Andaman Storm Sinks Dive Boat: Seven dead

[MisterMan]

I must say that I think Dive Asia is one of the better operators and Jurgeon has always been very active in the dive community. I too hope they find the divers...

[newtronbom]

I must say that I think Dive Asia is one of the better operators and Jurgeon has always been very active in the dive community. I too hope they find the divers...

Dive Asia is one of the better operators in Phuket. Under normal conditions a slightly top heavy boat will be ok - angle of wave and size of wave out of nowhere can change that quickly though. 14 tons of fresh water on board, combined with wind and a large wave would easily upset that balance though.

[bsacbob]

I agree with Misterman Dive Asia are along with See Bee's one of the better dive operators, looking at the pictures it looks preety typical of the type of dive boat you would have built and use in Phuket, does anyone know if they were on a liveaboard trip or day boat, just hard to figure out the dive site location 9 miles off Patong.

[Rhodiebkk]

I agree with Misterman Dive Asia are along with See Bee's one of the better dive operators, looking at the pictures it looks preety typical of the type of dive boat you would have built and use in Phuket, does anyone know if they were on a liveaboard trip or day boat, just hard to figure out the dive site location 9 miles off Patong.

Evidently they were sailing back to Phuket after a 'liveabord trip' to the Similans.

They were passing West of Patong when tragedy struck.

[smartecosse]

they are a liveaboard and were returning from the similans as per normal to disembark customers the following morning at chalong

better we all wait to hear what the capt says tomorrow than speculate - for example they were not full of water or diesel as they were returning not leaving

hopefully the people still missing will all be found by the s&r guys and it will only be the boat that is lost not anyones life

[khunandy]

I must say that I think Dive Asia is one of the better operators and Jurgeon has always been very active in the dive community. I too hope they find the divers...

Dive Asia is one of the better operators in Phuket. Under normal conditions a slightly top heavy boat will be ok - angle of wave and size of wave out of nowhere can change that quickly though. 14 tons of fresh water on board, combined with wind and a large wave would easily upset that balance though.

Water storage is usually stored in lower tanks and actually acts as ballast. Typically, the more water on board the more stable the vessel is. You have to start thinking about weight below the waterline...that is what counts in stability.

[absolutelyBangkok]

Just spoke with a dive shop in Phuket, all the missing seem to have been recovered.

Well, maybe the dive shops want to protect each other. Business is miserable already, all they need is another bad Thai story to be published around the world ...

[thaiwanderer]

Thoughts with all those involved and their families.

Looks like it was a liveaboard returning from the similians so the fresh water and fuel tanks would have been a fair bit lighter than full capacity. Even when fully laden these types of boats do rock a bit when there is swell.

Edited March 9, 2009 by thaiwanderer

[khunandy]

This was likely a Rogue wave, or a Solaton (an undersea wave caused by a subsea current amplified by the continental shelf). I have worked offshore on a drill ship in the Andaman (Burma), we were hit by a soliton and it was quite powerful. You cant even see them coming. I can see how it would flip a top heavy boat if it was on the beam.

I applaud beameup and khunandy for reminding everyone not to jump to conclusions of blame before the facts are in.

Further, beameup has proposed an interesting possibility which has led me to learn something new:

"The striking feature of this wave is that an almost flat ocean surface evolves into a singular wave with high amplitude, as energy is sucked into the center part of the wave from the surrounding area of the ocean. The process is highly nonlinear and may appear as a mystery to those who observe this rare event. Such destructive waves have sunk a number of ships in the ocean. Moreover, after its unexpected appearance, the big wave disappears, restoring the relatively peaceful surface of the ocean." Rogue Ocean Waves .

The soliton theory is interesting, I have had a few years working in a Soliton environment in the Sth China Sea, sometimes up to six a day in the right season, but I have to say that I dont think this is a probability.

A Soliton is a sub sea wave and can move at a rate of over 15 knots per hour but it is not a big surface wave, it is more of a choppy area of waves caused by the subsea activity and opposite forces IE: Soliton one way- wind and current the other. It can move you quickly and uncontrollably off station and drag an anchor but not the rolling motion that could lead to water ingress and capsize.

A power blackout leading to total loss of control on the other hand will allow the vessel to be blown beam on to the waves and quickly enforce a rolling motion that can get out of hand very quickly. Diver access doors open to sea, port holes open to catch a breeze etc can catch water on a roll and believe me once the rolling action starts there is not much action that will stop it...especially when panic sets in amongst the crew and passengers.

New vessels are infamous for power blackouts due to bugs in the system I am sorry to say.

Edited March 9, 2009 by khunandy

[inmemorylsx]

No EPIRB? Didn't read weather forcast? I hate to say it... but if this happened anywhere else in the world the operator would be up on criminal charges.

Happens time and time again though, lack of regulation/enforcement casues loss of life, and slowly the tourist numbers drop.

I lost someone dear to me 3 years ago on a snorkeling trip with 20 other people around.

3 years later I can only say that the ocean or conditions change so quickly and when you realize something has gone wrong but not quite sure what it was, it is too late.

Again, I say. Lifejackets -- always! No alcohol while in the water and don't go off on your own.

I love Phuket and will always return but have a much stronger caution instinct as well as respect for the water as I am not a good swimmer.

Hope they find more survivors!

[khunandy]

If there were no EPIRBS on board, someone should be made to pay...and severely.

For those unfamiliar with these devices they are water activated positioning beacons, they transmit a signal to a satalite which is picked up very quickly around the world and a position fixed within 15 minutes or so, picking up the distress signal is not dependent on the country where it is activated but the response is the closest countries responsibility. Transmissions will also be made to any vessels in the area to assist in a search and rescue operation.

As far as my knowledge goes all commercial vessel should be fitted with EPIRB beacons by law, I dont know what the response time was between the vessel sinking and the search mission deployed but this needs to be looked into during the ensueing enquiries. They are cheap and they are life savers. I sincerely hope that they were on board.

[khunandy]

Actually, I think it is EPERB: Emergency Positioning Response Beacon.

Ahh wrong again, but here is the info

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question351.htm

Edited March 9, 2009 by khunandy

[Quero]

Actually, I think it is EPERB: Emergency Positioning Response Beacon

No, actually you had it right the first time: EPIRB: Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons

As for the soliton waves, of course never having experienced one, I write based only on what I've read. These are indeed not yet very well understood, but according to all sources I've seen, they do seem to have the potential to be monsters, far beyond what would be termed choppy water. They have been measured at up to 25 meters, I believe, and I've been looking at photos of a cargo vessel whose decks 75 feet above the water were submerged. Furthermore, according to the sources I've been reading, they can appear during squalls, particularly if the wind is blowing in the opposite direction to the tide. Not that this is necessarily what took place with the vessel in question, but it has been shown to be possible for medium-sized waves to merge with one another to form a wave large enough to swamp even a huge ship.

[JetsetBkk]

Please forgive my ignorance: Will someone please explain to me

the one big wave that came out of nowhere...how does this happen?

for a solid, non-speculative answer, it's best to wait for the TV interview with the staff member on board at the time of the incident, he'll be able to indicate the conditions at the time of the event.

I presume that was a facetious comment.

It seems to me that this happens every year at this time and nobody learns anything. It's like starting every year with zero knowledge of what happened the previous years.

I hope these lost divers turn up safe but, regrettably, I think that's unlikely.

Edited March 9, 2009 by JetsetBkk

[khunandy]

mfiskong,

After working at sea for over 10 years i wouldnt be surprised what happens out there, I can only write of my own experiences. I have come across Solitons in two places in my career, the first between Korea and Japan but that didnt affect the seastate very much, but as a pilot of subsea ROVs it certainly tossed us around like a washing machine on the seabed

The second location was in The Sth China Sea 250 kms East of Hong Kong and they were a regular occurance there, the planning of the oil field 20 years ago was based on their occurance. There was never any surface action wave height more than a metre or so, it was the speed of the water that was the hazard. The rig radar would pick them up 30 minutes before strike time and visually they were like bands of choppy , unsettled water but moving quite rapidly.

I am sure before long some offshore worker from that area will read this and vouch for the description.

I am more than willing to accept that however that the charactaristics of a Soliton would change with different sub sea topography.

If it has not been recorded 7 kms offshore from Patong before though, I doubt that it has occured before as they appear to be inherant to particular locations and environments and not haphazard locations.

[Quero]

khunandy, I certainly don't doubt your experience, and thank your for sharing it.

The latest report I've seen includes statements by the captain, who describes a "red wind" that spun his boat around and led to it capsizing.

Here's the report.

[khunandy]

khunandy, I certainly don't doubt your experience, and thank your for sharing it.

The latest report I've seen includes statements by the captain, who describes a "red wind" that spun his boat around and led to it capsizing.

Here's the report.

Thanks for the link mfiskong,

That is indeed tragic, it sounds like a water spout, a bit like an off shore tornado, I saw one recently and mentioned to a shipmate that I wouldn't want to be in it's path, he said he had experienced one once and it was far from pleasant. An offshore mini tornado was his description at the time and he said he had no desire to repeat the experience.

The most recent one I watched just descended from black clouds and curled its way down to the sea, once it touched down it increased in size and deepened in colour as if it was just sucking up unbelievable volumes of water, after 30 minutes or so it slowly retracted back into the clouds....

I do really advise anybody going on a boat of any size to take notice of where the life jackets and escape routes are, just rehearse it once in your head and it could save your life.

[Pseacraft]

EPIRB's may or may not have been of any use in this case - this would be dictated by what the 24/7 all weather search and rescue capabilities of the nations in the immediate area are. EPIRB is part of an international system that is monitored globally and locally much like the GMDSS is. I know we monitored 121.5 and 406 MHz as guard freqs at all times on the vessels I deployed on in my 20 years on the ocean and we had plenty of false alerts and fortunately none were real. The licensing of the vessel, as determined by it tonnage and purpose, will dictate what emergency alert equipage is on board. EPIRB's to my knowledge are completely voluntary and vessels of this type are generally not required to have GMDSS but again this is determined by the governing body of the nation of the vessels flag. All ocean going vessels, regardless of tonnage and type, are encouraged to have some type of equipage on board other than VHF and HF radios.

I am curious as to why the operator waited until well after sun rise to make official notification to the authorities. The vessel was due at 0200 and there was no radio communications between ship and shore in that time frame - radio range should not be an issue here, well within VHF range. Granted the authorities may have time limits before an emergency is declared but that was precious hours of daylight lost.

Regardless, this is a sad tragedy if the remaining persons can not be located safe But we can be thankful that 25 have been pulled from the an unforgiving sea in a somewhat timely manner.

Edit:

Water spouts are no joke! I have seen video on the internet of water spouts at work in an anchorage in Singapore. And their is a rather famous picture of a triple spout in the Gulf of Mexico from I think Hurricane Ivan a few years back. They are lucky.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Pseacraft

[sbk]

Posts have been deleted. The family members of the missing could very well read this so lets please try to keep the facetious off topic comments out of the thread, thanks.

[SteveB2]

Concerned to hear that some are still @ sea.

The German dive operators are normally the most reliable & efficiently run.

Am surprised on two counts:

1.why they didn't have an emergency transponder aboard that activates when a vessel goes down.

Especially as this was a new boat.

2. Looking at the images of the boat it does look remarkably 'top-heavy'.

The sinkings in the past have largely been down to 'operator error',

and the seas don't normally get high until next month.

But conditions can catch even the best seamen unawares.

Yep - An astute observation.

I have spent the last 12 years diving from vessels of this type all over Thailand... I concur with this gentlemens observation, though perhaps I will change the wording to "She looks INCREDIBLY top heavy"

Just a few years a go, one dive operator here in Pattaya (Nakluah Dockyard) launching a similar multi-storey vessel, and she literally capsized as soon as she had cleared the slip way. The designer and the dive school shall remain nameless to prevent blushes

Let me clearly state that boat building and the government inspection of completed vessels to local standards here in Thailand is comical.

From first hand experience I can also add that the licensing of the completed tubs together with the assignments of the government approved passenger load limits allowed on the decks, is also usually completely open to corruption . Pay the ship government ship surveyor some cash, and he'll pretty well give you a license for whatever passenger limit you want.

The boatyard, but more importantly the government ship surveyors appear to have no idea of even basic naval architecture, yet alone complex stability requirements... or even how to carry out a simple practical 'Heel Test' to confirm the maximum load limits, self righting capability. and load line placement.

I have never seen any formal 'Heel testing' testing carried out to a tourist boat anywhere here in Thailand. Step onto a locally built and licensed tourist boat of this type and you truly take your life into your own hands. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere other than lakes and mill ponds.

There are a few western outfits out here who build vessels to proven western designs with known stability to international standards, but they are very few and far between.

I could go on, and on, to list all the many faults that locally built tourists boats of this type have, but the mods would toast this email for sure. Enough to say, you won't find a straight piece of decent wood or a reliable weld anywhere on the vessel.

Strangely though, in this instance my instincts tell me that the fault likely does not lie with the dive tour operator, the boat builders, the boat captain, or the weather - even though there was a squall. After all, the local boat yard simply built the vessel according to a rough outline given to them by the dive tour operator, and the captain did the best job he could, handling a vessel begging to turn turtle on him.

No, the fault here likely lies with the government ship surveyor who granted this visibly top heavy and thus predictably unstable vessel a license to head off to sea, directly putting at risk the lives of everyone who boarded her ...and there are many like this operating at all the major tourist destinations here in Thailand.

SteveB2

[manarak]

here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freak_wave

maybe it was one of those.

• MS Bremen and Caledonian Star (South Atlantic, 2001) encountered 30-meter (98 ft) freak waves. Bridge windows on both ships were smashed, and all power and instrumentation lost. ^[17]
  
• Naval Research Laboratory ocean-floor pressure sensors detected a freak wave caused by Hurricane Ivan in the Gulf of Mexico, 2004. The wave was around 27.7 meters (91 ft) high from peak to trough, and around 200 meters (660 ft) long.^[20]
  
• Norwegian Dawn, (three waves in succession, off the coast of Georgia, 16 April 2005):
  

"The sea had actually calmed down when the 21 meter^[21] wave seemed to come out of thin air… Our captain, who has 20 years on the job, said he never saw anything like it."^[22]"The water exerted enough force to shear off the welds for the aluminum rail supports on the [ninth and tenth level] balconies of two cabins, allowing the teak balcony rails to break loose and crash into the cabin windows. The broken glass filling the drains compounded the water damage by allowing a large amount of water to enter the two cabins and damage the carpets in 61 other cabins. The ship’s operating at reduced speed when the waves hit probably limited the damage."^[23]

• Aleutian Ballad, (Bering Sea, 2005)
  

Footage of a rogue wave appears in an episode of Deadliest Catch. The wave cripples the vessel, causing the boat to tip onto its side. The boat manages to right itself; some of the crew suffers minor injuries. One of the only video recordings of a Rogue Wave.^[24]

• Norwegian Spirit, (off the coast of Tortola, January 2006)
  
• Brittany Ferries' MV Pont-Aven was struck by a wave estimated at between 40 feet (12 m) and 50 feet (15 m) in height during a Force 9 gale in the Bay of Biscay on 21 May 2006.^[25]
  
• In March 2007, Holland America's cruise ship MS Prinsendam was hit by a 21-meter (69 ft) tall rogue wave in the Antarctic segment around the tip of South America.
  
• At 5pm IST on July 13th, 2007, professional rock climber Michael Reardon (climber) was reported missing after he was hit by a "rogue wave" — in the words of an eyewitness — and swept out to sea, shortly after climbing down the 600 ft (180m) Fogher Cliff (Lat 51.9236; Long -10.3556) just west of Valentia Coast Guard Station in County Kerry, Ireland. A coastal search was immediately undertaken by the nearby Coast Guard lifeboat, a rescue helicopter, cliff rescue teams and local people, who searched unsuccessfully. As of 2008 his body has not been found.
  
• 05 February 2008 The ferry Riverdance was struck and disabled by a rogue wave in the Irish Sea on its journey from Northern Ireland to Heysham in Lancashire. ^[26]
  
• April 14, 2008 half a nautical mile off Kleinbaai, near Gansbaai, South Africa - freak wave hit tourists diving to see sharks. The shark diving boat capsized . Three tourists died, two were seriously injured and a number treated for shock. Multiple other shark boats witnessed the wave. ^{[27] [28][29][30][31][32][33]}
  
• In November 2008, a rogue wave was blamed for the deaths of three men at Point Mugu, California. Two other men were rescued from the water that swept all of them out to sea.^[34]
  
• It has also been suggested that these types of waves may be responsible for the loss of several low-flying aircraft, namely U.S. Coast Guard helicopters on Search and Rescue missions.^[35]
  

[JetsetBkk]

...boat building and the government inspection of completed vessels to local standards here in Thailand is comical...

I would change the last word to 'criminal'. But we've seen how they overload trucks and bikes, why not boats too? Just build another deck on top and cram more people/equipment in.

Still looking for 7 people according to MCOT news at midnight.

Hoping for a miracle.

[elektrified]

This incident is being reported on CNN. Another nail in the coffin for tourism in Thailand.

[Miami Bob]

Please forgive my ignorance: Will someone please explain to me

the one big wave that came out of nowhere...how does this happen?

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the possibility of a rouge wave. A very big wave suddenly coming from a different direction....it does happen on rare occasion.

[steelepulse]

Actually a rogue wave has been mentioned, but judging from the captain's account, it wasn't a rogue wave.

[LiveSteam]

Actually a rogue wave has been mentioned, but judging from the captain's account, it wasn't a rogue wave.

I don't believe it was a rogue wave, I believe it was high winds that blew that "elevator shaft" type of boat over and sunk it because I bet it didn't have any water tight compartments. Sometimes I see those dive boats leaving Chalong and when they steer hard over it takes a long time to right its self. I have been saying for years that these so called expert Thai boat builders are creating a disaster in waiting.

Well that's my 2¢ worth after 35 years at sea.

Sorry if any casualties,

LiveSteam

[HakimKlunker]

.... , I am surprised a new boat that size, could capsize so quickly! ....

Boats are made by people and they take it very serious of who is making them.

Rubbish in - rubbish out!

I produce boats in Thailand and so know how some competitors play with the life of their customers.

Registration and certification also is still at a quite low level and the (sometimes) inadequate qualification and carelessness of operators cause additional harm.

By the way: Our products never have sent a passenger down yet - without diving gear I mean For all others: we also make rescue boats!

When we are facing boats used in passenger traffic, it is amazing how little sense for safety there is: In Pattaya you see run-arounds having not even safety pumps or fixed tanks. Other boats are badly overloaded with crowds on the upper deck and so asking for a capsize. As we have seen in the recent case, often not even the basic safety equipment is found.

On the other hand: Many tourists enjoy low prices and should be aware that there is some cutting-the-corners going on; everyone has eyes to see and brains to think. Rejecting doubtful operation seems to be a suitable response. It will starve of the black sheep in the crowd and in return we stay alive and make sea traffic a little safer.

[Scott]

My sympathies to those that are missing and to their family and friends.

It must be hard to be a boat captain here--they are the ones who have a real problem 'fleeing' the scene.

[saneroad]

The body of a woman was found at 7am this morning. Several boats are searching the area for more. Navy divers may soon go down to search the sunken vessel.

Full story: http://phuketwan.com/tourism/first-light-s...rvivors-resume/

(PS in one of my earlier posts I said the boat was overcome by a wave. The captain said it was a 'squall' that caused the problem. My bad. Sorry for the confusion.)

Edited March 10, 2009 by saneroad

[Cuban]

As the dive company's web site has been changed - I have not seen any pictures other than those above in this thread, the top heavy comments look like they are right - however unless we can see what's below the waterline it is speculation.

I would guess the distubution of the passengers weight is the prime factor in the boat turning over, again I spectulate that those 'missing' might have been below at the time it turned, if indeed it turned over. Something iteresting on one side of the boat or wind loading.

I seem to recall that the last time a boat sank causing loss of life, loss of tourism and loss of face, that the powers that be said this would never happen again. It has, blame will probably be filtered down to someone that can not defend themselves, for whatever reason. And within a few weeks time it will be business as usual for the tourist boats.

I hope that this incident does gets internaional media attention.

-------------edit---------------

Storms and the Hundred Year Wave

Edited March 10, 2009 by Cuban