V V Success

[Phil_ne_uk]

I went to Thailand on the 25th December 2004 to visit my girlfriend, Keetapat, for xmas & the new year, to accompany her while reapplying for a visitor’s visa for the UK. After three hours sleep we arrived at the embassy at 4.10am on the Wednesday 29th December, only to discover that the embassy was closed due to the terrible disaster. We were informed that the embassy would re-open on Tuesday 4th January so we went to Pattaya to stay while we waited. I telephoned the embassy on the Monday to confirm that the embassy would be open on the Tuesday and was told that it would not be open until the Wednesday 5th. On the Tuesday I telephoned again to confirm that the embassy would be open on the Wednesday and was then told that the embassy was only open for emergencies. I had to return to the UK on the 6th January 2005. Keetapat went back yesterday 17th to apply again on her own. They were not clear about my online statement from my building society, so Keetapat phoned me at 3.00am so I could email it to Preecha (“the old man”) after a lot of hassle when he could not print it out, I finally faxed it to him. Keetapat went back to the embassy, it was about 1.00pm by now and success Keetapat was given her v v. better late than never I guess!

One problem, we wrote 6 months on the application form, but Keetapat told the eco she wanted a v v for 2 months. When issuing the v v, the Thai woman eco told Keetapat that she must return to Thailand after 2 months or she may not be given a visa again in the future! However, the visa paper inside the passport states from 17/1/05 – 17/7/05 and also reads 180 days. My question is, does she HAVE to return after 2 months when the visa states 180 days and the dates are for 6 months? I just read on a post that someone said that his girlfriend was given a 6 month visa but made to sign a letter stating that she would stay no longer than 3 months.”

Keetapat did not say anything about having to sign anything so I do not think she was made to do so.

Thanks to those who helped and advised me back in October 04

Cheers

Phil & Keetapat

[chonabot]

Firstly well done mate!

Secondly......Scouse!!!!!!

IMO if your gf stays longer than the 2 months she will have a problem when the next application takes place , as she has not overstayed the visa but broken her word in the interview ( ie wanting a 2 month stay)

It's possible it may help if you provide information/evidence that prevented her from returning within that given window.

i.e a family drama of sorts.

But Mr Scouse will no doubt be more on the ball.

Edited January 17, 2005 by chonabot

[the scouser]

Phil,

Well done. On occasions perseverance does pay off.

Every visitor to the UK is automatically granted entry for 6 months even though they may not intend to stay for that length of time. To answer your question, your g/f is fully entitled to remain in the UK for the 6 months but, as Chonabot wrote, should she seek another visit visa the officer will enquire why she stayed longer than she initially said she would. Depending upon how believable her answer is, it is possible, but by no means a certainty, that the application would be refused. This would be just one factor of many that the visa officer would assess in judging any subsequent application.

Now that your g/f has got one visa, providing she abides by its conditions the process of getting another one will be so much easier. So, basically, she either returns to Thailand after 2 months, keeping her good reputation with the embassy intact and perhaps then reapplying after 2/3 months or she stays for the full hit and has to explain herself if she seeks another one. To be honest, most visa officers will look more kindly upon applications from those who spend 2 months in the UK 3 times a year than someone who stays 6 months in one stretch. Anyway, that's the score. What your g/f does is her/your call.

Cheers,

Scouse.

PS. If she tries to pressurises you into letting her work, don't do it. The chances of her getting caught are slim but sod's law dictates that it'll happen. If she were to be nabbed then she'll be well and truly ferked in terms of repeat visas.

[Phil_ne_uk]

Thanks for that lads. I should have explained a bit more. My house should be sold in about 6 weeks, however it could be delayed and take up to 12 weeks, so obviously we want to return to los together where we intend to live when my house is sold. So if the sale takes longer, naturally I want her to go back to los with me. It was suggested that when she gets here that I email the embassy to explain that my house sale is taking maybe 1 month longer to cmplete so she will return after say,,, 3 months with me. Does that sound ok?

Cheers

Phil

[the scouser]

As your g/f is entitled to stay for 6 months you don't really need to tell the embassy at this point. She can just stay until your house is sold unless, of course, it takes longer than 6 months. Should she need to apply for another visit visa in the future, you can then explain the circumstances to the visa officer.

Scouse.

[Thaddeus]

That information may be a little out of date now Scouse.... there have been a couple of incidents recently (probably more than a couple, but I can only say what I know) where Thais have been made to sign an undertaking not to stay in the UK any longer than 2 or 3 months.

Phil is not 100% sure if his gf has been made to sign one and it is now residing in her Passport... if she has he can write to the Embassy after she has arrived in the UK and 'tell the truth' about the delayed house sale... he should still do that anyway, as I am sure that something will be on record about it.

P.S.... printing letters is obviously cheaper than getting new stamps made

[Phil_ne_uk]

Thaddeus, you said quote,

“as I am sure that something will be on record about it.”

Did you mean something on record about her being told to return in 2 months? Or about my house sale?

Phil

[Thaddeus]

About her return Phil

Don't stress about the house

[the scouser]

That information may be a little out of date now Scouse.... there have been a couple of incidents recently (probably more than a couple, but I can only say what I know) where Thais have been made to sign an undertaking not to stay in the UK any longer than 2 or 3 months.

Phil is not 100% sure if his gf has been made to sign one and it is now residing in her Passport... if she has he can write to the Embassy after she has arrived in the UK and 'tell the truth' about the delayed house sale... he should still do that anyway, as I am sure that something will be on record about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Such declarations are not worth the paper they're written on and are totally legally unenforceable. Believe it or not, Libyans used to have to sign such documents to the effect that they promised not to commit any terrorist act whilst in the UK.

Under immigration law the "intent" is everything. It's easy enough to say when the visa was sought a 2-month visit was intended, however, having arrived in the UK x then happened so the plans changed. Furthermore, the immigration rules, which are legally enforceable, stipulate that a visitor who qualifies for entry will be granted 6 months: full stop. Moreover, should Phil contact the embassy they'll just think, "Why's he telling us this?"

Scouse.

[Thaddeus]

From the UK Visas website

" How long can I stay?

A:  The last day on which you may enter or be in the UK is the expiry date on the visa. For

visitors this is normally a maximum of six months. "

Important word there.... 'normally' .... yes, that means that it could go either way... yet again, I can only say what I know, people have been made to sign an undertaking to stay for a shorter period.

Is this legally enforcable? .... I don't know.... but I wouldn't like to be the test-case.

The best course of action for Phil, is to find out when his gf gets to the UK if there is anything stamped or stapled to her Passport and then inform them if there is likely to be an overstay a short while before it happens.

Why make life hard by trying to second guess the legal issues, it just isn't worth it.

Edited January 17, 2005 by Thaddeus

[the scouser]

There will be no test case. Purely and simply Phil's g/f has been given leave to enter for 6 months. This cannot be revoked unless it can be proven that she lied or misrepresented the facts when she applied for the visa. It the visa officer wanted to limit her leave he would not get her to sign a piece of paper but, rather, limit the validity of the visa. However, they need good reason to do this. As I said before, writing as an ex-immigration officer and visa officer, the declarations that some people are asked to sign promising to stay only for the time stipulated at interview CANNOT be enforced. Ultimately, there is no provision in immigration law for a visa officer or immigration officer to insist upon them.

Additionally, you refer to a likely overstay when none would occur. She can lawfully stay in the UK for 6 months without risk of penalty. The only judgment going to be made upon her if she stays longer than the 2 months is if she applies for another visa. Even then the fact that she would have broken her "promise" does not mean that a subsequent application would be refused.

Scouse.

[Thaddeus]

Up to you.

But when exactly did you become an Ex-immigration Officer ..... kept up to date recently?

[the scouser]

When I ceased to be an immigration officer is irrelevant. I am still better placed to give advice than someone who appears to have little grounding in the subject.

If you can prove me wrong I'll be the first to buy you a pint. But I think it'll be a long wait.

Scouse.

[Thaddeus]

With all due respect.

On the contrary .... it's very relevant ... the very crux of this conversation as it has now dissolved into something other than a little bit of advice to a member in need depends upon it.

Are you currently an immigration officer..... no

Are you a lawyer or barrister or of similar standing .... just a guess, but probably not

Are you the Home Secretary ... possibly

If you can state 100% guaranteed that this member will have no problems at all in any way shape or form then feel free to make comments like that.

Otherwise... I'll have a Beer Chang please ..... ta

Sorry .... should have started this one 'with all due respect' ... edited as such.

P.S. appearances can be so deceptive can't they

Edited January 17, 2005 by Thaddeus

[dr_Pat_Pong]

When I ceased to be an immigration officer is irrelevant. I am still better placed to give advice than someone who appears to have little grounding in the subject.

If you can prove me wrong I'll be the first to buy you a pint. But I think it'll be a long wait.

Scouse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A very long wait indeed. There's the risk of dehydration in the waiting.

[Thaddeus]

S'ok

I have a supply of liquid while I wait.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

S'ok

I have a supply of liquid while I wait.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a lot of us here that will take a weak shandy on a hot day That is why we moved here in the first place : it is always warm

[the scouser]

Sorry chaps it's going to be a long wait....

If you can state 100% guaranteed that this member will have no problems at all in any way shape or form then feel free to make comments like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can say 100% that a visa applicant who signs a declaration stating that he/she will stay in the UK for less than 6 months is not bound by it when then issued a visa granting leave to enter for 6 months. Difficulties may only arise if a repeat application is subsequently made and the visa officer enquires why the terms of the declaration were not abided by.

The reason? From time to time the Home Secretary may under sect. 3(2) of the Immigration Act 1971 (as amended) present to Parliament a statement (of changes) pertaining to the immigration rules; i.e. what is contained in the immigration rules is law in terms of governing people's stay in the UK. Paragraph 42 of the current rules states:-

42. A person seeking leave to enter to the United Kingdom as a visitor may be admitted for a period not exceeding 6 months, subject to a condition prohibiting employment, provided the Immigration Officer is satisfied that each of the requirements of paragraph 41 is met.

Generally, individuals seeking leave to enter the UK in this capacity are automatically granted the full 6 months irrespective of how long they tell the visa officer/immigration officer they intend to stay, as is the case with the OP's g/f. It is possible for the visa officer/immigration officer to grant leave for a shorter period but they must have good reason for doing so. That is why the visa officer assessing the OP's g/f's application got her to promise to return to Thailand after 2 months rather than just granting her entry for 2 months.

A minority of British High/Commissions/Embassies ask that the applicant, where a degree of doubt exists but insufficient for the visa officer to refuse the application, signs a declaration to the effect that although granted entry for 6 months they will only remain for the period as stated by them. THERE IS NO PROVISION IN THE IMMIGRATION RULES FOR THEM TO DO THIS! Therefore, legally, that little chitty is worthless.

Paragraph 321 of the immigration rules sets out the circumstances in which a visa can be overturned by an immigration officer upon entry. It is not possible to refuse entry to someone on the basis that they told the visa officer they would stay in the UK for only 2 months but now wish to stay for 6 when it is the competent authority itself which has granted leave for 6 months.

So Thaddy, my old mate, if you can find a provision in any immigration act that makes the declarations legally enforceable then the cold Chang is yours. But it's not there.

If you wish to discuss this matter further I'll be in Rigby's on Dale Street/Water Street (can never remember which) from 17:30 tonight. Also in attendance will be half of Liverpool immigration office. Perhaps you'd believe it from the horse's mouth.

Scouse.

Edited January 20, 2005 by the scouser

[paully]

^ Scouse, a quick query if I may. If you are granted a visitor's visa to the UK, can you stay in the UK for 6 months from the date of entry to the UK or is it 6 months from the date the visa was granted by the Embassy abroad?

[Thaddeus]

You have to be out of the UK before the visa expires i.e. the expire date on the stamp in the Passport placed there by The Embassy.... not 6 months from the date you enter the UK.

If you arrive the day before it expires you only need to book one night in a hotel

Edited January 21, 2005 by Thaddeus

[Thaddeus]

When I ceased to be an immigration officer is irrelevant. I am still better placed to give advice than someone who appears to have little grounding in the subject.

If you can prove me wrong I'll be the first to buy you a pint. But I think it'll be a long wait.

Scouse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At no point during this thread did I state there were any enforceable legal implications, or my ability with regards to handling those suggested or implied implications.... in fact I stayed well away from them by saying "I don't know" ... I only suggested that there may be problems for future visa applications if something was signed by the applicant for a 6 month visa to visit the UK indicating that the duration was going to be shorter than six months.

The following is a reply to an e-mail sent in response to this question. Names removed, obviously

1. If your g/f or b/f is made to sign a letter of undertaking to return the visa will have an undertaking stamp accross the top of it.

2. The visa is only valid for the length of time as stated in the letter.Although legally once in the Uk you can stay for the duration of the visa, it would be look bad for future applications.

3. If the letter of undertaking is abided by, then the only the amount of time used on the visa will count.

4. If the letter of undertaking is abided by this will be very positive for future applications.

5. A letter of undertaking to return is only issued whem there is some doubt in the eco's mind as to the application even when all the evidence gives no reason for doubt.

6. Upon the next application the letter will be removed from the passport and entry / exit stamps will be checked to make sure the applicant has not overstayed.

I didn't claim that it was enforceable legally, I just asked if it could cause problems or not ...... apparently it can.

Chang please

[the scouser]

I only suggested that there may be problems  for future visa applications if something was signed by the applicant for a 6 month visa to visit the UK indicating that the duration was going to be shorter than six months.

1. If your g/f or b/f is made to sign a letter of undertaking to return the visa will have an undertaking stamp accross the top of it.

2. The visa is only valid for the length of time as stated in the letter.Although legally once in the Uk you can stay for the duration of the visa, it would be look bad for future applications.

3. If the letter of undertaking is abided by, then the only the amount of time used on the visa will count.

4. If the letter of undertaking is abided by this will be very positive for future applications.

5. A letter of undertaking to return is only issued whem there is some doubt in the eco's mind as to the application even when all the evidence gives no reason for doubt.

6. Upon the next application the letter will be removed from the passport and entry / exit stamps will be checked to make sure the applicant has not overstayed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Er, which is what I said in my original post. Did you read it?

To answer your question, your g/f is fully entitled to remain in the UK for the 6 months but, as Chonabot wrote, should she seek another visit visa the officer will enquire why she stayed longer than she initially said she would. Depending upon how believable her answer is, it is possible, but by no means a certainty, that the application would be refused.

Now that your g/f has got one visa, providing she abides by its conditions the process of getting another one will be so much easier. So, basically, she either returns to Thailand after 2 months, keeping her good reputation with the embassy intact and perhaps then reapplying after 2/3 months or she stays for the full hit and has to explain herself if she seeks another one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scouse

[the scouser]

That information may be a little out of date now Scouse.... there have been a couple of incidents recently (probably more than a couple, but I can only say what I know) where Thais have been made to sign an undertaking not to stay in the UK any longer than 2 or 3 months.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't deny that such undertakings exist but, rather, legally they're not worth the paper they're written on. It would seem that the response you've elicited from your anonymous source confirms what I said as being current.

Scouse.

[Phil_ne_uk]

Sorry its taken so long to reply but just to confirm that there is no attached undertaking in my girlfriends passport stating that she must return within 2 months.

It states the visa is from 17/1/05 – 17/7/05 also states for 180 days.

So should we just ignore what she was verbally told about this 2 month lark?

Cheers

Phil

[the scouser]

Yep.

Scouse.

[bkk_mike]

If it's any help, five years ago (when we lived in the UK), my mother-in-law signed one of those declarations stamped in the passport saying she was only going for a couple of months.

However, my wife persuaded her that since her visa was for 6 months, that she could stay for 6 months. (which she could - definitely not an issue.) The reason my wife wanted her to stay was to help with the new baby (which is why my mother-in-law was visiting...)

To cut a long story short - she did get a visa the next time she applied, but it was a shortened visa (2 months if I remember correctly for a (one month visit request, not a standard 6-month visa), and we had to explain the circumstances of her staying longer than she'd requested on the first trip. (Child's UK passport was very useful for this as proof of child being born during the earlier trip).

It possibly also helped that family visit is a visa type which is appealable (unlike a standard tourist visa), so the staff at the embassy have to be certain before turning one down.

After that second trip, where she returned on the dates she'd said in the application, we've had no more problems at interview. (i.e. She currently has a multi-entry tourist visa valid for 2 years). I think the UK is still a bit paranoid though - first trip to the US, she got a 10 year multi-entry visa with nothing more than the standard window interview.

Personally, if she has told the embassy two months, I would recommend sticking to it if you can. Simply because it will make the next application easier.

Edited February 2, 2005 by bkk_mike