เหตุใด

[DavidHouston]

Please help me understand this sentence:

" โลกจะกลมหรือแบนสำคัญน้อยกว่าว่าเหตุใดเราจึงรู้ว่าโลกกลม"

Does this mean:

"Whether the world is round or flat is less important than how we know that the world is round."

"Our knowledge that the world is round or is flat is not as important as [knowing] the reason that we should know that the world is round."

My question revolves around the second part of the sentence. Is the emphasis on how the knowledge is gained or on the reason for us having the knowledge.

Thanks.

[krading]

เหตุใด why, (for) what reason, whatever reason

IMHO the reason we know the world is round seems to be more inportant than whether.

[wasabi]

I think it's saying. It's not important why the world is round or flat, it's just important we know it's round.

[DavidHouston]

Seems we have two different opinions. This is not a test; I am truly puzzled. To provide a bit of context here is the introductory sentence coupled with the target sentence:

' ในการเล่าเรียนความรู้ต่างๆ เรื่องของ "ความสัมพันธ์" สำคัญเสียยิ่งกว่าผลสรุปบั้นปลาย เช่น โลกจะกลมหรือแบนสำคัญน้อยกว่าว่าเหตุใดเราจึงรู้ว่าโลกกลม'

I would say that the first sentence says:

"In relating various pieces of information and analysis, the notion of "relationships" is more important the a summary of the final results."

Perhaps more colloquially, " . . . knowing the means is more critical than knowing the ends."

However, I am still unsure of the meaning of the second sentence and I very much appreciate all your opinions, especially Krading and Wasabi.

[kriswillems]

This would be my first guess:

Whether the world is round or flat is less important than the grounds we based ourselves on to conclude that the world is round.

[krading]

Awkward one for a learner like me but a good way to practice. So here I go again.

" เช่น โลกจะกลมหรือแบนสำคัญน้อยกว่าว่าเหตุใดเราจึงรู้ว่าโลกกลม"

"for instance, that the world will be round or flat is less important than the reason that we know it is round."

The knowledge, result, answer is not as important as the ability to get the result. The ability is more important than the result.

[CSS]

Please help me understand this sentence:

" โลกจะกลมหรือแบนสำคัญน้อยกว่าว่าเหตุใดเราจึงรู้ว่าโลกกลม"

Does this mean:

"Whether the world is round or flat is less important than how we know that the world is round."

"Our knowledge that the world is round or is flat is not as important as [knowing] the reason that we should know that the world is round."

My question revolves around the second part of the sentence. Is the emphasis on how the knowledge is gained or on the reason for us having the knowledge.

Thanks.

Your first sentence strikes me as falling more closely to the point. However, because of the conjunction of เหตุใด and จึง I think there is an element from your second sentence that needs incorporated into the first, namely the reasons why we know. To me it feels like the first sentence should shift a little bit to stress not exactly the "how" of how we know, but what do we place our reliance on for what we know/believe. Also, I think because of in the context รู้ might better be translated as belief.

"Whether the world is round or flat is less important than the reasons (than the foundation/than the basis for) why we believe that it is round."

Though that's all just conjecture and may not actually substantively change your sentence at all. Though I do feel that this sentence and yours are more to the point than your second option. Thanks for the sentence.

[aanon]

Seems we have two different opinions. This is not a test; I am truly puzzled. To provide a bit of context here is the introductory sentence coupled with the target sentence:

' ในการเล่าเรียนความรู้ต่างๆ เรื่องของ "ความสัมพันธ์" สำคัญเสียยิ่งกว่าผลสรุปบั้นปลาย เช่น โลกจะกลมหรือแบนสำคัญน้อยกว่าว่าเหตุใดเราจึงรู้ว่าโลกกลม'

I would say that the first sentence says:

"In relating various pieces of information and analysis, the notion of "relationships" is more important the a summary of the final results."

Perhaps more colloquially, " . . . knowing the means is more critical than knowing the ends."

However, I am still unsure of the meaning of the second sentence and I very much appreciate all your opinions, especially Krading and Wasabi.

I'm with your first rendition, David (+ Krading, Kriswillems). At the risk of boring repetition, here is my version:

"It's less important to know whether the world is flat or round than it is to understand how we know it is round."

I think that it is always going to be awkward to express, partly because of the logical problem that if we know the latter piece of information, then the 'flat or round' part is redundant. It would be more logical to leave it out:

"Knowing that the world is round is less important than understanding how we know this."

On the other hand, a 'proper' translation should really preserve the original structure.

On the first part of your passage, I'd think of เล่าเรียน as an extended version of เรียน and ผลสรุป as final conclusions.

I think an equivalent passage in English would be likely to mention "concepts". Is the "relationships" in the passage talking about relationships between concepts? Relationships between areas of academic pursuit? Or something else?

[tgeezer]

However, I am still unsure of the meaning of the second sentence and I very much appreciate all your opinions, especially Krading and Wasabi.

Knowing how much you like "-" why is ความสัมพันธ์ between them? In the second sentence เหตุใดเราจึงรู้ 'the reasons we know', covers it. Seems like you need to figure out another way of saying this which fits "ความสัมพันธ์"

ในการเล้าเรียน ความรู้ต่างๆ In imparting knowledge เรื่อง "ความสัมพันธ์" the story of 'how and why' is much more important than the final answer; for instance whether the Earth is round or flat is less important than the reasoning we used to know that it is flat.

[tgeezer]

I am trying to explain the inverted commas. I think that the word is familiar because it is used to describe the relationships between acts, incidents, time and place of plays books etc. The process would be familiar to people as a means of adding credibility. I think that 'background' fits.

[meadish_sweetball]

Knowing how much you like "-" why is ความสัมพันธ์ between them?

Not sure if this was a rhetorical question to which you already know the answer?

If it was not, then " " citation marks are often used in Thai newspaper texts for emphasis. I also found this usage odd at first.

[meadish_sweetball]

Knowing how much you like "-" why is ความสัมพันธ์ between them?

Not sure if this was a rhetorical question to which you already know the answer?

If it was not, then " " citation marks are often used in Thai newspaper texts for emphasis, where English would typically use italics or bold text. I also found this usage odd at first.

[DavidHouston]

Khun Geezer,

Early in the article come these sentences:

_________________________

ความรู้นั้นอาจแบ่งออกได้หยาบๆ เป็นสองอย่าง ความรู้ว่าอะไรเป็นอะไรเป็นความรู้อย่างแรก เช่น รู้ว่า มีมด, ใบไม้สีเขียว, มีลมพัด, มีความรู้สึกที่เรียกว่ารัก, หิว, โกรธ ฯลฯ ความรู้อย่างที่สองคือ "ความสัมพันธ์" เช่นรู้ว่าสีเขียวของใบไม้นั้นคือสารชนิดหนึ่ง ทำหน้าที่สังเคราะห์แสง เป็นอาหารของพืช

Knowledge can be roughly divided into two classes: basis knowledge about existence is the first type, for example, ants exist, leaves are green, the wind blows, feelings which we call love, hunger, and anger, etc. The second class involves "relationships", for example, the knowledge that the green color in leaves comes from a substance which functions to synthesize light to create food for the organism.

__________________________

The use of quotation marks in Thai newspaper articles is fairly common, as Meadish points out. In this article, Ajarn Nithi uses the quotation marks in every instance in which the word "ความสัมพันธ์" shows up in his article, although it is not clear to me why he does so. Perhaps the word "ความสัมพันธ์" is commonly used in Thai for personal relationships, not conceptual relationships. However, I do not see this limitation in the RID definition:

สัมพันธ, สัมพันธ์, สัมพันธน์ [สําพันทะ, สําพัน] ก. ผูกพัน, เกี่ยวข้อง, เช่น เขากับฉันสัมพันธ์กัน ฉันญาติ ข้อความข้างหลังไม่สัมพันธ์กับข้อความข้างหน้า. (ไว) น. การแยกความออกเป็นประโยค ๆ หรือส่วนต่าง ๆ ของประโยค แล้วบอกการเกี่ยวข้องของประโยคและคำต่าง ๆ ในประโยคนั้น ๆ. (ป., ส.).

Although, the conceptual use of the term (without the specific noun form as indicated by "ความ") as shown in this definition is limited to the grammatical context "(ไว)".

Another interesting point is that the newspapers almost exclusively use the American, rather than the British, form of using double quotation marks (inverted commas) (") in outside quotes and single marks (') in inside quotes. I would have thought that the Thais would have followed the British convention. In addition, I have seen many occasions where the Thai newspapers have used double quotes in place of an apostrophe to indicate the English possessive or contractions.

In conclusion, I cannot explain why Ajarn Nithi uses the double inverted commas in this context except to note his consistency. Thanks for making note of this issue.

[tgeezer]

Thanks to both of you.

We are a long way from the original translation though. Maybe the answer lies in the fact that ความสัมพันธ์ is always inside inverted commas must mean something and the original post gives a clue I think. It says that ควสมสัทพันธ์ is more important than the result then gives a concrete example that เหตุใดเราจึงรู้ is more important than the result. I jump to the conclusion that the two are equal, that เหตุใดเราจึงรู้ is a result of ความสัมพันธ์ that ความสัมพันธ์ is not to be taken literally so it would not be illogical to highlight it. The example above backs this up because now it refers to the fact that ความสัมพันธ์ takes us to a deeper knowledge, the reason that the leaves are green. So how to translate ความสัมพันธ์ ?

[DavidHouston]

Geezer,

The following is an example of the use of the term "ตามความสัมพันธ์" from the Dictionary of Dharma". See if you can figure out what English word or words in the dictionary translation reflect the Thai term "ตามความสัมพันธ์":

________________________________

โยนิโสมนสิการ: การใช้ความคิดถูกวิธี คือ การทำในใจโดยแยบคาย มองสิ่งทั้งหลายด้วยความคิดพิจารณาสืบค้นถึงต้นเค้า สาวหาเหตุผลจนตลอดสาย แยกแยะออกพิเคราะห์ดูด้วยปัญญาที่คิดเป็นระเบียบและโดยอุบายวิธี ให้เห็นสิ่งนั้นๆ หรือปัญหานั้นๆ ตามสภาวะและตามความสัมพันธ์แห่งเหตุปัจจัย —

Yonisomanasikàra: reasoned attention; systematic attention; analytical thinking; critical reflection; thinking in terms of specific conditionality; thinking by way of causal relations or by way of problem solving

____________________________

It might be this usage in the Buddhist context, which Ajarn Nithi is bringing to his more general context, that causes him to use the quotation marks.

Edited March 16, 2009 by DavidHouston

[tgeezer]

Geezer,

The following is an example of the use of the term "ตามความสัมพันธ์" from the Dictionary of Dharma". See if you can figure out what English word or words in the dictionary translation reflect the Thai term "ตามความสัมพันธ์":

________________________________

โยนิโสมนสิการ: การใช้ความคิดถูกวิธี คือ การทำในใจโดยแยบคาย มองสิ่งทั้งหลายด้วยความคิดพิจารณาสืบค้นถึงต้นเค้า สาวหาเหตุผลจนตลอดสาย แยกแยะออกพิเคราะห์ดูด้วยปัญญาที่คิดเป็นระเบียบและโดยอุบายวิธี ให้เห็นสิ่งนั้นๆ หรือปัญหานั้นๆ ตามสภาวะและตามความสัมพันธ์แห่งเหตุปัจจัย —

It might be this usage in the Buddhist context, which Ajarn Nithi is bringing to his more general context, that causes him to use the quotation marks.

could be I suppose but here it has a ความหมานโดยตรง and in the other example it is ความหมายโดยนัย I think.

The dictionary translation does nothing for me, I am a simple man; it is probably good for the venerable gentleman's colleagues, however.

Yonisomanasikara: correct thinking is being ingenious in the mind, looking at things critically to reach the fundemental structure, "draw out the string all the way to the end", disassemble the research and look at it systematically, allow yourself to see the things or the problems according to the conditions and according to the relationship between the contributing factors.

I am hoping that using the literal translation (in red) is ok, I am only learning and I know it is an English interpretation not Thai.

[DavidHouston]

Knowing how much you like "-" why is ความสัมพันธ์ between them?

Not sure if this was a rhetorical question to which you already know the answer?

If it was not, then " " citation marks are often used in Thai newspaper texts for emphasis, where English would typically use italics or bold text. I also found this usage odd at first.

If I cite one more somewhat puzzling set of examples of quotation marks in a Thai newspaper article:

จนอังกฤษถอนวีซ่า ญี่ปุ่น ก็ห้ามเข้าประเทศ "ฮ่องกง" ที่เคยเป็นฐานที่มั่นหลักของ "ทักษิณ" รองจาก "ดูไบ" ก็เริ่มถูกบีบหนักขึ้นเรื่อยๆ จนเขาต้องยกเลิกการปาฐกถาด้วยตัวเอง

"So, England withdrew his visa; Japan refused his entry; and, Hong Kong which used to be Thaksin's base of operations, second only to Dubai, has increased pressure on him. In the end, he ceased broadcasting his lectures on his own volition."

Note the use of quotations for "ฮ่องกง", "ทักษิณ", and "ดูไบ". Could it be that the names of the countries are in quotes because neither is the official name of the geographic entity and "Thaksin" is in quotes because the name alone lacks the police rank title. The latter seems to be a compromise between treating Thaksin with full honors, on the one hand, and disrespecting him, on the other.

Any thoughts?

[meadish_sweetball]

To be honest I am not sure what the reasons are in this case. I probably should not have said 'at first' as I still find this puzzling.

[aanon]

Geezer,

The following is an example of the use of the term "ตามความสัมพันธ์" from the Dictionary of Dharma". See if you can figure out what English word or words in the dictionary translation reflect the Thai term "ตามความสัมพันธ์":

________________________________

โยนิโสมนสิการ: การใช้ความคิดถูกวิธี คือ การทำในใจโดยแยบคาย มองสิ่งทั้งหลายด้วยความคิดพิจารณาสืบค้นถึงต้นเค้า สาวหาเหตุผลจนตลอดสาย แยกแยะออกพิเคราะห์ดูด้วยปัญญาที่คิดเป็นระเบียบและโดยอุบายวิธี ให้เห็นสิ่งนั้นๆ หรือปัญหานั้นๆ ตามสภาวะและตามความสัมพันธ์แห่งเหตุปัจจัย —

Yonisomanasikàra: reasoned attention; systematic attention; analytical thinking; critical reflection; thinking in terms of specific conditionality; thinking by way of causal relations or by way of problem solving

____________________________

It might be this usage in the Buddhist context, which Ajarn Nithi is bringing to his more general context, that causes him to use the quotation marks.

david, not sure if you're actually asking a question here. just in case, ความสัมพันธ์แห่งเหตุปัจจัย corresponds to 'causal relations' here.

[DavidHouston]

Excellent, Khun Aanon.

Could you go a bit further and identify each of the technical Buddhist terms in this sentence with its English equivalent in the translation?

Thanks.

[aanon]

david,

I don't think it's a direct translation and I'm also not a specialist in buddhist terms in either language, so let me just give you my layman's translation and you can try seeing where the ideas line up.

โยนิโสมนสิการ: การใช้ความคิดถูกวิธี คือ การทำในใจโดยแยบคาย

Yonisomanasikàra: using thought in the correct way, namely using penetrating attention;

มองสิ่งทั้งหลายด้วยความคิดพิจารณาสืบค้นถึงต้นเค้า สาวหาเหตุผลจนตลอดสาย

looking at all things with an analytical mind to seek out their origin; following the chain of causality to its end;

แยกแยะออกพิเคราะห์ดูด้วยปัญญาที่คิดเป็นระเบียบและโดยอุบายวิธี

breaking down and analysing [things] with an orderly intellect and using [mental] devices

ให้เห็นสิ่งนั้นๆ หรือปัญหานั้นๆ ตามสภาวะและตามความสัมพันธ์แห่งเหตุปัจจัย —

to see each particular thing or problem according to its nature and in terms of causal relations.

hope that helps. corrections welcome, of course.

Edited March 19, 2009 by aanon

[DavidHouston]

โยนิโสมนสิการ: การใช้ความคิดถูกวิธี คือ การทำในใจโดยแยบคาย

Yonisomanasikàra: using thought in the correct way, namely using penetrating attention;

Thank you, Khun Aanon.

I had not encountered the word แยบคาย before and the term is not in Lexitron. It does show up in the RID and DS, however. Now that we are back in Houston, I have my 1984 edition of So Sethaputra's "New Model Thai-English Dictionary". Volume II does contain the term "แยบคาย" defined as "vi. intriguing, interesting, smart, clever". Examples include " เธอแต่งตัวแยบคาย – She dresses smartly." and " อุบายของเขาแยบคาย – His ruse is clever."

Lexitron does have a similar word, "แยบยล": "แยบยล [ADJ] clever; smart; ingenious Syn. เข้าที, เหมาะสม" and the RID has it as "เข้าที, เหมาะกับเหตุผล." The meanings of these words must have migrated over time.

BTW, has anyone seen the So Sethaputra "Thai-English Dictionary" sold in Thailand in a recent incarnation? One can find the English-Thai version, I believe published by a relative, in bookstores but I have not been able to find the Thai-English version in print. However, ThaiSoftware does publish the Thi-English version on a CD. See http://www.dcothai.com/product_info.php?products_id=465 . I do not know the publication date.

Thanks again for your efforts, Khun Aanon.

Edited March 19, 2009 by DavidHouston