even contemplate taking possession of the bike.

I learned a little bit about what goes down in Japan and why it is such a problem. Despite all appearances to the contrary, the Japanese are indeed Asian. They share an aversion to things used, both as a matter of face and as a matter of karma. For whatever reasons, they love the latest and greatest. The used market, just like here, is terrible. Hard to sell anything used at any price. So to keep themselves in new vehicles, they pay the local Yakuza to disappear it for the insurance check. Japan is small with a terribly efficient police force, I mean efficient to the point of dont litter in your own backyard at midnight. So stolen goods are rare, exactly where would you hide it in a country that small anyway? Most of the thefts that end up here are complicit with the owners knowledge. Those websites that list stolen bikes are generally set up by the insurance companies.

The possibility that the Japanese owner wants the bike back is in my opinion far far smaller than the remotest possibility that you might have trouble with the Thai authorities on the paperwork. Besides bad karma, the expense of getting the bike back, the potential condition on return, and having to return the insurance money... well you get the idea.

The insurance company has already paid out. I doubt they are interested in paying a chunk of yen to get it boxed up and shipped to Japan. The freight is probably more than the bike is worth at this point.

I would have about a 95% expectation that they would either forget it or ask for a token payment to transfer Japanese ownership to you. Really, I doubt you would ever get an answer. If it did get sticky, I would take the Japanese letter into a thai court and sue the dealership. Thats the kind of thing Thailand and its courts hates to see in public. While you have no chance of winning in a Thai court, you might get a wee bit back to shut up and go away.

In the end you will have satisfied your high ethical standards, removed any doubt about the legality and insurance coverage, and be able to sleep better at night. In the future, when you go to buy a condo or a car, you will be a wiser consumer schooled in the ancient ways of asia.

Best of Luck

xbusman

Hi xbus, nice post.

To be honest, it's more the legal part that worries me more than the ethical one.

This bike has been in Thailand for about 10 years already, the original owner probably got the insurance money and doesn't care at all anymore.

My opinion about this is that if the bike has (apparently) the correct Thai registration papers, that I can pay taxes on it every year and have the government insurance. That when you take it to the Bangkok DMV to check the frame and engine number they say everything is ok...

Then that should mean it is legal in Thailand. Or am I wrong somewhere?

[dotcom]

You can buy insurance for any bike registered or unregistered.

What shop? Hope it wasn't Teera.

[dotcom]

btw I don't give a rats ass if my bike was stolen or not.

[xbusman]

Hi xbus, nice post.

To be honest, it's more the legal part that worries me more than the ethical one.

This bike has been in Thailand for about 10 years already, the original owner probably got the insurance money and doesn't care at all anymore.

My opinion about this is that if the bike has (apparently) the correct Thai registration papers, that I can pay taxes on it every year and have the government insurance. That when you take it to the Bangkok DMV to check the frame and engine number they say everything is ok...

Then that should mean it is legal in Thailand. Or am I wrong somewhere?

Well, I am no lawyer. You know what barstool legal opinion is worth. Less than the bandwidth this was sent on for sure.

It is my understanding that stolen goods are stolen goods. To knowingly own or traffic in stolen goods is illegal in all societies that claim to have laws. I think that excludes Burma, North Korea and Texas. There are UN agreements signed that cover such things as stolen goods, people trafficking and such. In the end, your bike is not legal anywhere other than back in the hands of the injured party, either the owner or the insurance company. Having a piece of paper issued by Thailand does not ameliorate that.

The probability that Thailand will ever look into your bike is (in my opinion, for what its worth) is very very low. Remember, something was dummied in the registration process to bypass listing the stolen frame on the Japanese export papers. So you have something falsified in your documents somewhere. Having something like that is a liability, and someday some official could give you heartburn over it should you run afoul of the wrong people. Avoid that on principle, and in the case of your motorcycle, in specific.

You are about as clean as its possible to be in Thailand when dealing with stolen goods. Legally, you live in a country without any semblance of law, so it hardly matters if its legal or not. This is like having an discussion over the shade of red in the house of the blind. If you are not bothered ethically about having someone elses pride and joy I would not get too hung up with the legalities in Thailand. Its nothing that in the worst possible scenario 10,000 baht could not fix.

[Lickey]

Perhaps the lack of model ID and purchase shop and all the info gleaned from you blokes, we will see a new "import shop" soon???

[Netfan]

Hey Jeff, just my 2cents, which isn't worth that much - you have already put the bike/book in your name? And then paid the annual tax? If so I would guess (but I'm no lawyer either) that you wont have any problems. as for any moral issues- a 10 year old bike - I think you answered that one yourself.