Electric Cars - Action Underway

[klikster]

I just ran across this today and it seems to be a well-conceived approach with some political, financial and intellectual muscle behind it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/technolo...wanted=1&em

This could be an excellent approach for Thailand. Purpose-built cars and motorcycles rather than imports. The model might be a bit difficult at first, but if it was adapted, it could make a significant contribution to air quality in BKK, C'mai and a few other places.

There would also likely be excellent aftermarket opportunity for fake noisy exhausts.

[stingray]

I just ran across this today and it seems to be a well-conceived approach with some political, financial and intellectual muscle behind it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/technolo...wanted=1&em

This could be an excellent approach for Thailand. Purpose-built cars and motorcycles rather than imports. The model might be a bit difficult at first, but if it was adapted, it could make a significant contribution to air quality in BKK, C'mai and a few other places.

There would also likely be excellent aftermarket opportunity for fake noisy exhausts.

Typical American bull ''' t. How this gonna work? They gonna switch batteries and you pay for the miles. How are you sure they change your good battery against a bad one, wich is fully charged, but give up after 20 miles? Welcome the "battery mafia". BTW, what's gopnna change? You allways depend on someone. Now we depend on Oil companies, and get charged with high fuel taxes from the goverment. With electric cars, we depend on Power companies and get surely high taxed again by the goverment. Were is there any difference. Why no Hybrid and Hydrogen Cars with the normal combustion engine, like BMW had one already 4 years ago? Because every one could "fabricate" their own fuel. Not depend on Power-, Oil Companies and goverment. But there is the thing: now they complain about cars, misleading and using green parties to change things, order to manufactor fuel efficient and electric cars, in another way they want more and more peaple drive cars, not less. State gets more money, Police give more and more tickets, etc. Doesn't matter what you drive, Benzine, Diesel, LPG or Electric Power. They find allways a way to suck your cash away.

[BSJ]

Well, Stingray has pointed out some negative aspects, but we must look at it in a balanced way. At the moment we are in the early stages of what will be a very long transition...one that may take 50 years!

Some mistakes will be made, big ones and little ones. But in the end we end up with a reliable system of private transport that causes less problems. Hopefully that will be good for everyone.

[PeaceBlondie]

It will only take a few trillion dollars - maybe 897 trillion - and nowadays that is spare change. Way too big an idea, way too large of infrastructure, etc. Maybe in 50 years. I drove an electric car in 1975. Basically it was a golf cart licensed for the highway. 33 years later....still 50 years away. Of course, I may be wrong.

[Tywais]

Typical American bull ''' t.

Jumping the gun on that one. Shai Agassi is Israeli and the initiative started in Israel, so what does America have to do with it other then a couple of states have been contacted by him.

[khundon]

It will NEVER happen. Dream on.

[klikster]

Typical American bull ''' t.

Jumping the gun on that one. Shai Agassi is Israeli and the initiative started in Israel, so what does America have to do with it other then a couple of states have been contacted by him.

You beat me to it Tywais. Also, if someone reads the article before letting their knee jerk too hard, maybe they will see that governments are backing / cooperating with this plan.

How are you sure they change your good battery against a bad one, wich is fully charged, but give up after 20 miles?

Because you don't buy or own the battery. They don't benefit at all from a bad or undercharged battery. You pay for miles, not battery life.

But you have already shown that you didn't read the article.

It will NEVER happen. Dream on.

Never say never. It has already started. Stop dreaming and open your eyes.

[JimsKnight]

I just ran across this today and it seems to be a well-conceived approach with some political, financial and intellectual muscle behind it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/technolo...wanted=1&em

This could be an excellent approach for Thailand. Purpose-built cars and motorcycles rather than imports. The model might be a bit difficult at first, but if it was adapted, it could make a significant contribution to air quality in BKK, C'mai and a few other places.

There would also likely be excellent aftermarket opportunity for fake noisy exhausts.

Typical American bull ''' t. How this gonna work? They gonna switch batteries and you pay for the miles. How are you sure they change your good battery against a bad one, wich is fully charged, but give up after 20 miles? Welcome the "battery mafia". BTW, what's gopnna change? You allways depend on someone. Now we depend on Oil companies, and get charged with high fuel taxes from the goverment. With electric cars, we depend on Power companies and get surely high taxed again by the goverment. Were is there any difference. Why no Hybrid and Hydrogen Cars with the normal combustion engine, like BMW had one already 4 years ago? Because every one could "fabricate" their own fuel. Not depend on Power-, Oil Companies and goverment. But there is the thing: now they complain about cars, misleading and using green parties to change things, order to manufactor fuel efficient and electric cars, in another way they want more and more peaple drive cars, not less. State gets more money, Police give more and more tickets, etc. Doesn't matter what you drive, Benzine, Diesel, LPG or Electric Power. They find allways a way to suck your cash away.

I hear what you're saying. But the battery change deal is for folks who are going long-distance and don't carry a spare 5 sets of batterys in the trunk.

For commuters you'll be able to charge up you're own battery at home anyway.

Still, I do think relying on someone else in that way is a bit of a kick in the teeth.

The sooner water-powered cars hit the big time the better. Mind you that could cause water shortages, so maybe not!

[stingray]

No, i read the article. Bot you never worked in the practical field as a electircal engineer. Batterie life you can't control. today there are good, tomorrow they can fail immidently. Of corse you not pay for the batterie, But for example: How many used cell phones or second hand power tools have good batteries? Again you don't pay for the car battery, but how you feel when you drive outside city and your power is gone, because bad battery? Not think about money. Think about hassles, loosing time, losing meeting, or business. BTW. i'm not a anerican hater, not at all. I even drive a american car here in Thailand. I even think the US WAS the greatest country in the world 40 years ago, and i prefore to buy a item "made in USA, than "made in china". I always dreamed to living in Florida, was in Hawaii instead. But today not anymore. Because, so many americans are paranoid today, therefore we have to all this problems in the world. Bush Wars, bad economy, etc. It's start all overthere, like a cancer because Bush's Paranoidism, and because peaple there want have anything they can't afford. Everyone must have a high education, noone want work with their hands overthere, only sit in a nice office and dream about big bonuses. Almost everyone want have a mortage, need their own house (i never had my own house), new cars, etc what they can't afford. Last time when i was there the GM offered on Radio comercials to reward customers with 5'000 USD cash, if they sign a new leasing contract on a new car. I ask you: Who pays the 5 grand in cash? What stu... idea? Answer: of corse the customer, because the five grand get involved in the next 4 years dowpayment. So basicly the car cost 5 grand more i guess. I can't beleve that. BTW i'm Swiss Citizen and now the US blackmail us swiss citizens about the bank secret, wich is in our country and our laws. America want control everything, like the germans 60 years ago.

Sorry to get of topic! Of corse we need alternative fuel, because i'm agree we should not depend on oil but we should net depent on Power either. If we using power, so we have to biuld many nuclear power stations, wich the f;; greens not agree again. So why not developping and using hidrogen cars, or at least Hybrid cars? There should be no water shortages, because we can use salt water.

[klikster]

I hear what you're saying. But the battery change deal is for folks who are going long-distance and don't carry a spare 5 sets of batterys in the trunk.

For commuters you'll be able to charge up you're own battery at home anyway.

Still, I do think relying on someone else in that way is a bit of a kick in the teeth.

The sooner water-powered cars hit the big time the better. Mind you that could cause water shortages, so maybe not!

Reliance on "them", be they big oil, refiners, LPG processors, auto manufacturers, battery makers, chemical companies, etc, is a fact of life for those of us who can't or won't maintain their own technology or use human /animal power.

The networks undertaken by Mr Agassi's group is one approach to transportation. It does not preclude parallel efforts or other technologies.

If nothing else, imagine how many gasoline tankers would disappear from the highways by a major shift from gasoline / diesel to electricity.

By water powered cars, I assume that you are talking hydrogen? If so, some energy source must power the extraction / production of hydrogen. I believe the processes are either electrolysis or chemical reaction.

BTW, I believe hydrogen / fuel cell technology is a fantastic approach. But just as with any mass produced technology, individuals can't make it happen. Someone has to build reliable cars, reliable fuel cells, fueling stations, repair stations, etc.

If the Thai government would get its collective head out of its backside, Thailand could develop, use and export this technology as well. Here is some info on hydrogen vehicles. This particular link is to the hydrogen highway

On another approach, I wonder how much cottage industry is devoted to converting cooking oils to diesel fuel? The process is "relatively" simple. That seem a very good opportunity in this economic climate. I wonder if there is any licensing requirement for such an operation?

Of corse we need alternative fuel, because i'm agree we should not depend on oil but we should net depent on Power either. If we using power, so we have to biuld many nuclear power stations, wich the f;; greens not agree again. So why not developping and using hidrogen cars, or at least Hybrid cars? There should be no water shortages, because we can use salt water.

This quote would seem to suggest that hydrogen fuels require no [electrical] "Power"? Maybe you can explain how the hydrogen is extracted without using energy?

As far as "Bot you never worked in the practical field as a electircal engineer." I'll wager that I was building circuits (late 50's) before you were .. first as a hobbyist and later as an electronics technician.

[stingray]

If so, than you should know that you can't switching batteries around in electric cars. As i said, they would replace just batteries. sure you'll get a fully charged battery, but how you know it is good and keep the power or not. For example: I bought a used powerdrill once. I know what i bought, a used one, but i take the chances, because it was cheap. My mistake! When i tested the batteries in the shop they are ok. After fully charge of both batteries in my home i had power for the first 2 minutes. So after the second whole i drilled in a plastyc piece, the batterie was dead. Both of them. OK, i don''t know the batteries of a Electric car. Wet (old style car batteries) you can test. But i dry battery not. BTW i'm Auto Electrical Engineer.

[klikster]

If so, than you should know that you can't switching batteries around in electric cars.

No, I certainly don't know that, and that claim makes absolutely no sense to me. So you can switch batteries in a flashlight but not in a car that has been designed with switching batteries as a core feature?

[JimsKnight]

I actually build solar generators in my spare time. They consist of a deep-cell battery which, believe you me, lasts for eons under a charge-discharge cycle. So I do know a little bit about the battery groove my jumping friend

Battery technology is a constantly improving field.

[stingray]

I actually build solar generators in my spare time. They consist of a deep-cell battery which, believe you me, lasts for eons under a charge-discharge cycle. So I do know a little bit about the battery groove my jumping friend

Battery technology is a constantly improving field.

The battery in a flashlight are new. They try to switch the bateries in the cars are not new, they only new for the first user, after that they are like second hand. After a year they are f..k t. Anyway i.m not really care about this things, because i still prefore a gasoline car, more cubic inches, even better. It's more fun to me and i would "switch" my gasoline car to a electric one.

[PeaceBlondie]

Fine, good to hear battery technology is advancing. When will battery powered cars solve its many many problems like size, weight, power, recharging, and disposal? And after we convert the world's billions of cars to electric, how will we build the electric generating stations and dispose of the thermal and the nuclear waste?

[klikster]

I actually build solar generators in my spare time. They consist of a deep-cell battery which, believe you me, lasts for eons under a charge-discharge cycle. So I do know a little bit about the battery groove my jumping friend

Battery technology is a constantly improving field.

I'm not very knowledgable about batteries and technology and have not heard about this battery technology before.

"Second thing is, the batteries we're using are not lead-acid batteries. They're lithium iron phosphate. All within the 35 most common elements in nature. So they're not dangerous to the environment.

Three: They're consumed for a very, very long time. These batteries will last multiple generations. 20, 25 years."

There has also been a reported advance in rapid charge capability that is a couple of years away for production.

Scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) have developed a way to charge lithium ion batteries in seconds, instead of hours, that could open the door to smaller, faster-charging batteries for cell phones and other devices.

.. also

Besides electronic devices, the new material could allow faster-charging electric cars, although the charging speed would be limited by the amount of power that can be accessed over a home's connection with the power grid, MIT said.

The discovery will be outlined in a paper published in the March 12 issue of scientific journal Nature.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/0312...t-charging.html

JimsKnight, what are most of your solar generators used for? And what technologies do you use? Sorry if this part is too far off topic in the automotive forum. I love solar power, especially PV. Back in our high school (late 50's) "Radio - Electronics" class, we were able to cannibalize selenium rectifiers to make PV units that would at least register on a very sensitive volt meter.

[klikster]

Fine, good to hear battery technology is advancing. When will battery powered cars solve its many many problems like size, weight, power, recharging, and disposal? And after we convert the world's billions of cars to electric, how will we build the electric generating stations and dispose of the thermal and the nuclear waste?

PB, if you read all that article in my OP, as well as the articles referred to in the links I posted, you will see a great deal of progress that you many not realize has taken place.

[Sakeopete]

Hope it happens but have my doubts it will in my life time. First knowing how many economies rely on oil revenues I can't see progress happening without big oil buying out the technology (or shooting inventor) and making it disappear. Unless countries make fossil fuel vehicles illegal they will continue to give more bang for the buck and not too mention are more fun. Think of the Harley Davidson as an example, they are less sophisticated, less reliable and don't have near the performance of Japanese bike yet people value them far more than the Japanese cycles. Why? because they sound great look ok and you can't beat the rumble from the motors. Try that with an electric bike or car for that matter.

[stingray]

Hope it happens but have my doubts it will in my life time. First knowing how many economies rely on oil revenues I can't see progress happening without big oil buying out the technology (or shooting inventor) and making it disappear. Unless countries make fossil fuel vehicles illegal they will continue to give more bang for the buck and not too mention are more fun. Think of the Harley Davidson as an example, they are less sophisticated, less reliable and don't have near the performance of Japanese bike yet people value them far more than the Japanese cycles. Why? because they sound great look ok and you can't beat the rumble from the motors. Try that with an electric bike or car for that matter.

It's the same thing with my V8 engine. I need that blubbering sound from the separated twin tail pipes and i never change to a electric car. At least not in this life.

[PeaceBlondie]

Fine, good to hear battery technology is advancing. When will battery powered cars solve its many many problems like size, weight, power, recharging, and disposal? And after we convert the world's billions of cars to electric, how will we build the electric generating stations and dispose of the thermal and the nuclear waste?

PB, if you read all that article in my OP, as well as the articles referred to in the links I posted, you will see a great deal of progress that you many not realize has taken place.

Fine, I just finished all 4 pages of the link in your OP. This trillion-dollar portion hits me in the gut:

"SA: This is a massive integration project. And everything needs to happen roughly at the same time. In other words, the cars need to show up at the same time as batteries need to produce in scale. At the same time as the infrastructure's in the ground. All of that needs to be synchronized with beautiful software that runs inside the car. And then back-end software.

And then all this has to happen at a scale that is scary, to a certain degree. We need to be at 100,000 cars in 2011. About 100 million cars by 2016 to 2020. A thousand-times growth in production capacity and in installation capacity. There's never been a project of this magnitude in history."

Impossible, IMHO. But then, I am no auto engineer. Neither is the genius running the company.

[klikster]

Fine, good to hear battery technology is advancing. When will battery powered cars solve its many many problems like size, weight, power, recharging, and disposal? And after we convert the world's billions of cars to electric, how will we build the electric generating stations and dispose of the thermal and the nuclear waste?

PB, if you read all that article in my OP, as well as the articles referred to in the links I posted, you will see a great deal of progress that you many not realize has taken place.

Fine, I just finished all 4 pages of the link in your OP. This trillion-dollar portion hits me in the gut:

"SA: This is a massive integration project. And everything needs to happen roughly at the same time. In other words, the cars need to show up at the same time as batteries need to produce in scale. At the same time as the infrastructure's in the ground. All of that needs to be synchronized with beautiful software that runs inside the car. And then back-end software.

And then all this has to happen at a scale that is scary, to a certain degree. We need to be at 100,000 cars in 2011. About 100 million cars by 2016 to 2020. A thousand-times growth in production capacity and in installation capacity. There's never been a project of this magnitude in history."

Impossible, IMHO. But then, I am no auto engineer. Neither is the genius running the company.

This may well be a matter of focus. Automotive engineers focus on autos. Bean counters parse debits and credits.

Geniuses focus on solutions to problems.

[umurali2000]

Fine, good to hear battery technology is advancing. When will battery powered cars solve its many many problems like size, weight, power, recharging, and disposal? And after we convert the world's billions of cars to electric, how will we build the electric generating stations and dispose of the thermal and the nuclear waste?

PB, if you read all that article in my OP, as well as the articles referred to in the links I posted, you will see a great deal of progress that you many not realize has taken place.

Fine, I just finished all 4 pages of the link in your OP. This trillion-dollar portion hits me in the gut:

"SA: This is a massive integration project. And everything needs to happen roughly at the same time. In other words, the cars need to show up at the same time as batteries need to produce in scale. At the same time as the infrastructure's in the ground. All of that needs to be synchronized with beautiful software that runs inside the car. And then back-end software.

And then all this has to happen at a scale that is scary, to a certain degree. We need to be at 100,000 cars in 2011. About 100 million cars by 2016 to 2020. A thousand-times growth in production capacity and in installation capacity. There's never been a project of this magnitude in history."

Impossible, IMHO. But then, I am no auto engineer. Neither is the genius running the company.

This may well be a matter of focus. Automotive engineers focus on autos. Bean counters parse debits and credits.

Geniuses focus on solutions to problems.

It would be great to see electric cars around the world ...